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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2010 : 17:05:31
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This has to be something that the NHL considers seriously.
In my opinion it's long overdue.
And I think this should apply not only to goal related situations.
For example cogliango got high sticked(no call) the oilers then took a penalty CAR scored then 2 more soon after. That penalty call ruined the game, and I'm just f***ing sick of this.
The arguement against it is it takes up too much time, but without countless games are ruined due to stupid refs
Go OILERS Go!!!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 18:10:26
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| the NHL apparently did consider it, and nixed it. Not going to happen. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 18:19:02
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Frankly, there are good calls and bad calls all the time. Through the season every team gets their share of both. It's all a perception thing. If Cogliano high sticks Pitkanen rather than the other way around, no Oiler fan is complaining. It's not like an Oiler fan would ever say they didn't deserve a win if it happened through a blown or missed call.
The appeal to hockey is the pace of the game. Comparatively to the other major North American sports it has the best and most consistant flow. It also has the most momentum changes. Anything to negatively impact that is a negative to the game, IMO.
Now, I don't completely disagree with coach's challenge, however I would say limit it to only one per game. Limit it to situations on goals only, losing a challenge will be an automatic double minor penalty, and no coach's challenge in the final 2 minutes of the game.
Most every questionable goal is reviewed anyway so the situations where a coach's challenge would happen would be insignificant.
As far as missed penalties. Suck it up. Every teams gets their share both ways. Some time it impacts the outcome of the game. That's why the season is 82 games, not 10 or 20.
It works out in the wash. |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 18:51:50
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So we're leaving it up to chance instead of allowing teams to get what is deserved. There is no way in hell that it will balance out in the end. Flip 1000 coins, there not going to be 500 heads and 500 tails.
And beans; why would you restrict this rule so much?
the second CAR goal ruined the game for me, because in my mind the game became iligitamate due to the missed call.
I don't see how a 1-2 minute review would stop the flow of the game. maybe they should take away timeouts. Thats exactly what they do, stop the flow.
And if they didn't have challenges in the last 2 minutes, things like macgouh(or whatever the F*** his name is) call on horcoff could go unchallenged.
Frankly the referee system isn't working it has to be changed, this seems like a way to do so.
Thinking that it will even out is completely unrealistic
Go OILERS Go!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 20:44:51
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Sahis, refereeing a game is not "flipping a coin", these guys are professionals and do a very good job in a difficult environment. For every blown call there are a hundred or more that they get right. Thats a pretty good record IMO.
I agree with Beans (its happening a lot lately, must be something going around...) - the flow of the game is important, too many stops and you get a very disjointed game. Fans would hate it - I already hate the TV timeouts for this reason, and have started getting annoyed with any video review that takes longer than a couple of minutes.
I also agree with the limits, if this were to actually come into being. Keep it to goal plays only, and one per game. If you loosen it beyond that, you'll have coaches challenging every penalty non-call, goal, whatever. You'll have them challenging icing just so they get a break for the guys that have to stay on the ice. It would be ridiculous. 3 periods of hockey would take 6 hours to play.
quote:
For example cogliango got high sticked(no call) the oilers then took a penalty CAR scored then 2 more soon after. That penalty call ruined the game, and I'm just f***ing sick of this.
When your team loses 7-1, its probably not a blown penalty that was the game changer...
In tonights VAN-MTL game, I saw maybe 5 things that could have been called that were not - some in favour of MTL, some in favour of VAN. It happens in a sport that is played at a very high speed with a lot of contact happening all the time. Live with it. |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 21:15:53
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[/quote]
When your team loses 7-1, its probably not a blown penalty that was the game changer...
[/quote]
It was, we gave up after that. And it was a direct factor on the game.
. If you have one challenge per game the problem of a disjointed game,each game would be 1-2 minutes longer.
I think the problem of the extreme sub parity of the refs is a bigger issue than a game that would be a couple minutes longer.
and btw, you can't challenge icing it's a jugdement calll and you would have to take a timeout anyway
[/quote]
For every blown call there are a hundred or more that they get right.
[/quote]
You think they actually get that many right? I'd say they get 3/4 right, at leat on penalites.
