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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  16:42:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

FER, how can you say such a thing? Seriously, don't you know that Phil Kessel scores 30 goals a year?? That is what TO needed to they got it. What they had to give up doesn't matter.

Phil Kessel is an ELITE 30 goal scorer. Nothing else matters. Don't you know anything about hockey? Quit with these ad nauseum, and quite frankly boring statements.



So you are ready to admit that a player who can score 30 goals a year, nearly guaranteed, with almost any other players on his line, is elite? You are ready to admit that now, Beans?

Because you argued otherwise. Just like one of your arguments eearlier was about how sick you get of hearing about it, and then when I put back a similar comment about how I get sick of hearing about POTENTIAL (ie - wishful thinking, imagining the absolute high end possibilities) with this trade - you lose it.

Funny, actually.

Then, without admitting you were wrong on the elite scorer thing, you have to try and twist the argument into you trying to put words into other people's mouths, as if I said "nothing else matters".

Cripes. Seriously.

You know, I can take Andyhack's tongue in cheek gloating no worries (I'd be doing the same if I were him). But what I can't stand is people who absolutely refuse to ever concede a point, because they think they are right no matter what.

30 goals is an elite scorer.

Admit it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest0010
( )

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  17:27:37  Reply with Quote
Guest 6592 and Fat_Elvis_Rocked, I like it. Great discussion. Interesting points. To reiterate:

A.) Guest 6592
For example, If I was to trade away Mike Fisher for a 7th round draft pick, would i suddenly "win" the trade just because the 7th round pick turned into Henrik Zetterberg?

Conversely, if I traded Ben Eager for 3 first round draft picks, would I "lose" the trade just because all three picks flopped and never made the nhl?


This is exactly my point. Very nicely put. I love it.


B.) Fat_Elvis_Rocked

Really? Cherry picking names out of a hat bolsters your point? Three similar draft positions, spread out from 1993 to 2010, cements your rebuttal?

Let me try, and I'll even keep it truer to what the Bruins had to do, 3 picks in 2 consecutive years;

Jordan Staal 2nd overall 2006
Carl Sneep 32nd overall 2006
Logan Couture 9 th overall 2007 - advantage draft picks over Kessel

Evgeni Malkin 2nd overall 2004
Dave Bolland 32nd overall 2004
Brian Lee 9th overall 2005 - another for draft picks

Eric Staal 2nd 2003
Ryan Stone 32nd 2003
Ladislav Smid 9th 2004 - hmmm draft picks again

Kari Lehtonen 2nd 2002
Janos Vas 32nd 2202
Dion Phaneuf 9th 2003 - still draft picks


Good point too. Touche. Any of these would have been a bad trade for Toronto.

The problem is Fat Elvis; that it didn't have to be a 2nd overall pick. It could just as easily have been a 10th overall pick, a 16th overall pick, and a 42nd overall pick. Run that through the matrix and see what comes up.

Boston had to win like three coin flips to hit Seguin. First, Toronto had to finish in the bottom four of the league. Second, Boston had to win one coin flip to secure the 2nd overall draft. Third, they had to have a Tyler Seguin available to make any of that possible.

Anyway, it's interesting. I think what somebody mentioned is right. Both teams benefited from this because they got what they wanted. Probably, at the end of the day, Boston will come out on top because Tyler Seguin looks like he's going to be a sick player. But, when considering "worst trades of all-time", I wouldn't even consider this as a candidate. There are MUCH worse trades than this. Let's start a thread for worst trade of all-time.









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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  08:47:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, Slozo. Are you kidding?? I was laying the sarcasm on pretty thick, I didn't think I would have to explain it. The post was to make fun at the completely laughable opinions stated as of late but clearly it went well over your head.

As I stated in a post on 10/21, my opinion of an elite player is a 40+ goal scorer and/or a PPG+ player. Kessel is neither of those things yet. He is off to a fine start this season but he has never hit any of these 'elite' targets.

Let me give a few examples of my point. Would you consider any of these players 'elite' scorers in the NHL:

Jeff Skinner
Logan Couture
David Backes
Milan Lucic
Drew Stafford
Brendan Morrow
Michel Grabner
Dustin Penner
Jussi Jokinen
Mikael Samuelsson
Patrick Hornquist
Matt Moulson
Alex Burrows
Johan Franzen
Brad Boyes
Jason Arnott
Alex Frolov
Shane Doan
Brian Little
Scott Hartnell
David Booth
Devon Setoguchi


Any of those guys immediately bring the word 'elite' to mind?? They sure don't for me! They are all very good players but they are not elite.

