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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/29/2011 :  12:08:11  Reply with Quote
honestly i thought beans' predictions for potential on the 3 kids was realistic and probably even conservative. seguin could be a regular 85+ point scorer and hamilton could become the next pronger. kessel on the otherhand a good goal scorer i'll give him that could very well have already reached his potential ... so be happy for 25 - 35 goals for the next 5 or so seasons out of kessel leafs fans you're the ones that back this trade to the death.

on a side bet i predict seguin alone gets more assists in his career than kessel gets points.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2011 :  13:08:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4312

honestly i thought beans' predictions for potential on the 3 kids was realistic and probably even conservative. seguin could be a regular 85+ point scorer and hamilton could become the next pronger. kessel on the otherhand a good goal scorer i'll give him that could very well have already reached his potential ... so be happy for 25 - 35 goals for the next 5 or so seasons out of kessel leafs fans you're the ones that back this trade to the death.

on a side bet i predict seguin alone gets more assists in his career than kessel gets points.



Now, I wouldn't go this far. However, I would wager that at the end of both of their careers (Kessel and Seguin) if one asked a question of who was the better player, the answer will not be Kessel.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1040 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2011 :  19:04:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans you may very well be right in the fact that Boston wins this trade...no doubt Seguin is good, i can see this for myself already from his limited playing time. As for the other two, time will tell.

The only comments i don`t agree with is these premature arguements like....top 5 worst trades of all time....Boston wins in a landslide....

OK...lets say Boston comes out on top here...that still doesn`t mean the leafs received jacks**t...prolific ALREADY PROVEN goal scorers are hard to come by.
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/30/2011 :  07:13:21  Reply with Quote
prolific?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2011 :  08:57:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But Duke, no one is arguing that Kessel is not exactly the player you are saying he is. Geez. We all know exactly what the Leafs received in the trade. They got a one-dimensional (although improving) speedy goal scorer. Can we move past that already??

Again, it's about comparing value. That is why this could (and I said could as it premature to say it already is) be one of the worst trades of all time. Seguin is a corner stone player for any franchise. Dougie Hamilton is very close to that. Kessel was a top 5 pick and may have been touted as a corner stone when he was picked but he is not quite that. He is not an elite forward. He is not a top 5-10 player player in his position today and I wouldn't say he ever will be based on the other players in his generation. Seguin and Hamilton have the chance to be top 5-10 in each of their respective position.

Why is that so hard to comprehend??? It is too early to say today what the trade looks like and if it had to be rated today, 35 goals a year every year is worth more than a 3rd line centre and two players who have never played in the NHL. However, if Seguin and Hamilton both become the top 10 player at their position that many expect them to, it will be one of the worst trades ever and would be a landslide win for Boston.

No one is saying today, however I am one of the group that believe we will be saying that one day.
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Guest4271
( )

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  10:01:55  Reply with Quote
Kessel has how many playoff points with the Leafs. A big zero. Seems to me Boston is already winning this trade with Toronto. Some leaf fans don't even realize it.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  13:55:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow this topic is getting rediculous. Hamilton and Seguin top 10 in their respective positions?????

Kessel had 32 goals last season playing with Bozak at center and no real top six left wing. I mean at one point it was Joey Crabb, Bozak and Kessel. WOW what a line. Any guy scoring 32 goals with those type of linemates is a natural scorer. Kessel IS a natural scorer and not 30 teams in the NHL are fortunate enough to have one. In fact there was only 18 teams last year with a 30 goal scorer.

and Kessel was 7th in goals for RW and 10th in points for a RW last year.
The year before he was tied for 6th in goals playing in just 70 games and still didn't have a legit first line center. His point totals were not as good.

The year before when he played with Boston he was 3rd in goals for a RW. He had Marc Savard.

So of course Kessel is a talented player and he's a natural goal scorer. I would be surprise where 98 goals in the past 3 seasons would rank him.

