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JERJ2008
Top Prospect
Canada
25 Posts |
 Posted - 03/31/2011 : 17:08:47
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Poll Question:
As the season winds down, the awards talk picks up. Top goalies, who do you think? Tim Thomas with incredible GAA and save percentage, Roberto Luongo leading the league in wins and not a bad GAA or save percentage, Henrik Lundqvist with 11 shut-outs and stellar numbers to go with... Would Montreal be in playoff contentions without Cary Price? Ilya Bryzgalov, where would the Coyotes be down the stretch without him?
Listed alphabetically by last name.
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MrBoogedy
Rookie
Canada
195 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 21:25:39
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| Of course I had to vote Carey Price. My fan based bias helps, but considering the fact that Montreal has had a depleted blueline for most of the year with Markov and Gorges out for considerable lengths of time and several other short term vacancies. Also considering the fact that the rest of the team give him such little goal support... their goals for are in the basement and yet the team is still in a playoff postion, albeit barely. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 06:10:00
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Yeah, I voted Price as well, for many of the reasons mentioned.
It's real close between Lundqvist and Price, but the Rangers have a much better D, IMHO. I think both teams with more ordinary goalies are certainly out of the playoffs and possibly in the basement . . . but I give the edge to Price.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4533
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Posted - 04/01/2011 : 06:40:37
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| Lol Lundqvist and Price? It's hands down, no questions asked, going to be TIm Thomas, he's even a top pick for the Hart. Just look at all other previous goalie statistics that've won the Hart. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 08:55:19
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I'm looking at the main stats for goaltenders:
- wins
- sv%
- GAA
- SO
And in those categories, only 2 goalies are in the top 5 of at least 3 of them.
- Thomas: first in SV%, second in GAA, second in SO
- Luongo: first in wins, third in GAA, third in SV%
I suspect that both those goalies will be amongst the finalists, plus one of Price/Lundqvist/Bryzgalov.
Thomas will win this year |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 09:19:53
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Nuxfan....i agree that Luongo is in the conversation and he'd prob be in my top 3. However, i'm predicting the nominee's and voting to go as follows:
1. Thomas (will miss on the Hart, be rewarded with Vezina)
2. Price
3. Lundqvist
Could flip flop 2 and 3 as the SO number that Lundqvist has put up is pretty impressive!
I personally think Luongo is going to get missed as a result of a few things. The fact he's playing on such a strong team, the fact Schneider has done so well (better numbers but fewer games), not enough exposure to the east as well as playing for the team with the most offensive support (most GF).
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 09:50:58
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at this point, I'd be surprised if Luongo was not one of the 3 finalists - but hey I've been surprised before. You're certainly right about the eastern bias, and this year has seen more than 3 marvelous goalie seasons, so I guess I would not be overly disappointed if Luongo was overlooked.
I don't put too much into the "benefit from GF" argument - GF support doesn't help your GAA or SV%, both of which are 3rd in the league right now. Looking back through the game logs, Luongo has only benefitted from a few blowout scores, and is often a key reason that the team is winning 2-1 or 3-1. I'm also not sure how Schneider's season factors into it? Thats just a team being blessed with 2 good goaltenders.
As for playing on a good team - again, does Luongo benefit from playing on a good team or is he one of the reasons that the team is in fact good? This is fast becoming my pet peeve of the season - one can't disregard individual performances on a great team by simply saying "the team is great, of course he did well". Great individual performances are an integral part of a great team effort, and Luongo has quietly put together an extremely good season that should be recognized.
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 10:55:01
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I agree Nuxfan and Schneider did benefit from some blowouts this year. I think that Thomas will win and he deserves it too. I would love to see Price get it after all the trauma at the begining of the year and seeing him step up @ carey  ) his team on his back!!
Loungo is a stud and I saw him steal a few games this year he would be a good pick too. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 12:08:59
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I agree with most of what you said Nuxfan. That's why i said he's be in "my" top 3, but the rest i was just predicting what i think will happen.
