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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2010 : 15:49:15
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I have to say, i'm with Pasty and Beans on this one. I'm getting really sick of hearing claims that Halak "single handedly" won those two series, blah blah blah. You simply cannont ignore, as Pasty mentioned, Cammalleri's contribution. Montreal would have been cooked without his goal scoring and while Halak might have kept them close in each game, he certainly wouldn't have come out victorious!
As for the comparison in Halak and Price's "breakout years"? Yes, true, Halak is/was more mature at 25 compared to Price at 18 or 19 when he had his. Keep this in mind though, Price is not even 24 yet! Unless he's lost his confidence to the point where he simply NEVER gets it back, he's still got the potential to turn his career back around.
I have to say, i like the package as Beans explained it in that really how much more do you think the Habs could have or should have gotten for Halak? I can understand that many think they should have traded Price but try not to look at it like that. Look at it another way. Let's pretend Price (for whatever reason) was untradeable and they needed to deal Halak. How much are those two playoff rounds and an Olympic tourny worth? I think the return they got for an RFA was good for both teams. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2010 : 17:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
for gods sake if Halak was alone on the ice the habs don`t win a single playoff came this frustrates me to no end,, halak was also pulled 3 times in the playoffs noone did anything single handidly ,,, take away 12 goals in 14 games and im sorry the caps sweep the habs too , add 6 shots on goal espcially in a power play situation and maybe Halak looks a little more Human really give your head a shake single handed yeah and i`m gonna make the NHL next year watch a game every once and while then talk hockey
Pasty
It's funny, you tell me to watch more hockey, yet you are the one claiming Carey Price had a better season than Halak. I think that so far all of us can agree Halak had a good season. I also think we can all agree that Carey Price is not as bad as he played last season, but he is far from pulling of what Halak did in my eyes. Pasty, look at what you said during the playoffs:
quote:
the habs are not winning the cup what im looking for as a fan is the positives for the futur Mike Cammalleri being a big time playoff performer brian gionta aswell Halak is a given and P.K Subban is looking damn good so thats what i am takeing from these playoffs with my red classes
Pasty
You said Halak is a given. I take that to mean that you were excited with his play, and that it is a given that he will be a big time performer. Nowhere here did you mention that Carey Price was a big performer.
Mr Matt Roberts said this:
quote:
Halak is playing out of his mind and very well could be taking the habs on a magical playoff run.
Now, as Beans said, Halak has not played enough hockey to be legitimately considered a great goaltender. But when I stack up Halak to Price, the choice is clear here. I think it is to everyone too.
I can see why Montreal traded Halak, mostly due to cap as I can see, but if I was the Habs I definitely would have tried to find some way to keep him as opposed to Price. Just my thoughts though. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 00:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
for gods sake if Halak was alone on the ice the habs don`t win a single playoff came this frustrates me to no end,, halak was also pulled 3 times in the playoffs noone did anything single handidly ,,, take away 12 goals in 14 games and im sorry the caps sweep the habs too , add 6 shots on goal espcially in a power play situation and maybe Halak looks a little more Human really give your head a shake single handed yeah and i`m gonna make the NHL next year watch a game every once and while then talk hockey
Pasty
It's funny, you tell me to watch more hockey, yet you are the one claiming Carey Price had a better season than Halak. I think that so far all of us can agree Halak had a good season. I also think we can all agree that Carey Price is not as bad as he played last season, but he is far from pulling of what Halak did in my eyes. Pasty, look at what you said during the playoffs:
quote:
the habs are not winning the cup what im looking for as a fan is the positives for the futur Mike Cammalleri being a big time playoff performer brian gionta aswell Halak is a given and P.K Subban is looking damn good so thats what i am takeing from these playoffs with my red classes
Pasty
You said Halak is a given. I take that to mean that you were excited with his play, and that it is a given that he will be a big time performer. Nowhere here did you mention that Carey Price was a big performer.
Mr Matt Roberts said this:
quote:
Halak is playing out of his mind and very well could be taking the habs on a magical playoff run.
Now, as Beans said, Halak has not played enough hockey to be legitimately considered a great goaltender. But when I stack up Halak to Price, the choice is clear here. I think it is to everyone too.
I can see why Montreal traded Halak, mostly due to cap as I can see, but if I was the Habs I definitely would have tried to find some way to keep him as opposed to Price. Just my thoughts though.
101....because Pasty said "Mike Cammalleri being a big time playoff performer brian gionta aswell Halak is a given " does this mean that if Gionta was traded for a prospect or two, you'd be all over him for that too??? I dunno, when i read that quote, between the bad grammar and the poor spelling, i'd say Pasty had prob had a few anyway but regardless, i don't think it backs up your Halak argument quite the same way you seem to? Maybe it's just me? 
