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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2011 : 14:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I'm following the thread here and trying to follow some of the logic, and not being very successful.
If I'm following, then, if I take a cheap shot at Kessel, that doesn't get caught by the refs and isn't a clean hit on a player who should have his head up, since he is a star player and should expect some extra attention, then, I should expect Orr to come knocking on my door. Then the subsequent fight that is expected, which may or may not happen, is expected in which case, if I play my cards right, not only can I get away with the purported cheap shot, I can then entice Orr in to taking some extra penalty minute time, by either repaying the cheap shot, which the refs will most likely catch, due to reputation, or by at the very least ensuring he gets an instigator penalty.
So not only do I get the alleged cheap shot on the star player, but I get an opportunity to draw a power play for my team.
I think I've just found part of the problem to the Leafs problems!!!
I can hear it on the bench from Wilson now.....
"Go get 'im Orr, go get 'im Mike Brown, go get 'im Rosehill, go get 'im Komisarek.....errr, wait.....go get 'im Rosehill!!!"
How about this as a better scenario, a player takes a cheap shot at my star player and gets away with one, a few shifts later, same player has the puck, and feeling all good about the space he has created with his physical play, gets the puck on his stick, and again self-appreciating how he is the man, takes an extra second with the puck, looking up just in time to see nothing but the curve of a shoulder pad 2 inches from his face.
He the gets to spend the next 30 seconds, trying the get his eyeballs to stop rolling around in his skull, and trying to pump his own knees in to his chest, to try and re-inflate his lungs, as all the air has been forced out of them, as well as all the snot, out of his nose.
It's all good though because if he could get back up, he would throw down and force a fight out of that clean check, except the he's still having a spot of trouble trying to catch his breath.
Once he realizes that his innards are still in, and his parts are still all conjoined, he may stop and determine, that maybe a cheap shot isn't such a good idea, and he better keep his head up, and watch for that hitter instead.
Not a punch thrown, not a penalty incurred. same message sent.
Worked for me, numerous times.
FE you make good points as always, and yes you can get your payback with a hard well timed clean body check.
Here is another way you can do it, send out Orr against Cooke and tell him to beat the bloody pulp out of him and take the five kill the penalty and good to go. Mr. Cooke probably won't throw a hit the rest of the game and in any games to be played against you for the rest of the year. Basically as a team you just said you want to be a douchbag we will take care of you and deal with our consequences.
PS. I would never do this with my Bantam kids! you all probably think I like to goone it up, thats not the case. I think the tough guys should be allowed to enforce the rules and unfortunatly the NHL took that ability away with the insagator rule and didnt do their job at the time, and that would be handing out worthy suspensions.
You are joking right??? Cooke has been beaten up(remember the one punch from Evander Kane??), has been suspended, has been told by his coach and management.
He has not changed at all.
You may have your reasons for wanting fighting in hockey. But anyone who believes that fighting (at least at the NHL level) deters any kind of dirty plays in the game has been under a rock for the past decade and is completely delusional.
You might think that as a personal slight and I apologize and I am not directing that at anyone specifically. However, we all talk about the lack of respect in the NHL today and all the garbage hits and people trying to hurt other people. I also believe this is the highest level of fighting in the NHL since the 70's. You can not tell me that fighting deters anything because it simply doesn't.
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 15:03:06
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Sreet fighting is Illegal by Law! you go ahead and fight whoever you like I really dont care.
Hockey fighting is "Illegal" on the ice but can not get you taken to court (unless an extreme situation were to happen). You sit in the box for 5 or get ejected and its over.
I just find it hard to believe as a 24 year old as you stated earlier, you offered to throw a human being down the stairs, but at the same time you have no place for a little scrap on the ice. Guess which scenario will have the cops knocking on your door...
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 18:39:10
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Guys, this is getting a little heated and a little personal. Let's make sure we are keeping it on topic and to the relevance of hockey.
The point I see from all of this is that the threat of violence still have the effect require to 'police' things, as in the situations Mario discussed. Granted you may not agree with his approach, he chose the threat of violence over the action and had a positive outcome.
