| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2010 : 17:56:04
|
Poll Question:
Should the Atlanta Thrashers fire General Manager Don Waddell?
Irvine/prez.
|
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 18:03:26
|
There more I look at this recent trade made by the Atlanta Thrashers and New Jersey Devils, the more I feel the Thrashers got ripped off.
Even if Kovalchuk ends up solely a rental player, the return for him to Atlanta is just not what I believe would have been the best offer come trade deadline.
I believe Waddell should have traded Kovalchuk much earlier, if a deal could not have been reached. If he had not, like he did... he should have actually waited LONGER. I believe strongly he could have fetched much more from a team, almost last minute who feel they had a legit shot at the Cup, with a guy like Kovalchuk on the roster.
What did they actually get?
They got:
(at best) 4th defencemen in Oduya
A prospect who has shot confidence (not scored in 13 games), that had a chance to play on all NJ lines (including with Parise) but still struggled some. Will he be good? Perhaps. But it will take a few years if he does develop properly.
They get a guy in Cormier, who in two-three years time my be a solid 3rd-4th line guy, who kills penalites. (kills them well, but a 3rd-4th liner none the less). A grinder/checker.
And they get a 1st round pick, with about a 25% will actually become a fulltime NHL'er.
The Devil's get?
A top 10 forward in the NHL, who is as a dynamic, legitmate 50 goal scorer.
An offensive defensemen in Salmela, who may work out nicely in New Jersey. Especially, while they have some defensive injuries.
When you look back on Waddell's history, mainly the Hossa & Kovalchuk deals... I think it's time.
Fired.
Irvine/prez. |
 |
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 22:45:08
|
Actually, great reasoning irvine, it seemed like the stuff that he said about Kovy may have been true, but spun to make it shine as good as possible on himself as a GM losing a star player, again...Waddell must be starting to feel he is treading water as Thrashers GM.
Heatley, Hossa, Kovalchuk. Three strikes and you're out. |
Edited by - polishexpress on 02/06/2010 23:27:54 |
|
|
|
Wendy_Clark
Top Prospect
1 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 04:36:50
|
Absolutely he should be fired. He has been with this team too long and had too many high draft picks and still be this bad. He should be fired and the team should be moved to downtown Toronto.
Another team wouldn't hurt the Leafs or Buffalo and would create a lot of excitement in the city. As many leaf fans as there is in To there is just as many that hate them. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 08:03:21
|
Yeah i actually agreed with Mike Milbury (that doesn't happen that often) on HNIC last night and his take on how the Thrashers handled the whole Ilya Kovalchuk situation, which Irvine pretty much summed up.
They should of put their best offer on the table last summer, and if Kovalchuk wouldn't sign, then trade him while he still has a full season left on his contract. As it stands now, no i don't really like what they got in return. None of the 3 current players they got in return will ever be star players IMO. Oduya will never be a top pairing blueliner, Cormier's future is as a checking forward, and while Bergfors obviously has some upside, and he can score as he showed last night, but i still don't think he'll ever develop into an impact forward. Then of course theres the 1st round pick, which will be about 25th overall.
I dunno, if i was a Thrashers fan i would of expected to get a least 1 can't miss prospect in return. I know from what i read the Flyers weren't willling to part with either Giroux or Van Riemsdyk, the Rangers wouldn't part with Staal, the Blues wouldn't part with Oshie, etc. But what if they would of decided to trade him last summer?? |
Edited by - ryan93 on 02/07/2010 08:04:05 |
|
|
|
Thrasher17
Top Prospect
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 08:29:32
|
First off, why is everyone so harsh on Oduya? I know hes no superstar d-man but to say he's a #4 at best? I'm pretty sure he was playing higher than that in NJ and they are one of the better defensive teams in the league. Just cause Milbury says something doesn't mean its the truth...
Now as for Waddell, I do think he should be fired. I've been waiting for it to happen ever since ATL made the playoffs 4(?) years back. He traded away a few big pieces of the Thrashers' future just to make playoffs when the team obviously wasn't ready to make an impact. This included moving Brayden Coburn to Philly for Alexei Zhitnik who played one year in Atlanta and was far less than stellar. They also moved a lot of picks to get Tkachuk for the end of the season, then he left.
