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Guest6583
( )

Posted - 01/03/2011 :  20:36:40  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Who is the best allaround NHL player between Jonathan Toews and Ryan Kesler ?

Choices:

Jonathan Toews
Ryan Kesler

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2011 :  23:20:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a little surprised seeing Kesler leading this poll, but then again, it was obviously put up on this site late tonight while most back east and even in the central are likely asleep!

I love Kesler as a player and even moreso because he's a Canuck, but no way do i put him up there with Toews, at least not yet. I will concede, that over the past month he's prob been as good or better than Toews but i need to see a lot more of the same to consider him as good as JT.

Both great hockey players, but Toews is at the very least, a slight step up on Kes. Pretty sure there's not a gm in the leauge who'd take Kesler over Toews if they could choose one to start a new team with.

Pretty sure the numbers on this poll will swing in JT's favour before i rise tomorrow morning!

Edited by - Alex116 on 01/03/2011 23:21:19
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  02:24:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
could someone who has voted for Kesler at least post an argument as to why you would chose him? because i you would have to be a fool to take Kesler over Toews

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  05:05:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't say a "fool" to take Kesler over Toews, but . . . to me he is clearly a bit more valuable.

Kesler is solid player, he's reached 75 points playing with the Sedins only on the power play, and he will get you 25 to maybe 30 (this year, at least) goals. He plays the pk as well, and is a solid defensive player to boot.

Toews has all the same attributes, except he is possibly a bit better defensively even than Kesler; he has been a Stanley Cup playoffs MVP; he is the captain of a team that just won the cup; and it appears that he has even more upside. His highest total so far is 69 points as opposed to 75 for Kesler, but he has hit 34 goals and is on that same pace this year, where he should break the 70 point mark.

I would say that they are a saw-off everywhere almost, except that Toews edges Kesler for leadership; playoff performance (good under pressure, experience); and future potential (I think Kesler has hit his high water mark, whereas Toews hasn't yet).

Would love to have both on the Leafs though.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  08:31:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said Slozo. I certainly wouldn't call someone a fool for picking Kesler and the fact that his career best point total is higher would be one great argument in his favour but Toews resume is def better at this point.

Oh, and his 75 points were NOT playing PP time with the Sedin's. That's something new this year. He was a regular on our 2nd PP unit last year! So, who knows where this could lead?

However, one thing you forgot to mention about Toews, aside from his cup, his MVP in the Cup and his captaining of the cup winner, was his performance here in Vancouver at the Olympics! Some seem to forget that he quietly led Team Canada in points, tied for the tournament lead in assists, got Canada off to a quick start in the Gold Medal Match vs US with the first goal of the game, AND was named the tournament's top forward! Not a bad couple weeks for the guy. Just shows you what he can do under pressure on a great team!

Not taking anything away from Kesler's performance at the Olympics or here in Vancouver, but Toews might just be the best "non PPG" player in a LONG time!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  08:39:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They are both pretty even players:

- both are good for 70-ish points, and play first line PP and primary PK
- both are great 2-way players
- both play hard fast games

I give the edge to Toews only because of leadership. As Slozo says, he captained the Hawks to a Stanley cup victory last year, and that says something. I personally think he is one of the best 5 captains in the NHL right now, and that is something that Kesler will likely never be. Toews is also younger than Kesler, and therefore probably has more upside.

That being said - I do think Kesler is the better defensive forward, he doesn't get nominated for the Selke trophy again and again by accident.

It should also be noted, Kesler hit his career high last year while NOT playing with the Sedin's on the #1 PP unit. That move is new this year, last year he was on the second unit and centered the second line. To hit 75 points while not playing on your #1 line is a pretty good achievement. Toews on the other hand plays regularly with Kane and/or Hossa on the first PP unit and plays on the first line in CHI.

Edited by - nuxfan on 01/04/2011 09:04:52
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Guest0015
( )

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  09:58:03  Reply with Quote
Toews over Kesler anytime.
Kesler only plays well when he "feels" like it.
Kesler has a strange streak in him, just look at his commentary during the Can. Winter Olympics... I don't trust that guy.
Toews is MUCH more professional at a younger age than Kesler.
And Toews is Canadian.
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Guest6583
( )

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  10:06:28  Reply with Quote
I pick Ryan Kesler.
First of all, He is way more imposing and intimidating than Toews; when Kesler is in front of the other team's net, there's a goal in the next 30 seconds, whether or not it's scored by him, and on the defensive end, the canucks are the best team and KEsler is part of the reason why...Luongo (.917 save%, 14th in the league) is good, but the 95 GA of the Canucks are not due to him. He gets more ice time on the power play and on the shorthanded than Toews, and he is the most used forward of the Canucks (20:35 TOI)....who are, sorry for Hawks fans,,,a WAY better team than Chicago.