The difference in the NHL is that the threat of violence does not have the desired effect. It's is fighting for the sake of fighting. Even combat sports have a purpose behind their fights.
Fighting for the sake of fighting is very primative in nature and serves no purpose what so ever. |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 06:36:21
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Beans I got a question for you and all the other guys that post here and never played the game (no pun intended).
I assume you love Hockey just like me or you wouldn't bother reading and posting in this forum. So the question is, what made you fall in love with this game, and why didn't the fighting stop you from wanting to watch?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 06:49:15
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When I first started to watch hockey was a kid growing up in Edmonton in the 80's. How do you not watch hockey?? And there were fights but not every game. When a fight needed to happen, it happened. But they didn't happen for the sake of it. I feel in love with the game by watching the greatest player(s) in history. Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Anderson, Kurri, Fuhr. I love the skill of the game. The beautiful passing, the amazing stick handling. Nothing is more amazing to watch than a multiple one touch passing play that leads to a goal.
In short, I was never a fan of hockey because of the fighting. I am a fan in spite of it.
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 06:59:47
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And yet at the time fights did happen (not the fights we all have agreed to not care for) and it did not make you stop watching in fact you still fell in love with the game.
So the question should actually be if we both fell in love with the same game why do we want to change it?
Maybe I am just to stubborn to see the other side of the coin, but I just can’t imagine not being able to throw down the mits if I see fit, unless I would be willing to get a 5 or so game suspension (as suggested by FE and others). I think very strongly that without the ability to fight you would see stick work go up 200% within the first year and it would lead to kaos.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 07:45:17
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I think, I think, I think. Frankly, it means nothing. What anything 'thinks' might happen does not hold a candle to what it happening. That is, players are getting hurt.
Why is it so difficult to see that fighting (today) has zero impact on policing the game?? That was it's sole purpose in the past. Two guys fight and the disagreement is solved. That doesn't happen any more. Ever. Bottom line, there are more fighting majors today than any other time in the past 40 years of the NHL. There are also more people hurt and more concussions than any other time. More fighting does not mean less dirty play. Those days are gone and that is not an 'I think" comment. That is the straight of the information from today.
I personally do not want to take away the ability for people to fight completely. It seems like things are so literal in this argument. It's not like there is NEVER fighting in other sports. It's just not condoned and in some cases encouraged as it is in the NHL.
Seriously, I have yet to hear a single person have an argument why some of the most popular and best hockey (Olympics, WJC, and the NHL playoffs) have little to no fighting??? In the regular NHL season, there is an average of 1-1.5 fights/game. In the playoffs that number drops to 0.2-0.4 fighting/game. Same league, same players (except for the goons), and playoffs are far superior entertainment wise than the regular season.
I believe I have been very candid and responded to any of your questions Tbar. What is your answer to this. Is playoff hockey better and do you have an issue with the less fighting in the playoffs???
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 08:30:47
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I love the Playoffs, and the fact that less fighting occurs in the playoffs is fine by me. But at the end of the day the players can still drop them if they want, sit the 5 minutes, and resume playing.
One fella in this or another thread pointed out the WJC championship where they had a bench brawl...nobody seemed to comment on that why not? I know that is a 1 and done to this point, but thats the kind of blowups that I could see happen if players know they are going to miss significant time for fighting. You may get a players that start thinking this way, I can fight that guy for all the crap he’s pulling, take a 5 game suspension, or I can give him a good whack on the ankle’s and take maybe a 2 game suspension. I would say you probably have a better chance of a player breaking an ankle due to a good slash compared to a player getting hurt from a little tussle (and yes I know they can ex.Hall).
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 08:35:32
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If someone could come up with a viable way to determine a staged fight from a heat of the moment fight, and decided to suspend the players in the staged fight, I would be ok with that.
One thing maybe the NHL could look at if they are actually concerned would be:
First 3 fight's game ejection.
Fights 4-6 That game plus 1
Fights 7-10 That game plus 3 etc. etc. etc.