Go OILERS Go!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 21:23:51
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Part of the beauty of sport is the dirtiness of it. The fact that it's not perfect makes it perfect. The players are not perfect, the coaches are not perfect, why do we expect the refs to be perfect.
The Oilers, like every other NHL team, play 82 games a year. The situations you are quoting, which I count 2, have happened over the past 3 season. So, if the refs impact 2 out of 246 games, why change the rule???
As Alex said, for every call that is blown or missed by a ref they get 10 others correct. Furthermore, I would suggest that less than 1 out of 20 'blown calls' actually have an impact on the overall outcome of the game. It's completely insignificant and not worthy of changing a system that has worked for decades.
The system is not working??? Really. Every call the refs make is horrible and the entire system needs to be overhauled.
Remember that the next time the Oilers get a PP, because if they entire system is broken those are bad calls as well. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 11/09/2010 21:25:08 |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 22:19:34
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And, Sahis, don't use math examples that don't make sense.
Yes, you have a 50% chance of getting a heads or tails on a coin flip, but this has nothing to do with the chances of getting 500 heads in 1000 coin tosses.
Of course there would be no balancing, because the chances of getting 500 tails and 500 heads exactly, in 1000 tosses (if I remember my math correctly) would be (1/2)^1000, or a number so small, a scientific calculator can't handle that many decimals.
Besides, every loss the Oilers take this year brings us closer to another good pick. I want a real rebuild, not a magic revival like Burke promised the Leafs. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 22:34:17
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Sahis, if your Oilers quit after getting down 2 goals, enjoy your number one pick next year cuz this year's gonna be a long one!
How would you expect them to review penalty calls or non calls? Are you talking high sticking calls only? I mean, i know there are missed calls where a guy is bleeding all over the place and we see the replay and wonder how two refs both missed it, but c'mon, are we gonna let a coach challenge for a missed hooking call too? Sorry, but i'm ok with things the way they are. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 22:55:40
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quote:
Of course there would be no balancing, because the chances of getting 500 tails and 500 heads exactly, in 1000 tosses (if I remember my math correctly) would be (1/2)^1000, or a number so small, a scientific calculator can't handle that many decimals.
For 1000 tosses, the odds of getting 500 heads and 500 tails is approximately 2.5%. Don't ask why 
The odds of flipping a particular value each toss would be 1 in 2^1000, which is a huge huge number.
quote:
It was, we gave up after that.
If your team gives up hope after one bad call against them, then they deserve to lose 7-1. Because bad calls happen and cheap shots get missed and divers get rewarded - and good teams take it in stride, move on, and play the game. Like beans says, its all part of hockey, and its part of what makes it a fun sport to watch. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 02:35:08
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The answer to this problem is pretty simple:
There are 4 officials on the ice, but, on non calls or wrong calls for that matter, have you ever seen all 4 huddle and see what each guy saw? Why is there 4 when only one can make such calls? If the refs would be able to confer with each other, i'd say a majority of these problems would go away. Allowing for a challenge not only undermines the refs, but adds a 5th one to the process? Doesn't make sense. |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 04:47:11
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According to Brian Murray one of the main reasons it didn't get passed is because not all of the arenas have an equal number of cameras
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 05:01:33
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I am one of those that thinks the system is not working very wel, and I place most of the blame on the reffing.
Toxxik brings up a good point, and I don't know if he was listening to am640's Bob McCowan talk about it with other hockey experts the other day . . . the refs need to talk! In other sports, if there is a contentious/disputed call, the refs and linesmen TALK to each other to make sure they get it right, and the lone sport that almost never does this is hockey.
What was the point of getting that second ref on the ice if not to get the right call made more often?!? There needs to be a mandate from the head of officiating that the referees consult with each other more, especially on goals and penalties that are hotly disputed. Have a huddle away from the players, talk over what each of you saw and how sure you were, and get it RIGHT.
We don't need to be tripping over thrown flags on the ice (has anyone mentioned the potential hazard this presents to the players?). We need the refs ALREADY THERE to DO THEIR JOBS PROPERLY.
