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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
 Posted - 11/28/2011 : 17:09:21
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Max Pacioretty just got 3 games for the hit on chris letang.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h0eGCt2B3s
it was a blind side hit, and yes there is contact with the head, but is it the principle point of contact? Not really, the shoulder is pretty clearly targeted. This might have gone unsuspended if not for the broken nose, but I say 1 game not 3
Go OILERS Go!!!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2011 : 17:56:43
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| the head was the principle point of contact, and it was definitely blind side. This is a textbook example of "blindside headshot", a suspension of more than 1 game was warranted. |
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie
157 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2011 : 19:12:22
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For a habs fan it's just horrible to see that he got a 3 games suspension, while we all remember that Chara didn't get anything for his hit on Pacioretty
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2011 : 22:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Go_Habs_Go
For a habs fan it's just horrible to see that he got a 3 games suspension, while we all remember that Chara didn't get anything for his hit on Pacioretty
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
Sorry, but as your mother prob taught you, "two wrongs, don't make a right"!!!
Having said that, this is another one of those hits that looks like it became worse when Letang decided to shoot even though there's a good chance he saw the hit coming (as mentioned by the announcer). Regardless, these guys (Pacioretty in this case) need to understand, THIS KIND OF HIT CANNOT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED any longer! I'm not saying it was cheap, dirty, etc, but it's pretty clear now that the league will punish for this. You better make darn sure you're not gonna have ANY contact with the guy's head if you're gonna throw a hit. Otherwise, if you're unsure, you better not try to level a guy like this!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 04:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
the head was the principle point of contact, and it was definitely blind side. This is a textbook example of "blindside headshot", a suspension of more than 1 game was warranted.
i agree completly i thought it would be more like 1 game given Pacioretty is not known as a dirty player and Pacioretty did feel remorse imediatly after the thrid ended before the overtime period even started found Letang and apologized, but as said above by Nuxxy it is a text book blindside exactly the same as the Cooke Savard and The Richards Boothe hit therefore their is absolutly no question it is a suspension, as i said i would have gone with a game maybe 2 mostly because Deveraux of the Rangers got 3 and his hit on Dwyer i believe was much more obvious in an intent to injure and he recieved 3 games, but let`s call a spade a spade regardless of my bias towards the habs i have been a strong supporter of Shanahan`s tough justice and i am not about to change my mind just because my team and one of my favorite players is on the chopping blocks this time,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 04:51:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Go_Habs_Go
For a habs fan it's just horrible to see that he got a 3 games suspension, while we all remember that Chara didn't get anything for his hit on Pacioretty
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
i hate all the habs fans bringing this up, Stop two seperate incidents and 2 different guys dealing out suspensions, it`s embarrassing that this keeps coming up
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 17:47:20
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I believe it was a bad call on Brendan Shanahan. LIke you owe this guy letting Chara break part of his skull with no suspension. By now they should be even. On top of that, I'm not sure anyone remembered but Letang came back and got the OT winner. Suck it Shanahan
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 21:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Stamkos a Hab
I believe it was a bad call on Brendan Shanahan. LIke you owe this guy letting Chara break part of his skull with no suspension. By now they should be even. On top of that, I'm not sure anyone remembered but Letang came back and got the OT winner. Suck it Shanahan
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya
yeah you 're right because Campbelle decided not to suspend Chara last season Shanahan OWE's Pacioretty a free illegal check, god i'm embarssed for you, i hope that was sarcasm
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 04:05:58
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Forgive them Pasty, for they are Hab fans!
But that's cool about Maxy seeking out Lehtang and apologizing. I also like that he forgave Chara because Chara made an effort to contact him.
It pains me to say this (it really does ), but this Hab is okay! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 04:26:36
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Good call, good suspension, well done Shanahan. Love the way Shanny has handled these so far.
And I totally get that it hurts Habs fans to see the disparity between this suspension and the no-suspension on Chara last year . . . it's understandable. "Sore" about it, I get.
