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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:47:56
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Lee, I disagree. Strongly disagree. When did Backes sign?? Late last season. What did Neal sign for this season, who is on pace to be a far better point producer? Hemsky signed for $5 million but over just 2 years. Chris Kunitz, Martin Hanzel, and Rich Peverly all signed for less than $4 million and they are not all that far off from Grabovksi.
Consider the other guys who are making around $5.5 million and I think Grabovksi is likely a step down on all of them. They include Martin St. Louis, Bobby Ryan, Patrice Bergeron, Marian Hossa, Cory Perry, and Ryan Getzlaf.
No disrespect, but Grabovksi does not hold a candle to any of those guys. I still stand on that I think he is $1 million overpaid each year for a 5 yr deal. |
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Stamkos a Hab
Top Prospect
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 12:29:11
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The 2nd line C is tottaly bogus with the act that Toronto's depth is at C. The Centers that Toronto have: Connoly, Lombardi, Steckel, Bozak, Kadri, Phillip Dupuis and Colborne. All with both NHL experience (at least one game played) and the potential to play in the NHL. With guys like these then Toronto have to move some of them and Grabovski that is flying way below the radar seems like the best one to trade
Sucks 2 be the rest of ya |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 14:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Stamkos a Hab
........and Grabovski that is flying way below the radar seems like the best one to trade
I don't think he's tradeable now to be honest with you, and that's part of the problem i have with this deal. It all goes back to term. 5 years? That's the mistake the Oilers made with Horcoff and they've been saddled with his deal since. Grabo is a guy who's yet to reach the 60pts plateau (though he might this year?), but has never even had a 30 goal year!
I get the "there's not much out there" argument, but i still didn't see Grabo fetching more than 5 mil on the open market! |
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Guest4174
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Posted - 03/07/2012 : 21:01:16
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| Here's some food for thought : 5.5mil for a 58 pts best season, how much will Lupul get based on that signing? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 04:44:34
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I still think the Leafs and Burke were somewhat "forced" to pay out a good deal to Grabovski, possibly one slightly above what he should get . . . but you guys have convinced me now, upon further review.
You're right - he would have gotten close to 5 mil on the free market for the right team; and he's worth about 4.5 based on his production and position.
So, the Leafs did overpay by quite a bit. I will concede this point.
ALL THAT BEING SAID,
What many non-Leaf fans may not get, is Grabovski's tireless work ethic; he is pretty good defensively; he loves Toronto and thrives under the pressure; he's durable; and he does have top end skill where he creates things out of nothing at times, and is the kind of player that will occasionally win a game for your team.
No, he's probably never going to be that 80 point player . . . but he's definitely a guy you'd want on your team. He's a guy you want your young guys to model themselves after, in terms of how to approach the game, enthusiasm, effort, etc.
All of which may have come into play in regards to the overpayment . . . if I was to make excuses for it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 05:55:09
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Last season...Grabo's linemate Nik Kulemin had what 30 goals? And this year? 7. Mikhail had 29 assists. So he virtually assisted on all of Kuli's goals.
This year we've seen Nik almost snakebit. Lots of chances. Loads of near misses and inopportune bounces and deflections. He should end up with close to the same number of assists as last season but...if the first 67 games are an indication...he'll only pot 9 or 10 goals. That, based on last year, is a significant dent in production and the entire line has suffered because of it.
THAT has had an real and negative impact on Grabo's stats in 2011-12?
Now Nik is off the line and Mik is rolling again. It is a direct tie to the discussion at hand...and certainly not Grabovski's fault.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
Edited by - Lee Marshall on 03/08/2012 06:03:51 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 09:01:27
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Lee, aren't Grabo's points on about the same pace as last season, even with Kulemin's struggles? I know they prob haven't been linemates all year, but Grabo seems to be on par with last season.
Slozo...i asked earlier and no one responded but didn't Grabo make it somewhat clear that he liked it in Toronto and would like to stay? If that's the case, i'd have thought Burke could have let him test the market and match what was offered or up it slightly. If he only got 4.75 mil offers, the Leafs could have given him 5 to keep him happy and that would have saved them .5 for five years!