Tell me when Seguin AND Hamilton are top 10 at center and defense respectively. And if they do... good for them but the truth is Kessel is not too shabby.

Also, when Burke made the trade nothing was guaranteed that the two top picks were gonna be second and 8th overall. At the time it was a risk to acquire a natural sniper that not every teams has a chance to have one.
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  15:34:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
what's harder to get... a natural sniper.... or a franchise defenseman, franchise centreman, and serviceable 2nd/3rd liner?

66 is > than 99
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Guest4038
( )

Posted - 08/31/2011 :  15:58:12  Reply with Quote
it's yet to be proven that either of the players Boston drafted from this trade will be "franchise" players. nice try though....

the only thing we know right now is that Seguin has huge potential, and Kessel can score 30 goals every year in his sleep. that's it!
right now the only thing that makes it lopsided is that Boston got 3 players, and Toronto only got one.
we haven't even seen the other two play in the NHL yet.

Boston won the Cup two years after making this trade. In their eyes, it was a good trade.
If Toronto wins the Cup with Kessel on the team (and perhaps with Burke still at the helm), then it'll be a good trade in their eyes as well.

who won the trade? that debate can go on forever....
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  08:36:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, the debate will not go on forever. There will be a time in the next 2-4 years where one will be able to objectively look at this trade and say who the winner and loser was. It is not unfathomable to think that both Seguin and Hamilton will go on to be top 10 players in their positions. Both were incredibly high picks and both were considered to be either the #1 or #2 rates player in their position in their entire draft class. As I said before, it doesn't always happen however 90% of the time a #2 draft pick goes on to be an All Star.

Frankly, it is vomit indicing to read the same argument about Kessel every 2nd post. I get it. He scores 30-35 goals every single year. He scores that amount of goals playing with Bozak and scored that amount of goals playing with Savard. Until he scores more than that, he is just that. A person can not say that Kessel is a better goal scorer than he is because he plays with Bozak in one breath and say that Seguin has not hit his potential in the other breath.

And just like @valanche said, what's more valuable: a 35 goal scorere or a POTENTIAL franchise centre, defensemen, and a 3rd line forward??

I guess math in Toronto works differently than the rest of North America. 3 to 1 is what it is.
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Guest4086
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Posted - 09/01/2011 :  12:57:41  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Frankly, it is vomit indicing to read the same argument about Kessel every 2nd post.


....just like it's vomit indicing to read the same argument about Seguin, etc., every 2nd post?

most of the arguments in favor of Boston keep swirling around the idea that there is more value in their draft picks because they have POTENTIAL franchise players. but yet at the same time these same people keep slamming those who argue in favor of the Leafs because their argument is that Kessel guarantees you at least 30 goals and has the POTENTIAL to be a 40 goal scorer.
how can potential be good a thing in Boston, but a bad thing in Toronto?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  14:13:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But the difference is that few Leaf fans have acknowledged the potential in Seguin and Hamilton specifically. They haven't acknowledged anything other than Kessel's side of the deal, continunously repeating 30 goals a year, 30 goals a year, 30 goals a year.

There are few things this NHL season could give me more rewarding than 30 gaols out of Seguin. I am not saying it will happen, but I hope for the entertainment of what Leaf fans will say then. If Seguin gets 30 goals in his 2nd season, then what???

And as far as this 'potential' 40 goals from Kessel, I completely disagree. He did not do that with one of the best set up guys in the entire NHL, he has not done that in his first 5 seasons. I've done the research and the vast, vast, majority of players who have scored more than 40 goals do it the first time in their first 5-6 season.

When does potential become reality?? 5 seasons of Kessel tells me the reality of the player he is. Not saying he will never be a 40 goal player, he might. But he is not a 40 goal a year guy consistently. He would have done it already.
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Guest9212
( )

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  05:16:33  Reply with Quote
Phil Kessel won this trade. A average player making big time money. He is smiling all the way to the bank.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  17:19:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Most Leafs fans on this site are saying that Seguin has potential to be a good centerman. Most are saying that the Bruins won the deal, I even said it and I still say it. What we are debating is that yes Burke gave a lot but he also got a really good goal scorer. It's not one of the worst trade in history because those trades usually involves a player that totally failed to meet the expectations. But right now Kessel is meeting the expectations.