And reset this every year you may get rid of the "staged" fights and that would be ok. At the end of the day I dont want to see 5 fights a game, I just want to see a guy be able to defend himself or a teammate bye dropping the mits, if thats how the player feels he needs to do it. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 10:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
I love the Playoffs, and the fact that less fighting occurs in the playoffs is fine by me. But at the end of the day the players can still drop them if they want, sit the 5 minutes, and resume playing.
One fella in this or another thread pointed out the WJC championship where they had a bench brawl...nobody seemed to comment on that why not? I know that is a 1 and done to this point, but thats the kind of blowups that I could see happen if players know they are going to miss significant time for fighting. You may get a players that start thinking this way, I can fight that guy for all the crap he’s pulling, take a 5 game suspension, or I can give him a good whack on the ankle’s and take maybe a 2 game suspension. I would say you probably have a better chance of a player breaking an ankle due to a good slash compared to a player getting hurt from a little tussle (and yes I know they can ex.Hall).
You are dead wrong on the playoff fight being the equivalent of a regular season fight.
The whole reason why it doesn't happen as often, hardly at all, is twofold:
1) You miss the next game
2) The stakes are higher (the penalty, the game means more)
Now, no one will argue that giving an appropriate one game suspension during the regular season will have the same effect as a one game suspension during the playoffs, so to get a reasonably close effect, I would make it 3games.
There you have it: playoff hockey level occurrences of fighting, almost zero goons (except those with skill), the game gets quicker and better and more exciting. And less incidences of concussion.
Everyone's a winner! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 11:26:49
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Slozo could you show me the rule where it states a player who fights in the playoffs is automatically suspended for the next game? I dont believe that is correct, so I went to look it up and can find no such info in the NHL rule book.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=27011
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 13:57:00
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Well im off to go coach an elite Atom extended season team so hopefully none of those 10 year olds lip me off or I may have to threaten to throw them down the stairs!!!  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 15:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Well im off to go coach an elite Atom extended season team so hopefully none of those 10 year olds lip me off or I may have to threaten to throw them down the stairs!!!
I think they will have their violent tendancies covered if you are coaching them to ensure their junk remains visible by dancing with anyone who looks at their team mate the wrong way.
I kid. I kid |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 06:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Slozo could you show me the rule where it states a player who fights in the playoffs is automatically suspended for the next game? I dont believe that is correct, so I went to look it up and can find no such info in the NHL rule book.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=27011
Ha ha, I made this point earlier . . . it is unwritten in the rulebook, but regularly enforced in the playoffs. Surprised you didn't know that . . . remember the uproar a few years ago when Malkin didn't get the one game suspension for a "sort of" fight? Everyone thought he was getting star treatment, as he should have gotten a game.
NHL is funny about their rules, eh? Campbell will pontificate about how he can't give Cooke a suspension for the Savard hit because it's not in the rulebook, and yet, Avery waves his stick in front of a goalie and there is a new rule next day. And the playoffs continue to mean a game suspension for a fight, a much higher level of penalty than the regular season, even though that is nowhere to be found in the rulebook.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 10:53:05
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Anyway, i fail to see how anyone cannot acknowledge that having a bruiser on your bench isn`t a deterant from stopping the other teams players from picking holes in your star players.
Everyone here went to school right ? I`m sure your school ( as did mine ) had a huge ( oversized child ) bully who picked on everyone. Although some of us didn`t fear him as much as others....bet you didn`t go out of your way to confront him ( or his friends ) either....did you ?
If i`m a player, playing the leafs and got kessel in my sights for a monster hit ( where i can hurt him ) and C . Orr is on the bench...i may make a diffrent decision on the way i deliver that hit compared to if he is not present on that bench.....( anyone who has played any hockey knows ) this code has always been and will always be in place during hockey...
No-one like getting their lips swelled up or their nose broke, the potential of having this happen will change a players actions...most definitely. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:10:57
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Beans i think that the non-existence of fighting in the WJC and the Olympics doesn`t really make these games seem better.....its just simply the fact that you are watching the BEST PLAYERS in the world go head to head....what more can you ask for ?