I'm sure it's not easy being GM in the thriving hockey market that is Atlanta, but since then Waddell has simply tried to patch the holes in his franchise by overpaying underachievers let go by other teams. While of course losing the two players who actually made an impact. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 09:38:47
|
| I have nothing against Oduya, i think he's a good defensemen, i just said IMO he isn't a true 1st pairing defensemen, but he's an ideal guy to have on your second pairing, in the 3/4 slot. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 11:41:12
|
I dunno, while i wouldn't be shocked if he's fired, and perhaps he should be, we don't know everything about the situation. Maybe they tried last summer to sign him to big money? If he turned it down, it's not like now where they go public with it. They obviously would leave it be and hope their team does well enough that he'd wanna stay? If they throw it out there that they offered him a ton of money and he turned it down, his trade value goes down big time.
As for what they got, how much more did you expect? Ryan, keep in mind, he's a rental! Yeah, maybe NJ ends up signing him, but at this point, he's a rental and that's it! All teams had to realize whatever there were offering, it could be for 30 or so games?
I'm not shocked at all at what they got for him. However, i like the 3 strikes yer out comment from polishexpress!  |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 13:34:49
|
What do people expect? I guess all the deals that we figure should happen make us the experts??
Apparently(according to the Edmonton Sun today), LA was close but Waddell demanded Jack Johnson who was off the table. The offer from LA was Frolov, Purcell, and a 2nd round pick.
Is that better??
Apparently, Edmonton was also stretching and offered Horcoff, Souray, and Visnovsky for a total of $19 million in salary. I can only imagine hearing Waddell's laughter as Tambellini hung up the phone.
I agree that I think Waddell didn't get value from Kovalchuk but I doubt anyone could have. He's a UFA this season and there is a significant risk that he will chase the money(contrary to some beliefs) and head to the KHL or the highest bidder.
Why would a team give up the farm for a player they can rightfully negotiate with in the offseason and not cost them anything. Looking at a team like LA, the will have the cash to sign him in the offseason and not lose anything.
2 roster players, a prospect, and a 1st round draft pick is pretty friggin good. I don't understand what people expected. He's not under contract so no one was willing to sell the farm. It's that simple. He was handcuffed by free agency. His mistake was not making the deal earlier and maybe getting one more player out of the deal, but that's about the most he would have gotten.
If Waddell did such a poor job, what deal would have been a good one??? |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 13:39:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
Actually, great reasoning irvine, it seemed like the stuff that he said about Kovy may have been true, but spun to make it shine as good as possible on himself as a GM losing a star player, again...Waddell must be starting to feel he is treading water as Thrashers GM.
Heatley, Hossa, Kovalchuk. Three strikes and you're out.
What was wrong with the Heatley deal??? Heatley for Hossa and DeVries is a fair deal to say the least.
Hossa and Dupuis for Armstrong, Christianson, Esposito, and a 1st round pick.
Let's not confuse high profile deals with bad deals. Not every deal a GM makes is going to make the Cup winning difference. |
|
|
|
Guest2280
( )
|
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:34:39
|
| i never do but u have to agree with milbury on this one. not much in return for kova. too bad milbury didnt think this way when he was in NY. man he gave away some awesome players. Seems the common link here is no-one wants to stay a thrasher...waddell has to move every1 it seems. I think a lot of high profile players would move to a hockey crazed city if given the chance. Do u think a player like Rick Nash wouldnt like to play in front of the fans at the air canada center ?? i certainly think he would love to...fans who actually apprec. and know the game of hockey...bet he can go to wal-mart in columbus and not even be noticed... |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:56:40
|
No Alex, i think the deal they got for Kovalchuk is fine considering he's a UFA in a couple of months. If there was a better offer on the table, obviously they would of taken it.
What i meant is that i think this deal should of been done either at the trade deadline last season, or at the NHL draft this past summer, then i think they would of gotten a better package in return seeing as Kovalchuk was still under contract for an entire season.
