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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2010 : 08:10:45
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Poll Question:
Who will be the most improved team 2010-11 season & Why?
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 08:19:08
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So far this season, if you don't say Toronto, you've been hiding under a rock for the last month.
From 2nd last in the league to appearing to be fighting and succeeding to qualify for the playoffs must be most improved. |
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 08:28:29
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| would say the Oilers they have no where to go but up and have made some good moves recently..... I also like their D Whitney has been a great addition. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 08:37:56
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| I was talking about the whole season, but out of the gate, no question it's Toronto. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 09:04:57
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| Very tough now that TO's off to such a good start. In all honesty, i'd have said Edmonton if this poll were presented a couple weeks ago. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 09:43:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Very tough now that TO's off to such a good start. In all honesty, i'd have said Edmonton if this poll were presented a couple weeks ago.
BINGO!! This poll is so phenominally premature it's not even funny! Most teams are only 5 games into an 82 game season!! Geez, maybe take a look at this at Christmas, or the All Star Break??
But if I am going to play along, where are the Stars on the list? Not only have they been horrible for ever but most prognosticators has the Dallas near the bottom or dead last in the league. They are SICK offensively and their goaltending has been awesome. In many ways, better than the Leafs. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/22/2010 09:43:34 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 09:56:14
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Missing teams: Dallas, Tampa Bay, Columbus, Anaheim
Most improved can mean any number of things, but I will go by what I think you mean . . . at the end of the year, which team will have made the biggest jump in points.
Really tough to say, because I think it might be a very close race between Tampa Bay, the Leafs, and Dallas. They could all do substantially better than last year.
But based purely on points, the Leafs have such a big advantage, so I have to go with them - after all, when you finish with 74 points these days, you have a much much bigger chance for improvement!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:09:08
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Well than wouldn't Edmonton have the biggest chance?? They finished with with just 62 points.
The Leafs could have a 12-14 point increase over last year and make the playoffs and the Oilers could have a 25 point increase over last year and miss the playoffs. Who would have been more improved at that point??
On a side note, anyone who watched the Leaf game last night would have watched more of what I expect from the Leafs this season. No secondary scoring at all. Defense struggles moving the puck out their own end. Goaltending was ok, but if Giguere or Gustovsson are not at the very top of their game the Leafs lose.
1 goal in 2 games and more than 120 minutes between even strength goals?? That needs to get fixed quick or that 4 game winning streak to start the season will be erased by this time next week. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:24:15
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Wow....................
Tough crowd. Does everything have to be so scientific, proven by results, mathematically correct for you all? What's wrong with having a little fun and playing around? Is this the round table on the Fan? There really is no need to jump down everyone's throat on every post. It's a stupid little poll, not Angus Reid, just a little stupid, let's have fun and see who called what by accident or by knowing something.
Wow.............. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:27:14
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No Beans, Edmonton would certainly not have the best chance, in my mind. You see, they still suck. 
Hall is sucking to begin the season, and Paajarvi looks lost at times. To have any chance at making a big jump in the standings (and in points), you'd need those guys playing like decent second line NHLers to compete. And they aren't.
I'd worry about the Oilers not finishing dead last in the league, not whether they have a chance at even a 15 point improvement.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Wow....................
Tough crowd. Does everything have to be so scientific, proven by results, mathematically correct for you all? What's wrong with having a little fun and playing around? Is this the round table on the Fan? There really is no need to jump down everyone's throat on every post. It's a stupid little poll, not Angus Reid, just a little stupid, let's have fun and see who called what by accident or by knowing something.
Wow..............
Hey, it is a website where people debate. If you can't take someone questioning your posts, then I suggest you are in the wrong place. It's just part of the game.
And Slozo, I would not complain at all in the Oilers finish dead last again. Reason being is that I have zero expectation on a team starting 3 rookies in their top 12 forwards as well as another year's 1st overall pick will put the Oilers on the freight train to domination similar to Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, or LA.
I would be more concerned with watching the Leafs barely sneak into the playoffs, get bounce the first round, and realize that this is as good as that team will be for a long time. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Missing teams: Dallas, Tampa Bay, Columbus, Anaheim
Most improved can mean any number of things, but I will go by what I think you mean . . . at the end of the year, which team will have made the biggest jump in points.
Really tough to say, because I think it might be a very close race between Tampa Bay, the Leafs, and Dallas. They could all do substantially better than last year.
But based purely on points, the Leafs have such a big advantage, so I have to go with them - after all, when you finish with 74 points these days, you have a much much bigger chance for improvement!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
It's a simple poll of the 4 worst teams from last year...... I could have included the bottom 16 teams as well, but, it is what it is. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:55:42
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@toxxik
We are NOT mathematical at all!