Kesler:
- gets more points than Toews,
-is better on the plus-minus,
-gets more ice time, even though he's on the second line
-doesnt play with players such as Sharp, Kane, Hossa, which makes him an independant player
-is as much or even a better all around player
- Kesler is the best

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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  10:44:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I pick Ryan Kesler.
First of all, He is way more imposing and intimidating than Toews; when Kesler is in front of the other team's net, there's a goal in the next 30 seconds, whether or not it's scored by him, and on the defensive end, the canucks are the best team and KEsler is part of the reason why...Luongo (.917 save%, 14th in the league) is good, but the 95 GA of the Canucks are not due to him. He gets more ice time on the power play and on the shorthanded than Toews, and he is the most used forward of the Canucks (20:35 TOI)....who are, sorry for Hawks fans,,,a WAY better team than Chicago.

Kesler:
- gets more points than Toews,
-is better on the plus-minus,
-gets more ice time, even though he's on the second line
-doesnt play with players such as Sharp, Kane, Hossa, which makes him an independant player
-is as much or even a better all around player
- Kesler is the best



Good arguments.
How come the Blackhawks have such a bad season, with all the great players they have? Kesler­­­­­­­­ over Toews

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  11:02:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans? Beans? Where are you? I can't wait for you to weigh in on this topic! AND, if somehow you pick Kesler over Toews, i'll have to assume you've been hypnotized by a Canucks fan over the holiday season . Even with your complimentary words of the Kesler of late......

Anyway, i just knew the silly arguments would come out eventually.

Guest0015 just had to bring up Kesler's comments from the Olympics for the hundredth time! Time and time again i defend his comments and I'm freakin' Canadian! I still say he said what he said in the spirit of competition and i'd have had no prob with any Canadian player saying the same about the Americans (team).
Toews is Canadian? Whoopee, this simply shows your bias in a debate over which player is better! Does the fact Toews is Canadian make him better than Peter Forsberg ever was? I wouldn't doubt it in your mind!

Guest6583 (and Go_Habs_Go who agrees) says "when Kesler is in front of the other team's net, there's a goal in the next 30 seconds". Really? Everytime? I won't even bother arguing this.
Canucks are a better team than Chicago? Sure, maybe this year, but need i remind you of the past 2 or 3? This makes Kesler better how? Does that mean that last year when Chi was winning the cup that John Madden was a better player than Kesler?
My favorite might be your "Kesler is the best" statement. I sure hope you mean "the best of the two of them"? "Kesler is better" might have served you better if that's what you meant, but i'm not sure?
As for you GHG, just how bad is the Hawks season??? There're a grand total of 2pts out of 4th place in the west! They lost how many starters in the offseason? Byfuglien, Burrish, Ladd, Madden, Niemi, etc. They've been hit by injuries badly this year. Is this really "such a bad season"???


ETA....sorry GHG, just read your comment in the "Lapierre" thread and now your comments here make a little more sense. Well, not more sense at all in fact, but your "Lapierre was the best" post gives me a better idea of your age, hockey knowledge, etc.....

Edited by - Alex116 on 01/04/2011 11:04:36
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Guest9784
( )

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  11:33:09  Reply with Quote
Both are very good but I give the slight nod to Toews (and I'm from Vancouver).

To the guy who said Kes would score 25 to 30 this year: he already has 19 with more than half the season left! He'll easily get 30, in my opinion.

Kesler is a perennial Selke trophy candidate, with a near 60% faceoff win percentage and 30 goal/70 point potential every year. I don't know of too many teams who wouldn't want a guy like that on their team.
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  11:37:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Concerning the "when Kesler is in front of the other team's net, there's a goal in the next 30 seconds"...cant you see there's an exageration..it just means he's dominant when he's in front of the net. And concerning my hockey knowledge and age,etc... I am a french canadian, from montreal, and Lapierre was the best french canadian player on the team...and every montreal fan from montreal loved lapierre, maybe you dont know a lot about the montreal fans cuz you've never been here...but saying "Lapierre was the best" doesnt really mean that i think he was the best hockey player, its just a recognition. Lapierre was a symbol in MTL.