To your points, Schneider "could" make it look like Luongo's season isn't so special due to the simple fact that he's put up equally as good numbers (arguably better) than Lou. It's maybe not fair to say, but it makes it look like if a rookie can do what he's done, so could anyone (as in, the team D must be phenomenal).
As for your pet peeve, i can see why that would bother someone but the bottome line is this, the Canucks have one of, if not the, best overall defensive teams in the league. YES, Luongo is a part of that, but the D, even with their injuries, and the forwards are very responsible defensively.
Again, i think he's in the mix myself, i just don't know if he's gonna get a nomination. Who knows, he might win it for all i know and i wouldn't argue that he's not deserving. I just don't think the voters will see it like some of us do.
Oh, and one last thing that could hurt his chances, and this is not fair by any means, would be "if" Sedin wins the Hart, Kesler the Selke (mixed in with the President's trophy and an Art Ross (more than likely), that the voters might just say, screw it, Vancouver's got enough awards...... |
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 13:06:34
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| joey nmacdonald, due to the show he put on the other night vs. ST. louis |
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Guest5302
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Posted - 04/01/2011 : 13:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4533
Lol Lundqvist and Price? It's hands down, no questions asked, going to be TIm Thomas, he's even a top pick for the Hart. Just look at all other previous goalie statistics that've won the Hart.
Thomas isn't even the MVP of his team substitue Rask in there and the Bruins don't go down in the standings... no way for timmy love the guy great goalie but he has not been better than Price or king henrik this year |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 13:31:34
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The Canucks do have a great defense, and certainly Luongo benefits from that. But honestly, so do Boston. NYR might have the most overall defensive team in the NHL. Yet Thomas and Lundqvist are continuously touted as Vezina candidates. Good goaltending is integral to a good defense, and usually great goaltending is present on teams that have very strong defenses.
All that being said, I think it's Thomas's to lose this year, he has had a spectacular season by any measure.
And I must comment on Schneider. The fact that Schneids has been as good as he has been really shows how good he is as a goalie, moreso than how good Vancouver is as a team. In 20 games this year he's faced 30 shots or more 9 times, and more than 40 shots 3 times - that stat doesn't hint at a bedazzling defense in front of him. You've probably seen the same games as I have this year, he's usually one of the best players on the ice when he plays. If they gave out a Vezina for backup goalies, he'd win it by a landslide this year. I don't think his performance should detract from Luongo's season at all.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 13:36:02
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Again, i personally don't think so either. However, it's unfortunate for Luongo, that you and i don't have votes 
The problem with Schneider is, many voters have prob seen him once or twice, if at all, and even if he stood on his head those games, they could write it off as flukey. Bottom line, the voters will have no idea that Schneider is that good and could come up with the conclussion that you or i could post good numbers in the Vancouver goal considering the team around us. Little do they know, i'm not too swift on skates!
Again, this is not my opinion on Luongo, it's my opinion / guess as to what's going to happen! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 15:16:24
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Hey guys, when was the last time a goalie from a President's Trophy winning team even got nominated let alone won the Vezina??? Of course Luongo gets the benefit of playing with the best team in the NHL both offensively and defensively. I don't think he even gets nominated.
I am 100% in agreement with Slozo on this one. It's Lunqvist or Price. Look at what they produce and look at the shots they face every night!!
Most importantly, look at the teams they have in front of them compared to the teams in front of Luongo or Thomas. Huge advantage, no??
I would nominate Price, Lundqvist, and Bryzgalov. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 16:19:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey guys, when was the last time a goalie from a President's Trophy winning team even got nominated let alone won the Vezina??? Of course Luongo gets the benefit of playing with the best team in the NHL both offensively and defensively. I don't think he even gets nominated.
It was 21 years ago Beans...Ed Belfour/Chicago in 1990/91. Well he was the last goaltender to win the Vezina playing for a Presidents Trophy winning team, i'm sure there's been others who were nominated.