IF we were oh so scientific, and mathematical, we would have asked you first to prove your existence, prove your proof by mathematical induction, then every post from then on would have to be proved by induction that it is indeed a valid thread topic. 
In all seriousness, toxxik, I thought the reason you posted the thread was for to create a forum for discussion about the most improved team.
Discussing the timing of the posting is very much related to the subject, as you asked most improved team for 10/11 season.
BACK TO TOPIC: of the 4 teams, I don't think that simply a measure of how many more points they are getting than last season is an accurate descriptor of improvement.
Even if EDM would improve by 25pts, and the leafs would improve say 10-15pts, I would still say the Leafs were more improved, since EDM was decimated by injuries to key players at almost all times last season. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 11:05:26
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Prove my existance? That would be a tough one. Would a note pinned to my shirt from my mom count? LOL
Oh, and it says who do you think WILL be, not who is. So it's a guessing game question based purely on thoughts, not facts.
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Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 10/22/2010 11:07:20 |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 12:18:44
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Little early to tell !!
But i am LOVING what I am seeing from Dallas so far 
I am feelin a great year coming from my stars this year :)
from that list though, the leafs are certainly looking to prove themselves this year and they are living up to their expectations so far.
It'll be interesting to see when they play some of the better teams however.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 13:11:07
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| semin, I gotta agree with you, Dallas has been a huge surprise in the west this year. I figured the would win some games, but not in the fashion that they are. I managed to get Lehtonen in 2 of my pools this year, happy! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 16:12:03
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| Dallas better start sucking soon! I don't want them to interfere with St Louis making the playoffs! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2010 : 21:57:57
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| Regardless of how DAL does, I still thing STL is going to get there. They look pretty good so far this year, 4-1-2 already. |
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2010 : 00:02:52
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| I agree Toronto looks to be the most improved according to the start, however Oilers are rebuilding the fact their young players are adapting so well early is a major positive. The goal is to be contending for the cup again by 2012.... Patience and game experience are the agenda now. The fact they are fun to watch again is great. |
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Guest0070
( )
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Posted - 10/23/2010 : 06:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Prove my existance? That would be a tough one. Would a note pinned to my shirt from my mom count? LOL
Oh, and it says who do you think WILL be, not who is. So it's a guessing game question based purely on thoughts, not facts.
HA !!!!!!!!
You are so right!!!!
This is a Leaf-Fest, not an open forum.
Anyway - Islanders for me
PS - stay in this forum, it needs more like you to drive these leaf fans crazy!
You'll note that they will soon not respond to you, however don't stop because they still read your posts. Once they can't take it anymore, they'll blow up ! |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2010 : 11:34:12
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Before the season started I thought Dallas would be the most improve team in the league, according to their strong debute I will stick with them.
But in the list I will say the Islanders. I don't know it seems like everybody is contributing and they are doing really well even though they have many injuries to key players.
My heart says Toronto but I don't know they don't have enough depth, if a key player or two goes down (like the Islanders) I don't think they'll keep the pace. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2010 : 13:46:04
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Beans why would you say this is as good as the Leafs wiil be for a long time ?? Seems like you just simply hate the leafs. Toronto right now are over 4 million below the cap, after next season with Giguere / Kaberle maybe moving the leafs will be around 15 million below the cap. With any tinkering at all they can be 17 - 18 million below the cap,
Thats a lot of damn money, the leafs can pick up 3 bonafied 6 million dollar forwards next season through free agency if they just simply don`t do anything at all.
With the leafs finally looking to have a good nucleus of young players, the monster looking for real, and all this $$$ to be availible if they so choose, the leafs can be a very, very strong team by as early as next season. 15 - 17 million in free cap space can buy you a lot of talent.
Brian Burke is doing a great job with the leafs in my opinion and will have them turned around by next season. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2010 : 19:11:06
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I think Beans has a little bit of hate for everything not Edmonton
Duke:
1. If they let Giguere and Kaberle go, they'll have to use some of that 18M to get another quality dman (Phaneuf alone is not enough) and another goalie. I don't know if they'll need a starting goalie or a backup goalie yet. So, lets say the Leafs have 14M to play with.
2. The crop of UFA's for next summer looks pretty sparse. After Brad Richards, who is there to pickup?
- Semin - but I don't think he fits Burke's mold, and I can't see WAS letting him get away
- Gagne - he hasn't exactly been increasing his worth so far
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and it gets pretty sparse after that.