If Knight, Seguin and Hamilton would be with the Leafs organization and Kessel would be with the Bruins, I'm sure Burke would never make that trade. At the time it was a risk but trades are always a risk, and it turned out that the Leafs had two awefull years for the years of the draft pick. Burke did overvalue his team probably, but the truth is the year before they got Kessel, they did finish out of the bottom five so everything was pointing towards a better season, but the Leafs had the worst season since the 80's and they finish second last, so the Bruins drafted Seguin. If that year the Leafs would have been out of the bottom five like many predicted we wouldn't even have this argument.

and Beans to say Kessel doesn't have the POTENTIAL to be a 40 goals scorer is just ignorant. Yes he didn't reach that yet, you even pointed out that he didn't reach that with one of the best playmaker in the league (Savard). That year he played 70 games, it was his third season and still scored 36, if that is not POTENTIAL then I don't know what is. He's 23 years old and scored 98 goals in his last three seasons. I wonder how many players scored that many goals in the last three seasons, plus he lost 24 games in that spand due to injuries.
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Guest8341
( )

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  18:10:38  Reply with Quote
how is this up for debate still, bruins won in a landslide
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2011 :  08:03:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leafs81, just a couple of things:

If this happened, if that happened, If Gretzky was never traded to LA the Oilers would have won 5 more Cup and the Leafs would have won in 93, right?? What could have happened in the past is irrelevant, what did happen and what might happen is what is relevant.

Again, for the 9 millionth time, no one is arguing Kessel's abilities. We all understand he is not a total dud. But that is not the measure of a trade in my opinion. The question I ask myself is if the value is equitable. In that case, today I say Boston wins by a slight edge. In the future, it could go down to be one of the worst trades in history. Not because Kessel sucks, but because Seguin and Hamilton would have turned out to be so good. What you are saying is like saying the Oilers got the better end of the Gretzky deal because Jimmy Carson had 49 goals and 100 points with the Oilers. That does not make the trade any better, does it??

Finally, it is not ignorant to say that Kessel might not be a 40 goal scorer. Do the math. History tells us something more than what assumptions tells you. The vast majority of players who score more than 40 goals in a season will do it in their first 5-6 seasons. That's not ignorance, that's historically data. I don't care if Kessel is 23 or 33. He has 5 years and 375 NHL regular season games of experience. What more do you think Kessel will show?? There are few players one can name who re-invented their play and/or significantly changed the performance they have in their careers between years 3-7. Kessel is 1/2 there already. Finally to the 40 goal point, when there is a guy who has the chops to score more than 40 in year and do it more than once, they can do it with just about anyone. Look at the multpile 40 goal guys and they often do it with different players and different teams. This broken record of Kessel hasn't played with talent and he is still not at his potential is so tired. He might get 40, but he is not a 40 goal a year guy.

Again, when does potential become reality???
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  07:48:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reasons I put the IF in there is because I'm trying to say that at the time it was an equal trade. Now due to the circumstances Boston won the deal by a slight edge (we agree?)

What I didn't get from your post is that you meant that IF Seguin and Hamilton do reach their potential then it would be one of the worst trade ever. I thought you were saying it was one of the worst trade ever BECAUSE they have the POTENTIAL to be top 10 in their positions.

I was using the IF to justify the past you were using it to justify the futur. We were both using the POTENTIAL (40 goals and top 10) to justify our point. Fair enough?

You make it sound like I was the only one who was talking with IFs and POTENTIAL.
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Guest9285
( )

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  08:49:33  Reply with Quote
There are no ifs when it comes to Seguin. Leaf fans or people who think Toronto won this trade will see this year when Seguin gets more points than Kessel why this trade will become one of the worst trades ever. Never mind the other two.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  20:51:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No Leafs, I was not assuming you were the only one talking in If's. I simply don't agree with many of your ifs. I don't think Kessel will be a year over year 40 goal guy. I don't think a single season or a few seasons of 40 goals would make this trade a win for TO.