According to the HNIC guys at least, Waddel met with Kovalchuk last summer & Kovy told him he was happy they went out & signed guys like Antropov & Kubina, and that he wanted to stay in Atlanta. Yet they didn't throw any $70 or $101 million offers at him then. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 15:59:11
|
Rick Nash had the chance to go wherever he wanted to this coming summer, but he instead chose to stay in Columbus, so i'm not sure about your statement.
If he really wanted to leave CBJ for Toronto, he would of waited until July 1st, because i'm almost certain Toronto would be one of the teams knocing at his door. |
|
|
|
Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 17:38:14
|
Who wants to play in Atlanta?
Seriously.
Don Wadell is trying to make teams with the players he can get. His track record is god awful. But circumstances sometimes cant be helped. Heatley killed someone, so he wanted out. I dont remember if he tried to keep Savard or not, Hossa was traded to them and obviously doesnt want to be there. Kovalchuk didnt want to stay obviously, by looking at what he is offered. As soon as a player lets it be known he wants out, the GM hands are pretty much tied. Other GM's know Kovalchuk didnt want to stay, and Waddell won't let him walk for nothing. He got a good enough deal. Regardless of who you get back, its almost impossible to "win" a trade if your the one giving up a superstar like Ilya.
I liked both the Heatley and Hossa trades as a Thrasher fan. Its too bad Espisito is a band aid, and Christensen was never a big part. Armstrong became one of the leaders on Atlanta.
Reading what Kovalchuk said after his first game, he loved how the crowd CARED. He's never had that before in Atlanta, and the rush as a player must be amazing. Don Waddell has one of the most difficult jobs in the NHL. And now everyones looking at him and wondering what he is thinking. I truly don't believe he is needed to be fired, but then again, none of us know what happens behind closed doors. But the Thrashers are sinking faster and faster it seems. I promise you they just lost probably half their fan base. Thats just unfortunate.
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
|
|
|
Guest4988
( )
|
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 17:44:20
|
I think Don Waddell got the best deal that he could. Whether the team needs a change of GMs for a fresh start, well it's definitely worthy of consideration.
But for Mike Milbury of all people to criticize Waddell was a joke. This is the guy who traded away from the New York Islanders Roberto Luongo & Olli Jokinen to Florida for Mark Parrish & Oleg Kvasha. He also traded Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe & a 3rd rounder ( Jarkko Ruutu ) to Vancouver for Trevor Linden; As well, he traded away Eric Brewer to the Edmonton Oilers & two others for Roman Hamrlik. There are others too, but the Luongo one alone should stop him from criticizing other GMs' work. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 18:04:58
|
| I think pretty well everyone was thinking thinking somehing along those lines Guest4988. While i agreed with what Mad Mike had to say on this night, i still found it comical to listen to him rip another GM for how he handled trading away star players. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 18:45:53
|
My comments, although looking back are similar to that of Mike Milbury are of my own. They are, how I feel of the situation.
I believe had he done it earlier, or waited later he may have retrieved slightly more for Kovalchuk. This was not the proper time, I don't believe.
But it happened at the time it did, and what he received is still not exactly that great of an acquisition. He also gave away Salemla. A bottom two defender, but pretty solid in a power play/offensive role on the blue line.
Kovalchuk could have fetched a little more I believe, even the LA deal you suggested Beans, " The offer from LA was Frolov, Purcell, and a 2nd round pick. " Providing you can get Frolov to re-sign.
And no Beans, I'm not the "expert." However, I still believe something slightly better was lurking around for such a stud. Who, could be a huge difference maker in the playoffs.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 20:29:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
My comments, although looking back are similar to that of Mike Milbury are of my own. They are, how I feel of the situation.
I believe had he done it earlier, or waited later he may have retrieved slightly more for Kovalchuk. This was not the proper time, I don't believe.
But it happened at the time it did, and what he received is still not exactly that great of an acquisition. He also gave away Salemla. A bottom two defender, but pretty solid in a power play/offensive role on the blue line.
