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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2011 : 15:32:20
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To take it from the playoff prediction thread, how would you rate Pittsburgh's defence - best in the league? Top five? Top ten? Better than average? Crappy and playing way over their heads?
Please let us know, and dazzle us with your reasoned, well thought out arguments to back up your point please.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 16:20:04
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The Pens are the best defensive team overall followed very closely by the Canucks. The D even though solid, I would consider Top 5.
Canucks fans I am sure you will argue about best overall team Defense do to your stats this yr. Consider though the Pens where first in GA & PK prior to their lineup becoming completely depleted and that was without Staal. Yes you lost D, so to did the Pens, but you never lost a Sedin or Kesler and even Malholtra was lost late.
If you would like to eliminate the debate, look at recent playoff success,which is won by Defense 
I know this thread is directed towards Bean's and I love that he's on board with the Pens, but our unit although Solid is not numero uno. I will however, say Brooks Orpik is a Top 3 playoff performer every yr.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 04/14/2011 16:21:37 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 16:44:39
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The Canuckleheads are crackin' me up!
Beans!, how dare you slight their, 'on paper', 'if only they were healthy', 'never played together more than 1 game together', defensive core!
Oh yeah, with facts and statistics. 
IF the game were played on considerations and probabilities, perhaps the Canuckleheads would have a valid point, but then we'd have to accept all of Duke's opinions as well!!!
Part of any player or team's greatness, is directly attributable to their durability, ie; Eric Lindros, my Oilers every year, and in this case, the Vancouver defence.
Statistically, Beans made his point and I agree 100%, they did more with less offensive support and their durability is part of the equation.
IMHO. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 04/14/2011 : 17:00:14
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Heres a Stat for you:
Pittsburgh + - for their d:
Gologoski + 20
Letang + 15
Orpik +12
Lovejoy +11
Martin +9
Michalek 0
Potter 0
Strait - 1
Niskanen -2
Hutchinson -3
Engelland -3 Total = +56
Vancouvers D:
Bieksa +32
Hamhuis +29
Ehrhoff +19
Edler +13
Ballard +10
Sweatt +4
Rome +1
Oberg 0
Tanev 0
Alberts 0
Sauve -2
Salo -3
Parent -3 Total = +100
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 17:55:34
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Ok, first off, plus/minus is a garbage comparison when you are looking at one team without a single 70 point players and the other team has 4-70+ point players. Vancouvers top defensive scorer is tied with Pitt's highest scorer not named Crosby.
Garbage
Secondly, let's look at a little something else.
Vancouver played 24 division games this year against 4 non-playoff teams. 2 of those teams were the worst 2 in the NHL.
Pittsburgh played 24 division games against 2 other playoff teams, 1 team in the bottom 5 in the league, and 1 team that was one of the best teams between January and April in New Jersey.
All things being equal, that alone should tell you something about the competition the two defenses were playing against. Vancouver should have done far better, but they were only marginally better if better at all.
Secondly, anyone who says any of the defenders on Pitt are 'marginal' players needs a frontal lobotomy. Letang has become on of the best PP defensemen in the game today. Martin and Michalek were 2 of the top 5 sought after FA last year and have emergered as possible the best shutdown pair in the NHL today. Plus, those two combined to throw in 43 points and I would bet you will be hard pressed to find another 3-4 pairing that are better.
Pitt was one of the the highst scoring defensive group at the same time as supporting one of the statistically best defensive teams???
Finally, Pitt has the 5th fewest goals against for any team in the playoffs. However, they have the 2nd most wins. How does that work??? By having one of (and maybe) the best defensive groups in the NHL.
Pitt is easily top 5, most likely top 3, and arguable the top. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 18:36:39
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Good job on the moderating Slozo! Sorry for my late reply on the other thread, i was doing it at work and was back and forth from it and work  . Would have seen that you started this new one had i checked before i posted it but anyway, i've cut and pasted my response from over there and it's now below..............
* For those confused by what's below, it's in response to Beans' post in the other thread.
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Pretty sure i made my point clear that if you had not said "the absolute top group of defensemen in the league" that i wouldn't be commenting. Lemme check.......