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  12:41:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Toews because he`s better at playing hockey
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  12:42:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps you should make a better effort to define exactly what you mean. As far as Lapierre is concerned, you're the first person i've EVER heard speak of him as you have. As far as the "best french Canadian player" on the team, so be it. Unfortunately, there are only 4 or 5 on the roster that i can think of off the top of my head, none of who are significant really. If saying "Lapierre is the best" is some sort of "Hab fan" chant or saying, you're right, i don't know anything about it but to blankly state that makes little to no sense to most knowledgable hockey fans, regardless of their knowledge of the Canadiens. Oh, btw, i'm very familiar with the team having grown up in my early years as a fan (due to my father's love of them). If not for the Canucks, i'd be a Montreal fan before any other team.

Regardless, welcome to the site and be patient. Louis Leblanc should be along soon......
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  12:53:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, and sorry for my lack of precision. And yes Louis Leblanc is a good prospect. Go Team Canada !

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  12:55:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nonetheless, Toews might be a better player than Kesler, but it's arguable, as we can see in the poll. About 38% voted Kesler

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  13:03:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, I am not taking Kesler over Toews. Not because of my like or dislike for either, but simple performance matters.

Some may argue that Toews has been on great teams when he won and I could not argue that. However, Toews has won on virtually every team he has ever played on. Let's take a look at Toews' resume really quickly.

-2005-U17 World Championship Gold Medal as captain.
-2005-2007-2 seasons in NCAA, 2 seasons in the Frozen Four
-2006-U20 World Championship Gold Medal (youngest player on the team)
-2007-U20 World Championship Gold Medal as captain and tourney all star (Who can forget that sick shoot out when I believe he scored 3 straight goals)
-2007 World Championship - Gold Medal playing a junior on a team of NHLers'
-2008 World Championship - Silver Medal(after playing as a rookie in Chicago and not making the playoffs)
-2009-Chicago - Went to the West Semi's
-2010-Winter Olympic Gold Medal - Leading scorer, top Forward, and Tourney All Star
-2010-Stanley Cup Champion as Captain and Conn Smythe Winner

Psssss......He's only 22 yrs old!!!


Not only does Toews win literally every where he has ever played but he is almost always the best player on the ice in the biggest games. He has that something. That "je ne c'est quoi," that players either have or don't have.

Toews has that. Kesler hasn't shown that yet. At least not to the degree that Toews has.

Toews, and it's not even close.

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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
360 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2011 :  13:23:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lol Alex 116 i was just about to post about Leblanc being the next coming and GHG i fail to see how a player "Lapierre" who fights with his own teammates, sticks a guy in the balls and hides behind gill so he won't get killed (just a reference to his on ice cowardness ala Avery or Carcillo) cherps all game, has no respect for the game can be a symbol in a city with the richest of hockey traditions and the deepest of knowledge about the game. Are you trying to tell us that habs nation is now honoring DB's as oppose to the greats of the past, like Belliveau, Richard's, shutt, and the list goes on for about another 100 players. There is only one french canadian who was ever allowed to be a DB in mtl and he cannot hear what i am saying as he has his stanley cup rings in his ears if your old enough you'll get the reference.

Anyway back on track, I went with kesler even though this could be a draw as both along with datsuyk zetterberg and crosby are amongst the best overall players in the league. 3 yrs from now i can agree that hands down it will be Toews as he will becoming into or approaching his prime and baring injury the elevator has many more levels to reach where as kesler has almost hit the top floor

Everyone has broken down their points so i need not write anything long which will surely duplicate many others points and Beans has yet to get involved so i want to save room on the pg for him :).

Right now:
Points - Advantage Kesler not knocking Mason Raymond & Samuelson but they are not Kane, Hossa, Sharp, whom Toews would normally play with atleast one.

Leadership - Hands down Toews as many indicated what he has done the last yr has been special.

Defensively & Faceoff - is a Draw

I gave Kesler the edge for now simply from an offensive standpoint he can accomplish more with a little less talent and his size and surprising speed give him the edge for me against Toews if we were to throw them in a corner and tell them to battle. His age has allowed him to develop man strength where as Toews is still developing which believe it or not is a huge advantage when trying to gain seperation.

As I said though ask me in three yrs maybe sooner and my answer could very well be different. Flip a coin as neither is a bad choice to build a team around.