While i agree that without Lundqvist & Price, to borrow a line from Mr. Pierre McGuire, the Rangers/Habs would be in a world of hurt and would find themselves on the wrong side of the 8 spot. Personally i would give the Vezina to Lundqvist (surprisiing, huh!)...but i'd be quite surprised if Tim Thomas didn't win. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 17:53:32
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Well Beans, without doing a ton of research, i can't answer your question. However, i do know that Tim Thomas won the Vezina 2 years ago while playing for a Bruins team that had the 2nd most goals for and the least goals against, all while finishing runnerup for the President's trophy by, get this, 1 point. So, while it doesn't fit your question perfectly, i'd say it makes the point that you can win this trophy on an extremely strong all around team.
Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't be picking Luongo as i stated earlier. He'd make my nominee's list probably, but he's not my #1 choice.
Something that has to be considered/remembered. This award is voted on by GM's and the key is, it's supposed to be awarded to : (quote from Wiki) the National Hockey League's goaltender who is "adjudged to be the best at this position"
I think a lot of times, people tend to compare guys as though it's the Hart. You get guys saying, "take Bryzgalov away and how bad would Phoenix be"? Things like that. While it's similar, it's still not comparing the same thing. Sure, take Bryz away, the Coyotes don't make the playoffs, take Luongo away, the Canucks prob still do. BUT, that doesn't mean he hasn't been better than Bryz as "a goalie". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 18:45:20
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Ok, so Belfour 20 years ago wins as the keeper for the President's Trophy winner and Thomas wins as almost the President't Trophy winner than that disproves my point?? No, in fact it proves my point. 1 out of 20 or almost 2 out of 20 tell me the vast majority of the time the best team in the NHL does not produce the best goalie. Not saying it's right, just saying it is what it is.
And sorry Alex, but is simply disagree that a great goalie on a bad team that makes them better is the same as a great goalie on a great team that doesn't clearly make them better. The Canucks have not been any worse when Luongo has been out than when he has played. Phoenix, Montreal, and NYR are clearly and noticable worse without their starter keepers. To me, that speaks volumes.
Look at the past. Luongo has had as good or better season in FLA than he has had this year???
Typical Luongo season but he is not the best this season. Not even top 3. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 21:38:24
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look the way i look at it the rangers and the habs are close to lottery teams without their goalies.... Rask gets boston into the playoffs forsure and even in third., Tim Thomas is an amazing story and an amazing goalie but not even top 5 in the league this year ,, wow he has amazing stats i really don't believe for a second Rask wouldn't have the same stats or damn close this year if he were the starter... Price Lundquvist and Bryzkalov are way better this year they have carried their teams,,,, Hiller had he not been hurt aswell......... i'd even give it to Miller before Thomas easy no question.... so in my mind Thomas is 4th in the league at best if i'm picking the best this year
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 22:17:51
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What about Rinne? 2nd in GAA 2.10, 2nd in SV%.929?
ESPN NHL.com's and HNIC Hot Stove's Pierre Lebrun has this to say: quote:
Thomas is a lock, Rinne deserves to be runner-up and I have Lundqvist and Price in a dead heat at No. 3. I don't think any of these three goalies' teams make the playoffs without them this season.
Article:http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/6300/vezina-trophy-race-the-contenders-our-winner |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 22:50:21
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quote:
Ok, so Belfour 20 years ago wins as the keeper for the President's Trophy winner and Thomas wins as almost the President't Trophy winner than that disproves my point?? No, in fact it proves my point. 1 out of 20 or almost 2 out of 20 tell me the vast majority of the time the best team in the NHL does not produce the best goalie. Not saying it's right, just saying it is what it is.
That being said, rarely do the middle of the pack teams produce the best goalie.
Your candidates: Bryzgalov, Lundqvist, and Price. Currently playing for 8th, 18th, and 14th place teams overall.
