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Guest4178
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 Posted - 03/21/2011 : 09:18:35
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In Saturday's game between the Bruins and the Leafs, Dion Phaneuf accepted Nathan Horton's challenge to fight. Phaneuf smartly, or cowardly (depending on your bent) declined an invitation to fight Zdeno Chara earlier in the game. (It is important to note that the Phaneuf-Horton fight took place when the Leafs were leading 5-1, with about 8 minutes to go in the 3rd period.)
As the fight was about to start, Horton motioned to take off his helmet (which he did), and Phaneuf appeared to think about it, but he made the decision to fight with his helmet on. Phaneuf was not a passive participant. He definitely wanted to fight Horton, and shoved aside a linesman to do so. After the fight, you could see that Horton was upset with Phaneuf, probably because he kept his helmet on. (And maybe because Phaneuf edged him in the fight.)
It's worth noting that these two players fought each other in October. Back then, both players took off their helmets before they fought, and Phaneuf actually appeared to do so first. (Horton handily won that fight by the way.)
So the question is: what is the "code" with players taking off their helmets when fighting? If both players did so in a previous fight, is it expected that both should do so when they fight again?
Was Horton foolish to think that Phaneuf would take off his helmet the second time they fought? Was Phaneuf smart (especially with the rate of concussions taking place) to keep his helmet on?
Should a player who wears a visor take off his helmet before fighting? And if not, should players who wear visors just not fight?
I'm interested to hear what others think on the subject of removing your helmet when fighting. Or comments specifically related to the two fights between Phaneuf and Horton. (But not about fighting in the game.) The topic about "whether we need fighting in the game" has been discussed many times before in this forum, and while it's anyone's prerogative to discuss it again, can you kindly do so in another thread.
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Guest4803
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 09:42:20
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| Dump the lid if your going to tilt, especially if the other guy already has, if not you should be given an extra 2 mins for unsportsmanlike conduct. |
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 09:47:27
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Usually when I see a fight it appears that the two combatants are just punching each others helmets and it seems like an idiotic thing to do. I don't really care if players fight or not but with the risk of injury seeming to be quite high (stupid stuff like Taylor Hall hurting his ankle during a fight) swinging away at a hard piece of plastic on someone's head seems pretty ridiculous.
So that said, I think if a couple players aren't regular fighters and want to go, helmets should come off...
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:06:30
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I gotta ask, when did this moronic trend of taking off the helmets to fight start?
I have never seen anything so stupid, as the showboat, code-shmode, take hockey to a sideshow act, of 2 players throwing their helmets down to the ice, BEFORE, they commence to punching each other in the melons and possibly throwing each other to the ice, on said melons.
IDIOTS!!!
A hockey fight is supposed to be a 'heat of the battle', type affair, when the physicalities between 2 teams or players, reach a level of intensity that boils over as tempers and competitiveness, make the combatants want to fight. Man, that sounds even more stupid when I see it typed out!!
Bad enough the hockey fight has become the sideshow crap it is in most games nowadays, Phaneuf/Horton included in that by the way, but to risk head injury, because some lunkheads(read as overzealous fighting supporters), think fighting with a visor is 'against code', or thinking that is better to save a knuckle at the risk of brain trauma, makes absolutely no sense to me, none whatsoever.
I won't go so far as to say fighting shouldn't be in the game, although lately I am leaning in that direction, but to see that antics that go on around it, like this stupid helmet toss, do make me wonder WTF???
Silliness promoted by the silly. Anyone who see this as a 'code' type of violation falls directly in to that category, IMHO. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:21:49
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Very well said FER & I will take it one step further that the protypical pre planned fight is useless to the game of hockey. Serves no purpose and your kidding if you are one of those from the school of thought that it is a momentum changer. To throw your helmet down and say lets do this is hardly changing any momentum, simply slowing the game down. Especially, considering most of these pre determined fights and regular combatants have little impact on the game itself.