Yup, here it is.....
quote:
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Originally posted by Alex116
I'm not by any means saying they're scrubs, and had you said "one of the best groups" i wouldn't be commenting....
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Beans, you're now twisting what you said. You claimed they were the best group, not one of the best groups. That, is fact. You can't argue that.
I can argue you saying the following though....
quote:
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Origianlly posted by Beans15
How does that happen, with a group of marginal defensemen??
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Where did you get THAT??? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were referring to Nuxfan's comment
quote:
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Originally posted by Nuxfan
Orpik is a solid crushing defender, Letang (and to some extent Martin) is offensively gifted, and the rest are servicable capable defenders.
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As far as....
quote:
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Originally posted by Beans15
Is there any other team in the NHL that can say they were 1st in the PK, 5th in shots against, and 7th in goals against???
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No, unless a team finished tied with them in every one of those categories? Don't this so though.
But, let's look at LA as an example, and lemme qualify this by saying, i can't name more than 4 starters (without looking them up) from LA's d so i'm not saying they're better than what Pittsburgh has to offer. I just wanna compare them using the stats you brought up....
PK%
Pitts - 1st (86.1)
LA - 4th (85.5) 0.1 out of 2nd and just .6 out of 1st
Shots Against
Pitts - 5th (28.7)
LA - 3rd (27.9)
GA
Pitts - 196
LA - 196
So, Pitts is ahead marginally in one, LA marginally in another and they're dead tied in the 3rd one. Maybe a little more even than you thought? BTW, your "Pittsburgh only had 5 fewer wins than the Canucks theory" looks even worse for your argument when you consider the above and take into account that LA had just 3 fewer wins than the Penguins, in what's generally regarded as the more competetive conference!
Next, we have:
quote:
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Originally posted by Beans15
Just a little piece of information for you:
Vancouver's top 6 defensemen - 142 points.
Pitt's top 6 defensemen - 154 points.
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Truly awesome comparison my friend! If someone else used an example like that, they'd be chastised! What you failed to enlighten those reading that comparison, is that you conveniently dropped Niskanen's numbers and threw in Goligoski's! Pretty sure he's no longer part of their top 6.
Further to that, let's look at those top 6 as far as Pts/Game, even leaving Goligoski in instead of Niskanen.....
Pitts - .38
Van - .40
You have to remember, Salo came back from a serious injury and only played 27 games. Every other top 6 guy on Van, except for Ehrhoff, missed at least 15 games, including Edler who was scoring at a .65 ppg pace, which extrapolated over 82 games, would have been more than Ehrhoff or Letang!
The whole point of my debating your info/examples is that a lot of defense, including the PK is a team effort. Last time i checked, most every PK unit is comprised of 2 D AND 2 fwd's, along with a goalie of course! Same goes for 5 on 5. Has NJ's D been THAT good for so long or is it the system that they've played where they've had a multitude of defensive forwards and coaches who preach D! Same goes for the Wild. It's a system! Once Crosby and Malkin were out, Pittsburgh changed it's style of play, part of the reason that Dan Bylsma should run away with the Jack Adams!!!
Anyway, like i said WAY back up at the top, i was just using LA as an example. I'm not even saying they're a better D than Pittsburgh, moreso that numbers don't always tell the story. Off the top of my head, i'd venture to guess that Philly's D with Pronger, Meszaros, Carle, Timonen, Coburn and O'Donnell could be a better all around group. Do they have comparable numbers to the one's we've discussed? Prob not, and i don't have the time nor interest to check! I do know this much though, they don't have a goalie of Fleury's calibre and rode a rookie and a career journeyman for the entire season, part of the reason i picked Buffalo to upset them.
Well, if nothing else, i've "done my research", something that is often asked for when arguing numbers.
Anyway, s'all i got for now, got some playoff hockey to get back to.......
Sincerely,
"Genius" aka Alex116
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 18:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
The Canuckleheads are crackin' me up!
Beans!, how dare you slight their, 'on paper', 'if only they were healthy', 'never played together more than 1 game together', defensive core!
Oh yeah, with facts and statistics.