Complaining about it as unfair? Unh unh. Look, it's two different disciplinarians, and it shows how far apart Shanny is from the horrifically bad Campbell. I think we can all guess how long the suspension would have been on Chara if it had been Shanny giving it out, right? Right. So yeah - feel the pain of it, wish Shanny had come along sooner, fine . . . I get that. But, it's a new era now, it's a new standard, so we just accept that for what it is and move on.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 08:18:40
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I think this decision is beyond ridiculous. I have seen much worse go unsuspended. Clearly the point of contact was the shoulder. Even the annoucer changed his tune after reviewing the replay.
I mean, what is Max supposed to do? Give Letang a free shot on net? Is he then not doing his job? And perhaps Letang shouldn't be leaning over when he knows somebody is coming and protect himself a little better. Is there any point at which the player is responsible for himself anymore?
It was a clean hit, and if this was blindside, then Letang has no peripheral vision which I find very hard to believe. It was from the side. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 09:07:19
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Well said Slozo. I have watching this hit from every angle available and every speed available and I see the same thing. This is textbook, blindside, head the point of contact.
I am shocked, completely shocked, at how many Habs fans are pulling this crap about the hit from last year. I can't recall who said it but 2 wrongs don't make a right. The Chara on Max P hit from last year was one of the main reasons the NHL made the changes they did.
Making a mistake is one thing. Not learning from the mistake is another. The NHL obviously learned from their mistake but that is not good enough for Habs fans. The want their pound of flesh or they all of a sudden think the Habs should get leniency because they were wronged last season.
Suck it up and move on. |
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 12:22:05
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Imagine your favorite player getting hit(NOT SAYING PACIORETTY IS MY FAV PLAYER) and throws a hit like that and in the meanwhile just came back from a serious injury which the player who delivered the hit didn't get suspended.
GIVE THE GUY SOME SYMPATHY
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 12:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Stamkos a Hab
Imagine your favorite player getting hit(NOT SAYING PACIORETTY IS MY FAV PLAYER) and throws a hit like that and in the meanwhile just came back from a serious injury which the player who delivered the hit didn't get suspended.
GIVE THE GUY SOME SYMPATHY
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya
Dude, try reading what Beans just wrote again, or for the first time if somehow you missed it??? It's nothing to do with sympathy or lack thereof. I'm sure every true hockey fan, Bruin fans included, were not happy to see the seriousness of Pacioretty's injuries, BUT, it doesn't mean the league owes him a free hit by any means. Beans also mentioned that it's a new regime (Shanny) taking care of suspensions, probably partly to do with the mistake they made on the Chara / Pacioretty hit, and they got this one right. They've clearly corrected the mistakes they were making in the light suspensions given out in the past.
Yes, Chara prob should have been suspended. If he were to do something similar now, i'm sure he would be. Deal with it! Move on. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well said Slozo. I have watching this hit from every angle available and every speed available and I see the same thing. This is textbook, blindside, head the point of contact.
I am shocked, completely shocked, at how many Habs fans are pulling this crap about the hit from last year. I can't recall who said it but 2 wrongs don't make a right. The Chara on Max P hit from last year was one of the main reasons the NHL made the changes they did.
Making a mistake is one thing. Not learning from the mistake is another. The NHL obviously learned from their mistake but that is not good enough for Habs fans. The want their pound of flesh or they all of a sudden think the Habs should get leniency because they were wronged last season.
Suck it up and move on.
ehh hem beans not all habs fans i think i have been very adament on how embarrassed i am to be grouped together with all the habs fans that think this way,,,
and Odin the NHL`s rule is very clear, Pacioretty came from the blindside, (regardless if people think letang saw him or not) the principal point of contact was Letang`s head (even pacioretty doesn`t deny this ) Letang sufferd a broken nose on the play don`t tell me his nose is not part of his head! ,,, the rule is that simple, their are other ways to prevent him from takeing the shot than clipping him
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:54:25
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Fair enough Pasty. It's tough because for every Hab fan like you there are ten like them.
Not all Habs fans, most Habs fans.