I can't help but agree that this trade will be truly measured a few years down the road, however, is that really fair to say? I mean, any trade can be looked at that way and it's obvious that that's how a "winner" can be declared but unfortunately for those involved in making every trade, they don't have that luxury!!! Bottom line with trades and opinions on them is "would you make this trade today"? IMO, taking into consideration ALL the factors including RFA status, contracts, experience, performance, etc, it's a good trade "at this time" for both teams. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 06:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
[quote]
Beans, a lot of what you said does make sense. But I think you are seriously missing something here. Huet, nor Price, has ever really carried a team through adversity like Halak just did. Both have completely faltered in the NHL playoffs. Now I don't want to make this about stats, because Halak cannot be judged on stats alone.
Halak carried his team to the Conference Finals singlehandedly. Say what you want about Mike Cammalleri, Hall Gill's shot blocking, or Youppi! for all care. Without Halak, Washington sweeps Montreal.
Now I don't know if you watch hockey Beans, because if you did then you could not possibly make an argument towards the similarities of Michael Leighton and Jaroslav Halak. Stat wise you could, but that would be foolish, since if you had seen Halak down the stretch and in the Playoffs (along with the Olympics), then you could not possibly compare the two.
Leafsfan 101, please do not make comments that infer that peope are stupid, such as "I don't know if you watch Hockey." All it does is make people feel personally slighted and totally clouds the point that one is trying to make.
To answer your question, yes, I watch a ton of hockey. Have for the past 25+ years. I have watched players like Halak come and go and listened to comments about guys like Halak a ton more.
Do you think Halak is the first guy in hockey to do something like what he did this year?? Sure, Halak was amazing against Washington and I would agree that without him in net for that series it more than likely would have gone the other way. However, he was not nearly as good in the Pitt series and I would give as much credit to the Montreal defense for shutting down Crosby, Cammalleri for his scoring, and mostly Martin for his coaching. Where was Halak against Philly?? He was average or slightly above average. In fact, he was outplayed by that other guy I mentioned in Mike Leighton. Philly produced 125 shots in the 5 games and had 14 goals while Montreal produced a 141 shots and scored just 9.
I can compare Halak and Leighton head to head. One could argue that Halak played more than Leighton by the time they met but at the end of the day, Halak was outplayed in that series.
It's easy to say all the great things that Halak did but it's not like he walks on water. Regardless of what people might think, a couple of months of hot hockey does not make a guy an elite player.
Again, the point so many people are missing is that he was an RFA. He is unsigned. There is no insurance that Halak will not go to arbitration regardless of what St. Louis offers him and there is no insurance that Halak will not see an offer sheet from another team(although it's is unlikely).
I would not argue that I too would take Halak over Price. However, it is far closer than one thinks and both players are a risk. My argument from the start has been the trade itself. The deal is not lopsided in the least. Both teams appear to have gotten what they want/needed. St. Louis has a keeper to replace Mason who appears to be on this way out. Montreal cut off one of the head of thier 2-headed goalie system and picked up 2 forwards over 6' tall. At the end of the day, they lost against Philly because they were physically manhandled and could not breakthrough the beasts on defense for Philly.
The trade was exactly what each team inteneded it to be. Right or wrong is irrelevant. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 06/19/2010 06:37:03 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 09:29:43
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I do see what you guys are saying, and I can see the logic it makes. I agree with Alex here, in that this trade can only be measured a few seasons down the road.
It is said that the winner of a trade is the team which comes out of it with the best player. Right now, I would ay St. Louis won. But if Price can step up and be an elite goaltender, or at the very least a good one, and Eller becomes a dynamic player, then I could see how Montreal wins this trade.
I guess we will only really be able to judge this argument June 19th 2011, after another full season of hockey.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 18:35:13
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To me, it's not so much the return for Halak, but the timing of the deal.
It's just hard to digest, a team trading the goaltender who helped get them as far as they did. Nobody can deny that Halak helped the Habs get where they went. Did Cammaleri, Gionta and the D help? Most certainly. Did the Coaching? It was amazing, yes. It is definatley a team game.
But, without Halak... I don't see them out of the first round. Scoring or not.
So yeah, I just find it hard.
The guy who carried your team for the most part, is shipped out of town as soon as the chance opens up. In favor of a guy with still some potential, but who has faulted so many times now. Mainly, his lack of effort and heart.
I find Price talented. But, I also find that he is not focused, takes his spot in the NHL for granted, and just generally seems to not have the emotion and effort needed.
But, yet he keeps getting the chance. When is it time to just say, as great as he could be... perhaps it's not going to happen here. And, go with the guy who puts all that needed effort and heart in to it, that's winning you the games NOW, and perhaps still in to the future.