I think the Leafs have a great nucleus of 3rd line players right now, and Kessel. 2 or 3 top-3 forwards might go some distance to solving that problem, but they'll need to do more than that. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2010 : 23:47:37
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Leafs survive off Giguere. He has been an Angels blessing for them.
Edmonton shows promise with a huge line of rookies and young players. Removing Souray from the line up though will keep the team out of playoffs.
Islanders did not get any big aquiremnts so even though they may do well this year the team won't improve a lot.
Florida sucks not much more to say.
None of this teams appear to be playoff material but if i had to choose one to make it closest to the cup it would be New York Islanders, Due to players already showing promise and the aquisition of Graber.
The most Improved Edmonton with the most Aquirements.
The Monkey is me |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 09:33:37
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I do hate Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary. I have said that various times in the past. Nuxfan, for you to say that I hate everything not Edmonton is dead on right. I am a fan of Edmonton and therefore every other team is bunk. Thanks for seeing what I am trying to show!!
As far as Free Agency goes, can you please tell me a single team that has built a team and kept them strong through free agency. I bet you will have a hard time. Most if not all of the powerhouse teams are built through the draft, to which Toronto will not be able to start doing until at least next draft(2012).
I could care less how much money the Leafs have, look at St. Louis, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Colorado, Edmonton, NYI, and Nashville. All those teams have $10+ million in cap space and they are not good or bad based on their free agents, it's based on their draft.
Brian Burke is a GM who is known to be very reasonable with his free agent signings. I don't recall a single player than he overpaid for on the free agent market. Some could say Komisarek but at the time it was a value contract.
Finally, you want an example of how building a team through free agency doesn't work, look at NYR. Sather has been trying for 15+ years to get back to the glory of the Cup and simply can't do it because he goes through free agency.
Free agency is used to supliment a team that is already built with one or two pieces that are missing, not completely re-build a team. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 09:55:43
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nuxfan you are right, i now TO ain`t gonna get 3 superstars from free-gency but maybe 2 good ....1st - 2nd forwards wouldn`t be out of the question.
Beans as for bringing up Glen Sather...come on...he is a very extreme case. Look at some of the bull he has pulled, no other GM in hockey has did this nonsense...isolated example.
Didn`t he give Bobby Holik something like 9 million per year...lmao
Scott Gomez around 7-8 million or something ?
Wade Redden a big-time million dollar contract...just a few i can think of....man is a complete moron.
You can bring in good players now through free agency and may i add, YOUNG free agents, as young as 26 - 27 years old. Unlike years ago when a free agent was 32 years old and 3 years later he was going down hill......you can buy a player now through free-agency and get value from him for 8 - 10 years. |
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 12:05:50
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Beans I agree I am an Oiler fan only. I don't have a second team to cheer for if they are not winning. The fact that they show up play hard and leave it all on the ice is good enough for me. The last few years have been challenging because I felt they did not have the work ethic and effort, This year I see that spirit back and look forward to this young group becoming a top contender.  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 13:12:58
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Like I said Duke, tell me a team that has had success after using Free Agency and not the Draft to develop their team.
Let's take a look at the last 10 Stanley Cup Champions
2010 - Chicago
2009 - Pittsburgh
2008 - Detroit
2007 - Anaheim
2006 - Carolina
2005 - No Cup
2004 - Tampa Bay
2003 - New Jersey
2002 - Detroit
2001 - Colorado
2002 - New Jersey
I think it would be nearly impossible to say that any of those teams were built through free agency. They all used free agency to pick up a missing piece or two but they all had their own draft picks develop through their system.
As Nuxfan mentioned early, there are very few free agents that would fill in a roster next year. Great role players and secondary players, but very few show stoppers.
The Leafs need superstars, not role players. As much as I think Kessel is a blue-chip player, he is not enough to win a Cup. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 13:43:07
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quote:
As far as Free Agency goes, can you please tell me a single team that has built a team and kept them strong through free agency. I bet you will have a hard time. Most if not all of the powerhouse teams are built through the draft, to which Toronto will not be able to start doing until at least next draft(2012).
I could care less how much money the Leafs have, look at St. Louis, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Colorado, Edmonton, NYI, and Nashville. All those teams have $10+ million in cap space and they are not good or bad based on their free agents, it's based on their draft.
This is a very good point, and oft overlooked for teams that suck. It is virtually impossible to build a winner in a cap system without having some sort of value that you could not get anywhere else - ie, young players on EL deals or (in rarer cases), players that are willing to take hometown discounts. The teams that have won in the years since the cap was introduced took advantage of one or both of those situations - last year's CHI being a very extreme example.
Without good draft pick supply, today's teams will not do as well. Which is why the Leafs are not going to be serious contender material for a while.