Good point about the broken nose. How does that happen if Max P hits the shoulder. This might be another argument like Thornton hitting Perron in the neck last year. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Fair enough Pasty. It's tough because for every Hab fan like you there are ten like them.
Not all Habs fans, most Habs fans.
Good point about the broken nose. How does that happen if Max P hits the shoulder. This might be another argument like Thornton hitting Perron in the neck last year.
i almost said brought the neck argument up haha, i agree beano their are more like 25 for every one like me, hahah
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 22:34:41
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| In all fairness guys, Odin, or whoever it was, never said the "nose wasn't hit", but implied that the head wasn't the principal point of contact. This doesn't necessarily say that it was never hit! i argued the same thing on the Rome hit in the final last year. I'm not saying i agree on this latest one, but even clean hits can end up with contact to the head if the momentum carries the head into the hitter! |
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Guest4388
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Posted - 12/01/2011 : 00:59:45
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| games would have been enough.What I dont like about this is shanahan being so random..like malone on campoli getting nothing because they say campoli didnt protect himself,and then on the letang review they say "even though letang head was low and he know he was getting checked,you never expect a check to the head"..i mean wtf is up with that..and shanahan made a couple of other shady calls like nothing on lucic for his hit on miller |
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Guest4388
( )
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Posted - 12/01/2011 : 01:01:42
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Damn my post was cut short the beginning was:
Even though I'm a habs fan,I agree that the suspension was warranted,but 2 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2011 : 02:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4388
games would have been enough.What I dont like about this is shanahan being so random..like malone on campoli getting nothing because they say campoli didnt protect himself,and then on the letang review they say "even though letang head was low and he know he was getting checked,you never expect a check to the head"..i mean wtf is up with that..and shanahan made a couple of other shady calls like nothing on lucic for his hit on miller
I understand your Argument on this one but the way i think Shanny sees it is Campoli is skateing forwar and Malone is skateing forward Malone basicly comes straight for Campoli so if Campoli had his head up and was watching the play infront of him he would see Malone, Where as Pacioretty comes at Letang from the Blindside, but i agree i was expecting 2 games at the most ....
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2011 : 04:54:47
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Don't worry guys about Odin coming up with the ridiculous comment about it not being a headshot . . . he always posts after me only to completely contradict anything I just said. A contrarian, if you will - simply looking to get a rise out of people. A troll.
Or maybe he can provide us with charts and graphs and diagrams to show us how a magic shoulder changed direction three times and happened to break Letang's nose which was somehow located off his face if the head wasn't the principal point of contact.
THAT would be entertaining.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2011 : 12:46:58
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I'd like to see Pacioretty back on the ice ASAP Montreal got whopped last night. Although, I would like to talk and see about Pacioretty's replacment Louis LeBlanc. It's great to see him play in the NHL.
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Don't worry guys about Odin coming up with the ridiculous comment about it not being a headshot . . . he always posts after me only to completely contradict anything I just said. A contrarian, if you will - simply looking to get a rise out of people. A troll.
Or maybe he can provide us with charts and graphs and diagrams to show us how a magic shoulder changed direction three times and happened to break Letang's nose which was somehow located off his face if the head wasn't the principal point of contact.
THAT would be entertaining.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Thanks Alex. I'm glad somebody on here can read. Slozo, what is your freakin problem? What is with your massive ego?Why do you seem to think its all about you? I've made three or four posts since the start of the season, but I guess in your world that constitutes 'always.' And I guess in your world its all about you.
And what was that aboiut a 'magic shoulder?' Just say no to drugs Slozo.
Sorry to have a different opinion than you. I'm FAR from the only one. Is that how this works, dissenting opinion need not apply? That was NOT a blindside hit, he wasn't behind him. He came from the side.
