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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2012 : 12:24:53
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Alain Vigneault has resigned with Vancouver. Not sure on terms, not a whole lot of info out as of yet.
Thoughts? I'm not surprised at all.
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=396662
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 12:35:00
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resigned or re-signed?
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 12:45:16
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| Haha whoops! Re-signed. I just saw the same mistake being made elsewhere. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 08:43:22
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Beans will be ecstatic. At least one more year of trash talking the horrible coach of the Canucks, lol!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 10:14:36
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Lol Slozo.....i think he'll be more relieved that there's now ZERO chance that AV will wind up in Edm! Well, at least not for a couple years. 
I was a little surprised actually as i said going into the playoffs that unless they made it back to the cup or at least the semi's that he'd be done. A first round exit convinced me that the Canucks management would see it as a time for someone new, but from what i understand, management has listened to some of the players who've given AV a vote of confidence and it seems most of them want him here? Not sure how much or how many of the players had an impact, but they've obviously not tuned him out at this point.
I was a little surprised when i heard, more than once, "but if they fire him, who is out there who might be better?". I know there's not a ton of guys available at this time, but i thought MacT would be given a shot. I'm not saying he's "better" than AV, but if they were looking for a change, then i think he'd have been a good option to try. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 16:07:26
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I said it before and I'll say it again:
The Vancouver Canucks will never win the Stanley Cup as long as Alain Vignault is the head coach. He does not have control of the team and discipline has cost them in 3 of the past 4 playoffs.
That roster, as much as I hate them, is good enough to compete for the Cup every year but they don't.
Congrats Vancouver. You got what you deserve.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 20:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I said it before and I'll say it again:
The Vancouver Canucks will never win the Stanley Cup as long as Alain Vignault is the head coach. He does not have control of the team and discipline has cost them in 3 of the past 4 playoffs.
That roster, as much as I hate them, is good enough to compete for the Cup every year but they don't.
Congrats Vancouver. You got what you deserve.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Lol, i recall you saying this before. It's like the Luongo haters, who can't seem to grasp the fact that the Canucks were a single win away from a cup. You Beans, would likely be like the Luongo haters who say "they won in spite of him", only you'd be referring to AV. Considering how close he got, you're basically blaming him for the game 7 loss. Kinda comical really. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 23:50:18
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No, that is not what I am saying at all Alex. A very weak attempt to put words into my mouth as well, I might add.
Tell me again, since AV coached this team, how many times did they get punted from the playoffs earlier than projected? And your one game from the Cup comments are wearing for very thin. The Oilers were one win from the Cup. So were the Flames. As were the Flyers with an AHL caliber goalie. What point are you trying to make?
Winning the Cup and not winning the are two very different things. One game away or 5 games away, does it matter??
I mean, if we are talking about comical, let's get all the laughs out of the way now.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Cyclonis
Top Prospect
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 09:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I said it before and I'll say it again:
The Vancouver Canucks will never win the Stanley Cup as long as Alain Vignault is the head coach. He does not have control of the team and discipline has cost them in 3 of the past 4 playoffs.
That roster, as much as I hate them, is good enough to compete for the Cup every year but they don't.
Congrats Vancouver. You got what you deserve.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Awesome Beans awesome! IMHO All this guy does is smirk behind the bench until they go golfing. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 09:11:23
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Man, where are all those clowns who claim all i do is agree with everything you say?
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
No, that is not what I am saying at all Alex. A very weak attempt to put words into my mouth as well, I might add.
Oh oh, did i "strawman" you?  Maybe it's not exactly what you meant, but to say the Canucks will never win a cup with AV at the helm when they were 1 win away seems to imply something along those lines.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Tell me again, since AV coached this team, how many times did they get punted from the playoffs earlier than projected?