As for the playoffs, well the games mean something, each game is huge. The intensity is much higher, players are giving all they got each shift, the overall atmosphere is completely diffrent. These issues are more of importance as to better hockey rather than the non - fighting factor. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:45:36
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HMMM how is it that I cannot acknowledge and be so nieve to believe that Colton Orr type players on the end of the bench are not difference makers and truly prevent players from acting out of line. O wait Colton Orr didn't do S**t to Chara when he drove Grabovski into the boards and he stood their like he was out on his feet. Boogaard & Prust on the Rangers really laid a beat down and scared Cooke so bad he didn't throw a flying elbow at a Rookie Dman right? Cam Jansen scared Thorton so much that he is still on dream street, o wait no its Perron who still cannot locate his brain and clearly Jansen did and the rest of these rugid enforcers have done SFA.
Goons fight Goons they do not possess the skill like the Tim Kerr's once did and therefore they have no impact or effect on any player on the other team beyond the other teams so call tough guy. People fear the Power Fwds of the league because they can bang you around, score and have a significant impact on the game. If someone is attempting to rough you up and only play three minutes a game. As a player I have no problem cutting my shift to 20 secs the four times they hit the ice if it means avoiding them and then play my regular shifts the rest of the game while they sit around doing nothing.
The Proberts, Clarks, Domi's, Kerr's, MacSorley's, Tiger William etc deterred you from doing stuff because you knew they would be on the ice the whole game and have many oppurtunities to set you straight. Now a days these guys do not exist and are simply a circus act that get fans excited and have little impact on the other players on the ice.
You are crazy if you think otherwises & the record number of concussions would indicate the insignificance and lack of detterance these 3 minute men truly have.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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Pushrod
Top Prospect
Canada
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans i think that the non-existence of fighting in the WJC and the Olympics doesn`t really make these games seem better.....its just simply the fact that you are watching the BEST PLAYERS in the world go head to head....what more can you ask for ?
As for the playoffs, well the games mean something, each game is huge. The intensity is much higher, players are giving all they got each shift, the overall atmosphere is completely diffrent. These issues are more of importance as to better hockey rather than the non - fighting factor.
Not only the best players in the world going head to head but a lack of oversized goons that have less speed than your average run of the mill mens league player. Have to consider that as well. I don't dispute your different atmosphere in the playoffs comment, I also think it would be that much better even if the fighters were removed from the regular season, but maybe not quite as discrepant.
I don't completely buy the impact of these guys on the bench either. I don't think a Mike Peca or Scott Stevens let the presence of any two bit goon on the bench affect whether or not they lined someone up with their head down. It also didn't influence my thought process on checking going through minor hockey, but as a smaller guy I think the bigger guys would have looked pretty stupid trying to engage a smaller player in a fight for laying a clean check on someone. As long as the check was not dirty I don't see what the issue is. I'm not completely sold on my opinion though, but I'm not sold on your side either Duke. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:06:29
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| the Canucks do not employ a good either. |
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Guest2216
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Posted - 03/26/2011 : 19:33:02
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I still believe an hockey team will play more aggressive Pushrod with an...weve got him on our side ( the goon ) attitude...
These type of players do indeed make some players more brave, in my opinion. Its like... if the going gets rough, we`ve got backup.
The Flyers scared the leafs S**t-less for several seasons, no doubt about it, they wouldn`t venture into the corner. With the arrival of players like Orr, Brown, Armstrong, Rosehill...a diffrent style of aggessive play has evolved. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 19:34:50
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| Sorry...guest 2216 was me, wasn`t logged on. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 19:47:48
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Yeah. I think we all figured that one out.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2012. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 20:07:35
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Anyhows, from a practical point of view, lets talk about supply and demand. These "goons" are employed for a reason. Does the GM think his team will be better if he employs this type of guy? Does the coach want this guy on the bench for 57 minutes out of the game? Does the owner think the GM and the coach know what they are doing? Of course they do. It's their job.
As far as the coach and GM, anyway, their jobs ride on winning games. Nothing else. Bread and butter. How well this works is a matter of ideology.