All of these players have produced 30 goals and less than a PPG in at leasts one of the last three seasons. The fact that Kessel has scored 30 or more in 3 straight years does not make the 30 goal/less than PPG season elite.

I need to admit nothing. 30 goals is not elite. Period.



To Mr Guest, who cares?? Who cares what could have been and what should have been? How about what did happen??

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/22/2011 14:24:07
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  11:26:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
only problem with what you said bean is that kessel has scored 36 an 30 goal in 70 games those first 2 years of 3 straight 30 goal years give him 12 games each year and aleast one year is 40 goal, also if you say ppg makes you elite what about rick nash, he won the rocket award with 41 goal but only 57 points he also has had 2 seasons of 40 plus goals, 4 seasons of 30plus goal, his numbers are close to the same as kessel i'd say Nash is elite, why not kessel, only thought on why he had 2 subpar first 2 seasons was that he had cancer.
also i really don't think you should have included jeff skinner on your examples because he was 18 when he put up 63 points if he doesn't improve this year then he is not elite but i'd say he is an elite young player. ovie and crosby or malkin numbers are rare in rookies.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  14:30:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Buckethead, I hear what you are saying. However if you followed any of the wagers this season, I don't see Rick Nash as an elite scorer either. Finally, of that entire list of players, who would be considered elite?? Anyone??? Those are Kessel's peers, not Ovechkin, Crosby, and Malkin.

Again, who cares about what could have been? When talking about historic production, it is what has happened and not what could have happpened. Kessel has yet to score a 40 goal season nor have a PPG season. That can not be argued. That is my opinion of an elite scorer. You can argue all you want if your standard of an elite player is lower than that, however you can not argue with what he has produced.

Furthermore, I find it awesome that no one talks about Kessel's first season of 11 goals and 29 pts when looking at Seguin's completely pathetic 22 pts last season.

Hey Slozo, the last statement was heavily sarcastic. Just so you don't get confused like last time.
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  14:46:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
beans i did talk about kessel's first two seasons if you read what i wrote, he did have cancer his rookie year, that takes alot out of anyone, that is why i think he had a subpar two years,
rick nash has had two season's of a ppg, which 1 of those years he had 40 goals, making him elite in how you judge elite players. check the stats.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  14:53:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phil Kessel's cancer and his fight to overcome that is an insirational story. However, I don't recall anyone ever saying his first 2 seasons was lessened by his battle. He missed a number of games due to the fight, but I recall him coming back to full time NHL games when he was healthy and pretty close to 100%.

And I know the stats. Nash has had a few good seasons, but 2 out of 10 is not elite. I can appreciate when a player like Ovechkin has an off season like last year when his first 4 seasons were brilliant. However, Rick Nash scoring less than 70 points every one of his 10 seasons and his one 40 goal season does not make him elite.

Regardless, you still have not answered anything about the other 22 players with 30 goal seasons an less than PPG performance. If you argument is one player, it's a pretty weak argument.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  14:56:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't believe some knucklehead started this one back up.

For most people there always has to be a winner and a loser. In competition is supposed to be that way.
But in the business side of competition there isn't always a clear winner and loser. Has anyone out there even thought for a minute that Burke got exactly what he felt he needed and felt comfortable with what he gave up to get what he needed and in that sense it is a win for him.

For some fans like Beans he has to use his own valuation of Kessel to win his argument. What he always fails to consider is the opinions of the people who made the deal.
Burke was totally comfortable giving up what he did to get Kessel, knowing the risk of the deal. Burke identified the need for a pure goal scorer, he wanted a youngster, Kessel certainly fit the bill. There was no way Burke makes the deal if he feels he will not get what he wanted. He has gotten what he wanted out of Kessel. Boston got what they wanted out of the deal. In the real world this is truly effective business. It is a win-win for both sides. They both have gotten what they wanted.
The winner of the deal is not determined by Leaf fans who will always say the Leafs won. It is not determined by fans who are less fond of Leafs who will never admit to anything good in Leaf land. It is determined by the two people who made the deal.