To me, Halak should have stayed. Price should have left. No matter the return difference. Halak was worth more to Montreal at this time, than Price. And for that, you keep him. He's still young enough.
The return is fine to me. I just don't like the deal because, they may have moved the heart and soul of the team away.
Irvine/prez. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 21:09:44
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Timing schmiming. Everyone knew that Montreal would not keep both. Trading him now rather than at the draft or after produced the best value.
Let's not kid ourselves here, hockey is a business and players are assets, not people. The decision to go with Price was possibly made a long time ago and as Halak played through the first 2 series, Montreal was happy the value was going up and up.
The day Gretzky got traded, literally weeks after winning the Cup in Edmonton, was the day I learned(as should have most of you) that players are not people in the world of hockey.
Everyone is an asset. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 21:33:04
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You're right Beans, the decision was made a long time ago . . . when Gainey drafted Price in the first round (5th overall if I remember correctly). He was going to be the guy until the botter end.
And I do see a bitter end . . . and I fail to see how any of you in the "fair trade" camp can justify how one would choose Price over Halak at this time. Current play, performance in the playoffs, overall demeanor/confidence, it all points to Halak as the better goalie to pick. All of these arguments about how "well, he could become s***e a year or two from now" are just strawman arguments which totally ignore the fact that RIGHT NOW, and CAREER-WISE IN THE PLAYOFFS, HALAK IS BETTER THAN PRICE.
The argument I continue to make is that, considering that goaltending is the most important position on a hockey team (this year's playoffs did not change that, sorry), why would you ship off the better one and keep the one you sat for the last two months of the regular season plus the playoffs? Even if the difference is marginal and the cost of each is dramatically different . . . you keep the better goalie, unless he is prohibitively expensive, no?
And yes, without Halak, Montreal is out first round. With Price in net, it's a sweep!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2010 : 15:12:56
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I don't believe I was every arguing if I would keep Halak or Price. In fact, I said at least twice that I would have personally kept Halak.
What my argument has been is that the deal is market value. RFA goalie, 25ish years old, around 100 games in the NHL and one 10 week stretch of wicked hockey
=
1st rounder (Eller) and 3rd round(Schultz)
Fair Trade
Now, looking back at Price specifically, he went from Hero to Goat in less than 1 season. Why is it so hard to see the potential return of the hero. There is no doubt in virtually anyone's mind that Price has the chops (included Giguere in an interview the other day), so we can all talk until we are blue in the face about which should have stayed. However, only time will really tell this monster's story.
I think we can also all agree that any time Montreal loses a close game or Price lets in a softie, this deal will be brought up. |
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Guest2294
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Posted - 06/20/2010 : 18:50:31
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| Leafsfan 101...your earlier comments are absolutely right, Goal-tending is about more than stats. Any1 with any common hockey sense can see that Halak is a dam good goalie. There is NOOOO comparsion between halak and Leighton ....how many bad goals did halak let in ?? 2 so-so maybe. Leighton was an embarrassment to the flyers in the final, swiss-cheeze, if halak was in goal for the flyers they would have won the cup. Stats are what they are, stats, every1 has heard the term, big game goalies, do you think this comes from stats ?? this is from skill, determination, calmness, and a willingness to win.....this is halak, from what he has shown so far in his career. This guy has only played when Price played horrible, now he has a new team, HIS TEAM with full reigns. See where Montreal ends up next year with no halak, their fans know where, thats why every1 in Montreal is so pissed. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 00:11:55
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Beans, i think this is the problem here. The difference between "was it a fair trade?" and "whick goalie should Montreal have traded?". I'm with you, the trade, all things considered, was good and fair for both teams!
I'm guessing Montreal believes that Price can mature and become a top goalie. Time will tell i suppose but he's still young enough to make a serious statement, that's for certain.
Either way, anyone discussing this really needs to make sure they're on the same page as those they're discussing it with! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 06:33:46
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Ok Beans, fair enough . . . I still don't think it was quite the fair trade value that you may think it was, but it's not that far away really, so I don't really want to quibble about that.
To me though, the key to this trade being a very bad move for the Canadiens starts and ends with confidence for Price, and how as you said every loss, every bad goal, will inevitably have this trade brought up and Price will be (fairly or unfairly) raked over the coals. I mean, Price already has confidence issues, and he obviously wasn't the starter for the last half of the season or the playoffs, so how does the management expect him to suffer the wickedly brutal Montreal media after a 3 game losing streak with a couple of bad goals? 'Cause it's bound to happen, and when it does, I see a total breakdown for Price, judging from his mental make-up so far.
