| Author |
 Topic  |
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2010 : 18:36:38
|
wow slozo, you just schooled me. I had no idea hitting and blocked shots statistics were used to mesure hits and blocked shots. I am now enlightened on this subject and agree with you 100%.
Ok Seriously, let me break down what i am trying say so you can understand. I get that hitting blocking shots are an important part of a defenseman's job. However, just because a player is near the top in one or both of these categories, does not mean he is a phenomenal defenseman, the statistics really have no connection to a defenseman's skill and shutdown ability.
And your statistics don't prove anything, like nuxfan stated, it's plausible that volchenkov was matched up against crosby throughout the series. and even if he wasn't, if the senator's coaching staff didn't think he was up to shutting the opposing team's best player down, then that really says something about his defensive abilities. Though I'm almost positive that's not the case and that volchenkov was paired up against crosby throughout the series.
And Beans, I am not rating volchenkov's game on this one series. I was merely using it as an example, seeing as the playoffs are the time when shut down d-men are called upon most.
And yes, I realise there are nostatistics that can effectively mesure a defenseman's passing ability. But if you'd pull your nose out of the boxscores and watch these guys play once and awhile. You'd see clearly the difference in puck-moving skills between these playersis enormous.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
 |
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 05:51:33
|
I really hate it when people put words in my mouth . . . the strawman arguments are endless though when one is never willing to concede a point.
Flying V - you stated that hits and blocked shots ARE NOT USEFUL STATISTICS AT ALL. This is a ridiculous statement, as of course like all statistical data it does not give an overview of the player's worth . . . but it certainly does indicate a couple of important factors in a defensive defenceman's worth. And you yourself admit that hitting and blocking shots are an important part of the job . . . IMPORTANT, you said. Then how could the statistics used to definitely measure two important parts of the job be USELESS ?
< insert snarky comment here, never admitting lack of logic or contradicting statements>
I never used the stats to prove Volchenkov was the best player in the league defensively - he isn't. He is a tough hombre that change the way others play though, because he is a very solid hitter and very effective shot blocker, and he finishes every check. IMHO, Ottawa will really miss him, and their goals against will suffer as a result . . . again, it's the intangibles of him putting a bit of fear in the oponents when they streak down the wing, not his especially amazing skating ability or takeaway ability.
And if you look at the playoffs with his match-up against Crosby, he was playing second pairing minutes - go look it up yourself, ya lazy bums. Do you think second pairing minutes would be against Crosby mostly, or Malkin?
Volchenkov is not, and I never argued that he was (and neither did Beans, actually) a pure shut-down defenceman. We stated that he was a "defensive defenceman", and a very good one.
The second most watched team by myself over the last three years behind Toronto is Ottawa, and I have seen a lot of Volchenkov. Enough to know that Ottawa will really miss him, so I am glad to see him leave town.
And I'd take him over Hamhuis in a second. Not because he is so much better, but because what he brings to the game is a lot rarer than what Hamhuis does . . . and he changes the outlook of the defence, and how your opopnent plays against you. The only argument against my opinion so far that I have found to have validity is the injuries thing, and that is certainly a fair point against Volchenkov. But I will stick to my original point of view nonetheless.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 08:28:55
|
Did you seriously just challenge me to watch more hockey?? Oh, my wife is not going to be happy with you!!
With all due respect to all of my PUH pals, I would be hard pressed to find a guy who watches more hockey than I do. As I have stated countless time in countless previous posts, stats do not indicate how good or not good a players is. however they do point one in the right direction. It is no fluke that the best offensive players one the ice when you watch the game are almost always the same guys at the top of the scoresheet. It's also no surprise when the best defensive players in the game block the most shots, play top minutes against the opposition's top guys, have higher take aways than give aways, and although not offensively productive still have respectable +/- numbers.
It's just the way it goes.