On the other side, IF Seguin and Hamilton both are complete duds, TO does win the deal.

But I can't agree that it was a equal trade at the time. It was a huge risk and a huge over-estimation on Burke's part.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  11:04:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok now I understand your point of view and I agree to disagree.

How about that bet Beans???? You never answered???
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  13:19:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry Leafs81, I didn't see a bet anywhere. What was your wager???
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  15:01:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was in the Western Conference predictions topic. I predicted that 3 teams that made the playoffs last season would not make it this season. No teams in particular just 3 teams. You can look it up for details. here are the details.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Beans15


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Leafs81

I would say that Phoenix falls out way out and they will end last in the league. How can they compete with Mike Smith in net.

1. Chicago Crawford looks good they have good acquisitions and still loaded with talent. They go to the Stanley Cup final
2. Vancouver Still the team to beat in the NW
3. Los Angeles Doughty will have a better year and the acquisition of Richards makes them better then SJ
4. San Jose A bit of a drop Niemi wont steal many games and they will rely on him more now that Heatley and Setoguchi are gone.
5.Detroit Aging but still really good and deep.
6. Calgary They are deep out front and this year will be different for Boumeester.
7. Minnesota Heatley and Koivu together will gel and they have a good enough goalie to steal some important games.
8.Columbus Finally Rick Nash has a center Steve Mason bounces back
Fighting for it are Nashville Anaheim and St Louis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Wow. 3 teams (Columbus, Minny, and Calgary) make the playoffs that didn't last year. So PHX, ANA, and NASH are out??

How many bets are you making this year??? Keep me in mind.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok youre on Even though I really think Nashville could be the team to make me lose the bet. But heres the bet that I would agree with. Three teams in the western conference that made it last year doesnt make it next season. It doesnt have to be Nashville Phoenix and Anaheim that are out and it doesnt have to be Calgary Minnesota and Columbus that are in. The bet is at least three teams doesnt make it and three new ones are in. Lets leave the avatar option open for you and Slozo. The title ze have underneath that is posted as an automatic thats what will change. My worst team is the Canadiens so to humiliate me would be to say something like Carey Price is the best or Subban is way better then Schenn or simply Go Habs Go. Everytime I would post that would be written underneath. Actually you could chose what I should write. If you lose then I will chose something for you to write about the Canucks or Kesler as I think they are the team you despise the most or is it the Flames. Are you in?

Edited by - Leafs81 on 09/05/2011 15:03:56
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Guest2721
( )

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  17:08:47  Reply with Quote
Ill I heard all summer was how bad Boston ripped off Toronto. Not so bad a deal now is it?
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2268 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  17:40:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2721

Ill I heard all summer was how bad Boston ripped off Toronto. Not so bad a deal now is it?



i knew someone would bring this back,, Kessel looks amazing but he is not going to finish this season with 160 + points lets be fair.. if after 20 games he is still on pace for at least a 40 40 season then you may have a case, which is very possible

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  18:05:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes Kessel is off to a great trade...but i'm watching the Leafs/Bruins game right now, and Tyler Seguin looks very good! He's off to a great start himself, 8 points in 7 games.

Edited by - ryan93 on 10/20/2011 18:20:46
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Guest4955
( )

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  18:37:40  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ryan93

Yes Kessel is off to a great trade...but i'm watching the Leafs/Bruins game right now, and Tyler Seguin looks very good! He's off to a great start himself, 8 points in 7 games.


Yes but most leafs fan tend to ignore that others players on other teams are doing well just to prove their point.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2011 :  19:06:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't hate Kessel, but i have to admit that i've been disappointed in his success, JUST for the reason that we have here, that being, this thread being brought up yet again!