It's all coming up roses so far as a Leafs fan!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 06:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
for gods sake if Halak was alone on the ice the habs don`t win a single playoff came this frustrates me to no end,, halak was also pulled 3 times in the playoffs noone did anything single handidly ,,, take away 12 goals in 14 games and im sorry the caps sweep the habs too , add 6 shots on goal espcially in a power play situation and maybe Halak looks a little more Human really give your head a shake single handed yeah and i`m gonna make the NHL next year watch a game every once and while then talk hockey
Pasty
Ok...first off, any goalie looks "more human" on the penalty kill, simple, if the other team out numbers yours, there's gunna be more quality chances, thus, resulting in a higher chance of a goal against... lol
Also, if people in Montreal, specifically Jacques Martin had confidence in Price, would he not have been in net for the playoffs? Or for the final stretch of the season for that matter?...Martin and the rest of the Habs saw that Halak was their #1 last year, Price had the ball, and he didn't just drop it, he turned it over...Halak picked up the ball and ran with it.
Wait!!! We all over looked the one, and only reason Halak was booted out of town, correction, run out of town for nothing...he's not a french speaking Canadian kid! Hmmmm...similar to how Koivu was treated near the end of his tenure in Montreal no? |
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Guest5052
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Posted - 06/21/2010 : 14:31:56
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Well, I was surprised at the trade, again not because I didnt expect the habs to trade one or the other or because I was surprised that Halak was the one that got traded, in fact, I kinda had that suspicion.
I was surprised that they traded with St. Louis first of all. I would have thought that there were a few teams that needed a goalie more (and would have paid a higher price) - Philly comes to mind.
I was also surprised that they went for prospects without trying to get a bona fide player - admittedly, I dont know much about these prospects, but I would have thought that Halak could get you something more, although not the world, as people have pointed out, he has yet to prove himself over a long period (although he was very very good these playoffs).
In short, I just would have thought that they could get more trading with a more desperate team.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 15:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
Wait!!! We all over looked the one, and only reason Halak was booted out of town, correction, run out of town for nothing...he's not a french speaking Canadian kid! Hmmmm...similar to how Koivu was treated near the end of his tenure in Montreal no?
Puh-lease!!
Saku Koivu was treated like a GOD in Montreal for his entire career. He was not mistreated in any way by the team. There comes a time in every players career where they are not the value they need to be to keep paying them them money. The Habs did not disrespect Koivu by dumping him at the deadline of the last year of his contract for what ever they could get. They allowed him to play though his time and finish his contract as a Canadien.
What the heck is wrong with that. In fact, I would say in this day and age of the UFA, the Habs did the classy thing with Koivu.
As far as the "French Canadian Kid," last time I checked, Williams Lake, BC was about as far away as you can get from French Speaking. That is where Cary Price was born and grew up.
Not even close. |
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Jumbo Joe Rocks
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
410 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 11:58:18
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Pierre Gauthier knew he wasnt going to re-sign so they traded him for 2, 6 feet prospects one of them is supposed to be pretty good.Free Agency starts in a day St Louis didnt sign him so who said he stays in St Louis.More goes on behind the scenes than we know.
GO SHARKS GO |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 16:20:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jumbo Joe Rocks
Pierre Gauthier knew he wasnt going to re-sign so they traded him for 2, 6 feet prospects one of them is supposed to be pretty good.Free Agency starts in a day St Louis didnt sign him so who said he stays in St Louis.More goes on behind the scenes than we know.
GO SHARKS GO
i have told you this 1000 times he is a RFA not a FA you cant just sign him you have to send him an offer sheet whichj his current club has first option to match so whatever contract he is offerd st louis can match it and keep him, or they let him go and get a 1rst second and third round pick for him,,, and if the team giving the offer sheet doesn;t have their picks anymore they cant put out the offer sheet all this to say the team owing the rights to a RFA are almost guranteed to sign them unless they decide not too
Pasty |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 11:09:12
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It's always nice to look back on things like this and see just how everything turns out.
I am curious to see how many people who so vehemently declared this trades as a huge mistake for Montreal still feel the same??
I am curious to see how many people still see Halak as an elite goalie with his season shaping up to be his worst in save % and GAA and is 2 games under .500 as a starter on a team that was highly touted at the start of the season??
I am not trying to rub salt in those opinions. Hindsight is 20/20. But I am interested to see if people's opinions have changed now that it's been some time since Halak's brilliance in the playoffs and Price has had a chance to prove himself. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 11:36:59
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Montreal vs Wash...last season playoffs
No contest, Wash was far, far, superior
Halak STOLE the show
Montreal vs Pitts
Very even series i thought
Halak didn`t have to steal the series, Montreal played with them
Beans when you look at Halaks numbers / wins this season, you have to look at the team also. Sure St.Louis was favored to have a good season but with D.Perron missing 34 games, T.J Oshie missing 31 and A.Mcdonald out for 20 already, no wonder the team record isn`t as expected.