Kovalchuk could have fetched a little more I believe, even the LA deal you suggested Beans, " The offer from LA was Frolov, Purcell, and a 2nd round pick. " Providing you can get Frolov to re-sign.
And no Beans, I'm not the "expert." However, I still believe something slightly better was lurking around for such a stud. Who, could be a huge difference maker in the playoffs.
Irvine/prez.
And a team risks losing some key assest as well as not signing Kovalchuk?? Sorry, too many GM's like their job.
Bottom line, a UFA anywhere near the trade deadline goes for literally less than 1/2 the actual market value. If Kovakchuk was signed long term, Waddell could have asked for anything and got it. But no team is going to sell the farm for a player they will have for literally 40-50 games at the absolute most.
Not a chance Frolov(another UFA), Purcell, and a 2nd round pick is equitable to the Oduya, Bergfors, 1st round deal. Not even close.
And why does Oduya get such a crap deal?? What's wrong with a legitimate shutdown defensemen who logs 20+ minutes a game, gets you 30+ points, can play on the PP and the PK and is in the prime of his career?? He's had the 2nd most minutes on the Devils for the past 2 seasons. That's hardly a "#4 at best: defensemen." Let's not forget that Bergfors is only 22 yrs old and it on his way to his first 20 goal season.
Oh, and Waddell aslo got a prospect and a 1st round pick.
I still don't see what's wrong with the deal at all. |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 22:05:37
|
I have to agree with you Beans, that the Kovy deal is pretty good, but still, shouldn't Kovy, in theory, make a more immediate impact on NJ than a 1st rounder Oduya, Berfors, and a troubled prospect? NJ becomes more of a cup threat, and Atlanta will struggle to be a .500 team.
I think that is what almost everyone is looking at, giving the impression Waddell has lost valuable assets in Heatley, Hossa, Kovy. This leads people to believe Waddell will be on the chopping block.
Beans: pardon me for lumping the Heatley deal with the Hossa(to Pit) deal and Kovy deal. I ignored the fact that it was a fairly good deal.
On the other hand, I will continue to confuse high profile deals with bad deals when a team sells a top player because they can't resign him before he becomes a FA. If you trade an "star" player for non-star players, your still left without a "star" player.
Beautiful, though that hindsight is 20-20, as Waddell looks back, he probably wishes he did something different, as I probably will in writing this comment, after Beans shoots down my arguments |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 22:52:35
|
What happens if Oduya, Berfors and the rest of the roster make a run this year to the playoffs. They were not a contender for the cup with Kovalchuk and certainly no better with him gone, but with the prospects and the salary now free they can now afford to sign UFA or trade for talent to be a better team. I hear Cormier although a controversial player and a known cheapshot artist, is actually a highly touted prospect.
I agree Kovalchuk is the best player of this deal, but a long known knock on Atlanta is the fact this team has no sense of team defense. Kovalchuk although a offensive gift was also part of the defensive problem. He was a team captain who is not responsible in his own end. thats gotta effect the whole team watching your captain float while the rest take defensive responsibilities.
Besides Kovalchuk painted Waddell into a corner. He told Waddell and everyone listening he was happy to stay in Atlanta. Waddell puts an offer out there 7 years at better than 10 million a year which is turned down. Then when he thinks a 12 year $100 million contract will make it happen, Kovalchuk turns it down. I think Kovalchuk led him to believe he was gonna sign and dont believe Waddell thought it would take this long. I also believe Kovalchuk told Waddell he changed his mind or was considering KHL and Waddell panicked and took the best offer for his team before the word got out. Nobody wants to see the press handle a long trade dispute like what happened to Ottawa with Heatley. That woulda torn the team up worse than the result of this trade.
To the LA trade, I'm not diggin Frolov. Personally woulda preferred Johnson in that package myself too. Frolov just hasn't blossomed as well as I'd hoped and Johnson is a way better prospect.
