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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2011 : 09:03:57
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| Oshie was back for STL last night, first game in 35. They're still missing Perron (their version of Kesler) and MacDonald, but things seem to be getting back to normal in STL. A good game by Halak last night. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:17:13
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| Man, MTL lost Cammy, Pacioretty, Halpern, and possibly Subban all last night? What a costly game... if they're all out extended periods, it will be interesting to see how Price does... |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Man, MTL lost Cammy, Pacioretty, Halpern, and possibly Subban all last night? What a costly game... if they're all out extended periods, it will be interesting to see how Price does...
Apprently Pacioretty broke 2 ribs, Cammalleri is out 2 weeks with a seperated shoulder, Lucky the all star break mya give him an extra week so he doesn't rush back and re injure himself, Halpren still no word how long apparently it is his shoulder, this is a huge blow to this team, Espcially Cammalleri because even when he is not scoring he is creating goals, a perfect example is Plekanec's goal on the PP the other day, both defenders were way to high up in their zone trying to take away Cammy's one timer.. he also has been seeing a lot of pk time along with Halpren ,, this is a huge loss fo the habs
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 13:29:53
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Beans i can`t see how you don`t see how 3 of your top 6 - 8 hockey players ( defense or forwards ) doesn`t affect the play going the other way.
These 3 players have to be replaced right away. Obviously the replacements are going to be AHL players who are inexperienced and are going to make many mistakes. ( remenber its 3 big-time players )
This will lead to many giveaways and turn-overs thus giving the opposing many more GLORIOUS scoring chances, thus LEADING to your goalie having to come up with more BIG SAVES, which will affect his Numbers some-what, it has to.
How much puck control will a team lose with 3 of its top 6 out ?? I say quite a lot, with over-all team defense affected greatly.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:10:17
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Duke, don't put words in my mouth. I said, very clear, top 3 of the top 6 forwards. Not 3 of the top 6 players. Huge difference.
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
Seriously. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Duke, don't put words in my mouth. I said, very clear, top 3 of the top 6 forwards. Not 3 of the top 6 players. Huge difference.
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
Seriously.
I will say it for the third time your top six forwards play in the offensive zone when the puck is in the offensive zone or in the Blues possesion the Blues are not getting scored on, your top six forwards are generally the guys who have the puck on their stick the most! And someone also mentioned Perron is a very good 2 way forward,, i don't know this i have limited exposer to Perron but if this is true it is a pretty signifigant hit to this teams defense.. beans the top six have signifgant effect on a teams numbers as a whole incluiding the goalie, to not aknowledge this is a complete disregard for fact! Now i agree with you the difference is not signifgant enough for a goalie's sv% to suffer to much maybe drop a few points but not 10 which is the difference between Price and Halak, but to say these guys are all about offense well that just plain wrong black and white sir! Thomas Plekanec is a perfect example of this!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:56:42
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C'mon Pasty, who are you trying to kid. Because you say the word 'fact' I am supposed to believe it??
Fact is something that can be proven. What you are saying is assumption and opinion. It's is not fact.
And again, I agree that top 6 forwards have an impact on overall win/loss. Furthermore, considering when a top 6 forward gets hurt it is generally a guy on the 3rd line that moves up and his spot is filled with an reserve player or an AHL guy. Would that not lend itself to the opinion that losing a top 6 forwards will inject more defense into the line up?????
That's not a fact, that is an opinion.  |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 16:47:00
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quote:
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
http://www.stlouisgametime.com/2010/12/1/1848169/blues-missing-oshies-defense-more-than-offense
Oshie centres either the first or second line in STL, it moves around. Sometimes, some of your best defensive players are also top-6 forwards. Kesler and Burrows are not alone in that category.
Certainly for STL, the loss of Oshie and Perron for long periods has had an effect on their game - offensively for sure, but coupled with key injuries to other defenders, defensively as well. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/19/2011 16:51:20 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 16:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
C'mon Pasty, who are you trying to kid. Because you say the word 'fact' I am supposed to believe it??
Fact is something that can be proven. What you are saying is assumption and opinion. It's is not fact.
And again, I agree that top 6 forwards have an impact on overall win/loss. Furthermore, considering when a top 6 forward gets hurt it is generally a guy on the 3rd line that moves up and his spot is filled with an reserve player or an AHL guy. Would that not lend itself to the opinion that losing a top 6 forwards will inject more defense into the line up?????
That's not a fact, that is an opinion.
No beans it is fact take away a better player and replace them with a player of a lower calibre the entire team will suffer statisticly,, including the goalie
i've noticed beans in many mnay threads how often you avoid very sound arguments or completely ignore them because you probably feel asthough you cannot shoot them down, so i'll repeat myself again and please explain to me how i am wrong on these very clear points,
A. Often a top six forwards plays a 2 way role (ex Ryan Keseler, Pavel Datsyuk, Thomas plekanec... the list goes on) Perron is apparently this type of player, this is one reason a goalie's statistics can be affected by a top six forward being out of the lineup.