If you take 3 of the top 6 forwards off any team, that teams playoff hopes are vastly impacted.
Price is having a good season but he is playing on ( in my opinion, injuries having a factor here ) a far better team this season. Plus Price is playing with a very, very, defensive team concept under J. Martin....this system does keep a lot of shots to the outside when implemented properly. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 13:15:02
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quote:
I am curious to see how many people still see Halak as an elite goalie with his season shaping up to be his worst in save % and GAA and is 2 games under .500 as a starter on a team that was highly touted at the start of the season??
They were highly touted...until they got completely decimated by injuries. The STL team playing now is not the same as the one that started they season, and they are not deep enough to withstand the plague of key injuries they've had this year. And it shows.
I don't look at Halak's performance as the reason STL is doing poorly right now
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Edited by - nuxfan on 01/17/2011 13:15:46 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 13:26:02
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Weak Duke, weak. I expect more from you!!
Firstly, the most important defensive player on the ice is always the goalie. Secondly, I can't recall the last time a top 6 forward had much impact on the GAA or save % of a keeper. They might impact the total wins, but not the goalie's performance. Finally, it's is a subjective argument regarding the quality of shots a goalie receives. There is definitely something to say about a Martin coached team, however Price has a better GAA and a higher save percentage facing 2 more shots a game than Halak.
And saying Price is having a good season is an understatement. Considering the kid plays in the fishbowl of the hockey universe and he was all but written off by the entire hockey world is tough enough. What did he do?? Nothing but come out to tie for the lead the league in wins, top 5 in shutouts, and top 10 in GAA, save %. Maybe not today but at one point he was the front runner for the Vezina.
I give all the credit in the world to Price for stepping up his game. Say what you will about the Montreal defense, he is a big part of that equation. To face the adversity with the media, the fans, and even his coach and team mates in the past and perform the way he has at just 23 yrs of age??? Sick. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 14:19:23
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Duke... Have you herd of Andrei Markov or Perhaps Josh Gorges... Price is missing both these guys and their play effects price's a lot more than a forwards no excuses,,, and i;m stil willing to bt Eller turns into exactly the kind of player Plekanec is ,,, i like Halak but would you put a 4millon $ cap hit for this gy,, i wouldn't
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 18:20:30
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Pasty i hear you but wasn`t Markov out when Halak was standing on his head ? Markov is a non-factor when comparing these two goalies performances since he wasn`t there for either. I know he is a major player for the Habs but they have adjusted without him. Didn`t J.Georges just get hurt ? i don`t think he has missed that many games has he.
Just 2 more shots per game Beans, but its also the quality of shots that matter also. When the Red Army came over here years ago they would put up 15 shots per game with 15 scoring chances.
You say these injuries have no effect on save % and GAA. I think they do somewhat because overall team play just isn`t there. Less puck control ( with your dominant players out ) leads to more agressive attack by the opposing team thus throwing every aspect of your game out of whack.
Anyway both are good goalies in my opinion. The jury is still out on how Price will handle the rest of the season, lotta hockey to play yet. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 21:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Pasty i hear you but wasn`t Markov out when Halak was standing on his head ? Markov is a non-factor when comparing these two goalies performances since he wasn`t there for either. I know he is a major player for the Habs but they have adjusted without him. Didn`t J.Georges just get hurt ? i don`t think he has missed that many games has he.
Just 2 more shots per game Beans, but its also the quality of shots that matter also. When the Red Army came over here years ago they would put up 15 shots per game with 15 scoring chances.
You say these injuries have no effect on save % and GAA. I think they do somewhat because overall team play just isn`t there. Less puck control ( with your dominant players out ) leads to more agressive attack by the opposing team thus throwing every aspect of your game out of whack.
Anyway both are good goalies in my opinion. The jury is still out on how Price will handle the rest of the season, lotta hockey to play yet.
You are right about one think your top six forwards do tend to control the puck a lot more so it does have the puck in the hands of the opposing team a lot more often,, and Gorges hasn't played since before Christmas, i'll find the exact date but it was annouced he was out for the season recently however he hadn't played for a couple weeks before that annoucement,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 21:47:12
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Price has played fantastic so far this year, there is no arguing that. Halak's numbers are less than exceptional.
There is always an element of gambling where young goaltenders are involved. How many times have we seen rookie goalies show up, make a big impact for a month or two and then fade back to average? I don't have an exact number, but it's a lot. No doubt part of that has to do with all the scouts watching every scrap of game footage they can get their hands on. If a goal tender has a major flaw in his style, it will, eventually, be exploited. As shaky as Price was for times last season and as great as Halak played bailing him out in the playoffs, Montreal was probably wise to keep the goalie they were familiar with. They knew Price was on a slump, but they also knew he had the chops to be a solid starter.