IF the game were played on considerations and probabilities, perhaps the Canuckleheads would have a valid point, but then we'd have to accept all of Duke's opinions as well!!!
Part of any player or team's greatness, is directly attributable to their durability, ie; Eric Lindros, my Oilers every year, and in this case, the Vancouver defence.
Statistically, Beans made his point and I agree 100%, they did more with less offensive support and their durability is part of the equation.
IMHO.
And how is it that I'm the one who's always getting accused of agreeing with everything Beans???  |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 21:53:46
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quote:
Vancouver played 24 division games this year against 4 non-playoff teams. 2 of those teams were the worst 2 in the NHL.
Pittsburgh played 24 division games against 2 other playoff teams, 1 team in the bottom 5 in the league, and 1 team that was one of the best teams between January and April in New Jersey.
All things being equal, that alone should tell you something about the competition the two defenses were playing against. Vancouver should have done far better, but they were only marginally better if better at all.
Well, as I said before, for vast parts of the season, VAN was playing without many of these defensemen. As Alex mentioned, only Ehrhoff played 80 games this season, every other top-6 dman played less than 65, and Edler and Salo less than 50. We won the Jennings Trophy and were the best in the league with mainly fill-ins from the farm and patchwork defensive matchups. I think Samuelsson even played a couple of games as a defenseman. For the most part, the league has not seen the defense that Vancouver meant to ice yet this year.
I can't argue that VAN certainly benefits from playing against the NW. However, when you only lose 19 games in a season, odds are good you played pretty well against everyone. VAN played most divisions pretty evenly:
vs NW: 18-4-2, +11 goal diff
vs Central: 12-5-3, +6
vs Pacific: 13-5-2, +27
vs Atlantic: 3-2-0, +5
vs NE: 4-3-1, +5
vs SE: 4-0-1, +8
So, take out the NW, and VAN was 36-13-7. I'd say we did pretty well against everyone else as well, its not like we got into the playoffs thanks to a bunch of easy wins against EDM/MIN/COL. You can argue that VAN should have done better against its own division, but its hard to improve on 18-4-2. I'd say we maximized our opportunities. As well, 2 of those losses took place after VAN had won the presidents trophy, when little mattered anymore.
quote:
Secondly, anyone who says any of the defenders on Pitt are 'marginal' players needs a frontal lobotomy. Letang has become on of the best PP defensemen in the game today. Martin and Michalek were 2 of the top 5 sought after FA last year and have emergered as possible the best shutdown pair in the NHL today. Plus, those two combined to throw in 43 points and I would bet you will be hard pressed to find another 3-4 pairing that are better.
You don't have to look far - Ehrhoff and Bieksa were our 3-4 defense pairing until Edler went down at the end of Feb (Edler and Hamhuis were 1-2), and even then Bieksa remained in the 3-4 slot. They combined for 72 points this year, are rotate regularly through the PK as a shutdown pair.
Also, don't twist my words - I certainly never implied that everyone on the PIT blueline is marginal, far from it. Letang is obviously offensively gifted, and Orpik and Martin are great stay-at-home dmen. Michalek as well (had forgotten about him).
But after that? Ben Lovejoy, who has been in and out of the lineup all year, only nailing down a regular position in March, and seems to have a promising future. Deryk Engellend, better known for fighting, seems serviceable. And Matt Niskanen, who again is serviceable but has gone downhill mightily since his career year (so far) in 08/09.
The PIT top-4 are certainly good, but after that it gets pretty weak pretty fast. Meanwhile, VAN is not even playing Rome or Alberts because there isn't enough room for them. Keith Ballard, a top-4 dman on every team he's played on, is constantly fighting to stay in our top-6 and keep ice time. The depth VAN has is crazy - which may be necessary given the injuries we've had this year.
quote:
Finally, Pitt has the 5th fewest goals against for any team in the playoffs. However, they have the 2nd most wins. How does that work??? By having one of (and maybe) the best defensive groups in the NHL.
I'm not sure what that even signifies...didn't VAN have the most wins and the least number of GA in the league? I'm not sure how winning fewer games and letting in more goals proves that your defense is better...