B. Your top six forwards are the players who control the puck the most on any hockey team, Hence missing three of your top six forwards means less puck possesion and if the blues don't have the puck that usually means their opponent does, this again is why Halak's stats can be affected by 3 top six forwards being missing,
as to your comment about putting a 3rd liner in the top six adding defense to the lineup here is my rebuttle:
I will use the Canadian's as a sample because they are the team i know the best.
lets say Cammalleri, Plekanec and Gomez go down, the habs replace these 3 top six wingers with Pouliot, Eller and Halpren, these three will not have the puck nearly as much as the habs 3 players that are out, Eller is a rookie and prone to rookie mistakes ,, Pouliot is a hot cold lazy player hence why he doesn't play regularly on the top six, and Halpren is a very good defensive forward but will be asked to play way more minutes and he would be asked to fill the defensive role of Plekanec and Gomez which he simply will not be up to par hence why this team is weaker in every aspect of the game offensivly and defensivly.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:21:20
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Hey Pasty, great very specific example. If you take out any teams top 3 players than there will be a negative impact. I get that. I am not a moron.
However, the point that appears to be missed in this when attacking my inability to argue a point is that I did agree. Some parts of the goalie's stats will decrease. Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
You want an example. How does Scott Clemmeson and Thomas Vokoun, playing on a very poor team with one of the weakest groups of top 6 forwards in the NHL both be in the top 10 in save %???
I am not talking about anything other than save % and GAA. Both are very dependent on a goalies skill have have almost nothing to do with a top 6 forward. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Pasty, great very specific example. If you take out any teams top 3 players than there will be a negative impact. I get that. I am not a moron.
However, the point that appears to be missed in this when attacking my inability to argue a point is that I did agree. Some parts of the goalie's stats will decrease. Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
You want an example. How does Scott Clemmeson and Thomas Vokoun, playing on a very poor team with one of the weakest groups of top 6 forwards in the NHL both be in the top 10 in save %???
I am not talking about anything other than save % and GAA. Both are very dependent on a goalies skill have have almost nothing to do with a top 6 forward.
ok from your previous post i was under the impression you completely disagree with the notion a goalie's stats can be affected by top six forwards, i apologize, And as i said G.AA i can see going up but Sv% i do agree should not drop signifgantly meaning the differencen between Price\s Sv% and Halak's is to great as to be blamed on the missing top six forwards, if Halak's Sv% was somewhere more like .917 to Prices .921 then i would say someone could make the top six argument but with nearly 10 point difference i think is huge when you consider last night against buffalo price made 37 save and sv% .949 for the night and his Sv% on the year only went up from .920 to .921,,
I think Sv% is the most representative stat for a goaltender, so i gues we sorta kinda almost agree
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:53:47
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quote:
Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
the absense of good defenders, or good defensive forwards, certainly would affect the quality of shots, which may certainly have an impact on a goalie's GAA and SV%.
For example, I have seen Luongo play some very good games but get beat on very good chances and have his SV% suffer. I have also seen him play mediocre games where his SV% is high because many of the shots are from the perimeter or not screened, and are much easier to stop.
The defensive capacity of the team as a whole will definitely affect the number and quality of shots for most goalies. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 19:59:25
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Yes Nuxfan, ( pasty touched on this too ) thats the point i have been trying to make...QUALITY of SHOTS. A team with GOOD BACK-CHECKING forwards, ( your better forwards ) missing from your line-up, will make a difference in your goalies numbers.
Obviously perimeter shots are easier for a goal-tender to stop...thus % and GAA are higher.
In your face chances are obviously tougher for a goal-tender, with MORE goal scoring resulting. Thus % and GAA are lower.
TEAM DEFENSE help goalies receive a higher % and GAA. When your better players are out....so is team your defense. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 05:48:16
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The quality of a team's defence definitely does affect a goalie's chance at getting a good save % and GAA . . . being experienced enough to know when to allow a sightline, versus knowing when to block a shot . . . pushing off shooters so the shot is ineffective, etc etc. That is why every stat is so difficult to use as a be all and end all judgement of a player's worth.
No matter what happens with Montreal, however, Price has put himself in an excellent position for the rest of the season . . . if his numbers start to take a serious dip, it'll be because of team injuries, Markov being out finally catching up to them, poor team play. If he continues as he is doing, or only slightly worse, he'll be a saviour in Montreal.
And all the credit to Price for putting together such a solid season so far, don't get me wrong here. But Halak, for whatever reason, is not getting any "breaks" in terms of evaluating his performance.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Halak traded to St Louis 