I must ask you Beans, have you heard Burke ever say he was not satisfied with the Kessel deal?

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/22/2011 15:18:40
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  15:19:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
look at the stats, nash had 2 season of 40 goals, not just one, also first 2 seasons where before the lockout and when you play with no other first liners then you don't always get a point a game, but then again you don't seem to see that with elite players that don't play with other elite or 1st line caliber players they are shutdown easier, the leafs did not have a 1st liner till this year and he is injuried, and yes cancer can suck alot out of you, the pure fact Kessel came back that year is amazing, and if he came back before being 100% then he would take longer to recover meaning he would not have played as well, the result the subpar first 2 years.and the reason for no comment too the other players on your list is that i don't think they are elite players, they are very good players but not elite, i have very different views on elite than you, you seem to go by stats alone and then not even check the stats when you argue that you check stats. also i guess winning the goal scoring title with a s***ty team pre-lockout and only in your second year is still a bad year.
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  15:25:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
also would toews and kane and hossa be just very good or elite players in your mind?
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  15:33:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Buckethead, by the very definition of elite, where there is only a few of a group that over excel at what they do, Kessel does not fit the elite category of player in the NHL.
In fact there have been only a few elite players to play in the NHL. Lets face it, only a few players in the NHL today can be considered with the elite players of the past.
None of which we are talking about would include the name Kessel.
We are talking Ovie and Crosby as todays elite. Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard out of a dozen elite players in the past. I am positive this is what Beans means by elite players. Not many fit that category.
As much as Leaf fans want Kessel to be in the elite category, he just isn't.
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  15:47:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i'm not a leafs fan, but i will understand if his elite is what you say, but i'm not sold on very few elite players if you want to put it a few then its pretty much just the to 5 all time points leaders. ovie and crosby are never going to get close to those numbers.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2011 :  18:19:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Burke was totally comfortable giving up what he did to get Kessel, knowing the risk of the deal



Porkchop, that I totally do NOT believe. I don't think anyone would say that, had Burke known he was going to finish bottom-2 in the NHL the following season and with Hall and Seguin lined up as the top-2 picks, that he would have been comfortable making that deal for Kessel.

Which is the "risk" of any deal you make when you deal a first round pick and your team is not very good.
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Guest2743
( )

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  01:27:03  Reply with Quote
Seguin in my opinion will become and elite player and when i say elite i mean a ppg player easisly. Kessel while he may score 40 goals a year will not be a ppg over his career.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  04:29:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I understand where you are coming from Nuxfan. I am sure if Burke was assured a top 2 pick he would have held off on the deal. But he wasn't, he took the risk. That tells me he felt comfortable with taking that risk.
What makes you NOT believe that Burke was comfortable taking the risk and giving up what he did to Kessel when you consider there was know way for him to know for sure he was giving up a top 2 draft pick.
Remember I am not arguing the Leafs won a trade, I believe in true business a deal is made where both sides win.

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/23/2011 04:33:01
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TheRC
Rookie



105 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  07:15:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2743

Seguin in my opinion will become and elite player and when i say elite i mean a ppg player easisly. Kessel while he may score 40 goals a year will not be a ppg over his career.



I don't know... Phil is on pace for a 94 goal, 164 point season. That's bloody elite in my books.

Obviously that is sarcasm. Can this thread please die?

"If at first you don't succeed, you fail"
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  13:16:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Elite SCORER, Beans.

An elite PLAYER brings up a different connotation altogether . . . and it's not what I said, or what you said he wasn't. You said he wasn't an elite SCORER.

He is an elite SCORER, by almost any measure.

It's a very small group to score 30 or more in 3 seasons in a row (and not to jinx poor maligned Phil, but it sure looks as if it will be 4 in a row), look it up.

Hard to argue with someone who continually changes an argument to suit their purpose.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  13:21:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok just to answer Beans pathetic list of players who scored 30 goals in the past three seasons and asked if they were elite.

First of all those guys scored 30 goals just once or maybe twice. Kessel did it 3 times in a row. A whooping 9 NHL players scored 30 goals or more in the past 3 seasons. Ovechkin, Carter, Kovalchuk, Nash, Marleau, Kessel, Iginla, Crosby and B. Ryan.