I heard Ottawa took a shot a Kovalchuk. Anyone now what Ottawa offered? |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 08:39:57
|
Hey Beans regarding Apparently, Edmonton was also stretching and offered Horcoff, Souray, and Visnovsky for a total of $19 million in salary. I can only imagine hearing Waddell's laughter as Tambellini hung up the phone.
Had Tambellini put Penner in Horcoffs spot I'd have said done deal. Horcoffs a deal killer at $7 million for a 3rd 4th liner. Surprising is the fact Atlanta had the cap space had that offer been made. |
|
|
|
Guest7107
( )
|
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 12:47:05
|
| Good points being thrown around but one valid one being overlooked is the olympics. A lot of points are suggesting the Waddell could have gotten more at the deadline well if Kovy is injured during the olympics whose giving up a ton of their future for an injured star who is simply a rental? The other thing pointed out by TSN is that the thrashers saved 840, 000 dollars in cap space by completing the deal when they did. The cash and solid return they got from the devils makes this move the best Waddell could have gotten in my opinion and as others have said it's always a tough trade when you trade your all-star and dont get a bonified one in return. In all though I think it was the best they could do and should make the team better overall eventually, just my 2 cents. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 13:03:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Hey Beans regarding Apparently, Edmonton was also stretching and offered Horcoff, Souray, and Visnovsky for a total of $19 million in salary. I can only imagine hearing Waddell's laughter as Tambellini hung up the phone.
Had Tambellini put Penner in Horcoffs spot I'd have said done deal. Horcoffs a deal killer at $7 million for a 3rd 4th liner. Surprising is the fact Atlanta had the cap space had that offer been made.
Ya, that would have made the deal better but only $3 million less in cap hit. Plus, Penner is one of the few bright spots for Edmonton and when he had some skill around him(Hemsky) he was on pace for a 40 goal year. Just the potential of that is enough to take him off the table.
If a GM can get their hands on a 35-40 goal scorer for less than $5 million a season, you don't often see that guy get traded.
And you are 100% correct. Horcoff is a killer of any deal for the next 5 seasons. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 16:37:37
|
Yes, he should be fired.
Good observations by Irvine, and no one addressed them really, only repeating that the market is not that great, and what deals were offered MID WAY THROUGH THE SEASON.
But that just shows you didn't read Irvine's post - the deal should have been done IN THE SUMMER. Have long talks with Kovalchuk, tell them your plan that if he really doesn't want to play for Atlanta, that they will trade him to a contender, have him give a list of teams, etc etc.
If they Atlanta organisation had done that, they would have gotten the highest price for him they could have, and would have gotten at least a couple of 50-60 point players in return along with either a great prospect or a 1st round draft pick.
Instead, they painted themselves in a corner, and sold Kovalchuk at a medium/low price, because of course at this time, that's all you will get.
Yet another bad decision by the GM in a long list of bad decisions.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 17:45:11
|
But Slozo, you are assuming that Waddell was looking for a deal in the summer. All the way up until nearly Christmas, both sides were optomistic that a deal was still possible. In fact,at the start of the year Kovachuk said he liked the direction the team was going and wanted to stay. Waddell, Kovalchuk, and the agent all said the same thing. So why would Waddell look for that deal in the Summer?? Would it not be as easy to say he should be fired for even thinking about trading Kovachuck when he was open to re-signing??
Secondly, it's also assuming that deals were out there. I mean really, does anyone think there is just a standing order for trades?? Yep, Burke called Sutter in the offseason and told him that he would give Stajan, Hagman, White, and Mayers for Phaneuf, Sjostrom, and Aulie!!
Finally, look at the Phaneuf deal as really the biggest deal in the NHL this season. It was a top teir defenseman, a legitimate 3rd line player and a prospect for 2-2nd line forwards, a plugger, and a #3 defensemen.
What makes us all think all of a sudden that Kovalchuk would be dealt for a blockbuster Lindros type deal??
Look at the most recent Heatley deal as an example. Heatley is in Kovalchuk's league and even at the start of the season the Heatley deal was not that far from(if at all) what Waddell got for Kovalchuk and Heatley was under contract!!