Again, I'm not arguing that PIT defense is certainly good, and they've certainly stepped up with Malkin and Crosby out for most of the second half of the year. But that group of 6 the best in the league? Really? |
Edited by - nuxfan on 04/14/2011 21:55:20 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 23:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
The Canuckleheads are crackin' me up!
Beans!, how dare you slight their, 'on paper', 'if only they were healthy', 'never played together more than 1 game together', defensive core!
Oh yeah, with facts and statistics.
IF the game were played on considerations and probabilities, perhaps the Canuckleheads would have a valid point, but then we'd have to accept all of Duke's opinions as well!!!
Part of any player or team's greatness, is directly attributable to their durability, ie; Eric Lindros, my Oilers every year, and in this case, the Vancouver defence.
Statistically, Beans made his point and I agree 100%, they did more with less offensive support and their durability is part of the equation.
IMHO.
And how is it that I'm the one who's always getting accused of agreeing with everything Beans???
Only 'cause it's campaigning time and I listen to the voters....and I agree 70% !!!
FatElvis for Big Kahuna of Canada!!! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 05:00:21
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Stats do lie. All the time. In fact, we have had all kinds of debates over the fact that we should sometimes throw out stats, just look at how they play, etc . . . and often, we misuse the stats, or give them greater weight than we should. So to base how good a defence is on purely goals against or points scored is silly, IMHO. Defence is a lot more complicated than offence when evaluating.
A defence's main job is preventing good scoring chances, and giving good transition to the offense. And a defence will look better with defensive forwards, and moreso with a great goalie.
So, to really get a solid bearing on Beans' (and now his older, weightier brother Fat Elvis) opinion, I need to know a few things:
1) How good is Fleury? Compared to the rest of the league.
2) How good defensively are the Pittsburgh forwards?
And then to further get into this . . . does anyone put stock into the fact that a team can take an ordinary bunch of defencemen in today's game, teach them a great left-wing lock system (Detroit) or full-on offensively suffocating trap system (New Jersey) and be very successful? How have very "untalented on paper" defences been so successful in the past?
Is the fact that with no Crosby and no Malkin that a team would have to rely on a much more defensively weighted system not taken into account? Put it this way . . . with Malkin and Crosby in the line-up, does the Pens defence suddenly become worse? Because I will bet you dollars to donuts that the goals against rise with their two premier offensive threats in the lineup.
Just some food for thought.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 07:12:59
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Frankly, I am getting more and more nauseated with the common "if this" and "when this" arguments from people on this site. We can talk until we are blue in the face about what could have or would have happened if Sammy Salo didn't slip on a banana peel or if GA would increase if Crosby(who is unbelievably responsible on defense) would not have gotten his bell rung. Even more nauseating is how quickly people sluff off and dismiss legitimate points. Vancouver had 24 games against 4 non-playoff teams in their division. Pitt's 12 games alone against Philly and New York were significantly more difficult(based on the teams records) than Vancouver's 12 games against their next toughest opponents in Calgary and Minnesota.
Let's try a little something that some might not be able to do. Let's debate what actually happened.
Ultimately, my original point is that Pitt is the best core of defensemen in the NHL. I have made my points and I don't feel important to do that all over again. All I have heard is how Vancouver is comparable. Sure, Alex brought up some interesting points about LA that might bring them into the mix as well. So that is 3, and it is arguable in all levels which group is better. So I say that Pitts the best and get jumped all over and the only thing anyone can bring to the table is a comparison, not proving any other group is better. Just a comparison, butt I get completely jumped by making a comment that has proven over the recent posts to be, at the least, hard to debate. This site is slowly becoming a forum for those who see the world in blue in white or full of killer whales to jump on any opinion that does not support those teams.
And leave my tubby brother out of this. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 04/15/2011 : 09:16:12
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| Question for you beans..... What do oiler players do at this time of year, id find it hard to believe many golf courses would be open in Edmonton around this time of year....driving range perhaps? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 09:27:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4803
Question for you beans..... What do oiler players do at this time of year, id find it hard to believe many golf courses would be open in Edmonton around this time of year....driving range perhaps?