One has to remember that no one is calling Hamhuis a hack. In fact, I have personally discussed his virtues. He does nothing really poorly. He moves the puck well, he plays solid positionally, he is solid at removing the man from the puck(both physically and with his stick) and he can play in offensive situations too. However, he does all of this good and none of it amazingly. He is not tops in league or near tops in the league at anything. He is one of the better #3 defensemen in the league.
On the other hand, Volchenkov is brilliant at shot blocking, hitting, and forcing the oppositions elite players to have to work harder and change their style to produce. He does that as good or better than any defensemen in the NHL today.
(As a side note, none of that has anything to do with stats!!)
So, as the thread suggestions, which player would you prefer?? I take Volchenkov because he is brilliant at what he does. There are literally 25+ NHL defensemen that do what Hamhuis does. There are literally 5ish NHL defensemen that do what Volchekov does. |
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:45:31
|
Ok Slozo, you got me, useless is maybe to strong of word. I should say these stats are overated, seeing as the best defensive d-men( who, incidentally play shut down roles) in the league are not the defensemen who lead in these categories.
Besides, Volchenkov is really not the defensive rarity you guys think he is, defensive meatheads who possese the hitting and shot blocking combination he does are a dime a dozen in this league. Albeit, very few of them to do it as well as he does but still. I doubt the sens will sink to the league's basement in his absence. In fact, Volchenkov's teammate, Andy Sutton, finished the season with more hits and blocked shots than Volchenkov did. And you're right come to think of it, it wasn't Volchenkov being matched up against crosby, it was sutton! Let the search for a new shut-down d-man in ottawa end now.
I am not saying volchenkov is bad, far from it, he is excellent at what he does. But i personally place smart, puck moving, two-way defensemen like Hamhuis ahead of guys like Volchenkov.
In summary, Volchenkov is a very good defensive defensemen, but, like Hamhuis, he is replaceable. And I value what he brings to the game more than what volchenkov does.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 15:07:38
|
quote:
Besides, Volchenkov is really not the defensive rarity you guys think he is, defensive meatheads who possese the hitting and shot blocking combination he does are a dime a dozen in this league
Flying-V, who are your top-5 defensive dmen? |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 10:12:02
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by slozo[/i]
Volchenkov is not, and I never argued that he was (and neither did Beans, actually) a pure shut-down defenceman. We stated that he was a "defensive defenceman", and a very good one.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Not a big deal really Slozo, but earlier in this thread, both you and Beans did in fact classify Volchenkov as a top shut down guy.
Slozo: "However, as mentioned, when talking about top shut down d-men, Volchenkov is on the very short list."
Beans: " As Slozo said, Volchenkov might not bring any offense to the table, but he is also remarkable at what he does. Top 5 in the league as a shut down defensemen."
Sorry for the poor "quoting" but my BOLD and Italics feature seam to have vanished from my options???
Regardless, some of the discussion on here has wandered from "who'd you rather have between Hamhuis and Volchenkov" to "is Hamhuis overpaid". Market value, as has been mentioned is a difficult thing to measure because, like real estate, it fluctuates. IMO, and yes, it's only mine, i feel Hamhuis is being paid pretty fairly and if he's at all overpaid, it's ever so slightly. I know his deal was signed during the free agent "frenzy" and therefore deals are sometimes inflated and guys get overpaid but if in reality, there really were a few other teams offering more (and he gave the Nucks a discount), then really how overpaid can he be???
Anyway, funny part is, i voted Volchenkov! Only reason i did really was because we already have some offensive dmen (Erhoff, Salo, Edler) to play the PP and help on the attack and with likely losing Mitchell, i feel Volchenkov would have served the Canucks better.
Keep in mind, the original question had nothing to do with "whick player is better" or "which player is under or over paid", it was simply, "which of the two would you rather have on YOUR team"? Assuming "my team" implies the Canucks, i'd have taken Volchenkov at this point in time. If i were starting an expansion team, i'd prob lean to the more all around game of Hamhuis.