Honest, I take Oduya, Bergfors, and a 1st round pick over Michalek, Cheechoo, and a 2nd rounder!
Again, as much as people are 'not addressing the points" if the deal that was made was so bad, what deal would have been a good one?? Is there a deal Waddell could have made that made people say it was good??
I don't think so. Arm chair GM's never make mistakes and always could get better than those jokes that actually have the jobs in the big league. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 18:18:22
|
| Looks like the Thrashers have traded Kari Lehtonen to the Dallas Stars! |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 18:22:58
|
Going back to Dallas is Ivan Vishnevskiy & a 4th round pick. The Stars really didn't have to give up much, so i think it's worth the gamble. Lehtonen is extremely injury prone, but if he can ever manage to stay healthy, he's very talented, and he's still only 26, which is still very young for a goaltender. Hopefully things work out for him in Dallas.
Now the question is where will Marty Turco go? He's been brutal this season, and i'm actually watching the Stars/Hawks game right now, and he just gave up yet another softy to Patrick Kane. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 19:00:58
|
Beans, it's a discussion. We are not trying to be "arm chair GM's" or "know it alls."
But.... anyways....
I'm not sure what you are getting at by saying
quote:
Secondly, it's also assuming that deals were out there. I mean really, does anyone think there is just a standing order for trades?? Yep, Burke called Sutter in the offseason and told him that he would give Stajan, Hagman, White, and Mayers for Phaneuf, Sjostrom, and Aulie!!
Don Waddell can just easily pick up a phone, and call the teams Kovalchuk wanted to go to first. See if their is any interest, and go from there. They don't have to call him. Most GM's are not looking to trade their superstar, so yeah, we don't see it very often.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 19:17:50
|
Hey Irvine, I agree that Waddell picked up the phone pretty regularly after Christmas leading up to the deal. There were supposidly many offers but he picked this one. Other than the reported Horcoff, Souray, and Visnovsky and the Simmons, Purcell, 2nd round deal we have nothing to compare it to.
How do we know, even speculatively, if this deal was bad or not? It can only be relative to the other deals that were offered.
We have to go by what we know. So, I pose 2 questions.
Based on the latest offers for Kovalchuk(Edm, LA, and NJ) which was the best deal???
If Heatley(another top 5 goal scorer in the league) and a 5th round pick gets Michalek, Cheechoo, and a 2nd round pick (which most considered equitable at the time) was the deal that did happen for Kovalchuk significantly less in 'hockey value?"
I would suspect that if you answered NJ to the first question and No to the 2nd question, I can't see how one can say that Waddell deserves to be fired.
But that's just me. I admittedly agree that I thought Kovalchuk would go for more. However, when comparing that deal to the Heatley deal and to ultimately the dead hockey trade market, I don't see it as a really horrible deal. I don't think any deal Waddell could have made could have been considered a win for ATL. Losing a brilliant scorer like Kovalchuk is nearly always viewed as a loss.
I beleive the NJ deal significantly better than what Waddell would have gotten if trading at the draft(see Bouwmeester last year). If Waddell would have let Kovalchuk go in July for nothing, I would have agreed completely with you. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 19:42:02
|
I will agree with you that losing Kovalchuk (any return will seem as a loss, unless you are getting another top 5 goal scorer in return.)
But... what I was really getting at with my first post was to trade much earlier than Waddell did. I see your points that Atlanta/Waddell felt Kovy wanted to stay, as he expressed it himself that he did.
But, as soon as the time came, where Kovalchuk could have re-signed, a deal should have been not only discussed, but done.
He should have made these offers July 1 - 7th, if Kovy turned them down. It was time to move him out asap. A full half of season, is plenty of time for a team close to the bottom, to be move in to 8th-4th in the Conference, or 1st in their division. Giving them a playoff berth, and then a well-connected, acquainted team going in to the playoffs.
I believe he would have gained far more, if he traded Kovalchuk as soon as he could. (or near that.) Teams would have had him longer, and likely more willing to give up more for a guy that then would not seem like just a playoff rental.