Actually, Edmonton just got 20 cm of snow yesterday so they are not golfing either. What does this have to do with Pittsburgh's defensive corp?? You must be a Vancouver fan. If we are going to play games like little kids, take a look at the hand pal. I know I cheer for a team that has a full hand of Cup rings. How many does your team have???? I know I have been to 5 Stanley Cup parades, how many have you been to?? I know I the Stanley Cup has been in the arena of my favorite team on many, many occasions. What about yours??
Golfing.......Burn........Ouch, how can I recover from that....... |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 10:49:44
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Slozo, you are slightly wrong tin your belief that the Pens would have allowed more goals with Crosby & Malkin in the lineup. Prior to their injuries the pens where ahead of the pack in goals against and this was after Fleury sh** the bed early on and without Staal. Although, only time would of told the full story so neither of our view points can be deemed the correct response.
Do I think the Pen's D names are the best in the league? No. The likes of Philly, Nashville, Detroit, Vancouver etc. are much better known and bring in theory more to the table. That said come playoff time is their another group I would sooner have back their with the game on the line. Hell no! Letang knows how to win, Orpik is not flashy he just gets it done, all while punishing people & Michalek & Martin compliment each other amazingly. Not to mention they are much more durable then 3 of the canucks top 4 who seem to get injuried frequently. Just going on facts & history no cheap shots intended.
As far as Slozo's request about Goalies & Fwds and how they compliment the D & what they bring to the teams.
Do i think Fleury is better then Luongo? I do, I am sure their are those who would argue over a 82 game season, but track records speak for themselves & would I rather have Fleury in a 7 game series? Most definitely.
Fwds are very very even. The canucks have the well known Keslers, Malhotra's, Sedin's, Burrows, Raymond as well as Hansen, Torres, etc who are very responsible in their own end. As a complete unit though, I believe although less glorified the Pens have the most responsible Fwds in the league followed very closely by Det, Phil, Vancouver & Chicago.
To me Kovalev is a filler and so I do not mention him in this equation. However, with our regular lineup only Malkin is a defensive liability & he eliminates those flaws by dominating with the puck. Although undervalued Talbot, Dupuis, Kennedy, Staal, Cooke, Kunitz, Adams, Rupp are a primary reason why every yr we are a top PK Team.
Overall this is a moot arguement, cuz it really comes down to what you look for when distingushing what you believe makes up the best of the best. Some of us will look for offensive production, others consistency & some durability on top of overall production.
Regular season you can't go wrong with about 10 different D Cores. Playoff time track record would suggest any team Pronger is on is a good bet as well as the systems of Detroit & Pitt are consistently reliable.
Until Luongo stands on his head for an entire playoffs & the Fwd's & D show me they can carry the load throughout the playoffs, I see know reason to deem them number one at anything other then overall regular season points. In recent history, beyond Detroit that has stood for little else, but an early summer.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 04/15/2011 13:46:43 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 15:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Let's try a little something that some might not be able to do. Let's debate what actually happened.
Ultimately, my original point is that Pitt is the best core of defensemen in the NHL. I have made my points and I don't feel important to do that all over again. All I have heard is how Vancouver is comparable. Sure, Alex brought up some interesting points about LA that might bring them into the mix as well. So that is 3, and it is arguable in all levels which group is better. So I say that Pitts the best and get jumped all over and the only thing anyone can bring to the table is a comparison, not proving any other group is better. Just a comparison, butt I get completely jumped by making a comment that has proven over the recent posts to be, at the least, hard to debate. This site is slowly becoming a forum for those who see the world in blue in white or full of killer whales to jump on any opinion that does not support those teams.
Beans, you can call me biases, you can say i wear Orcas or live with killer whales or whatever but what you seem to be missing, unless i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, is that my only beef with your OP was that you made it seem like it was a no brainer that Pitts D is the "absolute best" group in the NHL. The way you said it is what irked me. If you said, "one of the top 3", which seems to be what you would agree with seeing as it's pretty hard to prove anyway, i wouldn't have had a problem with it. It's just that i read it as it was written and it came off like you were emphatic that they were the best group!
