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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2164 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  14:22:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Paul Kariya has just announced his retirement from professional hockey. Simply put, is his career Hall of Fame worthy?

Choices:

Yes
No

(Anonymous Vote)

leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  14:50:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a tough call I think. When comparing regular season stats to other inductees he should get in. You need look no further than this year's inductees to realize that he had a better PPG than they did:

- Joe Nieuwendyk - 1126 points in 1257 games
- Doug Gilmour - 1414 points in 1474 games
- Mark Howe - 742 points in 929 games (son of Gordie)
- Paul Kariya - 989 points in 989 games (dead even!)

In case you're curious, he had 39 points in 46 playoff games.

The guys has some serious credentials as well:
- 7 time All-Star
- 2 Lady Byng's
- 2 time Canadian Olympian
- Olympic Gold Medal
- Hobey Baker Award
- 2 100+ point seasons
- 3 90+ point seasons
- 6 80+ point seasons
- 1st round draft pick

And he and Selanne made up one of the deadliest lines in NHL history for several seasons with the Mighty Ducks. The two of them were the ones to put hockey on the map in Anaheim. Without those two hockey would have fizzled out and died in Anaheim within a few short years.

The only knock is that he didn't win a cup, but that is not completely necessary to be inducted (but can be the difference maker when a guy's career is on the fence - and his might be)

It's unfortunate that he suffered so many severe concussions, I am sure he could have racked up several hundred more points and maybe even won a cup or two if he stayed healthy (woulda, coulda, shoulda I suppose)
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  14:53:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMO, no.

He did not hit any of the "traditional milestones" that I would look for in a HOF-candidate: 1000 games, 1000 points, Stanley Cup, scoring title, multiple individual achievement awards, huge international non-NHL success. In regards to games and points, I understand that injuries likely played a part in him missing both 1000 games and possibly 1000 points, it is what it is. He also was awarded the Lady Byng trophy twice.

While he had a successful career and accomplished a lot, I don't know what he did that distinguishes him from other players of his generation that would make him hall worthy. He was a very good player that scored a PPG over his career, and in his 15 years had 3 or 4 excellent seasons and a bunch of good-but-not-specacular ones. Not enough.

Edited by - nuxfan on 06/29/2011 14:55:43
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  15:43:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ask Pavel Bure, and see what he think's
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99pickles
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Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  16:48:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I leaned towards "no' as well, and nuxfan's post convinces me so even further.

However, Kariya did have solid international success: Olympic Gold, World Championship Gold, World Junior Gold...Olympic Silver and World Championship SIlver. 5 medals in 10 years is as good as anyone can expect.
I suppose that was the silver (and gold) lining in advancing past the first round of the NHL playoffs only twice (Edit: actually 3 times in his career even though the one time he only played 1 game) during his entire career.

Strange Fact: Only once during his entire career did Kariya play in a winning playoff game beyond the first round.
(In '03-'04 Kariya's team, the Avs, did in fact win several games beyond the first round, but Paul's single playoff appearance that spring was a loss to San Jose in the 2nd round)

Edited by - 99pickles on 06/29/2011 16:50:34
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  17:42:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Ask Pavel Bure, and see what he think's



Its interesting you bring him up. When someone asks "should this player be in the Hall", I always compare them to Bure. Pavel Bure is, IMO, the best player not in the HOF. He's an excellent example of a guy that hit more one of the milestones I alluded to (great international record, Rocket Richard trophy 2 times, Calder trophy, over PPG in his career), but he has been left out of the HOF for some reason - perhaps too short a career, perhaps lack of a cup... could be any number of things. To get into the HOF for me, a player needs to have accomplished more than Bure did, and I don't think that Kariya has done that.

And before we go down the "Bure vs Anderson" fight for the best player not in the HOF, I concede that its close, but I give it to Bure just because of potential (had he been healthy as long as Anderson I think he would have beaten his numbers), and the fact that he never benefitted from playing with an all-star cast like Anderson did.
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  19:07:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Paul Kariya deserves to be a HOF candidate. I think he was a great hockey player who was a leader everywhere he played. His numbers are respectable enough to be considered.
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Guest8149
( )

Posted - 06/29/2011 :  21:04:08  Reply with Quote
There are a number of players who are on the fine line to missing or making the HHOF.

When I think of Glenn Anderson, Pavel Bure or Paul Kariya (who are not in the hall), I compare them to guys like Joe Mullen, Bernie Federko and Dino Ciccarelli who are Hall of Famers.

It's a close call, and basing it on certain statistical milestones is quite subjective. One could easily make the argument that either of the aforementioned threesome could either be in the hall or not.

That's what makes the Hall of Fame great. With only four players making the hall every year, there are bound to be great players on the outside looking in.