It is an equally rare occurence for a team that didn't finish top-10 in the league to produce a Vezina Trophy winner.:
2010 - Miller, BUF 10th overall
2009 - Thomas, BOS, 2nd
2008 - Brodeur, NJ 7th
2007 - Brodeur, NJ 4th
2006 - Kipper, CGY 8th
2004 - Brodeur, NJ tied for 8th
2003 - Brodeur, NJ 4th
2002 - Theodore, MTL 18th (your one example)
2001 - Hasek, BUF 8th
2000 - Kolzig, WSH tied 5th
1999 - Hasek, BUF tied 8th
1998 - Hasek, BUF 10th
1997 - Hasek, BUF 6th
1996 - Carey, WSH 10th
1995 - Hasek, BUF 10th (abbreviated season)
1994 - Hasek, BUF 10th
1993 - Belfour, CHI 3rd
1992 - Roy, MTL 5th
1991 - Belfour, 1st
In those last 20 years, only once has a goalie won the Vezina when his team did not finish top-10. So, by that standard, Price and Lundqvist have an equally bad chance of winning the trophy this year.
quote:
Tim Thomas is an amazing story and an amazing goalie but not even top 5 in the league this year
Pasty, seriously - Thomas not in the top 5 this year? Price and Lundy way better? Hiller???
Tim Thomas will win this trophy - the Bruins have been great this year, and he has been a difference maker with this team - Rask has been pretty mediocre this year (losing record, 2.69 GAA and .918 SV). He has faced only about 100 less shots than Lundqvist and 300 less than Price, but has also played in 10 and 20 fewer games respectively. BOS has not scored a mammoth number of goals in support (BOS is 6th in GF and not by much), but they are second only to VAN in GA. His GAA and SV% numbers are otherworldly, he has 33 wins (so far) and 9 SO to go with them.
And, to please Beans, BOS is comfortably in the top-10 this year but not first overall
I would be happy to place a bet with anyone that Thomas wins the Vezina this year. |
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Guest4607
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Posted - 04/01/2011 : 23:08:24
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| With 11 So already this yr with a Terrible team in from of him..Lundqvist has to be the favorite going in...TT is up there and : Bryzgalov has to b really close.... |
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Guest6639
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Posted - 04/02/2011 : 01:57:22
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| TIM THOMAS, HANDS DOWN. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 02:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6639
TIM THOMAS, HANDS DOWN.
Ummmmm ya, it was me  |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:53:16
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i may have been very drunk when i posted that but yeah i deffinetly would take Lundquvist or Price over Thomas this year and Hiller has been better aswell had he not been hurt,, Even Miller is more valuable to his team than Thomas,,, again im not trying to take anything away from an amazing year but you do realize only 3 teams in the east have scored less goals than the Canadians this year,, and no team in the playoffs other than the habs have scored less goals for than the rangers. With Rask the Bruins still win the North East ,, do you honestly think the habs would be a top the North east with 91 pts if the Bruins didn't have Thomas this year? Thomas is playing great this year but so has a very very solid team,,, this is a team that was pegged to be one of the top 4 teams in the league with Rask as the starter by most experts before the season started...
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 18:32:36
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quote:
Even Miller is more valuable to his team than Thomas
whoawhoawhoa... who cares who is "more valuable to their team"? This is not the Hart Trophy thread, this is the Vezina trophy thread. It is given to the "goalie who is adjudged to be the best in their position" in any given year, simple. In the light of pure goaltending records, it is incredibly tough to argue with a 33-10-9 record, .939 SV%, 1.98 GAA, and 9 SO over an entire season
If you go back and look at winners since the lockout, you'll see that their teams were all over the map in terms of final placement and goal support. The one thing they had in common though were extraordinary regular season statistics, over and above the rest of their competition.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 05:10:50
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Some interesting stats brought up in regards to past winners of the Vezina . . . and frankly, I don't put too much stock into where the team finished, as much as how good the defence is rated, and how many shots they allow.
That Chicago team was run and gun lights out offense if I remember correctly, and Belfour got a tonne of shots for a great team. And most importantly, among the top goalies that year for wins, he was head and shoulders above them all for GAA average, as most were above 3.00 and he had a stellar 2.47 - very, very impressive in those years. He also played an amazing 74 games, led all goalies in the win collumn by a cavernous margin . . . he had 43 wins, next best was 31. He led all starters in GAA with .910 as well.