My stats pretty much compared evenly, the LA defense with Pittsburgh's. That's not to say they're better, especially in the playoffs when things like experience come into play, but they're "in the mix" as i believe you agreed?
I really can't prove to you that Vancouver's D is better than the rest. I mean, who am i? I'm a hockey fan. Even if 30 GM's said the Canucks D is the best it doesn't necessarily prove it. For example, if the Pens were to lose the next 4 games 9-0, would that mean they're no longer one of the top D's? Or did they just play horribly / slump at a very inopportune time?
My apologies for the sarcastic comment about "opinions can't be wrong...." and you're entitled to yours as much as i am mine. Looking at stats is one thing, comparing D's on paper is another and performance is yet another.
IMHO, in no particular order, the top D's are Vancouver, LA, Philly, Pittsburgh and just missing, i'd prob throw in SJ and Calgary, though there's prob more D's out east i don't see as much of that could be as good as those (NYR, Bos, Mtl, etc?).
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 16:45:20
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quote:
Beans, you can call me biases, you can say i wear Orcas or live with killer whales or whatever but what you seem to be missing, unless i'm misunderstanding what you're saying, is that my only beef with your OP was that you made it seem like it was a no brainer that Pitts D is the "absolute best" group in the NHL. The way you said it is what irked me. If you said, "one of the top 3", which seems to be what you would agree with seeing as it's pretty hard to prove anyway, i wouldn't have had a problem with it. It's just that i read it as it was written and it came off like you were emphatic that they were the best group!
+1
Beans - you're pretty quick to jump all over people who make bold statements that you don't agree with, so try not to get all agitated when others do the same. Alex is right - "absolute best" is really the only reason this whole thing started.
There is nothing to get nauseated about, forums are all about discussion. You made legitimate points, others countered them with points of their own - but as Mario said, the question is in the end entirely unprovable one way or the other. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2011 : 18:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Not to mention they are much more durable then 3 of the canucks top 4 who seem to get injuried frequently. Just going on facts & history no cheap shots intended.
If you look at the numbers our, sorry Beans, the Canucks' top 4 isn't the injury prone group you seem to think they are? BTW, Salo's is no longer considered top 4 here so if you were including him, it might change things a bit?
Here's their GP's for their careers (not inc. rookie season's where they may have been called up part way through).
Alex Edler - 75, 80, 76, 51 (serious back injury this season)
Dan Hamhuis - 80, 82, 81, 80, 82, 78, 64
Christian Ehrhoff - 64, 82, 77, 77, 80, 79
Kevin Bieksa - without looking up his numbers, i'll concede, he's had some injuries!
Not trying to start something here Mario, just think the "durability" thing is questionable and that Sami Salo prob skews peoples views on our D, not to mention, the rough year injury-wise the Canucks D went through this season!
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Do i think Fleury is better then Luongo? I do, I am sure their are those who would argue over a 82 game season, but track records speak for themselves & would I rather have Fleury in a 7 game series? Most definitely.
Hard to argue this Mario! I mean, i think Luongo's proven he's as good, if not better, during the regular season, but until he's "done it" for more than just a series or two in the playoffs, it's hard to claim he's a better big game goalie than Fleury! A lot of fans will point to the Olympics and i have to say, Luongo played well, BUT, he didn't steal games for the Canadians, though it's not like a goalie for Canada has many chances to do so. Basically, he played well enough to help win the Gold, and that is it. AND, there's not telling how Fleury would have done, if given the chance. I'm confident the gold would still be hanging around the Canadian's neck if they chose to go with MAF! BUT, that's a "what if" scenario, and i don't wanna get Beans all riled up. 
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Fwds are very very even.
I don't watch the Pens enough to know how defensively responsible their forwards are. I would like to give a slight edge to Vancouver due to Kesler being a Selke finalist in the past and a favorite this year but it's too hard to compare when i don't know enough about the Pens.
I think you said it best when you said everyone looks for different things when evaluating D's!
Anyway, off to watch the Canucks game! I'm hoping that a couple months from now, i can come back to this post and edit it! Because "i reserve the right to change my opinion IF the Canucks do in fact win the Cup"
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Pittsburgh's Defensive Corps 