To answer the posted question, I think Kariya was a great player, and while I think he was a better hockey player than a number of Hall of Famers, I think his overall credentials leave him very slightly on the outside. Not to be wishy-washy, but he's a bubble player for the hall, so I could easily see him as barely in or barely out of the HHOF. No great disservice for him to be out, but just like Ciccarelli or Mullen, no great injustice for them to be in!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  06:53:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, I think he should miss the cut - and that is going by today's criteria.

Great player, but missing some milestones and accomplishments . . . and I do think Pavel Bure should be in the HHOF, btw.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  09:58:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

No, I think he should miss the cut - and that is going by today's criteria.

Great player, but missing some milestones and accomplishments . . . and I do think Pavel Bure should be in the HHOF, btw.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


Specifically what milestones is he missing? Remember it is the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame.

Nuxfan I had missed a ton of his international success and you posted it, so thanks.

Statistically he is actually better than most of the current members and statistically he is better than ALL of this year's inductees with whom he played against during his career. His team awards are numerous and he even has a few NHL personal accolades that most on this site preach about religiously. He was known to have Bure type speed and he helped to build a franchise. What moer do you want? No he doesn't have an Art Ross, Rocket Richard or Lord Stanley, but neither do many members. I don't know what the credentials are for induction (I'm certain that it's not a minimum of 1000 games Nuxfan - he played 989 games so I think you're splitting hairs here) but I do know that while he played he was always in the top few percent of the league and his numbers support that. Living in the west I watched him play a lot and he was an electrifying player. Perhaps you Easties didn't get to see him as much but that doesn't make him less of a player.

He deserves serious consideration and I think that most certainly when it's his time if he is up against a class such as this year's he'd make it in.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  11:22:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:

Ask Pavel Bure, and see what he think's




And before we go down the "Bure vs Anderson" fight for the best player not in the HOF, I concede that its close, but I give it to Bure just because of potential (had he been healthy as long as Anderson I think he would have beaten his numbers), and the fact that he never benefitted from playing with an all-star cast like Anderson did.



Except that Anderson is already in the Hall of Fame though. Unless you mean John Anderson??
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  11:26:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8149

There are a number of players who are on the fine line to missing or making the HHOF.

When I think of Glenn Anderson, Pavel Bure or Paul Kariya (who are not in the hall),



But Anderson is, in fact, a HoFer!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  11:49:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I completely agree Leigh, I think he should get some consideration as well. He was part of the elite 10-15 players in the NHL in his prime and he always showed up in International competitions.

I think some on here are looking at his recent past rather than his entire body of work. He deserves as much of a look anyone going in this season and definately compared to those guys inducted last year.
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2011 :  06:57:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8149

There are a number of players who are on the fine line to missing or making the HHOF.

When I think of Glenn Anderson, Pavel Bure or Paul Kariya (who are not in the hall), I compare them to guys like Joe Mullen, Bernie Federko and Dino Ciccarelli who are Hall of Famers.

It's a close call, and basing it on certain statistical milestones is quite subjective. One could easily make the argument that either of the aforementioned threesome could either be in the hall or not.

That's what makes the Hall of Fame great. With only four players making the hall every year, there are bound to be great players on the outside looking in.

To answer the posted question, I think Kariya was a great player, and while I think he was a better hockey player than a number of Hall of Famers, I think his overall credentials leave him very slightly on the outside. Not to be wishy-washy, but he's a bubble player for the hall, so I could easily see him as barely in or barely out of the HHOF. No great disservice for him to be out, but just like Ciccarelli or Mullen, no great injustice for them to be in!



dino's numbers had something to do with getting in IMO LOL
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blade
Rookie



Canada
193 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2011 :  17:27:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He should be inducted. He was a point per game player and played nearly 1000 games. That is amazingly consistent greatness! Not very many players can do that.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2011 :  21:26:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

He should be inducted. He was a point per game player and played nearly 1000 games. That is amazingly consistent greatness! Not very many players can do that.



Pavel Bure, Theo Fleury, and Eric Lindros are the only other players that averaged PPG or better over their careers that are not in the hall. Bure and Lindros are significantly over PPG in fact, while Fleury is over by 4 points.

Fleury is the only one in that group to have played more than 1000 games. All 3 of them had their careers cut short, however all of them (and Kariya) played a reasonable amount of time, 12-16 seasons.

Do you think that those 3 should also be inducted into the HOF?

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blade
Rookie



Canada
193 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2011 :  23:32:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes to all three in fact. Thanks for asking. However I am doubtful that Theo will because of his sorted history. All very deserving though.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2011 :  11:44:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:

He should be inducted. He was a point per game player and played nearly 1000 games. That is amazingly consistent greatness! Not very many players can do that.



