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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2010 : 19:55:23
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quote:
I do not know all the details of why he was booed, but as long as he plays hard, shoots the puck, and nails people, I think he's doing his job.
While that is true for most defensemen getting paid 2 or 3 million a year, it is not true for Phaneuf. When you carry a 6.5M contract, you are expected to do all that, and put up quite a few points quarterbacking your powerplay.
If you just want those 3 things, get Shane O'Brien instead and save a few bucks. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2010 : 21:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
I do not know all the details of why he was booed, but as long as he plays hard, shoots the puck, and nails people, I think he's doing his job.
While that is true for most defensemen getting paid 2 or 3 million a year, it is not true for Phaneuf. When you carry a 6.5M contract, you are expected to do all that, and put up quite a few points quarterbacking your powerplay.
If you just want those 3 things, get Shane O'Brien instead and save a few bucks.
Lol....this site might have to change it's name to shaneobrienhockey.com?
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 20:29:41
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no one should boo this guy.
>I think< Phaneuf is playing well in an unknown way, sort of like Hamhuis, Jeff Shultz, and Sopel. They do not do anything spectacularly obvious but behind the play they just stopped a break-away oppertunity. The problem with Phaneuf is that he is supposed to be a Slap-Shot while instead he is playing more on the defensive side.
The Monkey is me |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 22:20:20
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Phaneuf is supposed to be EVERYTHING a modern defenseman can be - when a team signs a defenseman to that sort of money they expect that they will be:
- exceptional defensively
- playing PP, PK, even strength, 22-27+ minutes a game, more if neccessary
- big and mobile
- the guy that is out there with the game on the line
- putting up 40-60+ points a year.
There are only a handful of dmen that are making north of 6M:
- Bowemeester, 6.6M
- Dan Boyle, 6.7M
- Brian Campbell, 7.1M
- Zdeno Chara, 7.5M
- Ed Jovanoski, 6M
- Duncan Keith, 8M (5M cap hit)
- Nik Lidstrom, 6.2M
- Chris Pronger, 7.6M (4.5M cap hit)
- Brian Rafalski, 6M
- Kimmo Timonen, 7M
- Luby Visnovsky, 6M
Phaneuf is good, but I would take nearly all of these dmen over Phaneuf - Bouwemeester is looking to be a bust, and Jovo and Rafalski are past their prime.
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Edited by - nuxfan on 11/09/2010 22:20:54 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 22:27:27
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I gotta say, from that list there are few players I put Phaneuf ahead of.
Timonen I think is over rated, Boyle (as much as I like him) is very one-dimensional, Jovanovksi is on the down swing as is Rafalski.
Other than that, every player on that list is ahead of Phaneuf.
That being said, the argument is not who gets paid what. Good quote I heard today as people were talking about Ryan Getzlaf is that a players talent does not have any relationship to salary. Meaning, if a player gets paid $10 million a season or gets league minumum, it's still the same players.
Would Phaneuf magically become a better player if he was paid $3 million rather than $6 million?? Nope. The expectation changes but the player's skill level doesn't change. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 23:05:32
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I did qualify Jovo and Rafalski as being near the end of their careers. Timonen is overrated @ 7M per year, but he'd be worth 5.5-6 - 40-55 pts per year, 22 min avg TOI over his entire career, quarterbacks PP, kills penalties. You didn't mention Bouwemeester, would you take him over Phaneuf? Tough one, neither is complete.
I don't understand that quote - of course a player's talent has a relationship to salary. The better you are at the time you sign that contract, the more you can command. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 11/09/2010 23:06:55 |
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Guest3024
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Posted - 11/10/2010 : 00:41:54
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Yes, the more a player is paid, the more you can demand, but just because you demand more from a player does not mean hes going to deliver more. They are going to deliver exactly what they are capable of. They should be paid by how good they play, not play on how high as they are paid. Am I making sense? Probably not.
"Here's a fat contract, and the captaincy. Play better now. Better than you ever have."
It doesn't really work that way. It's sort of like giving Shane Obrien a pay cut, and telling him to play worse. He won't play any worse, because he is NOT capable of it. He can only play to his best (which is really f***ing good). |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 08:42:44
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you do make sense - they should be paid by how well they play. But they didn't get to that pay scale without playing well, which is my point. Which comes first, the paycheque or the skill?
I say the skill - very few players command a big contract unless they have shown they deserve it (based on past performance, which is really all you can base it on). However, in some cases, things go bad - such as they have for Phaneuf.
When he signed his contract for 6.5M, his stats for the previous 3 years indicated that he warranted that salary - 49 to 50 to 60 points, around 20 goals a year, hard physical defender. A dman getting those stats should command 6M in today's NHL, based on other 6M defenders.
Whether or not he is worth that contract now is debatable, but he definitely did something to get it in the first place - not the other way around. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 10:09:36
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Personally, I do take Bouwmeester over Phaneuf. I think he brings significantly more to the table defensively and has the ability to contribute offensively. Not nearly to the same offensive contribution as Phaneuf however he has put up seasons of 15goals and 40+ points. It's not 60, but he brings more to the table defensively which is the kicker for me.
Furthermore, the guy has not missed an NHL game since, well ever. He has played 7 NHL seasons, played in 82 games in 6 of those seasons, and has not missed a game since the 03/04 season. Chewing up 25ish minutes a game every night.
Ya, even with the weak season last year I take Bouwmeester of Phaneuf pretty easily. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 11:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest3024
Yes, the more a player is paid, the more you can demand, but just because you demand more from a player does not mean hes going to deliver more. They are going to deliver exactly what they are capable of. They should be paid by how good they play, not play on how high as they are paid. Am I making sense? Probably not.
"Here's a fat contract, and the captaincy. Play better now. Better than you ever have."
It doesn't really work that way. It's sort of like giving Shane Obrien a pay cut, and telling him to play worse. He won't play any worse, because he is NOT capable of it. He can only play to his best (which is really f***ing good).
If i'm reading this correctly, you feel they should be paid like players are in golf? Win / perform well, you get more money? I'd love to see that, however, with different styles of players bringing different qualities to the table for their teams, it'd be tough to set a pay scale i bet??? Be great though if they could! "What have you done for me lately" could be the new name of the pay scale!  |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 12:09:05
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I believe they call that "no guaranteed contracts" in the NFL.
Big coin, don't produce & yer a memory. |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 11/10/2010 12:09:40 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 12:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
I believe they call that "no guaranteed contracts" in the NFL.
Big coin, don't produce & yer a memory.
Ding Ding, we have a winner!!
Part of the reason the NFL is so profitable (outside of their huge, billion dollar TV deal) is that an owner is not ever on the hook for a contract. Just like Toxxik stated, no performance and you are released. Some players get smart and ensure some amount of 'guaranteed money' but it's never the entire contract.
It's a huge challenge for a GM to find ways to make mistakes go away and no GM is perfect. A deal like Horcoff for example, or Phaneuf to some degrees, Kovalchuk's deal. Etc. However, no guaranteed contract also reduced some of the ability of the salary cap. There could no longer be any contracts with varying payouts. They would have to be an even spilt across the deal.
I would love to see the same contract structure in the NHL as in the NFL. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 01:56:18
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Speaking of Kovi, did you see the 100 million dollar man in his shootout performance last night?
Someone replaced the puck with a mexican jumping bean.... |
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Guest0387
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Posted - 05/30/2011 : 17:54:36
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come on, this is the guy who made the top three alongside crosby and ovechkin for the calder. note that ovechkin won (just to make you
happy troll) |
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Booing Phaneuf 