Igninla fighting Lecalvier although the risk is stupid can be motivational to their teammates, but how often do we really see these impact players risk their skill to potentially change the game. "I think i can hear Sheldon Souray saying something way down in the minors"
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:32:35
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| ummm probably sometime after helmets were made mandatory by the league, which wasnt really to long ago, in the good ole days theyre werent any helmets to shed. If both players are wearing visors let them fight with lids on or off but it should be one or the other. |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 11:45:45
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| I dont think that there is any "code" to take your helmets off but genarally if one guy wants to they ask and not just do it. I had a fight this year in the heat of the moment and the other guy said lets flip off our chin straps I said sure and we went on to beat the crap out of each other. If I said no he wouldn't have done it. I think if Horton asked and Phenauf said yes then Horton has every right to be mad. If he said no or Horton just did it expecting Phenauf to flip off his lid then thats Hortons problem for taking his lid off. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 13:58:37
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Tbar i have to ask how could something be heat of the moment when players take the time out to ask if they would like to follow a procedure of taking the hemlet off? Heat of the moment is to do something without thinking simply retaliating with physical contact. Recent example would Be Weber getting mixed up with I believe Clutterbuck then getting up and launching him into the boards. Another example would be Lecalvier elbowing Subban behind the net, Subban slashing him back and then Lecalvier swinging for the fences. You can not call something heat of the moment if their is a preconceived agreement between players.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 14:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
I dont think that there is any "code" to take your helmets off but genarally if one guy wants to they ask and not just do it. I had a fight this year in the heat of the moment and the other guy said lets flip off our chin straps I said sure and we went on to beat the crap out of each other. If I said no he wouldn't have done it. I think if Horton asked and Phenauf said yes then Horton has every right to be mad. If he said no or Horton just did it expecting Phenauf to flip off his lid then thats Hortons problem for taking his lid off.
If you are an NHL player, or a semi-pro player trying to make the bigs, or even a junior player, looking to try and advance yourself to make a career out of hockey, then maybe I can understand the need to fight, sort of. It is apparently what society accepts at this level.
Anything else, is nothing more than childish pretending, as there is nothing other than your own self-inflated levels of competitiveness and intensity to blame for what, in all other parts of society, is considered assault.
And to take off the only piece of equipment protecting your head while doing this, in a context that means nothing in the big picture of life, yet everything if you get your skull caved in, leaving one potentially unable to function and contribute to life anymore, part of acceptable process is ludicrous and assinine
Now excuse me, I have to find someone to get me a stepladder, it's higher up here on this soapbox than I thought.
But really, there is no situation in hockey other than the levels I mentioned, where fighting is necessary, period. If you are not a pro or have a chance to be a pro, you are a pretender, a thug, a law breaker.
Those who disagree, please keep you helmets on if you fight, you can't afford to lose the gray matter. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 14:58:38
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| hey fat elvis...why dont you watch a new sport if your so appauld by a tilt here and there....may i suggest KNITTING |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 15:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4803
hey fat elvis...why dont you watch a new sport if your so appauld by a tilt here and there....may i suggest KNITTING
I'll take up the knitting needles right after you pick up a dictionary.
I'm appalled at some people's spelling at times!
I'm not against the odd tilt here and there, here, a boxing ring, there, an octagon.
Hey, I'll even enjoy the odd hockey fight when it's pros or juniors. Two guys in a senior men's beer league? Please.
Justifying that is akin to.......geez if you justify that you probably have to go look up 'akin', I'll wait.
Careful of those knuckles while heading to your library, they skin easily when they drag like that. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 16:43:29
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Guest 4178...really, who the hell in their right mind would want to fight Z.Chara ?? The guy is a giant !!! It is for the normal mortal a no - win battle. Why was he so pissed at Phaneuf anyway i wonder ?? Don`t see Chara pick very many fights.
Phaneuf is ( was ) a player who throws his weight around ( for the last 10 leaf games anyway ). Opposing players are always trying to entice this type of hockey player into fights. You can`t fight every time another player challenges you, Phaneuf can fight every night if he accepted all on - comers, you just can`t do it.
The leafs have not got too many players they would miss from injury...but Phaneuf is certainly one they would miss the way he is playing right now.
When Phaneuf is at his best he really gets under the skin of opposing players, right now he is doing this. Scott Stevens was execellent at this...never seen him fight though / / Chris Pronger is one of the leagues best also ( driving players nuts ) who sees him fight ??