Pavel Bure, Theo Fleury, and Eric Lindros are the only other players that averaged PPG or better over their careers that are not in the hall. Bure and Lindros are significantly over PPG in fact, while Fleury is over by 4 points.

Fleury is the only one in that group to have played more than 1000 games. All 3 of them had their careers cut short, however all of them (and Kariya) played a reasonable amount of time, 12-16 seasons.

Do you think that those 3 should also be inducted into the HOF?






Yes, yes, and yes. Yes also to Kariya. All these players brought something more to the table than an average player. They were all superstars in the league at various times of their career. Fluery was the smaller player that didn't know how to quit and found a way to win. Lindros was one of the most physically dominating and offensively gifted players of his generation. Bure was speed and scoring the likes of which were rare before his and just as rare after his time. Kariya was a mix of just about everything you would want in a hockey player but with a bit of a glass jaw.

Absolutely, all of these players are HOF worthy in my opinion.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2011 :  13:02:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

All these players brought something more to the table than an average player



well, so long as we're setting the induction bar high

I would put Bure into the hall, because he brought something more than the best players of his generation - more than PPG, 3 separate 50 goal seasons, multiple Rocket Richard trophies, Calder, all star, glowing international record. For me, the absence of a Stanley Cup is OK given those accolades.

Fleury is on the fence for me - as you say, he was the little guy that could, and a dynamic player who was PPG through 1100 career games, won a Stanley Cup, and perhaps even better, showed a love of the game by continuing to play well after he left the NHL at a high level. He will probably be left out because of his substance abuse problems and the way he exited the league, but I would not complain if he were elected.

Lindros and Kariya, no. Apart from getting lots of points and a single Hart and Lindsay season for Lindros, neither one did anything HOF worthy during their careers. And I don't personally think that PPG over your career alone is enough to get you in.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2011 :  13:34:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuxfan, what is your answer for all the players(specifically fowards) who are in the Hall today who are:

-less than PPG players
-played less than 1000 games
-not winners of individual awards
-not Stanley Cup winners
-less than stellar international records??

Cam Neely does not fit your criteria. Nor does Dino Ciccarelli or Pat Lafontaine. Should they not be in the Hall???

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2011 :  14:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem with looking at past inductees is that you can only compare them to other players that were nominated in the same year. The NHL will induct players each and every year, and will simply induct the best available based on nominations - whether they are deserving on a larger scale can be debated to death. IMO, for your list:

Cam Neely does deserve to be in the HOF, but only because he is largely credited with being the blueprint for the modern "power forward". If your play coined a hockey term that is still used today and a model of play that players continue to aspire to, you achieved quite a bit.

Ciccarelli - on the fence. He is considered to be the best player to never win a cup, and to produce at not-quite a PPG for over 1200 games is also remarkable, to go along with 2 50-goal seasons. It took him 8 years to get in though, so its not like the voting committee was completely sold either.

Lafontaine - yes he should be in, but again only for a couple of reasons. He had significantly more than PPG production over an injury-shortened career, and he holds the record for most points in a single season by an American born player (148), which is a significant hockey achievement. He was also at least a finalist for the Hart trophy.

It should be noted though, that Lafontaine and Neely were both inducted into the HOF during a time when it was criticized for lowering the bar due to lack of worthy talent. I'm not saying that Neely and Lafontaine were lacking in talent or undeserving, but they may have looked extraordinary vs the players that they were nominated alongside.

- Cam Neely was inducted in 2005, along with Valeri Kharlamov, who is one of the few HOF'ers that never played in the NHL. No other players were inducted that year.

- Lafontaine was inducted in 2003 along with Grant Fuhr and 2 builders. Only 2 players inducted that year.

I don't know which other players were considered for those years.

It should also be noted there are very few forwards in the HOF whose only significant on-ice achievement was PPG throughout their careers - the 3 you mentioned, and also Mike Gartner, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, and Michel Goulet as far back to the mid-80's. It is not a common occurrence.

Edited by - nuxfan on 07/06/2011 15:03:08
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2011 :  17:48:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan



It should also be noted there are very few forwards in the HOF whose only significant on-ice achievement was PPG throughout their careers - the 3 you mentioned, and also Mike Gartner, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, and Michel Goulet as far back to the mid-80's. It is not a common occurrence.



In support of your argument:

Stastny actually did more than just finish above Pt/Gm in his career:

--3 Golds and 3 Silvers in career international play (while representing 3 different countries, no less!)

-- Calder Trophy winner (the highest scoring Calder winner ever at the time, 109 pts.)

-- NHL Captain for 5+ seasons (the longest serving captain during the Nord's NHL lifetime)

-- Won some Golden Stick thing in 1980 (hey whatever, it's a significant international award right?)