My first question would have to be "projected" by who? Some might say all 5 years they've qualified? Others might say just once, this current year? Look at it this way, there's only 2 years where they were eliminated by a team with fewer pts than them, and 1 of those years, get ready for it, they were 1 game away from winning it all! Sorry, but regardless of that comment "wearing very thin", you will continue to hear it as it is very relevant to some of the garbage arguments i read on here. Some would say that even though teams were ahead of them in the standings, it shouldn't matter (esp years where it was minimal in pts)? Really it's a tough question to answer, but it's really not the point of this anyway is it.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And your one game from the Cup comments are wearing for very thin. The Oilers were one win from the Cup. So were the Flames. As were the Flyers with an AHL caliber goalie. What point are you trying to make?
Winning the Cup and not winning the are two very different things. One game away or 5 games away, does it matter??
IMO, yes, in fact it does. A guy coaches his team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final and you claim that team will never win with him as a coach? Sorry, maybe it's me, but i find that 100% laughable. I know you don't like the Canucks, i know you don't like Vigneault and that adds to why i find it humorous in that your opinion is influenced by that hatred.
SO, if the Canucks will never win a cup with AV as coach, AND they made it to a game 7 of the final, in your opinion, who lost them that game? When i do your math, it says it must have been AV seeing as he's incapable of winning a cup there as coach. Call me a strawman, but that's what i read you're implying.
Honestly, i'd have preferred you simply admitted that "if they had in fact won last year, it would have been in spite of the head coach". At least with all the Luongo crap i read, i'd be ready and prepared for such utter poppycock!
Wow, did i just get "strawman" AND "poppycock" into one of my threads? Slozo will surely be proud.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 10:01:42
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I never said (or implied) the Canucks win in spite of him. My point has been, for the past 3-4 years, is that he does not control his team in game. Vancouver has been one of the least disciplined teams in the playoffs during his tenure. He might be a good x's and o's guy. He might install good systems. Lord knows he has talent to work with. But how often have the Canucks lost AND been the team with one of the highest number of penalties in the playoffs?? Do your math on that one and then come back and talk to me.
The history has been very simple and very consistent. When the Canucks play disciplined hockey they win more often than not. When they do not play disciplined hockey, they lose more often than not. The coach is 100% responsible for the discipline of the team. Unfortunately for Canucks fans, the players have been given that responsibility in Vancouver. And what happens?? They lose.
You can't seem to see that although I hate the Canucks there is logic in my comments. Answer me this:
-Did the Canucks win their division four consecutive years and get punted no later than the 2nd round in 3 of those 4 season??
-Did the Canucks lead (or close to lead) the playoffs in penalties in the 3 seasons they were punted early?
-In the most unbiased way you can, please tell me who was the better 'coached' team in the 4 playoff series the Canucks lost over the past 4 seasons???
Finally, I couldn't care less if the Canucks make it to game 7 or get punted in the first round. Until they win the Cup, my statement holds true. The Vancouver Canucks will never win the Stanley Cup with AV coaching. I will gladly eat my words if it happens, but I feel incredibly safe in those comments. So safe that I am willing to entertain one-way bets on that. If you want to bet, I will entertain wagers that have only negative consequences to me if I am wrong. A no risk bet.
Interested??
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 16:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
-Did the Canucks win their division four consecutive years and get punted no later than the 2nd round in 3 of those 4 season??
Yes
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
-Did the Canucks lead (or close to lead) the playoffs in penalties in the 3 seasons they were punted early?
Yes, but only if you consider top 6 out of 15 to be "lead or close to lead" and assuming you're talking PIM/Game as they'd never actually lead in mins until last year when they went as far as a team can.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
-In the most unbiased way you can, please tell me who was the better 'coached' team in the 4 playoff series the Canucks lost over the past 4 seasons???