62 players scored 30 goals at least once in the past 3 seasons. Here is the top 20 out of that list.

1. Ovechkin 138,
2. Marleau 119
2. Stamkos 119
4. Crosby 116
5. Carter 115
5. Kovalchuk 115
7. Iginla 110
8. Perry 109
9. Nash 105
10. Heatley 104
11. Semin 102
11. E. Staal 102
13. D. Sedin 101
14. Vanek 100
14. B.Ryan 100
16. Kessel 98
17. Kesler 92
17. Eriksson 92
19. Toews 91
20. St-Louis 90

Do what you will with that list but I think this provides what players out there are consistent goal scorers in todays NHL. Im sure guys like Skinner and Tavares will be up there, but this is sorely base on the last three seasons, and just goal scored, and not base on who they play with or if there was an injury.

What I found interresting out of that list is to see Marleau tied for second.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  13:35:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jeff Skinner - 31, rookie
Logan Couture - 32, rookie
David Backes - 79
Milan Lucic - 58
Drew Stafford - 65
Brendan Morrow - 58
Michel Grabner - 39, rookie
Dustin Penner - 72
Jussi Jokinen - 56
Mikael Samuelsson - 67
Patrick Hornquist - 53
Matt Moulson - 62, two seasons
Alex Burrows - 89
Johan Franzen - 72
Brad Boyes - 64
Jason Arnott - 69
Alex Frolov - 58
Shane Doan - 69
Brian Little - 62
Scott Hartnell - 68
David Booth - 62
Devon Setoguchi - 73

I redid Beans list with how many goals they scored in the past 3 seasons just to show you how pointless that list truly is when trying to compare with Kessel's ability to score. The closest to Kessel on that list is Burrows with 9 goals behind and after is Backes with 19 behind. Here is a list of players that Beans purposly omitted from his list to try to prove a point.

Hossa 85
Datsyuk 82
Spezza 76
Zetterberg 78
M. Richards 84
Kopitar 86
P. Kane 82
Selanne 85

I didn't put Malkin, Parise or Gaborik on the list because they were all out for an extended period of time.

See the list from the post above to really see what names are around Kessel.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  17:00:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Here is a list of players that Beans purposly omitted from his list to try to prove a point.

Hossa 85
Datsyuk 82
Spezza 76
Zetterberg 78
M. Richards 84
Kopitar 86
P. Kane 82
Selanne 85

See the list from the post above to really see what names are around Kessel.



Really? Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kopitar, Kane, Richards, Selanne etc are now being treated as comparables to Kessel, simply based on number of goals scored over the past 3 years?

Please tell us you don't think that this list of players is comparable to Kessel, simply because they have averaged nearly 30 goals/season over the last 3 seasons. Please tell us you understand that there are other reasons why this list of players is significantly more valuable than Kessel.
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Guest2747
( )

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  17:45:10  Reply with Quote
toronto wins the trade so far and will for the next few years because kessel out performs bostons players from the trade for now and as of this moment toronto wins so far for the future who knows lets wait and see
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  18:31:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
nuxfan, just because you don't think kessel is any good, doesn't me he is not compareable, Datsyuk, Selanne are the only names on Leafs81 post that i think are above kessel, the rest are around kessel. and these stats are only the last 3 years remember, not over their career.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  19:17:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:

Here is a list of players that Beans purposly omitted from his list to try to prove a point.

Hossa 85
Datsyuk 82
Spezza 76
Zetterberg 78
M. Richards 84
Kopitar 86
P. Kane 82
Selanne 85

See the list from the post above to really see what names are around Kessel.



Really? Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kopitar, Kane, Richards, Selanne etc are now being treated as comparables to Kessel, simply based on number of goals scored over the past 3 years?

Please tell us you don't think that this list of players is comparable to Kessel, simply because they have averaged nearly 30 goals/season over the last 3 seasons. Please tell us you understand that there are other reasons why this list of players is significantly more valuable than Kessel.




I didn't say anything of that sort. I just tried to prove that Beans list was so out of proportion. Just like that one. Because Beans chose the names to put on the list and he omitted those players.