I also find Pasty's analogy a little bizarre. The exact same arguement could be made about Letang. If he kept his head up, this wouldn't have happened. And coming from the side, as I said, there is no way Letang couldn't see it. A player of his skill has great peripheral vision. But what really bugs me, as another poster said, is the seeming randomness of Shanahan's decisions.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Sorry to have a different opinion than you. I'm FAR from the only one. Is that how this works, dissenting opinion need not apply? That was NOT a blindside hit, he wasn't behind him. He came from the side.
I also find Pasty's analogy a little bizarre. The exact same arguement could be made about Letang. If he kept his head up, this wouldn't have happened. And coming from the side, as I said, there is no way Letang couldn't see it. A player of his skill has great peripheral vision. But what really bugs me, as another poster said, is the seeming randomness of Shanahan's decisions.
The rule has been changed this year, "blindside" has been removed. Rule 48 is simply "illegal check to the head". The rule is quite simple:
"A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered."
So - hits to the head are simply not allowed, no matter what. Mitigating circumstances would include:
- whether or not the hittee put himself in a vulnerable position right before the hit. Letang was playing the puck and had just passed it, and had significant back pressure at the time of the play, so he did not put himself in any sort of extra vulnerable position
- whether or not a hit to the head was unavoidable - it was not, Letang was standing straight up and did not move his head down right before the hit.
In this case, the onus was entirely on Pacioretty to avoid that headshot, and he did not - Letang's head was up, but was finishing a play. The fact that his nose was broken makes the fact that it was a headshot pretty clear.
Had Pacioretty hit him squarely in the shoulder, or the chest, that would have just been a very good bodycheck. But he did not, therefore suspension. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:53:09
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I want to clarify that i feel, from the replays i've seen, that this hit was completely legal. I've done my best to slow it down and it looks to me like the principal point of contact is the head! I did mention that in some hits, the momentum results in the head being hit (after the initial contact is made at the shoulder or chest), but this one imo does not fall into the category.
Simply put, Pacioretty prob got what he deserved, and who knows, if Letang was injured even worse, he might have gotten an even stiffer penalty! |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:59:58
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Nuxfan, as has been stated, it was the folow through that broke the nose. The first thing hit was the shoulder, making that the principle point of contact.
This could be one of the disadvantages of wearing a visor. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 11:39:44
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The follow through broke his nose. The follow through. If the hit was to the shoulder, how did the follow through hit Letang in the head? How does that work again?? Might have to go back to that magic bullet theory.
Body checks, properly and legally executed, do not strike the head. Let's not confuse the principal point of contact with the inital point of contact. They are not the same thing.
This was a textbook illegal check. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 12:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Body checks, properly and legally executed, do not strike the head. Let's not confuse the principal point of contact with the inital point of contact. They are not the same thing.
This was a textbook illegal check.
Beans, while i do think this hit was illegal, i don't agree that all checks "properlay and legally executed, do not strike the head" at all times. There can easily be some contact with the head due to the momentum (usually the hittee) carried. IF the league wants to make ANY hit with ANY contact to the head resulting in illegal, we will def see less and less hitting. Even the cleanest hits to the shoulder or chest can end with the head making contact at some point to the hitter.
Again, i don't condone this particular hit or think it's legal. I can't say 100% for sure that the head was hit first but if it wasn't, it's 1/100th of a second after the shoulder and to me, that's close enough to call it a headshot anyway! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 12:33:45
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I call 'poppycock' on that Alex. With my understanding of physics and the rules of hockey, a legally and properly executed body check will never make contact with the head. I am not arguing how much head contact would or should be acceptable.
Please explain what is incorrect about that statement. I will easily and gladly provide a rule definition for any hit that would contact the head as illegal.
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 15:22:00
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After watching the video, The shoulder was the part of the body that was hit. When Pacioretty finished the check the edge of his shoulder hit the head. THE NOSE WAS NOT TOUCHED. Therefore, the head was not intentionally the first point of contact. The fall broke his nose. Pacioretty must have mentioned that to Shanahan. That was a 1-2 game suspension or a fine of around 100,000 $$$. Has anyone considered the possibility of a fine?
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 17:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Odin, I clicked on your link. It's not a video. It is a google search result. Not sure how I can stop that at the 40 second mark.