Tough to say. I think Quenville is the best coach of the 4 in question but that's really just an opinion. Is that what you meant, or are you implying that AV was outcoached in all those series by the other coach? I don't recall Julien doing anything in particular to give his team an edge last year, except for choose Tim Thomas as his starter, but i think even i'd have done that? As for the others? Well, you seem to go on discipline and discipline alone when it comes to coaching, so i guess Quenville schooled him then cuz i will concede that the Canucks took a lot of stupid penalties, especially in '09. However, keep in mind that the Hawks finished with more pts than Vancouver in both of those years, so let's not start saying that the Canucks were some sort of huge favorite.
Now, i really hope you're not about to try to tell me that Sutter outcoached AV and that was a big difference this year? Please tell me you're not. 
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Finally, I couldn't care less if the Canucks make it to game 7 or get punted in the first round. Until they win the Cup, my statement holds true. The Vancouver Canucks will never win the Stanley Cup with AV coaching.
I think this is where i have a problem but maybe i shouldn't. You can think this, but it's not a fact, and that's prob where i erred. It's just a difference of opinion, though i still do find it laughable seeing as they came 1 win from doing so. I could accept your opinion more, if they'd not even come close in the final or they got blatantly outcoached or something? Regardless, this really comes down to your argument about discipline that we had over a year ago IIRC and i don't wanna go back into all that again as i'm sure you prob don't either.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I will gladly eat my words if it happens, but I feel incredibly safe in those comments. So safe that I am willing to entertain one-way bets on that. If you want to bet, I will entertain wagers that have only negative consequences to me if I am wrong. A no risk bet.
Interested??
Interested? No, not even with those terms. I do not wanna see a Canucks logo attached to your avatar for the rest of your existence if in fact the Canucks and AV prove you wrong. In reality, it's not a bet i'd take if it were rewards to both sides, not with the long odds of any team winning the cup, therefore i'm not about to take advantage of a one sided bet. Besides, if AV and the Canucks win, you prob won't be around here much as you won't wanna read some of the stuff i have to say! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2012 : 20:19:53
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Not saying i like Al . V as a coach but would what he accomplished while coaching Van make him argue - ably the most successful ... consistent coach in their history ??
How many great ( consistent ) seasons have they had under his thumb ?...over the last 5 - 6 years.
Before anyone jumps all over this and claims...wheres his stanley cup ??
Which previous Van. coach has a stanley cup ring ??
Before people jump down this guys neck....i`m just simply asking the question.....Since NO COACH has ever led the Canucks to a stanley cup .....has there ever been another Van coach who has been MORE successful and consistent than A . V ??
Really, when you look at the Canucks over the past several seasons and wonder where they went wrong during the playoffs ....compared to how successful they were during the regular season.......the answer is simple......
The Sedin`s are great regular season players while they can free - wheel.......When the tight checking, in your face playoff grind begins.......they are just simply too nice of guys.....they don`t push back......same s**t with Matts Sundin while he was in Toronto.....There in essence lies the Van Canucks problem.......
A.V can change some things for sure......but the one thing he can`t do is grow an extra set of balls for the Sedin`s.
How much punishment is an individual willing to allow his body to take during a playoff run ??....Those who sacrifice are those who wear the stanley cup rings....not the Sedin brothers. |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 06:25:51
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duke i hear what you are saying about sundin....... but its up to coach to say HEY HIT HIM!
if the coach is not willing to say hey step up your game. and the player is not willing to proactivly step up their game. then they do not have the drive neccessary to win the cup that year.
it's a team game. if your captain (sedin, Sundin) isn't setting teh example how can you blame the rest of the team for not doing it as well.
it is up to the coach to make sure his team is responding to the situation properly |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 10:05:45
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This whole who has a ring comment is a joke. Think about it Duke, how many coaches in the NHL today have a Stanley Cup ring as a coach. I can think of three.
Few coaches ever get a ring, period.
To answer your question, Pat Quinn coached Vancouver to a 7 game series against New York In '94. Roger Neilson also had the Canucks in the finals in '82 but ran into one of the best teams of all time in the New York Islanders.
I would say that both of those coaches (along with Marc Crawford and Mike Keenan) are better coaches that AV who have also coached the Canucks.