Wonder who're gonna be the first to bet who finishes with more points this year, Kessel or Seguin, as both are off to good starts!
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Guest1415
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Posted - 10/20/2011 :  22:09:24  Reply with Quote
god this thread is stupid
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Guest0010
( )

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  06:14:39  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans,

I think you've got it all wrong here. Sure, the trade of Phil Kessel for Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, and some other skater looks bad for the Leafs. BUT, that wasn't the trade.

The trade was for two first-rounders and a second-rounder. There is a very important distinction there.

If Toronto had finished in the bottom four that year, Boston's pick would not have been a lottery pick. They might have picked up an Erik Gudbranson or a Brett Connolly instead. I don't hear anyone saying "Phil Kessel for Erik Gudbranson and Dougie Hamilton is a bad trade."

Anyway, the point is, you can't use what happened as justification that it is a bad trade. Boston won many coin flips to get that 2nd overall pick. Toronto might not have finished in the bottom four, AND Boston might not have won the lottery. Plus, Tyler Seguin has to be available. All of those things are big IFS, and at the time of the trade, none of that was clear. But let's be clear: The trade was Kessel for two first-rounders and a second-rounder. NOT Kessel for Seguin plus plus plus.

Also, Phil Kessel is an elite forward. 30 goals a season and 70 points is an elite forward.

This trade wasn't as bad for Toronto as many people say. You just have to take Tyler Seguin out of the equation before you are able to examine it properly. Are you telling me Kessel isn't worth two first-round draft picks?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  06:57:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyway, the point is, you can't use what happened as justification that it is a bad trade .

This has to be the most rediculous statement I have ever read on this site. By a lot. If you can use what happened as justifiation than what is used? Phil Kessel score more than 30 goals in the teo season he was with Toronto but that was something than happened so you can not use that as justification either!

Seriously. The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade.


30 goals and 70 points is solid but I consider 40+ goals and/or a PPG+ season is elite. Kessel has neither yet.

Its absoilfy guys like that gives Leaf fans the stigma they have. Rediculous.



30 goals is not an elite scorer and Kessel has necrosis had 70 points.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  07:33:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Anyway, the point is, you can't use what happened as justification that it is a bad trade .

This has to be the most rediculous statement I have ever read on this site. By a lot. If you can use what happened as justifiation than what is used? Phil Kessel score more than 30 goals in the teo season he was with Toronto but that was something than happened so you can not use that as justification either!

Seriously. The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade.


30 goals and 70 points is solid but I consider 40+ goals and/or a PPG+ season is elite. Kessel has neither yet.

Its absoilfy guys like that gives Leaf fans the stigma they have. Rediculous.



30 goals is not an elite scorer and Kessel has necrosis had 70 points.




30 goals every year guaranteed MOST DEFINITELY IS an elite scorer.

Your other points have been repeated ad nauseum and are frankly quite boring.

So far it's 2 minor leaguers and a PROMISING center who looks like he is having a great start to the year, a center who has thus far had one year in the league where he put up 22 points and played well in the playoffs with one great game.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest2349
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Posted - 10/21/2011 :  08:54:07  Reply with Quote
should have known this trade will be deemed good from leafs fans everytime kessel goes on one of his scoring streaks.... we'll see where kessel sits 10, 20 40, 70 games from now
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Guest2260
( )

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  08:58:27  Reply with Quote
I wish people would stop it already with comparing this trade. This has to be the most over exposed trade in the history of Hockey!
I personaly beleive both teams won on this trade simply because both teams GOT WHAT THEY WANTED! end of story.

Toronto was looking for a 30+ goal scorer to help lead thier team in the future - mission accomplished!