If the ideology doesn't produce, the team loses, the owner gets pissed, the GM and/or coach is held responsible and change occurs.
Besides the Leafs, whose management hasn't been held accountable for anything since........yeah. Leaf bashing. Can't help it. Sorry. I honestly feel bad.
Don't blame the fans, though. The owners don't give a damn if we have our little 'sideshows'.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2012. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 08:40:22
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Your school yard comparison is missing a key ingredient. Money. Take your same comparison and give a 10-12 yr old kid $100 each time they go to the jungle gym and punch the toughest kid in school in the face. That kid is going to take that $100-3 times a day and run like crazy. Sometimes he will get caught by the 16yr old on his 6the trip through grade 7 and take a beating and other times he will get away without a scratch. When that kid gets beat to the point where he can't get beat anymore, he will rest up and heal. Once healed up, he will continue collecting his $100 each punch the throws and will repeat that process over and over and over and over.
When the benefit outweighs the risk the deterent factor disappears.
The only way to fix that issue is to have the teachers involved in the school ground. When the kid punches the tough guy in the face and loses his ability to go recess for 2 weeks, he can't make money.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 18:43:55
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| As Charlie Chan would say to Maxwell Smart...very interesting |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 19:46:09
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Duke, i think you're crazy to believe that guys will think twice about throwing a hit because of some thug on the other teams bench!
Never seen any case of this either. If a guy is going to hit someone, he'll hit'em. How often does a goon go after that guy that threw the hit? More or less never, unless by chance, he's a goon as well! |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 06:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Slozo could you show me the rule where it states a player who fights in the playoffs is automatically suspended for the next game? I dont believe that is correct, so I went to look it up and can find no such info in the NHL rule book.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=27011
Ha ha, I made this point earlier . . . it is unwritten in the rulebook, but regularly enforced in the playoffs. Surprised you didn't know that . . . remember the uproar a few years ago when Malkin didn't get the one game suspension for a "sort of" fight? Everyone thought he was getting star treatment, as he should have gotten a game.
NHL is funny about their rules, eh? Campbell will pontificate about how he can't give Cooke a suspension for the Savard hit because it's not in the rulebook, and yet, Avery waves his stick in front of a goalie and there is a new rule next day. And the playoffs continue to mean a game suspension for a fight, a much higher level of penalty than the regular season, even though that is nowhere to be found in the rulebook.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Well when would this rule have come into place because if I remember corectly, Iginla and Vinny never got any extra games?
Im 100% positive this is not a rule Slozo, anyone else got any info on this so called rule?
Edit: Slozo from every playoff fight I can recall in the last ten years neither player has been suspended, are you sure your not thinking of a different leauge? |
Edited by - tbar on 03/28/2011 13:38:54 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:44:49
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| I'm not familiar with it, and whoever put that link up, it doesn't seem to take you to anything which confirms it? |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 08:27:24
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Alex to clarify, Tbar put that link up as he could not find the rule anywhere in the rule book and was requesting Slozo locate it or prove his claim about playoff suspensions for fighting.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 08:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Alex to clarify, Tbar put that link up as he could not find the rule anywhere in the rule book and was requesting Slozo locate it or prove his claim about playoff suspensions for fighting.
In youth we learn; in age we understand
Ah, thanks, now i get it. I was looking all over for the rule on that link thinking Slozo provided it! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 16:04:21
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Hey Alex maybe i am crazy, i get pissed drunk every Friday night...maybe this is my Friday night thought for the week.
All i know is wether its hockey, at a party, in a bar or any other situation in life....if a moron knows he is going to get a s**t kickin...that moron may not be so quick to do something stupid.
If that moron knows his actions have no consquences...then he surely will be inclined to be much more of a moron.  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 16:06:24
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| p.s....i`ve yet to see a player get suspended in the playoffs for a typical hockey fight...can`t remember one anyway. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 16:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Hey Alex maybe i am crazy, i get pissed drunk every Friday night...maybe this is my Friday night thought for the week.
