| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2010 : 15:19:51
|
Easy, Niemi.
So the guy walks into the bar with a dog and starts to watch the oilers game. They score and the dog does a flip in the air. The bartender says "That was cool, what does he do when they win?" to which the guy replies "I don't know, I've only had him for 15 years." |
 |
|
|
Guest4122
( )
|
Posted - 10/28/2010 : 07:41:24
|
Khabibulin wasnt in chicago last year!!!! He spent most of the season on the shelf in Edmonton!@!!quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ward is pretty solid. He has been hurt and on a bad team.
Khabibulin is no fluke. Look what he did in Chicago last year. If you look way back you will also see that although Phoenix/Winnipeg did not win his numbers were pretty friggin sharp.
Giguere has never completely impressed me. Never reached his potential in my opinion.
However, even if you disagree on my opinion of Ward, Khabibulin, or Giguere being good or not, at the least they played great when then won. Osgood was barely average.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2010 : 08:27:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4122
Khabibulin wasnt in chicago last year!!!! He spent most of the season on the shelf in Edmonton!@!!quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ward is pretty solid. He has been hurt and on a bad team.
Khabibulin is no fluke. Look what he did in Chicago last year. If you look way back you will also see that although Phoenix/Winnipeg did not win his numbers were pretty friggin sharp.
Giguere has never completely impressed me. Never reached his potential in my opinion.
However, even if you disagree on my opinion of Ward, Khabibulin, or Giguere being good or not, at the least they played great when then won. Osgood was barely average.
You might want to take a look at the date of that post. I was May 2010, meaning I was refering to the previous season(2008/2009) when Khabibulin was in Chicago.
Trust me, as an Edmonton fan I know exactly where Khabibulin was all of last season. |
|
|
|
crichards
Top Prospect
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2010 : 16:43:45
|
Lets look at some career playoff stats to consider this question.
I think the best indicators of which goalies succeed in the playoffs other than winning the Cup (which is all goalies in this category) you have to look at wins, GAA and Save %.
Here's some goalies who have been mentioned,
Career playoff stats: Wins GAA Save %
Fleury 38 2.52 .911
Khabibulin 39 2.40 .917
Richter 41 2.68 .909
Barrasso 61 3.01 N/A
Hasek 65 2.02 .925
Osgood 74 2.09 .916
Vernon 77 2.68 N/A
Belfour 88 2.17 .920
Fuhr 92 2.93 N/A
Brodeur 99 2.01 .919
Roy 151 2.30 N/A
While looking at these #'s I can't understand why so many people are convinced Osgood is so terrible. His GAA and Sv % are remarkably close to Brodeur's. His wins are 25 less but he has played in 52 less games than Brodeur, so his winning % is actually better. I'm not saying he's better than Brodeur, however Brodeur is considered by many to be the best and Osgood who has very similar #'s and plays with a similarly good defensive team is considered by many to be the worst. Something doesn't add up here.
Ozzie's also 3rd in shutouts on this list.
Besides, if he's so bad on such a good team, why couldn't Jimmy Howard make it past the 2nd round last year? (almost didn't make it past Phoenix in the 1st round)
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 10:24:01
|
Brodeur is know as a brilliant regular season goalie and one of the few things critics knock him for is he does not play as well in the playoffs. Comparing Osgood to Brodeur is not saying much. However, nail on the head when talking about how many more games and wins, and while we are at it had a better sav% and GAA facing 1500 more shots than Osgood and playing in 50 more games.
Stats only paint part of the picture. Osgood was no better or worse than average. Much like at Trent Dilfer for the Baltimore Ravens. Osgood never won a series for the Wings, he just never lost a series for them. Through his entire career, Osgood was never considered in the top end of goalies in the NHL.
But heck, I play with stats for a while. Why don't we take a look at Osgood when he wasn't with the Red Wings.
Reg Season
179 games, 84 W, 67L, 20T, 11 SO, .905 save% and 2.51 GAA
Playoffs
19 games, 7W, 12L, 0T, 1 SO, .905 save% and 2.52 GAA.
Substantially lower than his career average and ultimately very average at best.