I know some players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk has a way better all around game and they are superior to Kessel, but we are just talking goals here. Do what you will with the stat, there is nowhere in my post that I said that I thought Kessel was superior to any of those guys, look it up, read carefully, I just threw in some stats so it could help some people baseing their opinions on the trade or on the new debate about if Kessel is an elite GOAL scorer or not.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  19:49:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One more time, hopefully for the last time.

My opinion of an 'elite' scorer is a player who scored more than 40 goals in a season and/or can produce at a PPG.

If you would like to say that I missed guys on the list who have scored more than 30 goals in the past three years you are correct. I intentionally left out the 30 goal scorers who have also been PPG players in the past three years. So yes, players like Patrick Marleau, Henrik Zetterberg, and Pavel Datsuyk do not get erroneously compared to a player like Phil Kessel who is a full step down on all of those guys.

I didn't think it was that hard to figure out. If you disagree with my logic, fine. But I have not changed my opinion or what I my standard of an elite player is. If you believe that a 30 goal scorer is elite, that is your choice. I do not agree.


It's amazing how quickly people jump all over an opinion when they clearly do not understand the opinion to start with. Yes, I am clearly calling out Slozo and Leafs81 in this case as they both accused me of omitting players or switching the argument.

I didn't switch the argument, those mentioned either failed to read or understand the opinion. Just one final time.

40 goals AND/OR a PPG player. Scoring to me is producing offense, not just scoring goals It's not that difficult to understand. We are not just talking goals. At least I am not and never have.



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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  20:02:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@buckethead - I have never said Kessel is no good, nor do I think that is the case. He is a good uni-dimensional player who can (as has been said many times) usually be counted on for 30-35 goals and 55-65 points in a season. Some teams don't have any 30 goal scorers, and most teams would love to have a regular 30 goal scorer. I think he has some downside in that, other than scoring, he brings very little to the table - he does not PK, take faceoffs, bodycheck, fight, bring extraordinary leadership abilities, and is not counted on to be particularly defensively conscious. Which means that for your money, you get one thing, so he'd better do it a lot.

So, Selanne and Datsyuk are the only 2 names above Kessel - which by definition means you think Kessel is equal to or above:

- Hossa: 389g in 897 games, nearly PPG over his entire 14 year NHL career including a 100 pt season
- Jason Spezza: 192g in 526 games, over PPG his career
- Zetterberg: 230g in 586 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kopitar: 138g in 393 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kane: 103g in 317 games, nearly PPG his career

vs Kessel: 128g in 374 games, about 0.6 PPG his entire 5 year career.

Thankfully you recognized Selanne and Datsyuk, and I'll give you Richards - from a scoring point of view, Kessel and Richards are nearly even. Of course the fact that Richards is one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL today and STILL manages to score as many points as uni-dimensional Kessel means I rank him higher. But other than that, all I can say is wow.

@Leafs81 - did you consider that Beans omitted those names for a reason? Beans' initial list was quite comparable to Kessel - players that are good for 30-ish goals and 60-ish points year in and year out. The list was pretty accurate - and for Kessel to be included in that list is not a slight against him.


Edited by - nuxfan on 10/23/2011 20:03:53
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2011 :  23:12:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, this has kinda gotten off topic i guess but i think this whole "elite' thing has to be based on what YOU think is elite. Is there a definition out there in an NHL dictionary or something that i missed? It's all dependant upon what one considers elite.

Let's face it, from what we've learned, we can deduce the following...........

Slozo feels Alex Burrows is ELITE!

Beans still feels Alex Burrows is a diving, whining, crying, cheap shotting, fingerbiting, POS, d-bag who he'd NEVER want on ANY team he cheers for.

Now, does everyone understand how we can each have our own opinion of what elite means when discussing NHL hockey players???
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  07:10:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Wow, this has kinda gotten off topic i guess but i think this whole "elite' thing has to be based on what YOU think is elite. Is there a definition out there in an NHL dictionary or something that i missed? It's all dependant upon what one considers elite.

Let's face it, from what we've learned, we can deduce the following...........

Slozo feels Alex Burrows is ELITE!

Beans still feels Alex Burrows is a diving, whining, crying, cheap shotting, fingerbiting, POS, d-bag who he'd NEVER want on ANY team he cheers for.

Now, does everyone understand how we can each have our own opinion of what elite means when discussing NHL hockey players???