Lemieux owns Gretzky
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2011 :  08:06:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Go_Habs_Go

Concerning the "when Kesler is in front of the other team's net, there's a goal in the next 30 seconds"...cant you see there's an exageration..it just means he's dominant when he's in front of the net. And concerning my hockey knowledge and age,etc... I am a french canadian, from montreal, and Lapierre was the best french canadian player on the team...and every montreal fan from montreal loved lapierre, maybe you dont know a lot about the montreal fans cuz you've never been here...but saying "Lapierre was the best" doesnt really mean that i think he was the best hockey player, its just a recognition. Lapierre was a symbol in MTL.

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet



What??? Woah woah woah you ain't the only Montrealer on this site,, i don't know what you are talking about symbol? this is what gives french Canadian's a bad name , why because his name is Maxime Lapierre he is some sort of symbol?? really he is a marginal thrid liner and a solid fourth liner who is as classless as they come on the ice. Sure he was good for this team, a symbol is Jean Believeau Patrick Roy Guy Lafleur, and not because they were french, Come on MAthieu Darche is more of a symbol than Lapierre!

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Guest7886
( )

Posted - 01/05/2011 :  10:00:23  Reply with Quote
My first response was going to be "That's a no brainer... Toews."

Then I looked at the stats and it's closer than I expected. Looking at the present, I'd still picks Toews. Looking at the future, it once again becomes a large margin in Toews' favour.

In my view, Toews has demonstrated more than once that he is quite simply a franchise player. Kesler has not (and I don't ever expect him to). Kesler's also closer to his peak so you can still get more productive years out of Toews. Barring injuries, 4 years from now Toews will still be improving, whereas Kesler will be starting his decline...
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2011 :  17:54:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that Toews is a better prospect, because he's younger. But if we look at now, the present, it's arguable.

Kesler will decline in 4 years ?? Come on...he's 26 and keeps improving season after season

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Guest7694
( )

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  01:09:41  Reply with Quote
Fine, GHG, I'll do the math for you. If he's 26 now then he will be umm 30 in four years. 30 years old is most certainly past the prime of any given player and thus Kesler will be declining once he reaches that age.
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  05:00:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's ridiculous. Just take Martin St-Louis for example

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Guest2263
( )

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  08:57:41  Reply with Quote
Toews over Kes by a shade. Presently.

Toews b/c he's the MVP in olympics AND the stanley cup.
Toews b/c he is a great leader.
Toews b/c he probably has better offensive upside considering their early years. But Kesler gets the nod for current scoring pace and career highs.

Kesler b/c he's a better faceoff man. By a shade.
Kesler b/c he's a better defensive forward. (he was nominated for selke twice, not Toews) ergo Kesler is more annoying to play against.
Kesler b/c he's a better penalty killer.

Time will tell who will be better. But if you had to bet now? Toews by a shade. And i'm a Canucks fan.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  09:45:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really the whole "age arguement" is fruitless. As it always seems to in threads / questions like this, it boils down to this. Is the question, "who is the better player today"? Is it "who would you rather have to build a team around"? Is it "who would you want in an expansion draft today"? Is it "who would you rather have going into the playoffs this year"? etc, etc...

Because Kesler is 4 years older, many would take Toews if building a new team. However, some might pick Kesler today if going into the playoffs (although with Toews track record, it'd be tough to fathom). Anyway, talking about how one is going to start to decline earlier than the other because he is older is ridiculous if your'e talking about who the better player is this year or today! It'd be like saying i'd take Stamkos over Gretzky. Well i would.......today. (and even that choice might require the Great One to come tryout for me)
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
268 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  10:00:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are kidding to say this is even close I would hope? Let me ask if you had bet all you own and you had to choose either of these players to be the representative of your assets you can't tell me with the two side by side accomplishments that you would pick Kessler over Toews!! If you would then join my poker night please!
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
360 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  11:29:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oilearl the question is not who would you start the franchise around it is which of the two is the better all around player right now that arguement is actually very close. Without a doubt Toews is a proven leader so a guy you want to be on the ice when a game or title is on the line. His development and overall skill at such at young age is clearly impressive. To start a team around the arguement is easily in Toews favor simply baring injury i am guarnteed to have him longer and with him being so young their are many more levels which his game could excel to.

However, with the question being right not you can give the edge and its only a slight edge to either player. Offensive production Kesler takes it, defensive reliability faceoffs included its a draw. I go with kesler right now simply because he is bigger, stronger and faster or just as fast which gives him the nod if they are to play a one - one game against one another which to me is the scenario you must always use if you are going to compare players. Take out any arguements about who they play with or how much ice time they get. Mono y Mono neither guy is a slouch and a bad option to rely on.