Plenty of effective punishing NHL defenseman made careers dishing out big - time hits but never fought.
Not that i have anything againist fighting mind you.....just leave it to players like Colton Orr and the Boggy man...mainly  |
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Guest4125
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 16:44:25
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getting back to the original subject.....Phanueff should have taken off his helmet, especially because he wears a visor.
also, it's true there was a challenge from Chara to fight earlier in the game, but it served no purpose for Phaneuff. it was already 4-1 at that point. the fight with Horton was at 5-1, but the two had already "warmed the water" so to speak, earlier in the 1st period. so it was a little bit different. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 16:46:25
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| Meet you at the library? Helmets on or off? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 17:18:00
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Correct me if I am wrong but the entire take your helmet off thing started so players would not break their hands on the other guys helmet.
Little bit of logic here:
Break hands on helmet??
or
Break head on ice??
Rarely does a fight end with both skater standing up. More often than not, when one of the two meatballs get tired he will throw the other guy to the ice. If I know that I could be thrown to the ice in the fight, more than likely backwards, why on earth would I take my helmet off???
You want to fight me, fight me. If not, skate away. Or better yet, play effin' hockey already! Hockey fights are garbage 99% of the time. They are not entertaining. If you seriously think that a hockey fight is entertainment you are kidding yourself. Nothing but fists thrown and most of them missing. It's like a junior high fight with the only difference being the size of the guys fighting. The intelligence levels are about the same.
If you want to watch a fight, watch a combat sport. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/21/2011 17:19:08 |
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Guest8149
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 18:56:23
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I'm not necessarily a proponent of fighting, but here's some additional "logic. "
In most hockey fights, players throw and connect about 10 -20 punches to the head each way, so with helmets on, you're virtually guaranteed to rap your knuckles on your opponent's head numerous times. (And they do.)
As far as "head hitting the ice" is concerned, it rarely happens. The potential for danger is there, but how many players have been injured by hitting their head on the ice in a hockey fight?
With respect to comments about fighters being morons or idiots, I don't agree. Sure, there are a few idiots out there, but hockey fights are part of the game. (And most NHL players are not idiots.). 98% of NHL players recently polled said fighting has a place in the game, and while I agree that fans should have a say in the game ( and they do, and they don't necessarily all think the same way), we should have some respect for what the players
think about issues like fighting in the game.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 19:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8149
I'm not necessarily a proponent of fighting, but here's some additional "logic. "
In most hockey fights, players throw and connect about 10 -20 punches to the head each way, so with helmets on, you're virtually guaranteed to rap your knuckles on your opponent's head numerous times. (And they do.)
As far as "head hitting the ice" is concerned, it rarely happens. The potential for danger is there, but how many players have been injured by hitting their head on the ice in a hockey fight?
With respect to comments about fighters being morons or idiots, I don't agree. Sure, there are a few idiots out there, but hockey fights are part of the game. (And most NHL players are not idiots.). 98% of NHL players recently polled said fighting has a place in the game, and while I agree that fans should have a say in the game ( and they do, and they don't necessarily all think the same way), we should have some respect for what the players
think about issues like fighting in the game.
Thanks for bringing this up Guest8149. Go and google Don Sanderson and see if it changes your thoughts at all.
I never said the pro, semi-pro, and major junior fighters were morons or idiots, and at the pro level, they are actually doing a job, as hard as that is for me, anyways, to believe. As long as society accepts that part of the game, there will always be some Boogaard out there able to make a million bucks, placating the less intelligent who actually think a player like him has a place. Kinda clears up who the idiots may be, no?
There are many who actually think that fighting in hockey, other than the pro level, is warranted, it's them that make me wonder if there isn't a village out there missing one of it's more popular citizens..
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 19:16:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4803
Meet you at the library? Helmets on or off?
Glad to see you have a sense of humor G4803!!
Helmets on of course, The King can't mess up the do!
uhhh Thank ya, Thank ya very much..... |
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Guest8149
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 19:46:08
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I don't have to google Don Sanderson. I'm quite familiar with the tragic story related to his death.