Halak got hot, probably benefiting from the fact that nobody knew his game, and it was probably tough to trade him, but it was the right move. Maybe people in the Montreal organization who would have seen more of him than anybody else even knew he was playing above his level when they traded him. If that was the case, it made perfect sense to trade him while everybody was still impressed.
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
But with goaltending, who knows. In a year the situation could already have reveresed itself two or three times. There are only a handful of goaltenders in the NHL who play solid year in and year out, and they are the best asset a team can have. Everybody else makes do with streaky performances, or outright mediocrity. As a Leaf fan I can only hope Price isn't becoming one of those few. Miller on a division rival is annoying enough.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 22:53:12
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quote:
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
I don't think many people appreciate the injuries and adversity that STL have had to deal with this year - and how well Halak has played despite that. A year in snapshot:
- beginning of the season until Nov 5: Halak doing great, STL one of the surprise teams in the west. They are 8-1-1, Halak is sporting some ridiculous GAA and SV%, 3 SO. They've beat some big teams - PHI, CHI, PIT, SJ. Halak is the main reason why. Vezina talk starts up. Alex already planning his gloating over Beans.
- Nov 5-Nov 11: STL lose Perron, Oshie, Jackman in one week to significant injuries. For MTL fans, imagine losing Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges.
- Nov 12-Dec 4: Halak goes 2-6-2, and suffers some pretty lopsided losses. Halak is inconsistent - they get blown out a few games, but they lose some 2-1, 3-2 games as well.
- Dec 4-15: STL loses MacDonald, Pietroangelo, Johnson (the latter 2 are now back). For MTL fans, imagine now losing Gomez, Hamrlik, and Subban (the latter 2 for a couple of weeks), on top of still being without Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges. Halak goes 2-1-1, Halak playing amazing hockey to keep them in games.
- Dec 15 to now: Halak has gone 4-7 since then, has been inconsistent. Alex crying in his beer, Beans counting the days until bet is won.
STL is positively limping through the season right now - 3 of their top 6 forwards are out, and have been out for more than 2 months. Important dmen have missed significant time. Through that, Halak has posted a decent 16-14-4 record, 2.54 GAA, .910 SV%, 4 SO.
You can argue all you like about how good goalies should be able to get their teams through tough times, or how your best player has to be your goalie. I argue that no team in the NHL has had to deal with injuries like STL has this year, and Halak is simply a victim of having nearly nothing in front of him. Price is sporting better numbers (23-15-3, 2.35 GAA, .920 SV%, 4SO), and is having one hell of a season so far, but he has also been on the far better, and far healthier team this year. Does that make him a better goalie?
I still say too early to tell. I certainly would like to see what Halak can do with a regular and healthy STL team in front of him. Would we see more of the goalie that started the season 8-1-1? |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/17/2011 22:53:43 |
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie
157 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 23:11:03
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Halak is obviously a great goaltender, and I agree that his team (injuries) isn't helping his numbers. But only time will tell us if the Canadiens made a good choice picking Price over Halak.
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 01:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
I don't think many people appreciate the injuries and adversity that STL have had to deal with this year - and how well Halak has played despite that. A year in snapshot:
- beginning of the season until Nov 5: Halak doing great, STL one of the surprise teams in the west. They are 8-1-1, Halak is sporting some ridiculous GAA and SV%, 3 SO. They've beat some big teams - PHI, CHI, PIT, SJ. Halak is the main reason why. Vezina talk starts up. Alex already planning his gloating over Beans.
- Nov 5-Nov 11: STL lose Perron, Oshie, Jackman in one week to significant injuries. For MTL fans, imagine losing Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges.
- Nov 12-Dec 4: Halak goes 2-6-2, and suffers some pretty lopsided losses. Halak is inconsistent - they get blown out a few games, but they lose some 2-1, 3-2 games as well.
- Dec 4-15: STL loses MacDonald, Pietroangelo, Johnson (the latter 2 are now back). For MTL fans, imagine now losing Gomez, Hamrlik, and Subban (the latter 2 for a couple of weeks), on top of still being without Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges. Halak goes 2-1-1, Halak playing amazing hockey to keep them in games.
- Dec 15 to now: Halak has gone 4-7 since then, has been inconsistent. Alex crying in his beer, Beans counting the days until bet is won.
STL is positively limping through the season right now - 3 of their top 6 forwards are out, and have been out for more than 2 months. Important dmen have missed significant time. Through that, Halak has posted a decent 16-14-4 record, 2.54 GAA, .910 SV%, 4 SO.