Hopefully this makes sense and isn't "clouded by Orcas"?
|
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 10:37:32
|
These guys are not purely defensive, but in terms of who i'd like to have out there against the other team's best players my top five would resemble this:
-Zdeno Chara
-Duncan Keith
-Nick Lidstrom
-Scott Niedermayer*
-Chris Pronger
This list is just off the top of my head though, why do you ask nuxfan? I don't really see the relevance of this.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 14:08:29
|
Well, Flying V I would agree with you almost 100% if you were creating a list of the best overall defensemen in the NHL today. However, when you are talking about pure defensive players, my list would include the likes of Volchenkov, Michalek, Poti, Andy Greene, etc.
I don't really have the time to nail a top 5 specifically, but those are the kinds of guys I would put on the list. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 15:16:24
|
Flying-V, thanks for the list. My point in asking was to see what your interpretation of "defensive dman" was, as I think you are overlooking important stats that defensemen are measured by.
I agree with Beans, you have put together a list of very impressive overall defensemen, and not defensive specialists. Of your list, I would take Chara and Pronger in that role, who happen to be elite in that they are very steady defensively but put up big offensive numbers. Suffice to say, neither Volchenkov or Hamhuis would ever be mistaken for one of those 2 defensemen.
The list that Beans put together is more of the defensive specialist (BTW, I would normally add Mitchell near the top of that list), the one that you put out against the other team's top PP, the one that is regularly and consistently matched against the other team's top lines. The one that you tell "go out and shut down ", before every game. And they do it all, every game, consistently across the season. I don't think that that sort of defenseman is a dime a dozen in today's NHL.
I still stick by my original assessment. I'd rather have both on my team. |
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 09:54:58
|
"Of your list, I would take Chara and Pronger in that role, who happen to be elite in that they are very steady defensively but put up big offensive numbers."
Nuxfan, are you implying that niedermayer,keith and lidstrom are not steady defensively?
Because personally i would much rather have one those guys matched up against the other team's top line than Tom Poti or Willie Mitchell.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 11:25:43
|
Ya, but flying-v nobody said anything that the top guys aren't good defensively, but they can't be on all the time.
You need journeyman defensemen to kill your penalties, to block shots, etc. Only Pronger from your list makes the top 30 in the NHL in blocked shots last year.
Topping the list are, in order, Seidenberg, Sutton, Ballard, Zanon, Pronger, Girardi, Robidas, Volchenkov, Timonen, Gilbert, Clark, Gorges, Schultz.
My point is, you need all types of D: shutdown, stay at home, offensive, pp quarterbacks etc. to have an effective defensive core. All the better when you have multiple players that can fulfill mutliple roles (like Pronger Keith etc.) it's just that in the current NHL, there is more value in a player that also has an offensive upside. |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 14:04:19
|
Ok I haven't read the whole thing because it's way too long. So excuse me if I'm saying something somebody already said.
But people are comparing Hamhuis salary with the top defenseman in the league. If you do that, true he is way overpaid for a 3rd defenseman. But there's many other 3rd or 4th defenseman in the league who are overpaid. So if you compare him to those guys I would take Hamhuis over most of them. Like Komisarek 4.5, Regehr 4.02, Hannan 4.5, Souray 5.4, Hamrlik 5.5, Redden 6.5, Meszaros 4, Michalek 4, Ballard 4.2. So if you compare Hamhuis to this group it seems like a great deal. But the truth is many players are under the average because of many reasons and many players are overpaid because of many reasons. Hamhuis to me is a good value but slightly overpaid but like I mention above there is many other worst contract in the NHL. Even Ballard for an exemple is IMO way more overpaid then Hamhuis. I don't think they will regret the signing of Hamhuis but they will regret getting Ballard.