My comments were about pro hockey, and in particular, at the NHL level, so in that respect, and with all due respect, we don't completely disagree.
I think dialogue is very important, and my greater point is that we should all have input and opinions, and not just media and intellectuals. There are a great number of fans who enjoy the physical part of the game (including fighting), and just as you deserve a voice, so do they. Even if they cannot convey their thoughts in a superior literal fashion.
And to restate my earlier comment (and as a query), I ask you (and others) where we should view the input of the vast majority of NHLers who think fighting has a place in the
game? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 20:25:26
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Guest, do you have any factual evidence that NHLer's agree with fighting?? And survey?? Player poll?? Anything??
Think about this for one second.
866 players have laced up the skates for at least one game in the NHL this season. Of those player, 525 players do not have a single major penalty. More than 60% of the players have not fought once! Further to that, only 132 players have more than 2 majors. That means 687 players, or 80% of the NHL either do not fight or fight once or twice a year.
I don't think anyone is arguing the fight in the heat of the battle. But if one removed the top 30 fighters in the NHL (and their 420+ fights) does the NHL become a weaker product???
Sorry, but I had to say that and I know it wasn't on topic. Back to the topic, how many people have died by hitting their fist against a helmet??? |
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Guest8149
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
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Guest8149
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Posted - 03/21/2011 : 21:33:02
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Actually the majotity of NHL players have engaged in a fight. And for those who have not, they understand the game differently (I'm not saying better) than some fans. Gretzky was in three fights, and his opinion has never wavered - he thinks that fighting has a place in the game.
The vast majority of players accept fighting as part of the game, despite what you and others think, and my point is that they deserve a voice.
It might surprise you, but I do not have a conclusive opinion about fighting in the game, but I strongly believe that all points of views count, including NHL players who have the most to risk and gain, and not just pundits who express their opinions on forums just like this! |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 23:11:58
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The problem I have with fighting in hockey, is that it's acceptance at the NHL level has an impact in hockey at large. I have no opinion either way with hockey at the professional level, and other than the pre-determined side show tilt, between each teams genetic anomaly, which is ridicuous, I actually do see the necessity at times to allow the gloves to drop, and have no problem with it.....at the NHL level.
I just wonder if it is worth the trickle down effect it's acceptance at that level, has on our overall hockey culture. Fighting in beer leagues? Between mature men, with jobs and families and repsonsibilities? Crazy.
And this is the same throughout all levels of hockey, in some form or another. Sure some penalize heavier for it, but it is still an accepted part of the game, and at anything other than the elite level that is the NHL, I am not sure if this is right.
Is it a double standard to allow the fighting at the NHL level but no where else? I don't think so, we don't have unsanctioned boxing on the streets that is legal, we don't have MMA happening legally outside of the professional organizations, why hockey?
For some strange reason, it has always been acceptable to mimic that, worst part of the professional game. And now, to get back to the original post, we want to say it is only right that if one takes off his helmet, the other should too, just like the pros? So you don't hurt your hand?
We have already seen where the tragedy of this trickle down trend could end.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 05:04:52
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Fat Elvis, great points all around.
Obviously, you all know that have been here for any length of time that I think fighting should not be condoned or acepted, just like anything else that is illegal in hockey. There should be an appropriate punishment for it, more at the level of other violent, physical sports such as football or rugby.
IMHO, the existing culture of hockey needs to change. The majority of people brought up in a culture will, of course, be resistant to that change - that's natural. But we need to grow up, hockey.
Guest 8149 - I like your reasoned approach, and you make some interesting points. But again, to continually cite that players who were brought up in a culture where fighting was permitted, condoned, excused and promoted, is sort of beside the point, in my opinion. If doing this non-hockey play (which is an illegal action in the game, and which stops the game) has been condoned by the league and given light penalties, and the players have received all sorts of reasoning on why it is good for the game, protects the skilled players, etc - of course it will be fiercely defended. After all, the "fighters" are some of the nicest guys int he leagu, right? Protectors, buddies of the stars, etc . . . oh yeah, all around nice, great guys.