Boason had a good team and was looking for a future prospect they had some emerging talent and potential cap problems they could shed - mission accomplished

I hate comparing Kessel and Seguin because that is not the point and never has been the point. Is Kessel a better player right now? yes! could Seguin end up being better in the future? maybe.
but that is not why you trade you trade to get a player or draft pick that fills a need and I think both teams adressed that. the only way you could or should call this trade a bad one is if Kessel was not filling the goal scoring need that Toronto was trying to adress and anyoine who thinks 30 goals is not valuable to the Leafs doesn't like hockey they just like to argue. in the same way anyone who wants to say that Boston didn't get a great draft pick from Toronto. PLease the question should not be is Seguin a good hockey player or should he be the trade was to get a good pick which Boston received. whether or not Seguin ends up being a good pick or not has mor to do with Bostons scouting than thier ability to work a good trade.

the trade worked for both teams it was by no stretch a bad trade for either there are hundreds of far worse trades in the history of the NHL. Leaf fans need to move on to something more interesting and Leaf haters need to find a better argument or an actual team to support. "The Leaf Haters" is not an NHL team.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  13:03:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ho Hum. Retired from fandom last June. Sitting here, feet up, cigar dangling from the lips and some whiskey by my side, AND, oh yes, youtube highlights of Game 2 of the semi-finals last year, where some kid made a little tiny contribution to, what is that thing called again, oh yeah, the STANLEY CUP that all us lunatic fans wait years and years AND years for our favorite team to celebrate.

Phil, score away. No question a very talented player. Guys here arguing the Leafs are winning this trade as of now, well, argue away. You GO guys! This Retiree concedes[b] - the Bruins are well behind in this one.

Ooooh well, back to my Cup-run highlights. Ah hell, while I'm at it, maybe I'll come out of retirement for a second or two and put on Thursdays Bs-Leafs game as well, just to avoid being called "totally out of touch" by the youngsters on here. Hmmm, wonder how the kid is doing so far this year.
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Guest0010
( )

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  13:33:05  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans,

"The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade."


I have to disagree. The trade was Phil Kessel for draft picks. Not Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

Let me ask you this:

Would you say that Boston would have won this trade?

Phil Kessel for:

Alexandre Daigle (1st rounder, 1st overall),
Stanislav Chistov (1st rounder, 3rd overall) and
Sebastien Wanstrom (2nd round, 44th overall)

??



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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  13:42:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

30 goals every year guaranteed MOST DEFINITELY IS an elite scorer.



I guess it depends on your definition of "elite", it is highly subjective. I have certainly never considered 30 goals in a season "elite". Especially from a winger that is constantly described as a "pure scorer".
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Guest6592
( )

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  15:47:09  Reply with Quote
I actually think that the point that Kessel was traded for picks rather than specific players is a fair one. I suppose it depends what you are evaluating.

For example, If I was to trade away Mike Fisher for a 7th round draft pick, would i suddenly "win" the trade just because the 7th round pick turned into Henrik Zetterberg?

Conversely, if I traded Ben Eager for 3 first round draft picks, would I "lose" the trade just because all three picks flopped and never made the nhl?

These are extreme examples, but they highlight a point. The reason I would think trading Fisher for a seventh round pick is a bad trade is because I have an idea what the relative value of Fisher is vs a seventh round pick, and that is a ridiculous trade. On the other hand, I would have an orgasm if someone gave me three first round picks for Ben Eager because I know the value of those picks relative to Ben Eager.

Personally, I think Burke is an idiot. I think so because I don't think Phil Kessel is worth 2 first round draft picks (that should have been predicted to be high picks) and a 2nd rounder. If these picks all were busts, I wouldn't suddenly think Burke was a genius; I would think he got lucky.

I guess the difference is this: if you are trying to determine whether a given move was an intelligent move by a gm, you have to look at the information that was available at the time the move was made. If you just want to determine which team ended up getting the most benefit as a result of the trade, you can look at what happens after, but it's all a crap shoot and doesn't tell you anything: it might give evidence that the move was a good move or a bad move, but its certainly not conclusive.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  15:53:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0010

Hey Beans,

"The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade."


I have to disagree. The trade was Phil Kessel for draft picks. Not Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

Let me ask you this:

Would you say that Boston would have won this trade?