I seriously am not going to post on this topic after this. I will post links to two pictures below. The first picture will show a still frame directly before the hit.
+1.
I was going to post the exact same picture, the second 1 you posted. Seriously, Letang's HEAD is being pivoted around by Pacioretty's SHOULDER.
quote:
Originally posted by Stamkos a Hab
The fall broke his nose
Oh. My. God. Seriously? He broke his nose on the ice? In the video his face doesn't even hit the ice, he manages to use his forearms to break his fall on the way down. C'mon man, seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Theres the link. Freeze it at the 40 second mark. Shoulder contact first since that was the part of his body closest to Max.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRiqKUG0A8A
40-43 second mark, the hit in slomo - Pacioretty shoulder contacting Letang head. Letang head swinging sideways with impact. Nose broken. Headshot delivered. End of story.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Body checks, properly and legally executed, do not strike the head. Let's not confuse the principal point of contact with the inital point of contact. They are not the same thing.
There is an out in the rules regarding headshots that are "unavoidable". I believe the out is there for cases where the hittee does something last minute, unforseen, that cause the otherwise legal check to result in a headshot - ie, the hittee suddenly ducks down right before impact so his head is where his shoulder once was, and the hitter has no chance to dodge it. I think there was a hit from Edler in the pre-season on Hall that was such a hit.
Regardless, this is not that situation |
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HabFanInVan
Top Prospect
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 18:02:26
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When I saw this play watching the game on CBC, my initial reaction was "Oh s***, how many games is Patches gonna get?"
Then i went home and watched the replay a few times, and my thought was "Oh s***, I hope its not like 5-7 games".
Given that Max is a first time offender, I think that 3 games is very fair.
Did Max try to hit Letang in the head? I dont think so.
Did he? Yes
Is it am illegal play? Yes, but how the on ice officials could not see this is beyond me. I mean come on, where is the on ice call for that hit.
Was it worthy of suspension? Yes
At the same time, I would not have been surprised to see no suspension.
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Edited by - HabFanInVan on 12/02/2011 18:04:20 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 18:09:10
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| Even without getting too much into the question of whether this is a blindside head shot or not (personally I think it is but that is not my point here), I always have lots of trouble understanding the outrage over a 2 or 3 game suspension unless the infraction is just undoubtedly for a 100% clearly innocent play or the equivalent of something that should just be a two minute minor. How can three games be considered WAY TOO MUCH in the big picture of things when three games usually means the player will be back playing in a week or so? Even if you disagree with this call, how can you be THAT outraged? This is a "cultural mindset" problem in my opinion. In my humbler than your Mama's sweetest apple pie view, we should stop thinking as two or three games as a "big" suspension. It's nothing and arguably just a game or two more than what the penalty for fighting should be. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 22:35:11
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Beans....not sure if i should bother since you aren't commenting further, but i just re-read my post and realized i said i thought the hit was "completely legal" when i obviously meant "illegal" ( i did say the principle point of contact was the head). So, if that's where your "poppycock" bit comes from, i get it.
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Guest9504
( )
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Posted - 12/02/2011 : 23:32:29
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| "poppycock"? really? I see your poppycock and I raise you a "balderdash"!!! |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2011 : 06:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The follow through broke his nose. The follow through. If the hit was to the shoulder, how did the follow through hit Letang in the head? How does that work again?? Might have to go back to that magic bullet theory.
Body checks, properly and legally executed, do not strike the head. Let's not confuse the principal point of contact with the inital point of contact. They are not the same thing.
This was a textbook illegal check.
Garbage, follow through happens all the time. Again, are we just disregarding all responsibility to the players now? Is Max supposed to give him a free lane to the net? If the shoulder is out AHEAD of the head how is it possible that the head is the principle point of contact???
Hoiw it works again, is that the shoulder gets hit, slides under and the head comes forward. I am surpirsed I have to explain this. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2011 : 07:21:39
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Still, staying all he should've gotten was a fine.
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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3 games for Pacioretty 
