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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2012 : 07:59:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Statman
Alex, I generally respect your opinions and think you are one of the good ones on this forum. I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this one.
Statman, i appreciate that, although our disagreement is really just our opinions so no sweat. We won't know for a few years what sort of potential Hodgson fulfills, so we'll have to be patient and one of us can gloat then! lol 
Beans, if anyone traded a Ferrari for an orchid, i'd be absolutely horrified. Now, if you're talking about an "ORCHARD", as in the apples you so speak of, that could be different!  Unless of course that Orchid is time spent with Carre Otis, from the movie "Wild Orchid", then maybe the deal would be a little more fair. Prob aging myself with a reference to a movie from the 80's, lol. Btw, just buggin' ya, not meaning to pick at your english, it just seemed kinda funny, a car for a flower. 
I still think what people are missing here is the fact that the trade was made in an effort to allow AV to ice the lineup / lines (types of lines) he wanted for the playoffs. I continue to read Canuck fans on all sorts of articles, boards, etc crying about where our scoring will come from now, esp if Kesler or Sedin gets hurt? Well, i got news for ya, if either of those guys gets hurt, it makes things far more difficult to win, with or without Hodgson.
Slozo, yes, Hodgson has produced some really nice numbers, better than those mentioned perhaps, but lets not forget that he does get 2nd PP time. Do those others get that? I'm not being a smartass here either, i don't know the answer, but i do know he's got almost 1/3 of his points on the PP.
I'll be the first to admit, if i was building a team from scratch, i'd pick Hodgson over Kassian any day! But, when your team has two guys that do what he does, better than he does at this point in time, AND you're in a position whereby you have a "window of opportunity" to win the grand prize, you make trades to address your needs and that's exactly what this deal was. I still think that Kassian will play only a small role, likely on the 4th line, just to add a bit of grit and toughness to the Canucks to keep the other teams honest. Again, it was more about changing the dynamics of the team's 3rd line. Hodgson simply wasn't what they needed / wanted at that position, partially because he currently is a liability defensively, as shown by the fact he was rarely on the ice, especially for defensive zone faceoffs, late in close games.
Here's the most important thing to me though. While i don't "expect" the Canucks to win the cup this year, i think this move increases their chance, therefore, this trade is good in the short term. IF, and it's a big IF, the Canucks win the cup (even just one!!!) in the next 3 -4 years, i could care less if Hodgson goes on to break most of Grezkey's records! That's 100% the truth. I think this city and the Canucks fans (well, us good ones anyway ) have suffered long enough that one cup (please, no "two girls..." jokes  ) at this point, would satisfy me a lifetime!!! Heck, i'd trade Schneider, Hodgson, Schroeder, the Sedins, Kesler, Edler, their wives, my Ferrari (oh wait, i don't have one, but i could prob get an orchid) and i'd even consider throwing in Stanley Park, for a game 7 win last June!
THAT'S how badly i want it!  |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 09:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans,
Please compare apples to apples here.
To be fair to the other players you mention, Hodgson also gets second line PP minutes (in fact pretty much owned that second PP unit). I don't think many (if any) of the other "3rd line" players you mentioned get any sort of time on the PP. It is an advantage for Hodgson.
EDIT - ah, I see Alex mentioned the same. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 03/01/2012 09:54:54 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 10:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
EDIT - ah, I see Alex mentioned the same.
What? You don't read my stuff? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 11:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans,
Please compare apples to apples here.
To be fair to the other players you mention, Hodgson also gets second line PP minutes (in fact pretty much owned that second PP unit). I don't think many (if any) of the other "3rd line" players you mentioned get any sort of time on the PP. It is an advantage for Hodgson.
EDIT - ah, I see Alex mentioned the same.
PP points
Cody Hodgson - 5 ppg, 5ppa - 10 points
David Jones - 3ppg, 3ppa - 6 pts (2nd pp unit I believe)
Cal Cutterbuck - 2ppg, 1ppa - 3 pts (2nd pp unit I imagine)
Ryan Jones - 2ppg, 3ppa - 5 pts(plays on second pp unit)
Curtis Glencross - 6ppg, 3ppa - 9 pts (I think he plays on 1st unit)
You know guys, you can also look this stuff up . . . 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 11:04:18
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And to add to what I just posted,
Getting put on any power play unit - ESPECIALLY on a Canucks team which is one of the top teams in the league, and certainly one of the top pp units - is EXACTLY an indication of skill level, and how good a player is. Not always, but usually, the best players get to play on the power play.
I would argue that Hodgson could be on the first unit of many power plays in the league. He may even work himself onto Buffalo's 1st unit, in time, and he might even score a lot of points on their power play because he is a talented player.