Phil Kessel for:

Alexandre Daigle (1st rounder, 1st overall),
Stanislav Chistov (1st rounder, 3rd overall) and
Sebastien Wanstrom (2nd round, 44th overall)

??








How do you not see that as a completely absurd argument??

A little proof?? If you can use players like Daigle and Chistov, why not compare players like Crosby and Malkin or Ovechkin and Backstrom. Would Kessel be worth those players??

Geez, how hard is this to understand? These are the direct players involved. Sure, no one can say for certain if the Leafs would have picked these same players but they are the players the Bruins picked. It is not like Boston took the TO draft picks and traded them for other players. This trade will always be viewed as Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.


And to Mr Pot calling the Kettle Black (AKA Slozo). For someone to say that my argument is quite frankly boring, how is your ad nausum argument any different?? This garbage about 2 junior players and a guy with promise reaks of not only a rediculous bias, but also the most blantant statement of hipocracy to this point this season. Don't you think that many of us are sick of hearing your repeated argument???

Finally, I can't help but agree with Nux when he says that a 30 goal season is not elite. Kessel is on pace for a very fine season and if and when he cracks 40 we can start talking about elite. Until then, let's not confuse you hopes with reality.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  15:58:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0010

Hey Beans,

"The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade."


I have to disagree. The trade was Phil Kessel for draft picks. Not Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

Let me ask you this:

Would you say that Boston would have won this trade?

Phil Kessel for:

Alexandre Daigle (1st rounder, 1st overall),
Stanislav Chistov (1st rounder, 3rd overall) and
Sebastien Wanstrom (2nd round, 44th overall)

??




quote:
Originally posted by Guest0010

Hey Beans,

"The reality is the the trade for Phil Kessel has directly brought Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to Boston. Those are the players to be compared and exactly how someone can or cannot justify this trade."


I have to disagree. The trade was Phil Kessel for draft picks. Not Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight.

Let me ask you this:

Would you say that Boston would have won this trade?

Phil Kessel for:

Alexandre Daigle (1st rounder, 1st overall),
Stanislav Chistov (1st rounder, 3rd overall) and
Sebastien Wanstrom (2nd round, 44th overall)

??







Really? Cherry picking names out of a hat bolsters your point? Three similar draft positions, spread out from 1993 to 2010, cements your rebuttal?

Let me try, and I'll even keep it truer to what the Bruins had to do, 3 picks in 2 consecutive years;

Jordan Staal 2nd overall 2006
Carl Sneep 32nd overall 2006
Logan Couture 9 th overall 2007 - advantage draft picks over Kessel

Evgeni Malkin 2nd overall 2004
Dave Bolland 32nd overall 2004
Brian Lee 9th overall 2005 - another for draft picks

Eric Staal 2nd 2003
Ryan Stone 32nd 2003
Ladislav Smid 9th 2004 - hmmm draft picks again

Kari Lehtonen 2nd 2002
Janos Vas 32nd 2202
Dion Phaneuf 9th 2003 - still draft picks

That's in four scenarios, 4 years out of 5, still think draft picks are worth a Kessel?

I realize of course that hindsight is 20/20, but even in situations where the template is exactly the same regarding draft orders, would you trade Kessel for the groups mentioned above?

Don't even get me started on a 2nd, 5th and 44th overall combination from mixed years, as easily as you picked Daigle, Chistov and Wannstrom, one could choose, oh , I don't know, maybe a Crosby/Ovechkin, Vanek/Kessel(lol), Kulemin/Stastny combo.

Definately wanna keep those draft picks methinks.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2011 :  16:07:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FER, how can you say such a thing? Seriously, don't you know that Phil Kessel scores 30 goals a year?? That is what TO needed to they got it. What they had to give up doesn't matter.

Phil Kessel is an ELITE 30 goal scorer. Nothing else matters. Don't you know anything about hockey? Quit with these ad nauseum, and quite frankly boring statements.
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