Lemieux owns Gretzky
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  11:44:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex 116...i know there was a lack of precision in the poll question (i was guest 6583). My question was more who is the best all-around player at the moment, not who would i pick for the future. In that case we could say that Brayden Schenn is better than Martin St-Louis, but this wouldnt be a relevant question.

OilEarl...com on. As we can see in the poll. 38% voted Kesler, so there's nothing obvious about Toews being WAY better than Kesler. In a poker night, wouldnt you play a hand with a 38% chance of winning? 62% chances of winning is better, but you never know what will come up at the flop. I'd love to be at your poker night.

However, with the question being right not you can give the edge and its only a slight edge to either player. Offensive production Kesler takes it, defensive reliability faceoffs included its a draw. I go with kesler right now simply because he is bigger, stronger and faster or just as fast which gives him the nod if they are to play a one - one game against one another which to me is the scenario you must always use if you are going to compare players. Take out any arguements about who they play with or how much ice time they get. Mono y Mono neither guy is a slouch and a bad option to rely on.

...thank you Mario66... i know some wont agree on what you said, but we can see that there are many opinions.

All in all, i think this subject is very debatable, and nothing is obvious about which one is better, whatever the arguments are.

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
268 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  11:59:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok fair enough if we look at them head to head I see Toews with a gold medal and top forward status!! A key component to the success of his team. We are in a regular season at this point so nothing has been proven or can be given except speculation if we are to spculate I still take Toews even with his injuries,
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  12:02:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GHG.....first off, i hope you didn't take my comments as to say that your question wasn't clear enough, i just wanted to bring up the fact that these questions often get skewed one way or another when not defined exactly the way they are meant. I assumed you meant what you did in that "which player is the better player today"? It still can be turned one way or the other, but i understood your intent and voted the way i did based on this. Really there's no denying Kesler is having as big an impact on the Canucks as Toews is on the Hawks. Is either in the running for the Hart? No, but if either were, it could be argued that Kesler would be there above JT if not for the past month or so alone!

Either way, i think it's a great question and a great comparison. A year or more ago, these two wouldn't be in the same sentence. Shows just how far Kesler has progressed in his play!

I also agree with your comments to OilEarl.....it's not as one sided as it once was and to say someone is "kidding" to be picking Kesler is ridiculous. You make your comparison as to what either has accomplished? Who cares? The question wasn't asking who's been more successful!
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Guest7752
( )

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  13:01:58  Reply with Quote
TOEWS over Kesler ANYTIME !!!!!

First because he is Canadian as Guest 0015 said.

Second because of the numbers he put up in his first three NHL years compared to Kesler.
If you're going to compare apples to apples - compare the first three years - don't just look at what they are doing today...
It took Kesler about 5 years to begin putting up numbers equivalent to Toews' numbers in HIS first three years!

So here goes:
Toews / 23 years old – drafted first round, 3rd overall at 18 years-old
Year 1 in NHL: 64 games – 24 goals/30 assists for 54 points
Year 2 in NHL: 82 games – 34 goals/35 assists for 69 points
Year 3 in NHL: 76 games – 25 goals/43 assists for 68 points

Kessler / 27 years old – drafted first round, 23rd overall at 19 years old
Year 1 in NHL: 82 games – 10 goals/13 assists for 23 points
Year 2 in NHL: 48 games – 6 goals/10 assists for 16 points
Year 3 in NHL: 80 games – 21 goals/16 assists for 37 points

It's not even close !!!!!!!!
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  13:47:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What a horrible argument. Here are Henrik Sedin's stats for his first three seasons :

2000-2001: 82 games, 29 points
2001-2002: 82 games, 36 points
2002-2003: 78 games, 39 points

Here are Jussi Jokinen's stats for his first three seasons:

2005-2006: 81 games, 55 points
2006-2007: 82 games, 48 points
2007-2008: 72 games, 42 points

Does this make Jussi Jokinen a better overall player than Henrik Sedin, who won the Art Ross last year ? Is this really comparing apples to apples ?

And the question was in terms of present, not past, not future.

"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
360 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  14:04:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest7752 Posted - 01/06/2011 : 13:01:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOEWS over Kesler ANYTIME !!!!!

First because he is Canadian as Guest 0015 said.

Second because of the numbers he put up in his first three NHL years compared to Kesler.
If you're going to compare apples to apples - compare the first three years - don't just look at what they are doing today...
It took Kesler about 5 years to begin putting up numbers equivalent to Toews' numbers in HIS first three years!