As for Volchenkov he is more valuable to a team then Hamhuis in my mind because he's one of the best, if not the best at what he does. |
Edited by - Leafs81 on 07/24/2010 14:28:57 |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 15:53:49
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by FLYING -V[/i]
[br]"Of your list, I would take Chara and Pronger in that role, who happen to be elite in that they are very steady defensively but put up big offensive numbers."
Nuxfan, are you implying that niedermayer,keith and lidstrom are not steady defensively?
Because personally i would much rather have one those guys matched up against the other team's top line than Tom Poti or Willie Mitchell.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big!
I will bit at this. Absolutely, I would take a guy like Volchenkov, Poti, or Michalek on the ice against the teams best lines over virtually everyone on your list except for maybe Pronger. They are pure defensive players and better at it than anyone. I am not saying that Lidstrom is a hack or Chara is weak, but they are not as good defensively as other players in the NHL.
Using an offensive comparison, that is like saying in an offensive situation you would put a player like Visnovsky or McCabe over the likes of Mike Green or Duncan Keith. All these players are in the top 20 of defensemen scoring. However, 2 of these are better than the other two. |
|
|
|
Rookie
Top Prospect
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 15:59:36
|
| It would in my opinion depend on what the team needs on its blueline,but as a Canucks fan I will choose Hamhuis(even though we have acquired him) by a slight edge because of his offensive ability although I was quite in a debate with myself if to chose Volchenkov with his defensive abilities as he has led the league in blocked shots since the lockout to be fair. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 12:08:32
|
quote:
Nuxfan, are you implying that niedermayer,keith and lidstrom are not steady defensively?
Because personally i would much rather have one those guys matched up against the other team's top line than Tom Poti or Willie Mitchell.
Sure, they are steady defensively. They just don't stand out defensively. When you've got 1 minute to play and you're nursing a one-goal lead, and there is a defensive zone faceoff...sure you might have Keith on the ice. But you can bet he's paired with Seabrook at that point, and Seabrook is out there because his defensive prowess and ability is better than Keith's.
For other teams, it will depend on who else is on the team. In the case of Niedermayer, he was likely the top defenseman by default, AFAIK ANA didn't really have a "go-to" defensive dman last year. Teams like CHI have both the offensive star and the defensive gem to play together.
After some reflection, I actually would put Lidstrom into the top defensive category, he is a pretty awesome all-around defenseman.
|
|
|
|
Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 12:59:13
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by nuxfan[/i]
After some reflection, I actually would put Lidstrom into the top defensive category, he is a pretty awesome all-around defenseman.
What swung you? Was it the 6 Norris trophies? |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 13:18:52
|
Tiller - you don't win Norris trophies for being the top defensive defenceman.
Maybe Stevens was the exception back in the day.
Alex - fair point, I did put Volchenkov in top ten, top 5 defensively, and that was overstating it, certainly. I'd say top 15, top 20, in between there. It's a good catch, and I'll explain why.
What I was trying to say actually, by my use of the word "defensive", was the category of guys who . . . I don't how to describe it, other than "they hit very hard, and suck to play against, and you gotta keep your head up on a swivel" guys.
He's in the top handful in that category, I'd say. It's a type of defence in that, as I stated earlier, it makes you play differently, and it has an effect on the opposition's offence - they play more carefully, they dish off the puck sooner, they tend to to rush plays more, etc - and this does have a largely unnoticed effect, that tends to engender better defence, in that it lessens the chances against and increases odd man rushes the other way.
I don't know how many times Volchenkov did his work, and it led to an odd man rush with Alfie or Spezza getting a great chance the other way . . . but he did it often.
And that is certainly something that is hard to measure in stats.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 13:51:49
|
What?????????????????????????????
Are you guys kidding me???????????????
Beans????????
Nuxfan???????????
Who won the cup this year in your NHLs????
I'm sorry, but the ludicrousy of your statements just absolutely blew my mind. Nuxfan if you really think brent seabrook is better defensively than duncan keith... I mean come on! And Niedermayer being the top defensive d-man through circumstances? You do know he was the guy shutting down Ovechkin on Canada's olympic team right??? And he was anaheim's go-to shut down guy before they dealt pronger...