In short, it was probably one of the easiest Vezina trophies to give away, with absolutely dominant stats among goalies.
To try and compare that with a president's trophy team goalie in Luongo would be . . . well, it's just wrong. Luongo's stats are not even close to being head and shoulders above the pack - in fact, the reason we are having this debate is exactly because they are not.
Luongo's only lead in any statistical category is in wins - one ahead of Howard, Kipper and Price. Yeah, he played a lot less games, but that is what it is.
In terms of top team goalies with great stats, Thomas beats Luongo, hands down.
I still vote for Lundqvist or Price . . . probably Lundqvist at this point, as his 11 shutouts is absolutely amazing, his GAA is top ten among starters, and save percentage as well, and somehow he has 34 wins on a Rangers team that is middling at best.
It'll be a tough vote though. Bryzgalov is there, Thomas is there, Price is there, and Luongo is sure to get a few votes as well. Rinne is there too, but in terms of name recognition, he probably won't make the cut.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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JonPolley
Top Prospect
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 07:12:09
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| as any Habs fan is biased on this cuz 1. I don't want to vote any Bruin for any award at all..and 2. he's our goalie, but seriously Carey Price has had more of an impact on his team then Thomas has had for the Bruins. Carey Price has had a lot more to deal with then Thomas, and he's played a ton of games doing it and still will either finished in the top 3 in wins if not finish first in that category.. Price for the Vezina IMHO. |
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Guest4866
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Posted - 04/04/2011 : 08:38:02
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People keep bringing up how a certain goalie has been more valuable to his team... This is NOT an MVP award (or MVG if you prefer)!! It is an award for the best goalie... And as that there is no way Timmy T doesn't take this one. I haven't seen too many arguments made for Thomas other than a few one-liners of "Thomas will win."
I think the 3 nominees will be Thomas, Price and Lundqvist so I will simply focus on them.
First Thomas sports the leagues best GAA (1.98) and SV% (0.939). His SV% is not only the best this year, but the best over an entire season since the stat has been kept (I believe the current record stands at 0.937 by Hasek during the 98-99 season).
A lot of arguments for Price and Lundqvist have been that they play on worse teams... All three teams play a defense first type of hockey which no doubt helps their goalies but to say Boston's D is that much better than MTL or NYR... I don't really buy it. I'd say their D-units are pretty comparable. Yes, Boston has Chara and he's a beast. However, besides him, I'd say MTL and NYR have better or equal D-men. This is somewhat subjective but the point I'm trying to make is that none of the three teams leave their goalies out to dry night-in night-out.
Next, let's look at shots on goal, one indicator of team defense. Thomas has faced more shots per minute (SPM) than both Price and Lundqvist. Thomas has seen 0.541 SPM while Price has seen 0.508 SPM and Lundqvist has faced 0.492 SPM.
A lot of posts have mentioned wins and yes Price has 36 wins compared to Lundqvist's 34 and Thomas's 33. Wins are much more subjective to the team playing in front of the goalie and aren't really a good indicator of a goalie's ability unless there is a significant difference. So seeing as Thomas's 33 wins have come in 16 and 12 less games than Price and Lundqvist respectively, I'd say it's pretty much a wash since BOS is also the best team.
Finally, how can people argue that Thomas hasn't contributed to the Bruins and they would be in a similar position with Rask in the net? Rask's record (playing behind the same team...) is 11-13-2 with a 2.66 GAA and .918 SV%. Compare these numbers to the other back-ups' numbers; Alex Auld (6-2-1, 2.62 GAA, .915SV%) and Martin Biron (8-6-0, 2.13GAA, .923SV%). This only makes a stronger case for Thomas as I'd argue Rask is better than both those other goalies yet his numbers are worse. Although it's obvious the sample size is quite small.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 10:26:04
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You make some fair points, Guest 4866 - specifically Thomas' stellar save percentage, which certainly should be considered.