So here goes:
Toews / 23 years old – drafted first round, 3rd overall at 18 years-old
Year 1 in NHL: 64 games – 24 goals/30 assists for 54 points
Year 2 in NHL: 82 games – 34 goals/35 assists for 69 points
Year 3 in NHL: 76 games – 25 goals/43 assists for 68 points

Kessler / 27 years old – drafted first round, 23rd overall at 19 years old
Year 1 in NHL: 82 games – 10 goals/13 assists for 23 points
Year 2 in NHL: 48 games – 6 goals/10 assists for 16 points
Year 3 in NHL: 80 games – 21 goals/16 assists for 37 points

Guest if you are going to compare as you say apples - apples atleast make sure you are picking your apples from the right tree. The question is not whom of the two started their careers off better but who is a better player today. You forget that Kesler was a third or fourth liner coming into the league on a time who had one best first lines in hockey where as Toews came in to Chicago as the saviour of the organization who played first line minutes and all scenario's.

The relevance of your point is like myself saying Felix Potvin was a better goalie then Dominik Hasek (sat behind belfour in chicago) just because his first three yrs where more impressive. It's easy to pick stats out over the course of someone's career to prove the validity of your point. But stats dont always tell the story. Anyone who lacks familarity with hockey would wonder how the hockey enthusiast could claim that toews is a top 5 - 10 overall player in the league when his yearly stats show him down amongst 15 - 25.

Not knocking your claim that Toews is the better player or soon will be. But to pick stats out that have no relevance to the question especially when it is concerned with two guys less known for their offense and more so known for their defensive prowess is fairy anaemic.

Lemieux owns Gretzky
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Guest6911
( )

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  14:04:13  Reply with Quote
TSN has Kesler ranked 9th in the NHL currently. Toews is ranked 23rd.
Just sayin'.

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?ID=10467
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doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
278 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  14:05:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Toews is better, to be breif, he is a great clutch player(shootout hat trick, playoffs, all the points beans said) and he is just a winner

Henderson has scored for Canada
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  14:22:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6911

TSN has Kesler ranked 9th in the NHL currently. Toews is ranked 23rd.
Just sayin'.

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?ID=10467




This is a fantasy ranking based on what a player will do for your fantasy or pool team. This has zero relevance to the game of hockey and who is a better all around player.

Just sayin'
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  15:24:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Points is often the way people will judge who's a better player and a lot of the time it's the best way, but not always. I will agree that comparing the two guys first three seasons point totals is assinine! What a crazy argument to make! Thank you Mario for providing us with one simple comparison of the many that are out there!

One thing i've noticed though is some saying that Kesler is better at faceoffs? Well, perhaps throughout his career (i don't know but since we're comparing "today" i'm not gonna research it anyway) but not this year. Here's this years numbers:

Toews 495 faceoff wins vs 334 losses = 59.7%
Kesler 404 faceoff wins vs 299 losses = 57.5%

Doesn't seem like a huge difference, but it is a difference nonetheless PLUS it's in Toews' favour! So, those claiming Kesler's better at faceoffs at this point, think again.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  15:29:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i have 2 question, who is Vancouvers best player?

Who is Chicago's best player?



"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  17:02:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Currently, Vancouver's best player is Kesler. He has been the best player for Vancouver nearly all year IMO.

I don't know who Chicago's best player currently is, I don't see them enough. Toews/Kane/Sharp seem to be doing all the work for them, so I'd have to say one of those 3.

Why do you ask?
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  17:13:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

Currently, Vancouver's best player is Kesler. He has been the best player for Vancouver nearly all year IMO.

I don't know who Chicago's best player currently is, I don't see them enough. Toews/Kane/Sharp seem to be doing all the work for them, so I'd have to say one of those 3.

Why do you ask?



well another way to compare these players is how important they are to their team, it's very different being the go to guy and being just a very good supportering actor to the guy if you know what i mean


"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2011 :  17:54:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pasty, i think i get your point, but i'm not sure i agree with it at all times. I assume the answer you were looking for was Henrik and Toews? Aside from those possibly being arguable, it's tough to compare like that. Here's an example. Crosby is Pittsburgh's best player and Kessel is prob Toronto's best, agreed? If so, does that make Kessel is better than Malkin? Do you follow what i'm saying? A teams second best player is not always inferior to another team's best?

I'm not even claiming Kesler is the Canucks best. Some might say Henrik or Daniel, some maybe even Luongo?

The more i post on this thread, the more i have to go back and make sure i really picked Toews as i always seem to be backing Kesler!
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