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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2172 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  08:58:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Where do you rank Rick Nash amongst the NHL's current power forwards?

Choices:

Top 3
4-6
7-10
11-15
16-20
21+

(Anonymous Vote)

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3599 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  09:43:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess "power forward" is a bit ambiguous - there are many players that get that label, but only a few of them are truly prototypical power forwards. I think Rick Nash is a prototypical power forward and ranks highly within that (fairly small) group - I said best 7-10. Power forwards that I would definitely rank higher than Nash include:

- Jarome Iginla - possibly the current poster boy for the position
- Corey Perry
- Ryan Getzlaf
- Milan Lucic
- Joe Thornton

After that, it gets a bit muddy as to who qualifies and who fits into this category.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4608 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  09:47:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How would you rank someone as a "power forward"?
I'm serious here . . . it's a totally open-for-debate moniker, which means that with so many differing opinions on what makes one a power forward, or who can be defined as a power forward . . . all of our answers would be based on totally different factors, making it a useless poll.

If you give me any kind of definition of what to rank a power forward by - goal totals, points, "level of physicality" if you don't want to get into hits/penalty minutes . . . then ok, I'll vote in your poll.

But without that, my vote is meaningless, because I can guarantee Beans' definition of what a power forward is different than Alex's or Fat Elvis' definition of what a power forward is, and all of their defnitions might be different than mine.

My definition:
- goal scorer (should average 15+ goals a season)
- should be large in size (6', 210ish + lbs if not 6'2" or more)
- should score many if not most goals on the rush, close to the net / in front of the net
- should be fairly physical (identifiably a guy who is not shy about going into the corners, can fight if necessary, will throw a decent amount of checks)

Current look at the top 40 forwards in scoring, and me picking out who is a "power forward" by my definition:

Malkin
Lupul
Kovalchuk
Tavares (not sure?)
Neal
Toews
Hartnell
Thornton
Couture
E.Staal
Benn
Perry
Iggy

To give you an idea of who I would include.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4608 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  10:52:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And to further expound on my (and nuxfan's - great minds think alike, eh?) point,

I'd have to further rate / give weight to how each forward ranks for goals, toughness, size, ability to control a game, hard charging-going to the net ability.

Iginla, Perry Thornton . . . yep, I'd put them as prototypical power forwards ahead of Nash - just like these guys that I would also put ahead of Nash: Malkin, Kovalchuk, Hartnell, Eric Staal.

And, I'd put guys not in the top 40 point getters ahead of Nash right away too - Crosby, and Ovechkin.

And I'd put the "not-so-typical" but "barely" power forwards here also above Nash:
Lupul, Tavares (if included), Neal, Toews, Benn, and maybe even Smyth.

Then it gets real close . . . so, among power forwards, RIGHT NOW, I rank Rick Nash in the . . . top 20, maybe just barely the top 15.

Now, if I rank Nash with the guys ranked around him in terms of value versus salary . . . Nash is probably right at the very bottom of that list, below even Ovechkin with his max salary.

He's good, but not great.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest6498
( )

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  12:37:43  Reply with Quote
For me a power forward is a big bodied offensive minded forward that, like a sniper, plays in the circles but primarily drives hard & crashes the net, plugs up the slot looking for defections/rebounds/garbage goals & also plays in the dirty areas.

With all due respect Slozo and no offense intended, I personally see much of your definition describing a 2 way player (Kesler etc) more so than the power forward. This is not to say you're wrong, by all means you're not. This only goes to further highlight both your & nuxfan's point that pinning down the Power Forward is difficult and ranges from person to person.
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Guest7961
( )

Posted - 02/23/2012 :  12:50:17  Reply with Quote
Ogden Nash ranks high. The automobile also above average.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4608 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2012 :  07:03:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6498

For me a power forward is a big bodied offensive minded forward that, like a sniper, plays in the circles but primarily drives hard & crashes the net, plugs up the slot looking for defections/rebounds/garbage goals & also plays in the dirty areas.

With all due respect Slozo and no offense intended, I personally see much of your definition describing a 2 way player (Kesler etc) more so than the power forward. This is not to say you're wrong, by all means you're not. This only goes to further highlight both your & nuxfan's point that pinning down the Power Forward is difficult and ranges from person to person.



Define big bodied - height? Weight?
Define offensive minded?

All I am saying is . . . you say I am looking for two way forwards, but I am not - I didn't include Kesler, in fact, and wouldn't. He doesn't fit my strict definition (strict compared to anyone else's I have seen so far, which is a vague summary of "qualities").

The thing is . . . and it's natural to do, to place more value on players for one reason or another, and overlook other players that you don't know as well, or don't 'consider' to fit into a pre-conceived category.