Elite SCORER.

Elite SCORER.

Elite SCORER.

Do I really have to keep repeating myself, only to be misquoted EVERY SINGLE BLOODY TIME ?!?

It's like arguing with a surly teenager!

Beans, you previously have mentioned in other threads that a 30 goal scorer who can do it consistantly is rare. Now, because Kessel is a Leaf, you have upped the ante to 40 goals - a mark that is only reached by a handful or two each year.

2010/11
Perry 50
Stamkos 45
Iginla 43
D.Sedin 41
R. Kesler 41

2009/10
Crosby 51
Stamkos 51
Ovechkin 50
Marleau 44
Gaborik 42
Kovalchuk 41
Semin 40

2008/09
Ovechkin 56
Carter 46
Parise 45
Kovalchuk 43
Nash 40
E.Staal 40
Hossa 40
Vanek 40

So, let's get down to the nitty-gritty. Beans, do you consider a player who has scored 40 goals once in his career to be an elite scorer? When after that 40 goals has been scored is the player no longer an elite scorer . . . when he can't make 30 goals again? How many times does a player have to score 40 goals to become an elite scorer?

Give us a tangible definition.

That way we can call you on it later!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  07:58:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
- Hossa: 389g in 897 games, nearly PPG over his entire 14 year NHL career including a 100 pt season
- Jason Spezza: 192g in 526 games, over PPG his career
- Zetterberg: 230g in 586 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kopitar: 138g in 393 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kane: 103g in 317 games, nearly PPG his career

ok, hossa is injury prone, not elite just good if he could stay healthy then yes. spezza injury prone not elite, if he didn't get injury every damn year then he would be elite. Zetterberg is good ,not elite, Datsyuk makes him better. and kane, does have better numbers but not in goals, and points not by that much, kopitar has 19 games more 6 goals more than kessel, but he does have more points by 109, but that being said he didn't have to fight cancer in his rookie year. so yes i do think kessel is a better and more consistent scorer then all but kopitar who is his equal in scoring, the rest are around kessel like i stated earlier. Also we were talking able the last 3 years not their careers.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  08:33:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, here is a just another typical 'strawman' argument from Slozo. I would love for you to show me anywhere in the past 6000+ posts where I called a 30 goal scorer an elite scorer.

I'll wait here.............This will take a while........


While I am waiting, Slozo can you read this line below

and/or a PPG player.

Everyone, include you while you are jumping up and down like a kindergarten kid not getting his way shouting ELITE SCORER, ELITE SCORER, ELITE SCORER, have continuously failed to see that part of the line. Talk about being misquoted.


Slozo, you can continue to try, and continue to fail at calling me on stuff all you want. Until you stop selectively reading opinions, you will continue to make yourself appear to be just another Leaf fan. If you want me to say that Phil Kessel is one of the better GOAL SCORERS in the NHL today, you would have little argumement from me. He is top 20 in the past 3 season and that is pretty good company to keep. If you want me to say that an 'elite' scorer and 'Phil Kessel" belong in the same sentence, you will not hear that from me. At least not to this point in his career. His 64 pt career high does not put him in elite company and his lack of any 40 goal seasons does the same.

I wonder if you can have the respect that others might have different opinions that you?? It's not that I am arguing the facts of what Kessel and other have done, I am making an opinion of what is elite. Your definition is different than mine and I appreciate that. You believe that a 30 goal season for 3 years makes a player elite. I don't agree but respect your opinion. What makes me laugh outloud at my computer screen is how hard you are trying to make me agree with your opinion all the while you can not respect or acknowledge my opinion.

What is that definition of arrogance again??

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Guest0010
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Posted - 10/24/2011 :  08:52:03  Reply with Quote
Can I just say, that I absolutely LOVE this thread. This is single-handedly the best thread that has ever been written on this site ever.

Clearly, "elite" is a qualitative term. To argue what defines an "elite" player in the NHL is moot, and for another thread perhaps. However, let us use Beans' definition of "elite" 40 goals and PPG over a season; as he is the only one who has proposed a qualitative definition for "elite" status.