Will you then complain that he gets all his points on the power play?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 13:31:30
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I would like to reiterate my original point about Hodgson, as I see we got somewhat sidetracked.
Beans, you are trying to justify to me why Hodgson wouldn't work in Vancouver over the long run, but that is a fact that I had already admitted to in my first post.
I do see the need for the move to acquire a big power-forward winger, as well. My problems with this deal are A) the timing of it (I feel the team would have ben better served doing this move at the draft) and B) the fact that we got somebody that hasn't taken that initial first successful step into the league as Cody has.
I have nothing against Kassian, and I LOVE the acquisitions of Pahlsson and Gragnani.
As for the idea of Alex selling his soul and the entire Canucks team to win the cup, I have a warning for you Alex; Championships are the greatest thing in the world when they happen, but the light dims quickly and they become quite fleeting. I recall the Florida Marlins winning a world series and then selling off all their players, and then just a couple years later that championship wasn't even mentioned in their media guide. What a waste!
My point is don't ignore the trip while you are waiting to reach the destination.
quote:
Simply put, if a player's junior career had any meaning what so ever, guys like Doug Wickenheiser, David Gilbert, Brad Patrick, and Patrick Sound would have been the best players in the history of the NHL. Never heard of them before??? Use google. I don't have time to educate.
PS- Beans, I am well aware of Wickenheiser, but I was hoping you have time today to educate me as to who David Gilbert, Brad Patrick, and Patrick Sound are. (Being as they are fictional, and all) |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 13:46:25
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Slozo, please don't tell me you are trying to say that Ryan Jones or Cal Clutterbuck on the 2nd line PP in Edmonton or Minnesota is even close to the comparison of the Canucks 2nd line in terms of talent.
Secondly, if you are comparing straight up points then of course Hodgson is the cream of that crop. However, who is the cream of that crop when it comes to defensive play or physical play?? I would say that Hodgson is likely the bottom of that list.
So, do you want a guy who will get you 40ishpts on the 3rd line and not play defense as well as a guy who will get you 35ish pts on the 3rd line AND shut down the other teams top line??
The Canucks don't need a Ferarri, they need a Combine. They want to harvest their Orchard (Alex, that's is how many brain works at 6am without coffee. Nicely done. I totally deserved it).
I except the challenge of, "I dare you to find anything remotely compareable this year." Here you go:
Viktor Stalberg - 16G, 16A - 32 pts - 13:33 MPG
Is that enough of anything remotely close or should I keep going?? There are around 10 guys in the NHL that are around the same minutes and scoring close to the same amount. Granted, Hodgson has more points in fewer minutes, but they are more than remotely comparable. Furthermore, not all of these guys are playing on Vancouvers PP. Other guys like Arnott, McGinn, and Miller are comparable in goals, assists, points, or both and playing fewer minutes. They are not as high as Hodgson, but more than close enough to be considered 'remotely' close. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 14:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Slozo, please don't tell me you are trying to say that Ryan Jones or Cal Clutterbuck on the 2nd line PP in Edmonton or Minnesota is even close to the comparison of the Canucks 2nd line in terms of talent.
Secondly, if you are comparing straight up points then of course Hodgson is the cream of that crop. However, who is the cream of that crop when it comes to defensive play or physical play?? I would say that Hodgson is likely the bottom of that list.
So, do you want a guy who will get you 40ishpts on the 3rd line and not play defense as well as a guy who will get you 35ish pts on the 3rd line AND shut down the other teams top line??
The Canucks don't need a Ferarri, they need a Combine. They want to harvest their Orchard (Alex, that's is how many brain works at 6am without coffee. Nicely done. I totally deserved it).
I except the challenge of, "I dare you to find anything remotely compareable this year." Here you go:
Viktor Stalberg - 16G, 16A - 32 pts - 13:33 MPG
Is that enough of anything remotely close or should I keep going?? There are around 10 guys in the NHL that are around the same minutes and scoring close to the same amount. Granted, Hodgson has more points in fewer minutes, but they are more than remotely comparable. Furthermore, not all of these guys are playing on Vancouvers PP. Other guys like Arnott, McGinn, and Miller are comparable in goals, assists, points, or both and playing fewer minutes. They are not as high as Hodgson, but more than close enough to be considered 'remotely' close.
But Beans, the question isn't whether the Canucks need a Ferrari or a combine . . . it's whether you trade your Ferrari for a combine.
I agree that Hodgson is "misplaced" and misused on that third line, but hey - if you're not going to get back true worth, then why make the deal if it might only help you long term (in the Canucks situation).
That Stalberg reference hurts even more since he's an ex-Leaf, ouch. Fair enough, and good on you to pick him out. But you will concede at least that there are few and far in between of that calibre (and I'll argue long and hard on Hodgson being twice the talent Stalberg is).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 15:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I agree that Hodgson is "misplaced" and misused on that third line, but hey - if you're not going to get back true worth, then why make the deal if it might only help you long term (in the Canucks situation).