And many of them are nice guys. But listen to a thoughtful one like Laraque, and you will understand that in his deepest of wishes, he even wishes guys like him were not 'needed' (read his blog some time). Of course, the logic of this 'need' has been proven to be non-existent many times over . . . it's the old crutch of hockey arguments over fighting, "we need to protect the stars".
Are the stars protected? Is there any evidence of self-policing? And put away your instigator argument, give me evidence from before it was put in . . . it's the same situation.
Oh, right, I've gotten off topic.
Uh, Phaneuf? He can do what he wants. There is no code.
If there was some kind of high moral code, some tough guy would have mauled Cooke by now, way before he ever took out Savard, McDonagh or anyone else. Someone would have slew footed Downey, or given him a beating.
It hasn't happened. There is no code. It's every man for himself, basically. Yeah, teammates stick up for each other on a micro level, but on the macro level (league-wide), there is no respect for fellow players whatsoever.
Phaneuf, if he chooses to get into a fight, can save his noggin, he has every right as a human being to do so, while he and Horton stop the game.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 07:11:46
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[/quote]
There are many who actually think that fighting in hockey, other than the pro level, is warranted, it's them that make me wonder if there isn't a village out there missing one of it's more popular citizens..
[/quote]
FE do you or have you played hockey? Just generally curious. If so to what level did you play? Also I am curious what kind of senior hockey you think this is? This is a well-organized league with mostly ex WHL, Div. 1, and Jr.A hockey players. Its in its 60th season.
For every one of us in this league we got to this point playing the game with fighting involved and it doesn’t need to change now. 1 in 7 or so games has a fight and its usually the result of a dirty hit, how can you say that’s not needed.
I would hate to be on your line especially if I got elbowed in the face because your junk is going to roll up into your stomach and you’re going to skate to the bench instead of seeking retribution. That would probably piss me off more than the elbow.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 08:58:34
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Ok guys, both have opinions but neither should be calling out anyone's intelligence or integrity. Clean it up. Even
I gotta say this 'have your played hockey before' comment is old, tired, and really over used. You do not have to play hockey to have an opinion or knowledge about the game. It's like saying I have never been to the sun before so I can't comment that it's hot. It's a weak effort to bring across a point. The point that I think most can land on is that sports can get incredibly competitive and emotions run high. There is no doubt that most of us at one point or another have been engaged in some kind of competitive sport (or other activity). I once played basketball at a high level. I know Slozo played (still plays) volleyball at a very high level. I can assume that FER was once the World Champion of Sarcasm which will often get uber competitive.
So why is hockey the only sport where fighting is condoned??? And don't tell me any crap about the physicality of the game. Football, Rugby, Aussie Rules, even sports like basketball are physical. So why not let to rugby players stop the game and chuck fists for a while to settle a dispute???
Nothing relevant or logical can explain that piece.
So why should there be a 'code' for something that isn't part of the game anyway??? It may be part of the culture, but it is not part of the game. |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 09:14:21
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Beans it really does make a diffrence if you've played the game. You then fully understand what its like out on the ice when you get hit dirty or you get in a fight or whatever it may be. I watch Volleyball on ocasion and I cant comment to much on the game because i have never really played it. Basketball if you asked me its a sissy sport but that has no merit really because ive never really played it.
FE may have played at a high level I have no idea, I would be surprised if he has considering his stance on this but he may have. Im just curious if hes been in the trenches when s*** hits the fan. |
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Guest8136
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Posted - 03/22/2011 : 09:25:50
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Very thoughtful posts on this topic, enjoyed reading it from each side. While I do have fun watching the odd scrap in hockey at whatever level it's played, when it comes down to it my opinion echos that of FER, Slozo and Beans.
Tbar, I've played a lot of hockey including mens league, and usually it's the guys that are still way to emotionally invested or play like they still have a shot at the nhl that feel the need to fight. The guys that throw the dirty checks/stick work are the same. That, or they just have an aggression problem. Having also played football and many friends the have played a high level rugby, the emotions are as high in those sports and fighting is much less commonplace. MMA fighters show much more respect for their opponenets than the average nhl players do currently, and their meal money depends on knocking the other guy out.