And beans, you have just shattered my opinion that you are the all-knowing, omnipotent authority at pickuphockey.com. If you would prefer tom poti on the ice against the other team's top line than keith,niedermayer, lidstrom or chara, than that finally explains your choice of favorite hockey team. I mean, i don't even know how to argue with you... This is insanity!!! Please tell me your joking!!!
Are you???
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 23:58:43
|
quote:
I'm sorry, but the ludicrousy of your statements just absolutely blew my mind. Nuxfan if you really think brent seabrook is better defensively than duncan keith... I mean come on! And Niedermayer being the top defensive d-man through circumstances? You do know he was the guy shutting down Ovechkin on Canada's olympic team right??? And he was anaheim's go-to shut down guy before they dealt pronger...
1. Yes, I do think that Seabrook is the better defensive dman that Keith. Watching him play through the playoffs, he was awesome in that role. Keith is certainly a great all around defenseman, but Seabrook is the better pure defenseman. You obviously don't agree, thats fine.
2. I concede on Niedermayer, you raise good points with the Olympics. You are obviously an ANA fan so you see him play way more than I do, so I can't really argue about him anymore than I have. I was not aware that he was the shut down guy for ANA while Pronger was there, I had always thought it was Pronger...
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 10:45:22
|
Well Flying V, I apologize for shattering your opinion of me, but I am not kidding. My opinion stands.
Of course, we are speaking in hypotheticals and we are assuming that we have every NHL defensemen on our bench in the situation of needed the opposition stopped. In most cases you are refering to(Lidstrom, Chara) they are their teams best defensive player. But that does not make them better than other teams defensive players. Also, I did not say that Seabrook is a better defensive player than Keith. They are very good together and much of their success is based on the skills of the other. Keith is the more offensive focused of the two, but I don't see either of them worse than the other defensively.
Consider this, you are a GM who has been a genius at building a core of 6 defensemen. You have 45 seconds left on the clock and you need to not allow a goal. You are playing against the best offensive group in the NHL today and it's pretty fair to say that you will play most if not all of those 45 seconds in your end. Who do you throw over the boards??
Nick Lidstrom - Zdeno Chara
Duncan Keith - Scott Neidermayer
Anton Volchenckov - Zybnek Michalek
What 2 players are you throwing over the boards???
|
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 12:07:30
|
Good points Beans, but I would go with Lidstrom and Chara, Experience and Size over shot blocking madness.
As for Seabrook and Keith, I don't see them much but is it fair to say that Keith brings the best in Seabrook. If Seabrook leaves Chicago and goes to lets say Buffalo and he's the go to guy over there will he still be considered one of the best??? I dont see them play much because they are out west but a lot of the western fans are posting here so I was asking you. Also Seabrook didn't have much ice time during the Olympics and Keith got plenty and he was very solid the whole way through, offensively and defensively.
I was thinking of that because the same happened with Beauchemin, take him away from Niedermayer or Pronger and you don't have the same player. I think sometimes because some offensive players are so good on the pp and offensively we forget that they are also really good defensively, like Lidstrom and Keith. |
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 20:13:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well Flying V, I apologize for shattering your opinion of me, but I am not kidding. My opinion stands.
Of course, we are speaking in hypotheticals and we are assuming that we have every NHL defensemen on our bench in the situation of needed the opposition stopped. In most cases you are refering to(Lidstrom, Chara) they are their teams best defensive player. But that does not make them better than other teams defensive players. Also, I did not say that Seabrook is a better defensive player than Keith. They are very good together and much of their success is based on the skills of the other. Keith is the more offensive focused of the two, but I don't see either of them worse than the other defensively.