Which is why we need stricter definitions.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3599 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2012 :  08:17:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Guest6498

For me a power forward is a big bodied offensive minded forward that, like a sniper, plays in the circles but primarily drives hard & crashes the net, plugs up the slot looking for defections/rebounds/garbage goals & also plays in the dirty areas.

With all due respect Slozo and no offense intended, I personally see much of your definition describing a 2 way player (Kesler etc) more so than the power forward. This is not to say you're wrong, by all means you're not. This only goes to further highlight both your & nuxfan's point that pinning down the Power Forward is difficult and ranges from person to person.



Define big bodied - height? Weight?
Define offensive minded?

All I am saying is . . . you say I am looking for two way forwards, but I am not - I didn't include Kesler, in fact, and wouldn't. He doesn't fit my strict definition (strict compared to anyone else's I have seen so far, which is a vague summary of "qualities").

The thing is . . . and it's natural to do, to place more value on players for one reason or another, and overlook other players that you don't know as well, or don't 'consider' to fit into a pre-conceived category.

Which is why we need stricter definitions.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Based on your definition earlier slozo, Kesler actually is a power forward - at least 15 goals per season, 6'2/202, scores most of his goals in dirty areas (getting beat up in front of the net on PP, on rushes to the net), very physical player on and off the puck and even fights on occasion. However, I would not call Kesler a power forward either.

Which really points to how hard it is to define this role. Wikipedia took a stab:

quote:

In ice hockey, power forward is a loosely applied characterization of a forward who is big and strong, equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals and would most likely have high totals in both points and penalties.[1] It is usually used in reference to a forward who is physically large, with the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners, possesses offensive instincts, has mobility, puck-handling skills,[2][3] may be difficult to knock off the puck[4] and willingly engage in fights when he feels it's required.[5] Possessing both physical size and offensive ability, power forwards are also often referred to as the 'complete' hockey player.



Not bad - still pretty vague, but at least its a starting point. The correlation between points and PIM's is interesting, and would begin to differentiate some players. The same article lists the following prototype players for this position:

- Cam Neely (who's style of play helped to coin the term)
- Clark Gilles
- Jarome Iginla
- Kevin Stevens
- Mark Messier
- Joe Thornton
- Ryan Getzlaf
- Milan Lucic

From that list, you can get a pretty good idea of what would embody a power forward.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8191 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2012 :  08:53:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is a very difficult definition. My definition is a forward who uses size and strength as their primary physical tools. To simplify things even further, I define fowards as only two types. Power Forwards and Skill/Speed Forwards. They fit into one of those two catagories and can not be in both. Even if there is a faster, big player he is still one or the other. I don't think a power forward needs to score goals to be defined as a power forward. For example, Joe Thornton uses his size and strength (not speed) but he does not score goals.

As such, I find it very difficult to answer this question as posed. I would like to answer this simply.

Where would Nash likely play on most NHL teams:

By that definition, he would likely be a 1st line player on almost every team in the NHL. He would likely be on the top line PP and his job would be to score goals. That said, he is a top 90 forward player in the NHL.

Now, once that is established, where does he rank in those 90 players. For this, I would take a closer look at the other players in that top 90. When I see that list, there are likely around 60 players in the NHL that will be at or around 30 goals. The list is narrowed again.

I now look at that list of 60 players and see how many of those players bring more to the table than Nash. Be it more goals, more assists, better defensive play, etc. With that, I would rank Nash outside of the top 30 but on the higher end of the end 30.


So, in the fewest words possible, I would rank Rick Nash as a top 30-45 forward in the NHL today.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4608 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2012 :  09:27:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't believe it,

But here I am agreeing with Beans on this one. I think it's way more appropriate to rank Nash among forwards, as opposed to "power forwards", whose numbers could vary greatly based on definition.

Who knew Kesler was over 200 pounds?

Agree with Beans - top 50 forward, but probably outside of the top 30. And within that group, since they are so close, as a team, I might rank him higher or lower based on needs - whether it's a stronger defensive player, more size/toughness needed, more goal scoring, playmaking, or position needed.

For the Leafs for instance, he'd be right around that top 30 to 35 mark for sure - he has experience, grit, size, leadership. goes hard to the net, will score 30+ goals. But, not a centre, and is average defensively (not a big deal at all, but just saying).

Problem is that damn cap size and length.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise . . . size DOES matter.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5812 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2012 :  12:11:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Who knew Kesler was over 200 pounds?


Well, at 202, he's barely in your mold! And after an intense game like last night, he could very well be sitting at 199

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise . . . size DOES matter.





Damn you Slozo, you're starting to sound like my wife!


The criteria is a tricky thing, but if you asked me to name a power forward, Cam Neely is the first to come to mind. Others would be Tim Kerr (did anyone get more goals from in front of the net than this guy?), Mark Messier, Todd Bertuzzi (in his prime) and Milan Lucic is a pretty good example today. A little less skill and finesse than some of the others, but more grit and pure toughness.
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