That being said, in order to JUDGE how good a goalie actually is relative to other goalies, one must examine and judge how good the players around them help or hinder them - the team, and specifically, its defensive corps and system.
And to be clear, neither the Canadiens nor the Rangers play the kind of stifling defensive system that a New Jersey traditionally plays . . . Montreal is a counterattack team that relies on a quick breakouts, and the Rangers have a similar system, based more on the forecheck than speed (off the top of my head). Neither team is what I would term as purely defensive.
Also, the shots on net stat can be misleading, frankly - Boston's style is to keep a team on the perimeter, and they let you shoot away from the blue line. Their defence is very good at giving Thomas a clear look most of the time too.
And that is nothing to take away from Thomas - he has had a great year, and is a very solid goalie. He does steal games, sure.
But the team's defence does matter - and Boston's is certainly much better - at least, better rated - than both the Rangers or certainly Montreal's.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 11:57:01
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quote:
But the team's defence does matter - and Boston's is certainly much better - at least, better rated - than both the Rangers or certainly Montreal's.
And what stats are you using to make this assertion? Other than pre-season ratings and BOS having a big name like Chara, I don't see a great deal of difference between the 3 teams defensively:
- They all play defense first style games, however BOS allows more shots per game (32) than NYR (10th lowest in NHL at 29) or MTL (18th best at 30), yet still has less GA.
- PK is roughly the same between all of them, so they're all equally defensively minded that way
- all 3 are top-10 in GA/game, although BOS is higher.
- NYR and MTL both block substantially more shots than BOS (4th and 6th in the league respectively, vs BOS at 16th)
- Giveaways - MTL is above both BOS and NYR in most giveaways allowed, 702 for MTL vs 521 for BOS and 426 for NYR.
This would indicate that all of them are fairly defensively capable teams, and fairly evenly balanced. In fact, I would venture that NYR is probably the best team defensively overall of the 3 - the few times I've seen them play they're positively stifling.
I agree with you that Thomas, Price, Lundy are viable finalists for the trophy. I just don't see how Thomas benefits from any better of a defense than the other two.
All things being mostly equal, Thomas's stats will speak for themselves. Personally, I don't think there has been such a clear cut winner of the Vezina since 2007 when Brodeur won after breaking the single season win record.
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Guest4607
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Posted - 04/04/2011 : 21:06:46
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| Hands down to me would have to be the Coyotes Goalie Bryzgalov.. He is the only reason the Yotes r in the playoff's and r going to be a Good story this yrr.. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 05:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
But the team's defence does matter - and Boston's is certainly much better - at least, better rated - than both the Rangers or certainly Montreal's.
And what stats are you using to make this assertion? Other than pre-season ratings and BOS having a big name like Chara, I don't see a great deal of difference between the 3 teams defensively:
- They all play defense first style games, however BOS allows more shots per game (32) than NYR (10th lowest in NHL at 29) or MTL (18th best at 30), yet still has less GA.
- PK is roughly the same between all of them, so they're all equally defensively minded that way
- all 3 are top-10 in GA/game, although BOS is higher.
- NYR and MTL both block substantially more shots than BOS (4th and 6th in the league respectively, vs BOS at 16th)
- Giveaways - MTL is above both BOS and NYR in most giveaways allowed, 702 for MTL vs 521 for BOS and 426 for NYR.
This would indicate that all of them are fairly defensively capable teams, and fairly evenly balanced. In fact, I would venture that NYR is probably the best team defensively overall of the 3 - the few times I've seen them play they're positively stifling.
I agree with you that Thomas, Price, Lundy are viable finalists for the trophy. I just don't see how Thomas benefits from any better of a defense than the other two.
All things being mostly equal, Thomas's stats will speak for themselves. Personally, I don't think there has been such a clear cut winner of the Vezina since 2007 when Brodeur won after breaking the single season win record.
You make a compelling argument, nuxfan. Maybe I am going more on the last few years (Bruins and Rangers) rather than this year . . . and you are right, when looking more closely at it, the Rangers do have a better overall defence on this year's stats.