Consider this, you are a GM who has been a genius at building a core of 6 defensemen. You have 45 seconds left on the clock and you need to not allow a goal. You are playing against the best offensive group in the NHL today and it's pretty fair to say that you will play most if not all of those 45 seconds in your end. Who do you throw over the boards??
Nick Lidstrom - Zdeno Chara
Duncan Keith - Scott Neidermayer
Anton Volchenckov - Zybnek Michalek
What 2 players are you throwing over the boards???
Ok beans, if im spending the whole time in my zone i'll probably want volchenkov and chara, but guys like niedermayer,lidstrom and keith wouldn't spend the whole time their zone, they'd probably be able to get the puck out of danger. The ability of a shut down defender to read plays and players is much more important than the ability to hit and block shots. If you can't see that , well, i don't know what else to say.
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
Guest3029
( )
|
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 01:21:36
|
| NHL 10 has volchenkov rated higher so id totally go with him. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 07:37:59
|
Well Flying V, I believe you have realized my point. However, don't assume that I do not see your. I At the end of the day the thread was intended to be Volcheknov vs Hamhuis and through various debates is bent a little. I know that defense is more than blocked shots and hitting. However, both Volchenkov and Michalek receive and deserve their reputation based on far more than blocked shots.
Regardless, I feel I have made my point. I believe that not everyone share the same opinions. However, one opinion is very apparent. That is in must win situations (either defensively or offensive) one of the two players in the battle(Volchenkov or Hamhuis) is discussed as one of the league's best. The other is not.
That was my point all along.
|
|
|
|
FLYING -V
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:46:29
|
Alright beans, i understand. However what i'm saying is that just because volchenkov is better at what he does than hamhuis is, does not make him a more valuable hockey player. I would prefer i player who brings dan hamhuis's skill set to the table over a guy like volchenkov, in the end however, that's just my opinion
Its not worth winning if you cant win big! |
|
|
|
Guest0970
( )
|
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 17:50:02
|
Hamhuis was not signed to be #1. The Nucks don't have a #1. They just have 4 Top 3 Defensemen in Ballard, Hamhuis, Edler, and Ehrhoff. If you would not consider Hamhuis a Top 25 Defenseman, fine with you. The Nucks will be fine. Take into consideration that Ehrhoff was voted 9th in Norris voting.
Oh yeah, and it's EHRHOFF with 2 H's. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 20:24:08
|
Well, if Hamhuis wasn't signed to be a #1, someone should have told Gillis he didn't have to pay him #1 money!!
I am a little confused with the 'Vancouver doesn't have any #1 defensemen, just 4-Top 3 defensemen." Isn't a #1 in the top 3?? So are you saying all those defensemen are all #2 and #3???
Well, that is what I have been saying all along.
Although the insight is appreciated, the question is not if Vancouver will be ok or not, it is would you take Hamhuis or Volchenkov and why????
Can it be assumed from your clear Vancouver bias that you would take Hamhuis?? |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 21:27:07
|
Guest 3029's NHL10 argument is about as good an argument as I have heard....
Truly, neither Volchenkov nor Hamhuis are a #1 DMAN currently, so the one I would take would be the one that would fit with my other D-men.
But, just by stats, and by stats only:
Volchenkov: 64GP 4G 10A +2 38PIM 69Shots 153Hits 172Blockedshots
Hamhuis: 78GP 5G 19A +4 49PIM 115Shots 148HITS 95Blockedshots
Volchenkov leads in hits and blocked shots, although he played 14 less games...
24pts is not a stellar offensive d-man for me, so Hamhuis should be getting paid for his defensive upside, as is Volchenkov..
Yet, if they are similar in skills, I'll take the guy who will be more effective in his role on my team for the dollars I will be paying him. Both players have similar cap hits, and the same length in contracts...
BOTH are signed until 2015-2016, with Volchenkov at 4.25mil, and Hamhuis at 4.5mil contract.