IMHO, the NHL referees are the least accountable of any sport, and make more wrong calls than any other sport. And it flows from the top down.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 07:12:49
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Slozo,
Nope, didn't catch the show, but, for years i've always wondered why ALL the refs on the ice can't make a call or discuss with other refs what they saw. Very perplexing to have that many on the ice, only to call offsides and icings.......... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 08:33:44
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thats not a bad idea. As it stands now, only the refs can discuss penalties - linesmen can only get involved in the case of a major penalty (I believe, something to that effect). However, if you allowed them all to get involved and make calls, that might help the effort.
I honestly don't see there being much wrong with the refs - there are very few blown calls IMO, and even less that have an actual real effect on the outcome of a game. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 09:30:49
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@nuxfan:
Can you remind me why it is 2.5% for 500 tails, 500heads in 1000 tosses? I stink at math with permutations and combinatorials. I thought it would be 1/2^1000 because that is one result in 1000 tosses, each with a specific result required?
Back to Thread:
I would like to see an off-ice official added that would be like the 4th official in soccer games, and he would do the "challenges" or notify the head official of everything. This off-ice official could be in continual conference with the NHL during a game, and be checking questionable calls as they happen. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 10:03:33
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NHL refs make more bad calls than any other?? Ever watch baseball?? Each ump has a different definition of a strike zone and plays at any plate change depending on the ump. How about basketball and the perception of how many steps a player can make before travelling is called. Think of the NFL and how often a call is overturned. Do you honestly believe that a challenge play in the NHL would result in nearly 40% of the calls being overturned?? I think not.
Overall, I think the NHL refs do a fine job. I don't think anyone realizes how fast the game actually is ice level. Honestly, until last season when I had the opportunity to siteat ice level, I had zero appreciation for how fast the game actual is.
Furthermore, TV angles give nearly a 360 degree view of the action. The camera position is not what the refs see. Let's not forget the benefit of the jumbton and instant replay that the fans get. There are 10 skaters, 3 other officials, 2 goalies all moving at the same time (very,very quickly) in a reasonably confined space. Throw in a couple of nets that might get in the way every now and then as well.
Frankly, refs do not get the credit they deserve as most will never walk in their shoes.I am reminded of a highly respected person in the hockey world in Ron MacLean who spent years criticizing the refs until they brought him out to ref an exhibition game. He changed his tune awfully quickly.
However, I do agree that the refs should have the ability to huddle and have a discussion regarding a play. It would definitely help on some of the blown calls. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 11:11:26
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Slozo, i too like the idea of the ref's conferring with one another. It certainly can't hurt? As for "flags" being thrown onto the ice, i was thinking about this last night and came to the conclussion that surely the NHL would have a better way to signal an appeal, such as a light at the bench that the coach would turn on or something to that affect?
Beans, i too agree that hockey refs are more consistent than most other sports. Basketball i have to say, might just be the toughest to ref!!! We complain about a missed hooking or high sticking call, imagine calling a touch foul on a game winning shot? Imagine how difficult it must be to call a foul in bastketball? Wow!
As to your point about the speed of the game, i've been in that situation before. Sitting at ice level in rows 1, 2 or 3 gives you a real appreciation of how fast it is. And, as you mentioned with nets sometimes getting in the way, how about other players too! I don't like sitting that low as i find you miss a lot of the play, but it's something that's nice to do once every year or two just to remind you of not only the speed of the game, but the size of the guys out there! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 12:27:47
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@ polishexpress
<math>
to get 500 heads out of 1000 tosses, you aren't indicating a particular result for each individual toss, only that out of the 1000, 500 are heads. With that in mind, it becomes a problem of binomial distribution.
A coin toss is a perfect example of a binomial experiment - each event in the experiment has 2 possible outcomes, and the probability of each outcome for each individual test happening is the same each time. See this website for the math involved, and there is even a link to a binomial calculator near the bottom:
http://stattrek.com/Lesson2/Binomial.aspx
You can just plug in the values into the calculator (number of trial=1000, number of successes (in this case, number of heads)=500, prob in each trial=0.5
Your math is correct if you require each individual toss in the 1000 to come specifically as heads or tails to get your 500 heads.
</math> |
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Guest2901
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Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:23:10
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@Nuxfan Thanks! forgot about binomial experiments. I should have remembered though, just took a stats class with a section on it about a year ago! Mind mind is currently bogged down with recursion, trees, traversals etc, so I don't pay attention to stats math much |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:23:36
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oops, 2901 is me  |
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The Challenge Rule 