Here's a stunning fact: Stastny bested 6 future Hall of Famers for the Calder in '80-'81: Larry Murphy, Paul Coffey, Dino Ciccarelli, Denis Savard, Jari Kurri, and Glenn Anderson!

Gartner: won 2 Canada Cups, 1 WJC bronze medal, 2 World Championship bronze medals, played numerous international tournaments, retired as the 5th highest career goal scorer of all time and is still one of only 6 players of all time to achieve 700 goals

Surprising fact: since his retirement 13 years ago in 1998, only 1 player has since passed Gartner on the all-time goals list (Brett Hull)

Well known fact: Gartner is second only to Phil Housley in most games played without winning a Stanley Cup.

Hawerchuk: 2 Canada Cups, 2 Memorial Cups (plus a Memorial Cup MVP), 2 World Championships bronze medals, 1 World Championships silver, Named to an NHL Second All Star Team, was CHL Player of the Year in 1981 , and was the longest serving captain for the Winnipeg Jets during their time in the NHL (for 5+ season which was slightly longer than Tkachuk's 5 seasons as Jets captain) not to mention numerous junior achievements and awards.

Strange fact about Ducky: Despite missing the playoffs just twice during his nearly 1200 game career ('89 Jets, '96 Blues), only once did he play for a team that won their second round match-up - that was the '97 Flyers squad that was eventually swept in the Finals by the Red Wings.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2011 :  21:50:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If we are comparing pedigree's, consider this.

Kariya was an NHL 1st team All Star 3 times.
Kariya finished runner up in the Hart in 97
Olympic Gold in 2002
Olympic Silver in 1994
World Championship Gold in 1994
World Chapmionship Silver in 1996
World Junior Gold
Seven Seasons as a Captain
2 (back to back) Lady Byng's
2-100 pt seasons.


Not sure what the criteria is, but that is a pretty solid resume for a pro hockey player.
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Guest7601
( )

Posted - 07/07/2011 :  23:27:48  Reply with Quote
Don't forget his Hobey Baker Award and his NCAA championship. Of course these are not pro awards but still relevant.

Also he went to game seven of the NHL Stanley Cup Finals. And he scored a truly epic goal in game six to help the Ducks make it to game seven. Only 10 minutes after getting knocked unconscious by Scott Stevens (we've all seen the footage of him laying motionless on the ice) he scored with a blistering flapper down the wing. I'll never forget it! That was his heart.

A small guy with Bure speed and Lemieux hands. I'd give him the nod if I were on the selection committee.
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Guest7601
( )

Posted - 07/07/2011 :  23:31:18  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15


2-100 pt seasons.



3 if you take into account his 99 point season (blah blah blah close enough)
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2011 :  14:14:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

If we are comparing pedigree's, consider this.

Kariya was an NHL 1st team All Star 3 times.
Kariya finished runner up in the Hart in 97
Olympic Gold in 2002
Olympic Silver in 1994
World Championship Gold in 1994
World Chapmionship Silver in 1996
World Junior Gold
Seven Seasons as a Captain
2 (back to back) Lady Byng's
2-100 pt seasons.


Not sure what the criteria is, but that is a pretty solid resume for a pro hockey player.



You forgot an NCAA title, 1 Hobey Baker award, and named to the NHL First All Star team 3 times.

He certainly appears to have the credentials!

Perhaps one of us should post the credentials of some borderline players that are both in the Hall and not in the Hall in order to get some perspective....
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2011 :  14:31:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry Guest7601, I didn't see your post

Also, I missed that Kariya was an NHL Second Team All Star 2 times... that means he was named to the NHL All Star Team 5 times! That about seals the deal.

Kariya Fun Fact: Although remembered mostly as a Mighty Duck, Kariya holds the Nashville Predators team record for most points in a season.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro

Canada
671 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2011 :  14:46:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

If we are comparing pedigree's, consider this.

Kariya was an NHL 1st team All Star 3 times.





Apparently I can't read today......
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 07/12/2011 :  11:59:12  Reply with Quote
i voted no. but the hit kariya took in the stanley cup final from scott stevens that knocked him unconcious and unable to breath was frightening .... he eventually gasped for air and later scored the game winning goal which is incredible. i'm not sure he is HOF worthy but paul kariya showed the most perseverance i have ever seen in that game alone.
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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
297 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  21:01:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4312

i voted no. but the hit kariya took in the stanley cup final from scott stevens that knocked him unconcious and unable to breath was frightening .... he eventually gasped for air and later scored the game winning goal which is incredible. i'm not sure he is HOF worthy but paul kariya showed the most perseverance i have ever seen in that game alone.



I also read in an interview that Kariya does not remember scoring that goal and I'm not even going to join the debate because I am very biased
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