The consistency comment is very enlightening. How does a team who consistently wins their division (4 in a row) and consistently wins the President's Trophy (2 in a row) also consistently under-perform in the playoffs?? It might be that consistent coach will do nothing about his team consistently taking penalties as well as the other team's coach consistently out-coaching AV?
As far as the comments about the Sedins, I think you couldn't be further from reality. The Canucks don't lose games when the Sedin's don't play physically. They lose games when the Sedin's don't score! Period. Take a look at their playoff performances in the past. The one season they did go to the finals was the Sedin's best playoff performance. All the other years they are far below their season averages and career averages in the playoffs.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 11:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Duke
A.V can change some things for sure......but the one thing he can`t do is grow an extra set of balls for the Sedin`s.
How much punishment is an individual willing to allow his body to take during a playoff run ??....Those who sacrifice are those who wear the stanley cup rings....not the Sedin brothers.
To quote Beans... Duke I don't think you could be further from the truth in this regard. They are perhaps two of the most resilient forwards in the game today, and I don't think an "extra set of balls" is required. Sure, they don't go out of their way to hit other players - they are not particularly big players, and its not part of their game. But, they do take a phenomenal amount of abuse in all their games, they always play against opposing teams top defensemen and top checking forwards and get pounded whenever possible. Yet despite that, they continue to produce points at a fairly regular clip, and for the most part don't miss games due to injury. It takes toughness to play that way, night in and night out. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 05/28/2012 : 12:41:59
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I don't understand all the criticisms about the Sedins or their lack of toughness. Is this a Swedish/European thing? I hope not, because I thought we were past that. Going back to the 70's, I thought Borje Salming showed that Swedes can play the game with toughness, and it really doesn't matter where you're from.
As it relates to captains who lead with toughness, I think Gretzky (4 cups), Yzerman (3 cups) and Sakic (2 cups) led in different ways. I think they were tough in their own ways, but measured up to the Sedin twins, I would venture to say each of these Hall-of-Famers played the game a bit less physically than the Sedins.
You can knock the Sedins all you want (the lack of a Stanley Cup ring is a fair comment, as it stands now), but suggesting they need to "grow a set" is off the mark as far as I'm concerned.
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Guest4178
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Posted - 05/28/2012 : 13:26:18
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I decided to check out some stats to see if the Sedins production slips in the playoffs, and while their numbers do slide a bit, I believe points production slips for most players in the playoffs.
Here are the Sedins stats:
Daniel: 83.6 points per game (regular season)
69.6 points per game (playoffs)
Henrik: 83.7 points per game (regular season)
74.7 points per game (playoffs)
Interestingly (and not surprisingly), the Sedins have almost identical points-per-game in the regular season, but Henrik does better in the playoffs. Maybe this is why he's the captain?!?
Then I decided to check out the stats on the three prolific players mentioned in my earlier posting, and here's what I found:
Yzerman: 1.16 points per game (regular season)
.94 points per game (playoffs)
Sakic: 1.19 points per game (regular season)
1.09 points per game (playoffs)
Gretzky: 1.92 points per game (regular season)
1.83 points per game (playoffs)
So in looking at these three players, their points-per-game production tailed off in the playoffs too, and in fact, Steve Yzerman's numbers slid the most of any of these named players.
I didn't look at any other comparables, but I suspect most players production slips in the playoffs. In using the three I selected, their names were already brought up, and they are multiple-cup winning captains, and players who were not considered physical players in their time, so they seemed like good comparisons.
While I'm sure there are a number of players who maintain the same points-per-game stats in both the regular season and the playoffs, I don't think the slight dip in the Sedin brothers' stats translates into them being poor playoff performers. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 14:53:52
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Guest, you are 100% correct when you look at it from a career point of view. And I stand corrected that all other seasons other than their Cup run saw big drops in the Sedin's production. They have done well in maintaining their performance over the past 4 seasons. Prior to that, they were horrible in the playoffs. In 49 playoff games from 2000-2007, Henrik and Daniel had 24 and 21 pts respectively. Since 2007, Daniel has 46 pts in 49 games and Henrik has 51 pts in 52 games. That is almost dead on pace with their regular season performance.