Nope, the team in front of Osgood had very little to do with that. Osgood was average and that is about it. Ultimately, it a comparison of the best of the best of all time and Osgood is definitely near the bottom of that list. No one can amass 400 wins and 3 Rings by being a total hack, however he was not the #1 reason or even the #2, 3, or 4 reason those rings are on his finger. |
|
|
|
Guest8511
( )
|
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 14:13:57
|
| Antti Niemi |
|
|
|
Guest9296
( )
|
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 17:33:16
|
| just wondering what criteria people are using for worst goalie. While Osgood played for a great team, the years that Brodeur won, he had a much better defensive team than Osgood ever had. Osgood was mostly reliable, which is something that you can't say for Fleury. Fleury may win you a game or series, but he can lose you one as well. Ward had an incredible run when he came in as a backup for Irbe(????) and that didn't seem to carry on into the rest of his career. It seems many experts think Ward is an elite goalie, but between injuries, slumps and playing on a mediocre team he has never seemed to be the guy to carry a team since. While Osgood seems to have the reputation as the worst goalie to win a cup, all things being equal I would take him instead of Fleury. Niemi outduelled Luongo before getting to the finals, while Fleury was crushed by Halak this past year. While it may be difficult to debate the merits of the worst goalie, I think most overrated would be Fleury. |
|
|
|
Guest5012
( )
|
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 17:42:19
|
| You can hate the Pens all you want (I'm no fan of theres, trust me) but to suggest Fleury is a bad goalie and/or worse than Osgood is pure loonacy. Get your heads examined. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 23:48:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5012
You can hate the Pens all you want (I'm no fan of theres, trust me) but to suggest Fleury is a bad goalie and/or worse than Osgood is pure loonacy. Get your heads examined.
I'd say that's a little strong. With all of what Osgood accomplished, it's tought to say how he'd have fared on another decent team. Please keep in mind, i said "decent"! The Blues and Isle's teams he played for were not that good!
Osgood has to be considered one of the most underrated ever. |
|
|
|
Guest5806
( )
|
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 18:34:10
|
| Neimi, not even a #1 goalie in san jose now |
|
|
|
Guest4897
( )
|
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 20:04:15
|
| Anti Niemi last year then Osgood |
|
|
|
Guest4897
( )
|
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 20:08:06
|
| Anti Niemi last year then Osgood |
|
|
|
crichards
Top Prospect
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 21:19:16
|
I'm pretty sure Osgood was a close contender for the Conn Smyth when he won in '08 and in '09 it was thought he would win it if the Wings won the series. I can't remember much about 1998, so don't know if he was a consideration.
I have to agree that Osgood's numbers when playing for the Islanders and Blues were not stellar, but it's interesting to note he helped the Islanders to their first playoff round in 8 years (they also bowed out in the 1st round the next 2 years after he left).
The 2 years he spent with St. Louis they were knocked out in the first round both times, however after he left the Blues, they missed the playoffs for the next 5 years and won 0 games the one year they did make it.
As was mentioned by Alex116 the other teams were not very good and it's a tough comparison to make. I think Osgood did well just to help those teams get into the playoffs.
I can't say the Red Wings have been great solely because of Osgood, but I certainly think he has been a key contributor. |
|
|
|
Guest8734
( )
|
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 19:10:23
|
| I can't believe Anti Niemi was mentioned! I think he may be the greatest goalie ever!! He's the goalie that finally brought the Cup back to Chicago. And he did this on an offensive minded team. I think the Hawks may miss the playoffs this year without him and San Jose will win the Cup with Niemi showing he's a winner. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 20:05:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8734
I can't believe Anti Niemi was mentioned! I think he may be the greatest goalie ever!! He's the goalie that finally brought the Cup back to Chicago. And he did this on an offensive minded team. I think the Hawks may miss the playoffs this year without him and San Jose will win the Cup with Niemi showing he's a winner.
Oh my....  |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 23:37:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8734
I can't believe Anti Niemi was mentioned! I think he may be the greatest goalie ever!! He's the goalie that finally brought the Cup back to Chicago. And he did this on an offensive minded team. I think the Hawks may miss the playoffs this year without him and San Jose will win the Cup with Niemi showing he's a winner.
Should i take this one or will someone else?