You can argue all you like about how good goalies should be able to get their teams through tough times, or how your best player has to be your goalie. I argue that no team in the NHL has had to deal with injuries like STL has this year, and Halak is simply a victim of having nearly nothing in front of him. Price is sporting better numbers (23-15-3, 2.35 GAA, .920 SV%, 4SO), and is having one hell of a season so far, but he has also been on the far better, and far healthier team this year. Does that make him a better goalie?
I still say too early to tell. I certainly would like to see what Halak can do with a regular and healthy STL team in front of him. Would we see more of the goalie that started the season 8-1-1?
Nuxxy (can i call you that  ) i couldn't agree more infact you could almost put their season's on par right now between Price and Halak, If the shoe were on the other foot and say the habs were down Cammalleri Plekanec and Gionta i would be makeing the same argument in Price's favor, the kicker and why i say the habs win in this deal is A. They have an equally good goalie B. They got a very good potential top six player NHL ready and C. Price cost almost 2 million less per season against the cap, in a cap world you simply could not keep Both goalies and Thomas Plekanec.. i'll take Price and Pleak over Halak and Price anyday!
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 06:29:28
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STL has dealt with injuries, no doubt. And there is a significant impact to a team who loses a bunch of player to injury. No need to tell me that, Edmonton lost nearly 500 man-games to injury last year.
However, I don't believe that the man games lost to STL has any significant impact on Halak's play. Sure, it will impact his win/loss but I fail to see how MacDonald, Oshie, or Perron have an impact on Halak having his lowest save % in his career?? It's like saying Broduer is having an off year in Jersey because Parise is not scoring goals??How it is that guys like Price and Bobrovsky do not see a change in their play without their #1 defenseman in the line up but Halak is impacted by missing top 6 forwards???
Frankly, I think people are making excuses and grasping at straws. I see it at Halak was unbelievable hot last season and this year is more of what his actual talent level is. He is a solid, possible top 15ish goalie in the NHL. He is not elite by any stretch and his abilities were over-inflated by a hot streak last season. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 07:59:45
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Reading through this thread, it slays me how short some peoples memory is. I have said this before, and I will continue to say it, the biggest knock on Halak was always his consistency. His best shelf life is 5 games. That is the reason why he never grabbed a solid hold on the starters job in Montreal. Did he rise above for a while? You bet, but many pro athletes do just that and seize the moment.
As was mentioned, people also seem to for get that Price was getitng shelled for 40 a game and STILL keeping it close, the problem wasn't him, it was lack of goals. Further, have people forgotten that he has gone to an allstar game? Yes, I know, there are people who are going to say 'ya but he was voted in by his fans,' maybe so, but his numbers at that point had him deserving to be in. The controversy then wasn't Price, it was Komisarek.
Taking a look at the numbers now, it seems to me that Price WAS absolutely the right goalie to take. Price is better then Halak in both save% and GAA. not to mention Price is leading the league in wins. And hey lookit that! Hes going back to the ASG!
Right move by the Habs hands down. Price in younger, has more upside, AND they got some decent prospects. As he told the freaking out fans during the preseason: "Chill." |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:03:37
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| Wow, and I'm agreeing with Beans. The injury arguement is nonsense. The Habs have not only lost their best d-man, but argueably their best two d-men, and yet they have won 4 of their last 5 since they lost Geoges. Every team out there has to deal with injuries. Its a lame arguement. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:14:38
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quote:
However, I don't believe that the man games lost to STL has any significant impact on Halak's play. Sure, it will impact his win/loss but I fail to see how MacDonald, Oshie, or Perron have an impact on Halak having his lowest save % in his career?? It's like saying Broduer is having an off year in Jersey because Parise is not scoring goals??How it is that guys like Price and Bobrovsky do not see a change in their play without their #1 defenseman in the line up but Halak is impacted by missing top 6 forwards???
Do your top-6 forwards only score goals? Perron is one of the better defensive forwards in the league, and is their #1 PK forward. Oshie and MacDonald are also defensively important.
Actually, I think equally important were losses of Jackman and Polak. Those guys are the rock solid stay-at-home dmen for STL. Polak was out from Oct 23 to Dec 20, Jackman from Nov 4 to 24. If you look at Halak's worst games this year, you can find most of them between early Nov and late Dec. In games where both Polak and Jackman were in the lineup, Halak has only allowed 4 goals or more 3 times, and has a pretty decent record.
As for other teams - who says PHI didn't suffer when Pronger went on the shelf? In the first 5 games after Pronger went down, PHI went 2-3, and allowed 21 goals against, 20 of them in 4 games. They have since recovered, largely due to the depth of their defense and their team in general - including their goalies. I don't think anyone thinks that STL is a deeper team than PHI. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 10:47:12
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I'm mostly with nuxfan on this one . . . and he already made a great post on the injuries, how Halak has done during the season, and the stats to back it up.