Regardless of the semantics, the point is that the Sedin's performance has very little to do with Vancouver's lack of success.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 20:10:42
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You say the Sedins performance has very little to do with Van`s playoff success Beans ??
Why don`t you tell us their playoff problems then ??
This hockey team has 2 of todays top point getters in the entire NHL on the same team...BUT THEY CAN`T WIN !!!....they just got ousted by an 8 th place seeded team.
Players with the Sedins skill can sleep for 2 periods and average 1 point per game....esp with all their power - play time.
Beans, are you trying to tell me that in your eyes...( i`m sure you watch playoff hockey ) the Sedin`s during the playoffs are as valuable as someone like Mike Richards because they have as many or more points ??
Any1 who watches hockey knows what a true, valuable playoff performer really is...( eg. Dale Hunter )...a player who gives it all and will try to win at all costs.
Sure the Sedin brothers put up points...thats only part of winning...wearing your heart on your sleeve through leadership and perservance wins cups.......those players used in that earlier post to compare playoff numbers to the Sedins are hockey icons....i wouldn`t even mention them in the same sentence with the Sedin twins.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2012 : 21:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
You say the Sedins performance has very little to do with Van`s playoff success Beans ??
Why don`t you tell us their playoff problems then ??
This hockey team has 2 of todays top point getters in the entire NHL on the same team...BUT THEY CAN`T WIN !!!....they just got ousted by an 8 th place seeded team.
Players with the Sedins skill can sleep for 2 periods and average 1 point per game....esp with all their power - play time.
Beans, are you trying to tell me that in your eyes...( i`m sure you watch playoff hockey ) the Sedin`s during the playoffs are as valuable as someone like Mike Richards because they have as many or more points ??
Any1 who watches hockey knows what a true, valuable playoff performer really is...( eg. Dale Hunter )...a player who gives it all and will try to win at all costs.
Sure the Sedin brothers put up points...thats only part of winning...wearing your heart on your sleeve through leadership and perservance wins cups.......those players used in that earlier post to compare playoff numbers to the Sedins are hockey icons....i wouldn`t even mention them in the same sentence with the Sedin twins.
Duke - they're all valuable. Thats why hockey is a TEAM sport. It takes Sedin-type scoring machines on your top line and top PP unit to score. It takes Richards-type defensive players that can shut down and provide secondary scoring. It takes 3rd and 4th line role players that step up when they can for a tertiary presence. It takes offensive and defensive defensemen all playing big and strong. It takes a great goalie. All those things have to come together and click at the same time in a race to 16 wins.
Sure, scoring is only "part of winning". But it is PART of winning, no? Valuable playoff players owe part of their value to the supporting cast around them, teams can't win it all on the back of a single player anymore. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 05/28/2012 21:37:03 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2012 : 10:09:01
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I've already explained it time and time again. Vancouver is a highly undisciplined hockey team in the playoffs and that has been their downfall for 3 of the past 4 seasons. I blame that on the coaching more than anything else.
Also, don't mis-quote people. It's annoying and frustrating.
I said:
Regardless of the semantics, the point is that the Sedin's performance has very little to do with Vancouver's lack of success.
You said:
You say the Sedins performance has very little to do with Van`s playoff success Beans ??
Two very different statements.
The Sedin's have done what is expected of them (in some cases more) over the past 4 playoff years. Thedon't get paid for playing physical. They get paid to score goals. You can't blame for doing their job. I don't recall Wayne Gretzky or even Mario Lemiuex playing physically in the playoffs.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2012 : 17:50:35
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No one talks about Mario or Wayne or Steve Yzerman ( not being physical ) in the same light as the Sedin`s Beans because these players have all won multiple stanley cups.