Pasty |
|
|
|
Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 06:57:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8734
I can't believe Anti Niemi was mentioned! I think he may be the greatest goalie ever!! He's the goalie that finally brought the Cup back to Chicago. And he did this on an offensive minded team. I think the Hawks may miss the playoffs this year without him and San Jose will win the Cup with Niemi showing he's a winner.
Should i take this one or will someone else?
Pasty
I will Pasty.
How in the right mind can you call Antti Niemi the greatest goalie ever? Look at his career numbers:
.905 save percentage
.247 GAA
and a whopping 28 career wins!!!!
How can you call someone who has only 28 career wins the best netminder ever?!?!
The man has the SHARKS in 12th. 12th!!!!!!!!!!! THE SHARKS!!!!!!
Sure he guided Chicago to the cup, but with Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Bolland, Brouwer, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and Hjarmalsson it wasn't that ward.
Shame on you, guest 8734!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 01:01:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Awesome One
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8734
I can't believe Anti Niemi was mentioned! I think he may be the greatest goalie ever!! He's the goalie that finally brought the Cup back to Chicago. And he did this on an offensive minded team. I think the Hawks may miss the playoffs this year without him and San Jose will win the Cup with Niemi showing he's a winner.
Should i take this one or will someone else?
Pasty
I will Pasty.
How in the right mind can you call Antti Niemi the greatest goalie ever? Look at his career numbers:
.905 save percentage
.247 GAA
and a whopping 28 career wins!!!!
How can you call someone who has only 28 career wins the best netminder ever?!?!
The man has the SHARKS in 12th. 12th!!!!!!!!!!! THE SHARKS!!!!!!
Sure he guided Chicago to the cup, but with Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Bolland, Brouwer, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, and Hjarmalsson it wasn't that ward.
Shame on you, guest 8734!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
Thank you Mr. Awsome
Pasty |
|
|
|
Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 06:45:52
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Pasty7
Thank you Mr. Awsome
Pasty
[/quote]
Any time Pasty!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
Edited by - Awesome One on 11/07/2010 06:46:13 |
|
|
|
Guest8846
( )
|
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 07:31:07
|
| An .892 career save percentage puts Tom Barraso on the list of possibles |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 07:42:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8846
An .892 career save percentage puts Tom Barraso on the list of possibles
I think one needs to appreciate the era some of these guys played in. Consider that Barrasso started playing in the 83/84 season and in the 5 seasons betwen 83/84 and 88/89 there were only 1 or 2 goalies each season that played more than 30 games and had a save % of .900 or higher.
Even in 90/91 when Barrasso won the Cup there were only 3 goalies (Belfour, Richter, and Roy) who played in more than 30 games and had a higher than .900 save percentage.
|
|
|
|
Yewcandoit
Rookie
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 20:11:13
|
I was surprised how far Osgood got during the playoffs.
I was flabbergasted when he won the cup.
Just shows you how important the D is. |
|
|
|
Guest4748
( )
|
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 22:15:05
|
| Finally someone posted Anti Niemi. This guy has to be the worst goalie that ever won the cup. If you can't even win with the Sharks... |
|
|
|
Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 08:39:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Yewcandoit
I was surprised how far Osgood got during the playoffs.
I was flabbergasted when he won the cup.
Just shows you how important the D is.
The Red Wings at the time were good enough that they did not need a great goalie to win.
I still say Niemi.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
|
|
|
doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
278 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 09:43:11
|
| It's probably one of those goalies they would just take off the street in wartime NHL in the late 30's early Forties |
|
|
|
Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 09:50:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by doublechamp7
It's probably one of those goalies they would just take off the street in wartime NHL in the late 30's early Forties
That is true, but I think that this should probably be within a time where some of us have been alive!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
|
|
|
crichards
Top Prospect
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2010 : 01:54:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Awesome One
quote:
Originally posted by Yewcandoit
I was surprised how far Osgood got during the playoffs.
I was flabbergasted when he won the cup.
Just shows you how important the D is.
The Red Wings at the time were good enough that they did not need a great goalie to win.
I still say Niemi.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
Aren't these arguments a little ridiculous? The Wings were good enough that they didn't need a great goalie to win and the D is really important.
How many of the past Stanley Cup winners didn't have a good defensive team and how many were not good teams?