I don't even know if I would bring my young son to a mens league game if I was still playing due to the nonsense being pulled there. Having to explain to him why to grown men with their own kids there were fighting seems silly to me. Although it does explain way each generation coming up still seems to have people that want fighting in the game.
As Beans said, someone is more than entitled to their opinion even if they haven't played much hockey. They still watch the game and pay to attend. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 09:27:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I can assume that FER was once the World Champion of Sarcasm which will often get uber competitive.
"was once"??? WTF? Prob still is!
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 09:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8136
.
As Beans said, someone is more than entitled to their opinion even if they haven't played much hockey. They still watch the game and pay to attend.
Guest you and Beans are 100% correct that people are more than welcome to comment whatever way they see fit.
I find that in most cases when a guy doesn't like fighting in hockey it’s because they've never really been deeply involved in the game. It sounds like you've played hockey and if you don’t like to bring your young son to the rink that’s your call.
A couple of your points thou, I don’t think its guys that have an "aggression problem" that fight so much, rather a hit gets thrown and a player turns their back or a bigger guy runs over a smaller guy etc. etc. I like the fact that I can stick up for my teammates or vice versa.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 09:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Beans it really does make a diffrence if you've played the game. You then fully understand what its like out on the ice when you get hit dirty or you get in a fight or whatever it may be. I watch Volleyball on ocasion and I cant comment to much on the game because i have never really played it. Basketball if you asked me its a sissy sport but that has no merit really because ive never really played it.
FE may have played at a high level I have no idea, I would be surprised if he has considering his stance on this but he may have. Im just curious if hes been in the trenches when s*** hits the fan.
Ok, so help me out with this. I have never played hockey so I don't understand a dirty hit but you have never played basketball and it's a sissy sport???
Hello Mr. Pot, my name is Kettle........
Just to tell you a little story, I was played in Alberta Provincial basketball by in the mid-90's. The first game we played I was elbowed in the face and broke my nose. No foul, no nothing. Matt Cooke type of elbow. The guy did not go for the ball or anything. Clear elbow square in the face.
Secondly, in that same tournament, we played against a team that had a referee that was a relative of a player on the other team. A guys Dad was reffing the same game his son was playing in! We had a lead after the first half. However, the second half the refs took over and called close to 30 fouls against us and 4 against them. We had to finish the game with 4 players as too may players fouled out. Lost the game and our chance at a championship we had been working on together as a group for 3 years. All taken away by refs.
Bottom line, I don't believe you can logically and legitimately say that hockey is more competative or more frustrating than any other sport simple because it is hockey. I just highlighted 2 situations that I have personally been involved in that had nothing to do with hockey but I can comfortably say are about as frustrating or competative as anything you or anyone else has been a part of.
I didn't have to fight. |
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Guest8136
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Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:03:11
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TBar, I get the desire to want revenge in the instances you say, but if players would stop with the dirty hit to start with (or they were punished appropriately) there wouldn't be the need to fight in retaliation. It's about respect on the ice when everyone has to go to work the next day, and for most guys in mens league it is there, but there is always a guy or two on each team, or one particular team as a whole that ruins it.
As far as a smaller and bigger player, as long as the check is clean, why the need to fight the guy? If a wide receiver gets popped by a linebacker in football you don't see an o-lineman running over and tossing off his helmet to fight. As one of the smaller players on the ice, I knew there was bigger guys and didn't expect someone to come over and protect me if I took a hit.
Having also played basketball, there is a difference in the type of emotion when legal body contact is in play. I can't explain it, it's just a different feeling. Why that has to translate to fighting in hockey is beyond me though, when it doesn't necessarily show itself in more equal contact comparators like football, rugby, etc. as stated by others. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Beans it really does make a diffrence if you've played the game. You then fully understand what its like out on the ice when you get hit dirty or you get in a fight or whatever it may be. I watch Volleyball on ocasion and I cant comment to much on the game because i have never really played it. Basketball if you asked me its a sissy sport but that has no merit really because ive never really played it.
FE may have played at a high level I have no idea, I would be surprised if he has considering his stance on this but he may have. Im just curious if hes been in the trenches when s*** hits the fan.