By Beans' definition, Phil Kessel is not yet an elite player in the NHL. That being the case, we'll have to downgrade Phil Kessel's status from "elite" to "top-tier"; which isn't really that bad really. In our pool, Kessel was taken in the same round as Briere, Gaborik, Havlat, Franzen, Selanne, Spezza. Not "elite" players by the strict definition of the name; but certainly top-tier players. I would give up something to have any of those players on my team.

So, by Beans' definition, Phil Kessel is not an elite player. Beans, this is entirely hypothetical - because the Kessel trade was for draft picks and NOT Tyler Seguin - but hypothetically speaking: How many goals and points do you expect Tyler Seguin to produce a.) this year?, b.) in his career year?

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  09:02:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116


Let's face it, from what we've learned, we can deduce the following...........

Slozo feels Alex Burrows is ELITE!



Ha, I thought the same thing. Now if only those run-of-the-mill NHL'ers Daniel and Henrik Sedin could pick up a thing or two from our elite Kesler-Burrows tandem...
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  12:43:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BucketHead

- Hossa: 389g in 897 games, nearly PPG over his entire 14 year NHL career including a 100 pt season
- Jason Spezza: 192g in 526 games, over PPG his career
- Zetterberg: 230g in 586 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kopitar: 138g in 393 games, nearly PPG his career
- Kane: 103g in 317 games, nearly PPG his career

ok, hossa is injury prone, not elite just good if he could stay healthy then yes. spezza injury prone not elite, if he didn't get injury every damn year then he would be elite. Zetterberg is good ,not elite, Datsyuk makes him better. and kane, does have better numbers but not in goals, and points not by that much, kopitar has 19 games more 6 goals more than kessel, but he does have more points by 109, but that being said he didn't have to fight cancer in his rookie year. so yes i do think kessel is a better and more consistent scorer then all but kopitar who is his equal in scoring, the rest are around kessel like i stated earlier. Also we were talking able the last 3 years not their careers.



Really! Spezza, Hossa and ZETTERBERG are not elite and Kessel is a better scorer than the three of them and Patrick Kane...................

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  14:29:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This topic is comical......Someone please start a new thread with a definition of ELITE!!! Lol....

Is / was Michael Ryder "elite" when he scored 30 in back to back seasons with the Habs?

Is / was Brian Rolston "elite" when he scored three straight 30+ goal seasons with the defensive minded Wild? Throw in another 30+ season when he was a Bruin and surely he's "elite", no?

How about this guy as a comparable to Kessel, Thomas Vanek? His 6 years thus far see him with 25, 43, 36, 40, 28 and 32 goals! Only once though, was he a ppg player. Is he "elite"? This may be the closest / best comparison to Phil Kessel??

Then there are guys like Olli Jokinen who i suppose for a period of time could have been either called elite, or considered to be "playing at an elite level"? He did have seasons of:
38G 89Pts
39G 91Pts
34G 71Pts
These were back to back to back following the lockout and were preceded by seasons of 26 and 36 goals? Is/was he elite??

I think Beans' criteria is pretty fair. I slot Kessel in with a guy like Patrick Sharp, who is one heckuva player, but not quite at the "elite" status as some others. Granted, if Kessel were playing alongside Toews or Kane, maybe he'd be putting up better numbers?
Also, someone, i believe maybe nuxfan, touched on the other "intangibles" that one can argue, perhaps bump up a borderline guy to elite status. Ryan Kesler for example, still is not a point per game guy and has only just once (last year) broken even the 30 goal plateau (41) yet many would throw the "elite" status at him due to his Selke / shutdown qualities (similar to Mike Richards). Personally, even though early last season there was Hart talk surrounding him, i don't consider Kesler as an "elite" player like i would Datsyuk, who not only wins Selke's, but puts up 90 point years! I guess that goes back to the "elite scorer" vs "elite player" argument though? No doubt, Kesler is not yet considered an "elite scorer".

Regardless, this thread has totally gone away from the subject line, which actually is quite refreshing! As we've said before, trades will be evaluated years from the date of them actually being made and can not be determined as far as "who won" this early!

The fairest question to ask would be, if you were a gm, would you rather have Kessel, or Seguin, Hamilton and Knight???

Before i finish, a huge thanks to Porkchop for one of the best lines in this thread!
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
I must ask you Beans, have you heard Burke ever say he was not satisfied with the Kessel deal?