You could use this argument for pretty much any team.
Not many bad teams with poor defence win the Cup and it is no different with Detroit. In Osgood's last 2 playoff runs his Save % was .930 and .926 respectively. I don't think you can argue that he had nothing to do with the Wing's playoff success with #'s like this. I know stats aren't everything, but I think save % is one of the better indicators of how good a goalie is.
Why didn't they win the Stanley Cup last year? They had pretty much the same team as the 2 previous seasons other than who played in goal. You're arguments would suggest that they could win with any decent goalie. |
|
|
|
crichards
Top Prospect
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2010 : 02:09:55
|
I also want to mention Antti Niemi.
Why is he even a consideration in this category? I'm not saying this because I think he's so good, but simply for the fact that it is a little unfair to consider a goalie with 1 NHL season under his belt as the worst at anything. Mentioning him seems even more ridiculous as he won a Stanley Cup with the Hawks as a rookie!
I think I'm a little defensive about this one because I am a fan of Osgood and I see the same thing already happening to Niemi. A guy wins a Cup early in his career and all anyone can do is criticize him. My guess is no matter what Niemi does in the future he will be labelled as a poor goalie.
I honestly don't know alot about him and haven't seen him play much, so I can't really offer an opinion on how good or bad he is, but I think he did fine in the playoffs last year and know he played some strong games which helped his team win the Cup.
I remember him being the big question mark before last years playoffs and people predicting the Hawks would not reach their potenital because of Niemi. However, he plays well enough to help the team win the Cup and people still love to knock him.
Maybe a few years down the road we will be able to say he was the worst to win the Cup but I think it may be a little unfair to judge him just quite yet. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2010 : 07:50:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by crichards
quote:
Originally posted by Awesome One
quote:
Originally posted by Yewcandoit
I was surprised how far Osgood got during the playoffs.
I was flabbergasted when he won the cup.
Just shows you how important the D is.
The Red Wings at the time were good enough that they did not need a great goalie to win.
I still say Niemi.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
Aren't these arguments a little ridiculous? The Wings were good enough that they didn't need a great goalie to win and the D is really important.
How many of the past Stanley Cup winners didn't have a good defensive team and how many were not good teams?
You could use this argument for pretty much any team.
Not many bad teams with poor defence win the Cup and it is no different with Detroit. In Osgood's last 2 playoff runs his Save % was .930 and .926 respectively. I don't think you can argue that he had nothing to do with the Wing's playoff success with #'s like this. I know stats aren't everything, but I think save % is one of the better indicators of how good a goalie is.
Why didn't they win the Stanley Cup last year? They had pretty much the same team as the 2 previous seasons other than who played in goal. You're arguments would suggest that they could win with any decent goalie.
Firstly, to answer your question of what teams won the Stanley Cup without great defensive teams. The 86 Canadiens, the 90 and 91 Penguins, the 93 Canadiens, the 94 Rangers, the 98 Stars, the 03 Lightning, the 06 Hurricanes, and the 09 Penguins.
You are making the assumption that a goalies save % is completely dependent on the goalie. Completely false. The goalies with the best save % in the NHl generally have the best defensive core as well.
Finally, maybe one should have looked at Jimmy Howards numbers last seasons playoffs. He was 3rd out of the 9 goalies who had enough shots to quality for the stat. Only Halak and Leighton were higher.
The Red Wings didn't win last year because their team was beat by another team. Their goaltending never was in question and there are few if any people that could be convinced that the Wings would have won with Osgood in net.
And yes, the years they did win the Cups behind Osgood could have been won with just about any slightly above average goalie. He didn't win any games for the Wings, he just didn't lose any. |
|
|
|
Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2010 : 22:45:45
|
[/quote]
The Red Wings didn't win last year because their team was beat by another team. Their goaltending never was in question and there are few if any people that could be convinced that the Wings would have won with Osgood in net.
And yes, the years they did win the Cups behind Osgood could have been won with just about any slightly above average goalie. He didn't win any games for the Wings, he just didn't lose any.
[/quote]
Osgood did win games for the wings. Osgood is the kind of goalie who is out of posistion and lets some cheap ones by but he makes big saves, some that win games.
The Monkey is me |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Worst goalie to win the cup. 