All i know is wether its hockey, at a party, in a bar or any other situation in life....if a moron knows he is going to get a s**t kickin...that moron may not be so quick to do something stupid.
If that moron knows his actions have no consquences...then he surely will be inclined to be much more of a moron.
Okay, lemme explain what i mean. When was the last time you saw Colton Orr beat the crap out of a guy who hit one of his teammates? Unless it was a "fellow goon", it doesn't happen! Goons fight goons99% of the time. The other 1% would be when a guy like Chara may drop'em with a goon.
So, when Kessel gets flattened by a guy like Nik Kronwall, you're basically saying the Kronwall should run for his life because C. Orr is gonna come pummel him? I just don't see that happening and i certainly don't see Kronwall easing up on a hit because Orr's ass is parked on the TO bench. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 17:11:49
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That might have been the story in the 80's, but those days are gone. Back in the day, unless your name was Gretzky or Lemieux, you had to fight. Period. There was no backing down and no one would fight for you. There were goons like Semenko and Probert and Brown, and they would beat the crap out of anyone who took liberties with their star players.
But those days are gone. Far, far gone. As Alex and others have stated, today the goons fight the goons and that is it. If Cooke goes out and clocks Gaborik and it's not Cooke fighting Boogaard, it's Rupp of Engelland. Cooke doesn't learn because he doesn't have to back up every stupid play he does.
Proof?? Take a look at hockeyfights.com For example, Rupp and Engallend have 25 fights combined for the Penguins. Add in another 12 from Godard and Adams and you have 37 of their 69 fights. How many from Cooke?? 3. Just two more than Sidney Crosby.
How about your Leafs?? 47 fights and Orr, Brown, Komisarek, and Rosehill make up 33 of those fights.
No one fights their own fights so no on is afraid of it.
Finally, looking at Derek Engelland who has 13 fighting majors, here is the list of the guys he fought:
Colton Orr, Chris Neil, Kevin Klein, Jody Shelley, George Parros, Paul Bissonnette, Tim Jackman, David Clarkson, Colton Orr, Taylor Pyatt, Brandon Prust, Kevin Westgarth, and Chris Neil.
Looks like a lot of goons fighting goons to me. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 17:34:01
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OK Alex, fair enough...let me explain what i have been saying....
the last time Orr has kicked someones a** because of a cheap shot on a TO`s better players ??...it hasn`t happened because NO-ONE is taking cheap shots at them since Burke has brought in some toughness to the team.
Remember when J.Blake got that punch in the face with a bare knuckle...that nasty black and blue eye, had it for weeks, with his pu**y linemates looking on ??....i sure do
When Kaberle was treated like swiss meat, night in night out ?
Toronto had a gutless team for years...nobody picked up for each other, those days are gone. If any of you think your team will win a stanley cup with cowards...your in for a rude awakening.
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Guest4278
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Posted - 03/28/2011 : 19:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
[the last time Orr has kicked someones a** because of a cheap shot on a TO`s better players ??...it hasn`t happened because NO-ONE is taking cheap shots at them since Burke has brought in some toughness to the team.
I think Brian Burke was hoping to sell the pugnatious, meat headedness, toughness horse manure drop by drop. But you just bough the whole truck load. Something stinks in Toronto and at least one fan has bought it.
Might wanna give your argument a wash, because it stinks. If Burke tells you to jump, do you ask how high? |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 21:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
OK Alex, fair enough...let me explain what i have been saying....
the last time Orr has kicked someones a** because of a cheap shot on a TO`s better players ??...it hasn`t happened because NO-ONE is taking cheap shots at them since Burke has brought in some toughness to the team.
Remember when J.Blake got that punch in the face with a bare knuckle...that nasty black and blue eye, had it for weeks, with his pu**y linemates looking on ??....i sure do
When Kaberle was treated like swiss meat, night in night out ?
Toronto had a gutless team for years...nobody picked up for each other, those days are gone. If any of you think your team will win a stanley cup with cowards...your in for a rude awakening.
Geez, I didn't even know you could mistreat swiss meat...