I believe partially, this is Kovalchuk's fault though too. I think Kovy kind of screwed Waddell and Atlanta, saying he wanted to stay there. It's likely the reason Waddell waited so long, feeling he had Kovy there, no rush.
I just look at Waddell's track record, the players he has had but lost, compare that to what he has at this moment... and I wonder why he's still there. I understand, most left because they were not happy in Atlanta, not Waddells fault. But he's still the GM. We've seen Coaches/GM's fired for less. He has wittnessed a few big names, come yet go. I just believe it's his time. ATL needs a change.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 20:00:47
|
Ok Irvine, now we are getting to some points we agree on. I disagree that Waddell should be fired based purely on the Kovalchuk deal as I think he did about as good as he could with the card he was dealt.
Now, to the points I do agree with. Firstly, yes the deal should have been done at the start of the year. If Kovalchuk wants to stay, sign him. At that time you can see if he doesn't sign he is blowing smoke and you go in a different direction.
Waiting too long is Waddell's fault.
Further, if you do look at his entire body of work, there are questions. Specifically if you consider that they have had very high draft picks for a very long time, they should be part of that group(Pitt, Wash, Chi, LA) who are "there" or very very close to "there".
Now Waddell has been GM since day one, so everything you see in ATL is his. Lets first look at his draft(specifically 1st round picks).
1999 - 1st overall - Patrik Stephan
2000- 2nd overall - Dany Heatley
2001 - 1st overall - Ilya Kovalchuk
2002 - 2nd overall - Kara Lehtonen
2003- 8th overall - Braydon Coburn
2004- 10th overall - Boris Valabek
2005 - 16th overall - Alex Bourret
2006 - 12th overall - Bryan Little
2007 - No 1st round pick
2008 - 3rd overall - Zack Bogosian
2008 - 29th overall - Dalton Leveille
So, in nearly a decade of draft picks and many of them lottery picks, one would have expected the pieces of the puzzle would be there. And how quickly did either he give up on the player or the player give up on the team?? And not much of a roster to consider the firepower in those picks.
So as an entire body of work I would agree that it may be his time to go. However, based solely on the Kovalchuk deal(as well as the Heatley deal) I don't believe he could be hung out to dry. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 21:34:57
|
Yeah, I'm sorry if what I said was not very clear.
I'm not saying he should be fired based solely on the Kovalchuk deal. Based on everything, since the beginning. His track record just isn't there. He has, as you mentioned, many top first round picks. Yet, what does he have left?
Bogosian (Nice up and coming Defensmen, I will admit)
Little (Time will tell.)
And this past couple of weeks alone, two first round picks are traded away in Kovalchuk and Lehtonen.
He should have a pretty solid team of 18-30 year old studs by now. Had he kept the key pieces, developed them properly and didn't give up on them. (or, as you said.. they give up on him/team.)
So when I look at it as a whole, I see a team with nothing left besides Bogosian, really. And all of the oppourtunities to build.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 09:40:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
Yeah, I'm sorry if what I said was not very clear.
I'm not saying he should be fired based solely on the Kovalchuk deal. Based on everything, since the beginning. His track record just isn't there. He has, as you mentioned, many top first round picks. Yet, what does he have left?
Bogosian (Nice up and coming Defensmen, I will admit)
Little (Time will tell.)
And this past couple of weeks alone, two first round picks are traded away in Kovalchuk and Lehtonen.
He should have a pretty solid team of 18-30 year old studs by now. Had he kept the key pieces, developed them properly and didn't give up on them. (or, as you said.. they give up on him/team.)
So when I look at it as a whole, I see a team with nothing left besides Bogosian, really. And all of the oppourtunities to build.
Irvine/prez.
I agree, its time for Wadell to go. But, Atlanta doesnt draw guys who generally want to win it all and have the talent to match. Kovalchuk was the last player to exit this team with little to show for it. I mean how do you attract a Marquee player to Atlanta. How do you draw pieces to complete the puzzle. They have the same problem Edmonton has except a better climate. Dont know if I put all the problems on Waddells shoulders. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Fire Don Waddell? 