I still take Lundqvist or Price over Thomas though. Not from the stats, but just from watching them play in the third period in a pressure game that matters with a one goal lead . . . or three.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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JonPolley
Top Prospect
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 06:11:44
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| alright fine, besides the fact that Price is more valuable to the Habs then Timmy is to the Bruins, and the fact that thats not a consideration.. Carey should still be considered. To me its just as ignorant to say Tim has it locked down because his stats are save percentage and goals against. That doesn't lock down the Vezina either... Carey has played a ton of games, is up there in wins and shutouts. Not only that but the the Vezina Trophy is an annual award given to the goalkeeper adjudged to be the best at this position as voted by the general managers of all NHL clubs. So to say that being important to his team is not criteria for it is bull. Whatever criteria the GM's will use to judge the best goaltender in the league I imagine would be up to themselves. |
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Guest2158
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Posted - 04/05/2011 : 08:37:27
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And people say there is no East Coast bias.
Where is the love for Rinne??? One post??
Individually, he's ranked 2nd overall in GAA and SVP. Tied for 5th in shutouts,
His team is 6th in the west (harder conference) with more points (95) than MTL (91) NYR (91). Boston has a slight edge with (99).
The team in front of him has scored only 209 goals. MTL has 208, but NYR has 228 and Boston leads this pack with 238.
However, with Rinne in net, Nashville's only allowed 188 goals, the fewest of any of these teams! (MTL - 204, NYR - 193, BOS - 189).
For crying out loud, Martin Erat is Nashville's leading scorer with 49 pts.
Quit splitting hairs, all four of these teams play a defensive style. But one of them does a better job than any of the others, and that's because this season, they've had the best goalie behind them.
Give Rinne some respect. He's earned it. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 12:21:55
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Truth is, there are a lot of strong goaltending performances this year to choose from. Price, Lundy, Thomas have been talked to death already. Luongo should be considered. Rinne and Bryzgalov are western versions of Price and Lundy in that they're clearly the MVP's of their respective teams as well as very strong goalies with very comparable stats to each other - I don't see a lot of difference between the 4 of them honestly. Even Kipper would be a a little consideration given the way he's played since the new year to get Calgary back into contention.
Still, Thomas's to lose IMO. |
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Guest6016
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Posted - 04/05/2011 : 20:53:09
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| In my honest opinion, a superstar defenseman matters a lot on the success of a team. We can clearly see how a healthy Lidstrom, Chara or Pronger can contribute. So, I believe Boston's D is way better than Mtl or NY's D. Personnally, I think Carey Price will win the Vezina considering Mtl's defensemen all season were a learning rookie Subban, some slow oldies like Gill, Spacek and Hamrlik, an offensive oriented Wiesniewki, and some minor leaguers like Alexandre Picard and Yannick weber. I understand the difference between MVP and best goalie, but If some goalies played almost equally good, than the voters would consider other factors. Just my 2 cents. |
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freddyboy
Rookie
Canada
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 21:16:35
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i think price's stats are wrong tonight, as of right now on NHL.com, i took a screenshot also, he has a 1.024 save%...pretty impressive haha, they mixed up saves and shot against, 43/42 instead of 42/43...i think that Price needs to win it since he's the first goalie to have a over 1.00 save % haha
a bit more seriously, it's a tough one between Lundqvist, Thomas and Price, i wish Price wins it, but the three deserves it
joe is a god, if u dont agree....i dont care |
Edited by - freddyboy on 04/05/2011 21:34:03 |
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freddyboy
Rookie
Canada
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 21:19:34
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just wish i could post the printscreen on here for you to see
joe is a god, if u dont agree....i dont care |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 21:30:02
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i'd take Rinne over Thomas aswell,,, so i'd Lundquist Rinne Price then Thomas,, stats smatss the three goalies i put ahead of Thomas carried their teams to the post season,,, Thomas was great no doubt but his team is a number 3 seed with or without him.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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This Year's Vezina 