SO, I'll take Hamhuis: a year younger, is less injury prone, scores more points, and has similar defensive numbers, no matter how NHL10 ranks him |
|
|
|
Deaner
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2010 : 18:32:56
|
| went with volchenkov due to the incredible play against the penguins in the playoffs the guy is a tank, took so many shots to the body it kind of made me like him. anybody that can take that many shots just to keep the game going is a real team player, especially the fact that he is russian, you just dont see that often. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2011 : 12:35:20
|
Interesting to look back on these old ones...
So far, Hamhuis is proving to be the better of the two defensemen, at least this year:
Hamhuis: 47 GP, avg 22:50 TOI, 18pts, +21. Currently #2 dman on a strong Canucks lineup, normally paired with Edler, part of first PK unit, part of second PP unit. Has been an integral defensive addition for the Canucks this year
Volchenkov: 39 GP, avg 18:51 TOI, 4pts, +2. I don't know what situations he plays in, I don't follow NJ enough. Assuming PK and even strength. NJ has had a horrible year, so its safe to say he hasn't had much of an impact.
Both are out of the lineup right now (Hamhuis with concussion, Volchenkov with suspension).
I'm very glad with the direction that Vancouver took by going after Hamhuis. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2011 : 05:25:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Interesting to look back on these old ones...
So far, Hamhuis is proving to be the better of the two defensemen, at least this year:
Hamhuis: 47 GP, avg 22:50 TOI, 18pts, +21. Currently #2 dman on a strong Canucks lineup, normally paired with Edler, part of first PK unit, part of second PP unit. Has been an integral defensive addition for the Canucks this year
Volchenkov: 39 GP, avg 18:51 TOI, 4pts, +2. I don't know what situations he plays in, I don't follow NJ enough. Assuming PK and even strength. NJ has had a horrible year, so its safe to say he hasn't had much of an impact.
Both are out of the lineup right now (Hamhuis with concussion, Volchenkov with suspension).
I'm very glad with the direction that Vancouver took by going after Hamhuis.
You mean Volchenkov is a +2 on a New Jersey team that for total goals is -38 (only Ottawa and Edmonton are worse) and that isn't impactful in your opinion?!?
You forgot that Volchenkov has 98 hits, 80 blocked shots . . . middle of the pack numbers for him, but on a bad team, that is amazing, considering.
You also forgot to add that due to key injuries, Hamhuis has been getting top pairing minutes.
It really is tough to put things in perspective when comparing defencemen on teams so far away from each other in the standings . . . that's all I am saying.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2011 : 10:05:29
|
quote:
You mean Volchenkov is a +2 on a New Jersey team that for total goals is -38 (only Ottawa and Edmonton are worse) and that isn't impactful in your opinion?!?
You forgot that Volchenkov has 98 hits, 80 blocked shots . . . middle of the pack numbers for him, but on a bad team, that is amazing, considering.
You also forgot to add that due to key injuries, Hamhuis has been getting top pairing minutes.
It really is tough to put things in perspective when comparing defencemen on teams so far away from each other in the standings . . . that's all I am saying.
Your +/- argument is fair - +2 on that team is pretty good. I don't know what situations he plays in, but judging from his minutes I'm guessing he does not always play against the opposing team's top players? That might help his +/- ranking a bit.
Why would stats for hits and blocked shots be impacted by being on a bad team? You can hit players and block shots when your team is not doing well. Hamhuis has 62 blocked shots this year to Volchenkov's 80. As for hits, I don't really know how what that stat tells you about the skill of a defenseman - it just tells you how punishing they are. Brooks Orpik regularly leads the NHL in the hits by defenseman department.
Hamhuis has been paired with Edler as the top group all year long - it has nothing to do with injuries. A healthy Salo would not have changed that
You're right - it is tough to compare the two given the team's relative fortunes. However, I'm still quite happy with the choice that VAN took with Hamhuis, he has proven to be a great fit, and has proven to be better defensively than I expected him to be. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Hamhuis vs. Volchenkov 