Let's be real for a second. Do you really think Burke, yes, THAT Brian Burke, would EVER, for even the slightest second, admit that he made a bad move??? C'mon, this is Brian Burke we're talking about!!!

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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  15:21:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually he did admit he was wrong with Kris Versteeg when he traded him to Philly.

but yeah that Elite debate is rediculous but to answer your question when Jokinen was a first line centerman playing on an aweful team and putting up those numbers, to me he was elite. And Vanek is an elite goal scorer in the NHL today IMO.

Kessel is borderline, let's call him a natural scorer. He will be elite scorer after this season though I can bet with anyone he will break the 40 goals plateau this season. the signature ( since Beans never answered my offer) or the avatar. I take the injury risk at hand, if there's an injury and he only plays 40 games, so be it, I lose.

Edited by - Leafs81 on 10/24/2011 15:22:25
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Guest7346
( )

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  15:49:50  Reply with Quote
Must be a Habs fan asking that question. Why dont you ask what Mtl gave up for Gomez
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  15:58:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
phil kessel won the phil kessel trade. ask phil kessel
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  18:46:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As usual Alex you missed the point of the question but I would expect nothing less.

But you did answer the question. Burke has said he is satisfied with the deal and has never hinted dissatisfaction. Really its only up to him and Chiarelli to determine if they "won" the trade. If both are satisfied then they both felt they were winners. That is the ultimate goal for any gm making a trade, each gm must feel that they are getting what they wanted or a "win" if it must be called that.

What makes you think that Burke actually thinks he did not achieve his goal when he aquired Kessel. Is it just your opinion or do you actually know what Burke is thinking. If that is the case then you are truly amazing and I would like to hire you to work for me. I truly could use someone like you with your mind reading skills.
Everybody is entitled to opinion, much like the difference in opinion of an "elite" player. But if you can actually give me Burkes or anyone elses opinion without him himself stating as much then you are something special.
Like I said, we as competitors in life feel we must find a winner and loser for each situation, when the truth is actually there is situations where it is a win-win given what each person achieved its own interest in any deal.
I am sorry you can't find a way to see it that way but apparently you already know that Burke feels he lost the Kessel deal anyway.
Tell me Alex do you think that Burke achieved what his interests were when he aquired Kessel?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2011 :  20:59:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Porkchop - being "satisfied with the deal" and "getting what you wanted" are 2 completely different things.

There is no doubt that Burke got what he wanted - a young scoring forward. There is some significant doubt as to whether or not he is satisfied with the deal that it took to get said forward.

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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  03:45:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like your sensible response Nuxfan, and you may be right. Burke may indeed not be satisfied that he ended up giving up a 2nd overall pick. The other picks he may be more easily satisfied with it.
But when you take the deal is a whole, knowing that Burke made deal with the assumed risk he could give up a high draft pick, one must assume that Burke is satisfied.
Also, don't you feel an amount of satisfaction when you get what you want? Lets says you always wanted your favourite canuck jersey but you know the price may be high. You want it enough that you feel comfortable risking whatever the price is. You end up buying the jersey you wanted, you got what you wanted, you are satisfied with what you paid or you wouldn't have bought it and the vender wins for getting a good price too!
So don't you think that if Burke got what he wanted that he in turn also has a certain amount of satisfaction with the deal?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  08:55:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
So don't you think that if Burke got what he wanted that he in turn also has a certain amount of satisfaction with the deal?



I do not. Nor should he.

The Kessel deal is akin to me purchasing my favourite Canucks jersey, but instead of paying a set price now, I hand the vendor a blank IOU and he fills in the price at some later date, which I will have to pay. Now, I'm thinking that the jersey will cost a couple of hundred dollars, so I take it. In 6 months time, that IOU comes back with three thousand dollars on it, which I must now pay.

Am I satisfied that I got what I wanted? Hey, sure, I have a great Canucks jersey. Am I satisfied with the deal it took to get the jersey? No, but I made it so I have to live with it. But if I can go back in time, I don't make that deal.

I don't think that any GM would be happy with that deal, given the knowledge of the players now involved. Its not certain that the players would have been the same, but they would have been close - hey you never know, without Kessel that first year TOR might have finished dead last and gotten Hall. But to have seen a chance to draft one of the most solid prospects in recent years slip away, you know Burke can't be happy with that.
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