I think it should be clear that this deal is supposed to help now - Kassian and Gragnani will be with the team for the rest of the season and playoffs. Hodgson was not going to be traded for a pure prospect.
The question really is - what do the Canucks get from Kassian now? They get 3 things:
- a very solid body that can be physically punishing and strong, on the 3rd line. Kassian will pretty much take Hodgson's place on the 3rd line, and he instantly turns that line from a pretty good scoring threat to a hard physical checking line (along with Malhotra and Hansen/Higgins). They need that this year, and they are going to get it.
- a promising young prospect power forward. He's not going to contribute much on the scoresheet now, but if he lives up to even half potential this trade will be a good one for the Canucks.
- cap relief - something that is not talked about much but is of serious concern for a team that spends most of its days a few hundred thousand from the cap. Kassian and Gragnani earn a combined 1.3M, while Hodgson was nearly 1.7M in salary+bonuses that he'll hit this year. Gragnani is RFA next year, and the team expects that they'll resign him for about the same. Kassian is in the first year of his EL deal, so 2 more years @ 850K. Hodgson on the other hand, will be in the last year of his EL deal next year, and will almost certainly command a raise - if he keeps going like this, 2.5-3M a year in his next deal would not be unreasonable, and it could be more depending on how his deal goes next year. After next season, the Canucks will still have a good prospect on an EL deal while they spend their cap dollars on Sedin's, Kesler, Luongo, etc - and will be able to keep this group together.
While its nice to think that Hodgson could have fetched a more established player, the reality is that VAN has so little cap wiggle room that taking on even a 1.5M salary this season would have likely meant another move at the deadline. Kassian was good in that a) he fills a need for the Canucks, b) he's a highly touted prospect and on an EL deal for 2 more years, and c) he has NHL experience and can contribute in some way right now. |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 15:41:52
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| Damn, I really hate the new economics of the NHL with it's salary cap. Don't get me wrong, it's great for the health of the league and that's the most important thing, but every time you want to do trade talk you need a calculator and a spreadsheet! Lol. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 15:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I agree that Hodgson is "misplaced" and misused on that third line, but hey - if you're not going to get back true worth, then why make the deal if it might only help you long term (in the Canucks situation).
Slozo, unfortunately not every trade is equal, especially the moment it is completed. Usually, one side looks to have gotten the better of the other team. BUT, time will tell as with any trade. Now, as i've stated before, i don't doubt for a second that Hodgson will be the best player in the end in this deal, but when trading for a team's needs, especially a contending team, you often have to over pay for the asset you require. I don't doubt for a second that Gillis was asked about Hodgson in any deal in which he tried to aquire his grit. Rumoured deals for Ott, Gaustad, Neil, Downie type players likely all had opposing GM's asking for Hodgson. Gillis chose to go with a young guy who, while not as proven in the role as those others, has a better upside in future talent. The other key here is Pahlsson. If that hadn't been able to lock him up, i don't think they do this trade and perhaps wait till the draft to move Hodgson. It was all about changing the look / role of the 3rd line.
There's also been a ton of talk around here as to whether or not Hodgson's camp requested a trade at any point. His agent adamantly denies it, though admits they'd been asking for more ice time, and MG stated that he wouldn't address stuff like that that goes on behind closed doors (Canucks policy). I don't doubt he'd have asked at some point, maybe even this summer, but i can't imagine him desperately wanting to go anywhere now when they've got a legitimate shot at the cup, AND he's been contributing.
My biggest fear post-trade deadline, is that Pahlsson flops and Malhotra or Lapierre, two guys the Canucks already had on the roster, end up centering the 3rd line. Then again, if that happens, what would they have done with Cody at that point anyway?
Snagged some tickets through a customer of mine for Saturday's Vancouver / Buffalo game! Should be entertaining and will be interesting to see how Hodgson and Kassian play for their new teams against their old ones! |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 15:59:34
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| Well, Pahlsson's a checker, so it will be more difficult for him to flop, particularly in a span of about 20 games. And though it's being looked at as a rental, I would think that they have a good chance at retaining him, especially with him being such close friends of the Sedins. Hopefully he does work out and play as well as he did in Anaheim's run. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 16:12:23
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Statman, love the spreadsheet / calculator comment! You know how many times i listen to guys calling in to the radio station proposing trades that would never work??? "Why didn't we just trade Hodgson, Shroeder and a couple picks for Rick Nash"??? Yeah, like that would work. I don't even need the calculator for that one!