Uhhh...in the Pacioretty/Chara thread there was a video posted up of Chara cheap shotting Grabovski.....twice.....in the same game.....yep, that Orr is sure a deterrent.
Like another poster pointed out, if Burke's truculence is candy, you've aquired a sweet tooth. It's a shame too, with the Leafs making such a nice run at the end of the season here, makes you wonder if they had kept a couple of offensive players in the lineup, and won a couple of those close games, just how things could be different.
As has been pointed out, numerous times, these designated hitters barely get any ice time as it is, and I would think even less in a close game.
You mentioned earlier that they don't take time away from the skill players, but I have to wonder if their lack of skill, takes away from overall offence when needed in those close games. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 05:16:54
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Fat Elvis - you took the words out of my mouth almost when someone mentioned how Orr was "keeping people in line".
You know, I am a huge fan of trucculent players with skill . . . guys like Lucic or just physical players like Getzlaf, Ovechkin, Eric and Jordan Staal . . . these are players of varying skill that are pretty complete players offensively because of their tough, physical play.
But there is ZERO EVIDENCE - and I do mean zero!!! - to suggest a player who plays a few minutes a game dictates any liberties that may or may not be taken on a skilled player.
Grabovski was a great example, from that game where he got nailed by Chara first on a hit that should have resulted in a suspension, and which crushed his head against the boards like a soft melon; then later in the game where he was hit quite hard again on a more legal play. Where was Orr? Did he even talk to Chara? Maybe it was a text message or email later, but frankly, I wouldn't think Orr has the mental capability to operate such complicated devices.
And I am talking about a goon (Orr) that I think can actually skate and keep up despite his poor skill level . . . never mind the goons that can't - and there are plenty of those guys in the league.
But yeah - imagine if instead of Orr and his replacement Rosehill, that we had brought up either Kadri, or this Boyce kid earlier in the season who has played so well down the stretch. Would that have made the difference of a few points here or there? I think it might have, especially considering the line match-ups.
But sure, let's hear solid examples of how these thugs keep other players in line from taking liberties. Would love to hear some.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 06:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Fat Elvis - you took the words out of my mouth almost when someone mentioned how Orr was "keeping people in line".
You know, I am a huge fan of trucculent players with skill . . . guys like Lucic or just physical players like Getzlaf, Ovechkin, Eric and Jordan Staal . . . these are players of varying skill that are pretty complete players offensively because of their tough, physical play.
But there is ZERO EVIDENCE - and I do mean zero!!! - to suggest a player who plays a few minutes a game dictates any liberties that may or may not be taken on a skilled player.
Grabovski was a great example, from that game where he got nailed by Chara first on a hit that should have resulted in a suspension, and which crushed his head against the boards like a soft melon; then later in the game where he was hit quite hard again on a more legal play. Where was Orr? Did he even talk to Chara? Maybe it was a text message or email later, but frankly, I wouldn't think Orr has the mental capability to operate such complicated devices.
And I am talking about a goon (Orr) that I think can actually skate and keep up despite his poor skill level . . . never mind the goons that can't - and there are plenty of those guys in the league.
But yeah - imagine if instead of Orr and his replacement Rosehill, that we had brought up either Kadri, or this Boyce kid earlier in the season who has played so well down the stretch. Would that have made the difference of a few points here or there? I think it might have, especially considering the line match-ups.
But sure, let's hear solid examples of how these thugs keep other players in line from taking liberties. Would love to hear some.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
And I would like to see you back up your claim about the "playoff fighting suspensions" because you cant.....?? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 08:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Grabovski was a great example, from that game where he got nailed by Chara first on a hit that should have resulted in a suspension, and which crushed his head against the boards like a soft melon; then later in the game where he was hit quite hard again on a more legal play. Where was Orr? Did he even talk to Chara? Maybe it was a text message or email later, but frankly, I wouldn't think Orr has the mental capability to operate such complicated devices.
Nah, i'm pretty sure he'd just email / text from the bench. I mean, he sits there for long enough, he'd have the time. |
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Fans Love Fighting 