I know you need centers, but i think i'd have preferred to see them go after a big ticket like Parise with that money (yes, i know it will take more than that for Parise, but you get what i'm saying). |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 09:34:26
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Hey Slozo, I agree that Grabovksi is a quality player on both sides of the puck and has little quit in his game. I appreciate that in a player as to others. But that does not change the value of him. My point from the start had nothing to do with the quality of player Grabovski is nor that he is not an important cog in the TO machine. I simply believe he is overpaid by a million a season or the length of his deal is about 3 yrs too long based on the annual salary.
And Lee, I think you might be missing something on his stats being down on last season. As of today, he is on pace for the same number of points (58) as last season, 3 fewer goals and 3 more assits. So, the point of Kulemin's reduced stats doesn't really make sense. In fact, that should show an increase in Grabovksi's value over last season. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/08/2012 : 09:41:42
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Guest 4174 raises a good point – Lupul currently makes $4.25 million, and he has one more year remaining at the same figure.
Kessel makes $5.4 million a season, and he has two more years remaining in his deal before he becomes a UFA.
I know both deals were signed before these players exploded statistically, but what is the message to Kessel, now that Grabovski is paid more than him next season.
It becomes a game of leap-frog – when you start overpaying for players, you end up paying more for other players later on, and then you run into cap problems.
To think that Grabovski is now the highest paid forward on the Leafs is a bit mind-boggling. |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 10:06:40
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Alex/Beans...That IS the point. Grabo is doing what he's doing in spite of the fact that he's NOT getting anywhere near the points through Kulemin who has been part of that line for most of the season. So...losing out on maybe 15 point or so that he had last season through Nik's 30 goals suggests that he's picked up the slack in spite of it.
A 2 man line, at least in terms of production, doesn't afford the 3 players the same chance to succeed. McArthur's numbers are down as a result. So Grabovski is doing rather well given the downturn in opportunity.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 19:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall
Alex/Beans...That IS the point. Grabo is doing what he's doing in spite of the fact that he's NOT getting anywhere near the points through Kulemin who has been part of that line for most of the season. So...losing out on maybe 15 point or so that he had last season through Nik's 30 goals suggests that he's picked up the slack in spite of it.
A 2 man line, at least in terms of production, doesn't afford the 3 players the same chance to succeed. McArthur's numbers are down as a result. So Grabovski is doing rather well given the downturn in opportunity.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
I would say Grabo is doing extremely well, given the opportunity loss from Kulemin's poor year. If Kulemin was even in the same ballpark as last year, that's at least 10 more assists, maybe a goal or two more. That's huge . . . it's a whole tier above where he's at now, points-wise.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 22:00:08
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| Have they been playing together all season though??? I'm pretty sure i've seen them playing on different lines a few times, but i could be wrong. I really don't watch the Leafs all that much. |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 05:49:02
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I'd guess that they've been together around 70% of the time.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 08:08:02
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The Leaf nation can argue until they are blue in the face (pun intended) about Kulemin and the effect o Grabovski.
Bottom line, Grabovski STILL isn't worth $5.5 million. |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 08:51:25
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Sorry Beans...fact is fact...stats are stats...You think anyone on the Penguins would be having a better year if Sid was playing? You think anyone with the Caps would be having a better year if OV was on his game? You think the Red Wings would be slipping as much if their Captain was playing?
And we'll better be able to debate Grabovski's contract and his worth at the end of the 2016-17 season.
He's surely given them quite a bit more value than the 2.8 mil...or whatever it is he's currently getting...salary would imply.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 09:55:43
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Are you trying to say that Crosby's worth is $8.7 million playing with Chris Kunitz and Pascal Dupuis and it would be $16.4 million if he was playing with Malkin and Stamkos????
A player's value is based on his play. Stats are symptoms of a number of things, including line mates, team, systems, etc. A great player will produce better numbers when playing with better players. They will produce less when playing with lesser players. But that does not change the value of that player.
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Mikhail Grabovski to a five-year, $27.5 million co 