As for Pahlsson, i simply meant that he has to play his role well, considering we had a few other options like Lapierre and Malhotra who could do a similar role, AND chip in more offense most likely. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 19:24:23
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Hey Slozo, a couple of things:
The analogy of the Ferrari vs the Combine is a very good comparison to this situation. The question isn't would you or would you not, it's what is the best vehicle for the situation? You would not put a Combine in a street race nor would you harvest your wheat crop with a Ferarri. The vehicle has no value, it's the situation that creates the value. In the right situations they are worth every penny and in the wrong situation they are worth hardly nothing. More applicable to this situation, if you have 4 Ferrari's and no Combines but you had to street race and harvest a field, would it not make sense to sacrifice one Ferarri for a Combine???
To the Viktor Stalberg point, I admit I smiled a little when he fit the bill we were discussing. Knowing he was once a Leaf and I don't think the Leafs seen much positive talent come from that deal is pretty sweat for a 'Leaf hater" like me. I won't lie about that.
I do concede there are few players like that in the NHL today. I think the reason is that most teams do not put top 6 talent on the bottom 6 group. So, I would think there are a number of guys who could do what Hodgson has done this season, they just don't get the change because they play too many minutes.
That last one was a very odd statement, hey?? |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 21:23:03
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It's rumoured that Hodgson asked for a trade due to lack of minutes
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 23:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Clatts
It's rumoured that Hodgson asked for a trade due to lack of minutes
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
It is rumoured, and so far Hodgson nor his agent have shot it down (despite many chances to do so), just adding fuel to the fire. It would not surprise me if he had asked for one, nor do I blame him - he's better than a 3rd line centre, and he was never going to be otherwise in Vancouver.
Got back from the big VAN/BUF tilt tonight... despite the clusterf*** start for Luongo the team, it was an entertaining tilt and a good comeback attempt that sadly fell short. The best Canucks on the ice - Booth and Kassian, by a long shot. Kassian was hitting everything that moved tonight (no doubt he wanted to get shots in on his old team), and had a goal and an assist. Boothy had 2 goals himself and looked dangerous every time he was on the ice. How did we ever survive before without skilled power forwards?
Its the first game I've been to since the trade....and it felt different. The players on the ice were playing a harder style of hockey, and the fans were reacting well to it Perhaps it was the bad start and that they were playing catchup from the getgo.... I'm used to going to games and ooing and aaaahing over the Sedin's deft passing and pretty goals, but tonight it was a bone crashing game - lots of hitting and muscling onto the puck by the big guys, and relatively little finesse from the skill guys. It was a good balance and I liked what I saw. Kassian is growing on me quickly, thats for sure. |
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Guest8380
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Posted - 03/04/2012 : 10:30:15
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I have read all the posts on this topic and must voice my opinion as well. Being a Canuck fan living in Edmonton I usually do not agree with Beans but I believe he is bang on with his analogy of the trade. Most posters here are viewing the trade Hodgson for Kassian but forget that Gragnani is the equalizing part of the trade. Sultzer is just filler so Buffalo has a back-up d-man.
Beans , you looking for that 3rd liner with similar stats ? Look no further than the canuck line up . Jannik Hansen 14-16-30 in 14:50 of ice time and I am sure he plays at least 2 minutes of that every game killing penalties.
I did not like seeing Cody leave to another team but have come to terms that it makes sense for the Canucks and makes them a more complete team. With all things considered (especially salary cap) and the teams needs I believe both teams win with the players exchanged. |
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Russcores
Top Prospect
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 10:33:40
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ooops wasn't logged in . guest 8380 was my post
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Edited by - Russcores on 03/04/2012 10:34:04 |
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Guest8875
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Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:37:44
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How about the trade they didn't make,
Louie still worth lots. Check
Louie still proving he's a choke artist. Check
Schnieder proving his worth. Check
How is it Van refuses to trade this guy? He lasted about 5 minutes last night?!? Letting in three?!?
Should of grabbed Nash while they still could. Columbus is probaly smart enough to trade him for Louie too. I'm afraid after the playoffs though everyone will see his worth and Van will be stuck with him or have to settle for way less than what they could of got had they traded him by the deadline. I think he is worth 2 sticks and a puck now. (And i'm talking the mini-sticks)[;) |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 20:12:28
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nuxfan....i was at the game too and it was my first time seeing Kassian live as well. Was pretty impressed and as you said, he and Booth were really flying. Pretty disappointing start, especially since Leino more or less "fanned" on his first shot and i think that contributed to Lou's miss on that one. I was actually more pissed at the second goal as he seems to lose his stick all the time??? Someone's gotta sew that stick onto his blocker hand somehow!!!
As far as Hodgson asking for a trade, i did hear somewhere that he asked AV for more ice time back in January and they figure he may have asked in a "or else trade me" sort of way. I'm sure eventually more will come out on this if it's true. |
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Nux deadline moves 