Ok, so help me out with this. I have never played hockey so I don't understand a dirty hit but you have never played basketball and it's a sissy sport???
Hello Mr. Pot, my name is Kettle........
Just to tell you a little story, I was played in Alberta Provincial basketball by in the mid-90's. The first game we played I was elbowed in the face and broke my nose. No foul, no nothing. Matt Cooke type of elbow. The guy did not go for the ball or anything. Clear elbow square in the face.
Secondly, in that same tournament, we played against a team that had a referee that was a relative of a player on the other team. A guys Dad was reffing the same game his son was playing in! We had a lead after the first half. However, the second half the refs took over and called close to 30 fouls against us and 4 against them. We had to finish the game with 4 players as too may players fouled out. Lost the game and our chance at a championship we had been working on together as a group for 3 years. All taken away by refs.
Bottom line, I don't believe you can logically and legitimately say that hockey is more competative or more frustrating than any other sport simple because it is hockey. I just highlighted 2 situations that I have personally been involved in that had nothing to do with hockey but I can comfortably say are about as frustrating or competative as anything you or anyone else has been a part of.
I didn't have to fight.
Beans, i'd have fought the ref. And maybe his son too. Lol, i'm kidding of course. I've played both baseball and soccer at high levels (including provincials) and have had similar things occur. To this day, i've never been in a fight on the field though i have seen a few.
It's obvious that there's going to be differences in opinion. Many seem to agree the planned tilts between two thugs is pretty useless to the game but the spur of the moment tussle is a little more acceptable. I think that if the league treated fighting like the other major sports, we'd still see the odd scrap only there be guy's getting tossed more often. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:10:26
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Dead on agree Alex. I am not saying that fighting should never, ever, happen. However, it has become so 'main stream' if you will that guys like TBar will fight if you look at them wrong. (Kidding Tbar, just trying to bring some levity to the situation).
If fighting was to be an automatic game misconduct then many of these side show fights go away. The only thing left would be the actual heat of the moment fighting. I still am not a fan of that but I could tolerated that a lot more than these foolish, premediated, take off your helmet kind of fights. |
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Guest8136
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Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:29:32
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| Agreed. Coming from the other side, I do think that hockey teams have a comraderie that is over and above your average sports room. I don't think this is solely a result of fighting and "sticking" up for one another, but it probably plays a bit of a role. The odd heat of the moment stuff would allow this to continue but the planned fights and having 2 or 3 fights a game in reply to a clean hit is unnecessary. I believe it was Bill Simmons on the espn website that wrote something similar about comraderie in hockey that he picked up in the hbo series with the caps/pens that he didn't feel existed in many other sports. Interesting read, sorry I don't have the link. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 10:45:02
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I was going to do up a resume of my hockey experience, and realized not only is not necessary, but at my age, it's so long ago I'd be lucky to remember any of it.
Suffice it to say Tbar, I played at levels high enough to garner interest from my local WHL team, to the point that I was invited to evaluation camps as a 15 and 16 year old. This is in 80 and 81, when Regina was a very competitive team and there were many, very good players.
I was considered enough of a prospect, that the GM Bob Strumm, spent the summer trying to get my parents to talk me in to coming back to camp as a 17 year old, a decision I had made not to do, because of, guess what? The fact that the neanderthal coach of the day, Bill Laforge, insisted I fight.
I was a 6' 230lb defenceman with a heavy shot, who loved playing physical, and could skate. he saw me as a potential goon. I lost interest in playing hockey at that level because of it.
I have been in hockey fights, didn't understand it then, don't really get it now. If a dirty hit was thrown by an opponent, I found it much more satisfying to pick my shot later, cleanly and smile down at the player, while he was gasping for air, from a well timed check with malice. That to me, sent a better message than stooping to throwing punches. That meant everytime he and I were on the ice, he had to worry about me, and not the puck. Much better result than me sitting in a penalty box for 5 minutes.
My 'junk' always stayed where it was supposed to, and as far players staying on my line, they were apparently more than okay with it, as every year, without a miss, I was either an assistant captain(usually my first year), and usually team captain in my second years, I think they felt I was more than willing, and able,to back them up.