There is no denying that Price has played very well so far, but he'll have to keep it up as Montreal's defence has started to look shaky . . .
Let's face it: Halak's .910 save % and 2.54 GAA on St. Louis is easily compareable to Price's .920 % and 2.35 GAA on Montreal.
It's a long season . . . and of interest to me is Price's performance when the pressure starts to mount in Montreal regarding keeping a playoff spot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:11:44
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I'm mostly with nuxfan on this one . . . and he already made a great post on the injuries, how Halak has done during the season, and the stats to back it up.
There is no denying that Price has played very well so far, but he'll have to keep it up as Montreal's defence has started to look shaky . . .
Let's face it: Halak's .910 save % and 2.54 GAA on St. Louis is easily compareable to Price's .920 % and 2.35 GAA on Montreal.
It's a long season . . . and of interest to me is Price's performance when the pressure starts to mount in Montreal regarding keeping a playoff spot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
How is that?? Help me understand. I get the injuries, but I can not see where anyone can tell me how a top 6 forward changes the way a goalie plays hockey??
Let's take a look at their defensive groups for a second:
STL
Pietrangelo, Colaiacovo, Johnson, Brewer, and Jackman all playing 35 or more games. Polak/Strachan with 20 games each. +
MONT
Hamrlik, Subban, Spacek, Georges, Gill, and Pickard all playing 31 games or more. Weber with 17 games.
Now, who can honestly say that either is better than the other. Adding Wisnewski to the Montreal fold might give them and advantage now, but not for the early part of the year. Again, I get the coaching too, but let's not act like STL plays a purely offensive game either.
We can agree to disagree but I still fail to see how injuries to the top 6 forward positions have any impact on a goalie and I fail to see Montreal as a significantly more defensive talented team. Montreal's low GA is largely based on Price's play. He has faced more shots than any other goalie other than Hillar and Ward. On the current pace, Price will face 300+ more shots than Halak, have a better save % and a better GAA.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 01/18/2011 11:12:40 |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:40:54
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Price has also been on the ice more than Halak.
Halak played 35 games to this point
963 SOG
Price played 41 games to this point
1182 SOG
Thomas played 32 games to this point
1041 SOG
Wow, TT has seen more rubber than Goodyear.....
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:47:23
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quote:
How is that?? Help me understand. I get the injuries, but I can not see where anyone can tell me how a top 6 forward changes the way a goalie plays hockey??
Forget the "top-6". The loss of a strong defensive forward (or defensive dmen) doesn't have an effect on the number and/or quality of chances that the opposition might get? Doesn't have a diminishing effect on a team's PK ability? |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 12:19:48
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Beano,, keep in mind i agree with you to an extent, and since you are the stat man you might be able to find the time of possesions stats for St Louis, but It seems to me the better your top six the more time you spend in the offensive zone the more time you spend in the offensive zone the less time you spend in your end.. catch my drift...
Now the fact that Price sees more shots and has a signifigantly better GAA and sv % (at this point in the season Halak has to have a GAA of nearly 2 for the rest of the year to bring it down to where Price's is,, After 30 or so games its hard to bing down your GAA) Price is a top 5 goalie in the NHL this year (please remember i said this year) Halak is probably in the top 15 right now,, i buy the injury thing,, but not to the point to bring Halak up to Price's level
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 12:48:33
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"Beano" and "Nuxxy"! Love it! What do i get, Alexei? Maybe it should be Ale? Cuz with those injuries in StL, it's looking more and more like my $25 will be going to a dozen "Ale's" for "Beano"!!! Lol...
As far as Price vs Halak, i've liked Price all along but did think and still do, that Halak can and is a solid starter! The injuries are tough to tell as far as impact. I see both sides to the argument but agree somewhat with Beans in that save % is more of an indication that wins and losses.
Either way, both these guys are doing well, perhaps Price moreso if for no other reason than the pressure. Slozo is interested in seeing how he handles it down the stretch, i argue, how much more pressure can there be than the first ten games this season following the controversial move to trade Halak? He handled that pretty darn well! |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 02:09:41
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Costly game for Montreal last night, Cammi, Pax and Subban all went down with injuries. Subban came back, but Cammi is out 2 - 3 weeks with separated shoulder and Pax left on a hospital gurny hooked up to IV........ Looks like Price's challenge is on!
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 08:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Costly game for Montreal last night, Cammi, Pax and Subban all went down with injuries. Subban came back, but Cammi is out 2 - 3 weeks with separated shoulder and Pax left on a hospital gurny hooked up to IV........ Looks like Price's challenge is on!
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke
yeah i was going to say now the injury situation is now on par we'll have a real life sample, to prove or disprove points of view
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Topic |
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Halak traded to St Louis 