However, the list of cash-rich teams that Beans has supplied is somewhat misleading. With the exception of EDM (at least I think - Beans might correct me), all of those teams have spent up to or near their own "internal" cap - there are only a few teams in the NHL that can afford to spend up to the cap each and every year and stay afloat. TOR having 18M in cap space is a lot more significant than someone like NSH having 18M in cap space, because you know TOR will use it all up next year. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 14:30:18
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Lots of those teams listed as cup winners - most, in fact - did so with a combination of draft AND free agency. Pittsburgh is the lone axample of a team built almost entirely through the draft when talking about their core . . . but for their cup win, does no one remember Gonchar? Guerin? Fedetenko? even Kunitz?
I would argue that all successful teams are built on a combination of both.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 14:31:37
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Good point Nuxfan, there are definitely teams like Nashville and Atlanta who have set and internal cap based on their owner. However, Nashville is also an excellent example of a team that drafts very well considering they have only had 1 pick in the top 5 since 1998 and have had only 6 draft picks earlier than 10 in that same time period. They have also made the playoffs in 5 of the last 6 seasons meaning they don't often get a sniff of early draft picks. They also don't chase free agents.
However, there are other teams like LA who want to spend the money but won't spend it on players that would be overpaid or would not help the team.
Then there are groups like Edmonton, Colorado, and NYI that are smart enough to know that one or two free agents will not send them to a Cup, so they will not waste their money and will allow their young talent to complete.
TO is not in any one of those groups. They are in a group of teams that have spent near the cap for the past few years, have very little talent in the system, and have very limited draft picks. In fact, I can't think of another team in TO's position. Vancouver is another team that has spent to the cap and has little in the system but they have a heck of a team on the ice. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 18:03:14
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quote:
Lots of those teams listed as cup winners - most, in fact - did so with a combination of draft AND free agency. Pittsburgh is the lone axample of a team built almost entirely through the draft when talking about their core . . . but for their cup win, does no one remember Gonchar? Guerin? Fedetenko? even Kunitz?
Its hard to get all the free agents without having the draft picks - having one leads to having the other. We all remember Gonchar/Guerin/Fedetenko/Kunitz. All those signing were made possible by Crosby, Staal, and Malkin @ 850K each. Now that they eat 23M in cap space, PIT is forced to surround them with Tangradi/Rupp/Kennedy/Comrie, and Martin on defense. Quite a difference.
Having a bunch of cheap standout EL deals allows you to fill spaces with players that you otherwise would not be able to afford on short-term deals. IMO its critical to be able to do this to have success today.
VAN has very little in the pantry for sure - Hodgson, and then a whole lot of promise without results yet. However, VAN is a great example of a successful team that has been built largely from the inside using good draft picks from the last decade - a significant part of the offensive core (Sedins, Kesler, Raymond, Burrows, and much of the 3rd and 4th lines), Edler and Bieksa on defense, and Schneider in goal are all original Canuck draft picks. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2010 : 19:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Lots of those teams listed as cup winners - most, in fact - did so with a combination of draft AND free agency. Pittsburgh is the lone axample of a team built almost entirely through the draft when talking about their core . . . but for their cup win, does no one remember Gonchar? Guerin? Fedetenko? even Kunitz?
I would argue that all successful teams are built on a combination of both.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Hey, I agree 100%, for a team to be great, they need both a strong draft and smart use of free agency. As I said orginally, free agency has been used successfully to add a few missing pieces not to rebuild a team.
It's really hard to argue that although the Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the NHL, the draft cupboard is pretty bare outside of the hype of Kadri. That is how my comment regarding the Leafs being as good as they can been for a while came from. The cupboard is pretty bare and Burke gave his food stamps to Boston for one more season.
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andarchy
Top Prospect
19 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2010 : 16:35:23
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| I would put my money on the Islanders from the teams on this list. They are better than people think. A good bunch of first rounders and a handfull of young guys with potential. |
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Guest5398
( )
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Posted - 10/26/2010 : 06:18:08
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| EASY CHOICE HERE, ISLANDERS BECAUSE JOHN TAVARES WILL HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH CAMPAIGN. |
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 15:10:58
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I agree, the Hawks built last year's team soley on drafting and free agency.
Ex:Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Versteeg, Byfuglien, Hossa, and Campbell among others.
So the guy walks into the bar with a dog and starts to watch the oilers game. They score and the dog does a flip in the air. The bartender says "That was cool, what does he do when they win?" to which the guy replies "I don't know, I've only had him for 15 years." |
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Topic |
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2010 - 11 Most Improved 