Just because I don't see the need for it, never should be confused with my inability to play, understand, or be able, to do it.
Anyways, there isn't really a need to continue down this path, as we obviously both disagree, and I can agree to our disagreeing as we both apparently carry the lineage and experience to validate our points. |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:30:42
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FE - Fair enough I can honestly say their is no chance I would go to the WHL to be a fighter either. I dont see it being worth it in the end. I fight in the heat of the moment and only then. ps. im glad to hear you have had no "junk" issues.
Beans - If you go back and look at my post regarding Basketball i believe I said it had no merit, and as far as your post your probably the only guy I would drop my gloves with just because you looked at me wrong.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:49:47
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THAT'S IT!! I've had enough Tbar. It's go time Suzy.
Just wait a second, I have to remove my helmet.
Good discussion gents. Got a little off topic but quality none the less. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 12:21:44
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Lol FER I could not agree more.
Fighting is a Sisyphean activity that occurs most time between two gentleman who do not belong in the game. If a fight is to take place and i was forced to condone it, then it would have to be a result of complete frustration, (heat of the moment) between two players who are talented enough to warrant a regular shift. I.E Richards wanting to fight Subban because he got in his head. Even then I see know part of fighting in the game and believe it should warrant an automatic ejection. If you cannot keep your emotions under control and have reached the point that your focus is no longer winning or scoring; rather infliciting pain or gettin even then you can go have a shower and let your testosterone take a breather. Hockey is not boxing nor MMA, the objection of the game is to score more goals not garner more TKO's. Consistently, your elite level teams dress one maybe two players who have the ability to fight, however, also must contribute on the score sheet or in their own end or they simply do not play.
If fighting was so important to the game then why do the guys paid to fight play less minutes then i take to p*** over the course of the game with a couple of beverages? Why do those same guys watch most of the games from the press box over the course of the playoffs? I'll gladly watch the Tim Kerr's, Neely's, &
Iginla's of the world handle their problem's and then score 50 goals on you with a smile on their face, but the Boogaards, Orrs, Rosehills, Shelly have no place in the game at any level
You know how pointless fighting has become in hockey when superstars, grinders, stud dmen etc are apprehensive about completing bone crunching hits do to the melay/ stupidity that will ensue. What does the game of hockey lose if it eliminates fighting? Last time I checked the WJC is some of the best hockey we witness all year, with tones of bone crunching hits & how many fights...
Some may argue that eliminating fighting is a loss to the game. The only thing I can forsee is faster hockey, more goals, bigger hits & the elimination of 339pims game that do nothing but waste time & increase injuries.
Playing elite level hockey & basebalI I to have seen a plethora of stupidity over the years and have dished out & recieved my fair share of nasty hits. Consistently, the stupidity always begins with the guy on the team with the least talent, the guy ostentatious enough to just churp the entire game or the player especially, now in Men's hockey that plays like every game is oppurtunity to make it to the show. I have always had the mindset, let the meat head talk and later when I steal the puck in the neutral zone, gladly will i challenge you one on one and leave your jock in the rafters. Hell I was even nice enough to help the goalie and the jerk off locate their jocks & remind them of the score. You want to get even with a guy; embarass him by putting the puck in the back of the net or when he goes back to retrieve the puck let him know your coming and let him feel your weight. At 6'1 205 I always found a way to let a guy know how I was feeling without putting my fist through his skull. Fought once, broke my hand and missed 6 week. The satisfactory of leaving the guy in his blood never warranted the pain of a broken hand at any level. Especially, when some guys with a malicious & vindictive mindset simply do not know when enough is enough.
I see know point in bringing up the point about helmets on or off when fighting. If following a mysterious code & winning a fight is more important then potentially living your life as a vegetable, all the power to you swing for the fences.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 03/22/2011 13:09:04 |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 14:52:25
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I used to look at hockey much diffrently before my son started playing, at least until the hitting started..
You get a completely diffrent view on things when its your son out there in a dangerous situation, believe me.
So much of the play of NHL players is brought down into the minor levels of hockey. These kids live and breathe what they absorb on Saturday night...too bad its not all good. |
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Phaneuf – Horton Fight 