The only reason the Sedin`s get a rough ride is because of their failure to lead Van to that 1 stanley cup....and they never will.
Sure they are highly skilled players but they don`t push back, this style of play doesn`t work in the smaller NHL size arenas during the playoffs........compared to international size rinks i mean.....where theres more room to escape in your face hockey.
As of Van`s undisipline play during the playoffs......i don`t really follow it that closely but what is Van`s ratio of taking penalities per game...compared to the rest of playoff teams ??.......are they the front runner in this category ?? |
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Guest4315
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Posted - 05/29/2012 : 19:08:59
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No one talks about Mario, Wayne or Steve like the Sedins' because Mario, Wayne and Steve are all by themselves superstars. The Sedins' are no where near as good. Not even close. Both of them together are superstar players. Split them up and they are about as useful as any 2nd/3rd liner. Pick a good 2nd/3rd line player and imagine he had a twin whom he grew up playing hockey with. Bet you can imagine similar results. Now try putting Mario, Wayne or Steve in that same boat... I see either comlete dominince or too much of a good thing on the same line. If any of these 3 guys had a twin it might be too much skill not enouugh grit and therfore a good idea to split them up. Split up the Sedins' and you probaly won't even notice them half the time.
Don't agree with me. Go ahead and look at the last 2 all-star games. First one they got split up and were o.k. playing with other elite forwards. Second one they played together and made Hartnell look like a god.
I know this is not about A.V. but I read 'the Dukes' post and had to laugh at Mario/Wayne/Steve comparison to Daniel/Henrik. Again i say Not Even Close. I would rather have any one of Mario/Wayne/Steve then Sedin Triplets.
As for A.V. well im not a big Van fan and rarely watch them but when they win 2 presidents trophies in a row under A.V. you would think he is doing a good job. I don't blame him for post season failures as a team needs depth to win a cup and that doesn't seem to be a thing Van has. I suppose all the money being put into the Sedin's and Lu doesn't help too much. Also when Van plays their best all season it is hard to play better in the post-season. I'm pretty sure every team usually plays better in the post-season. Also no one on Van is really Post-saeson Clutch. They have no Briere or even Penner. Ya i know these 2 are just O.k. but come playoff's they are money in the bank. Hopefully the GM shakes some things up. (Moving Lu will help). Then A.V. can prove or not if he deserves to continue as Head coach in Van or even the NHL. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2012 : 21:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I've already explained it time and time again. Vancouver is a highly undisciplined hockey team in the playoffs and that has been their downfall for 3 of the past 4 seasons. I blame that on the coaching more than anything else.
Beans, just curious, which of the 4 years was the Canucks' discipline not their downfall? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 07:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I've already explained it time and time again. Vancouver is a highly undisciplined hockey team in the playoffs and that has been their downfall for 3 of the past 4 seasons. I blame that on the coaching more than anything else.
Beans, just curious, which of the 4 years was the Canucks' discipline not their downfall?
Last year, and not by their doing. They still took too many penalties but the repreive they got was playing against Boston and a single digit performing powerplay.
Had Boston been able to produce on their PP, that series likely would have been over in 5 games.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 12:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4315
Don't agree with me. Go ahead and look at the last 2 all-star games. First one they got split up and were o.k. playing with other elite forwards. Second one they played together and made Hartnell look like a god.
I know this is not about A.V. but I read 'the Dukes' post and had to laugh at Mario/Wayne/Steve comparison to Daniel/Henrik. Again i say Not Even Close.
First off - I don't think the all-star game is a very good place to assess talent, that game is a joke.
Secondly - I think we can all agree that the Sedin's, while very good, are not in the same calibre as Lemieux, Gretzky, Sakic, or Yzerman. I'm not sure why Duke made that comparison, but it is clearly not valid.
quote:
As for A.V. well im not a big Van fan and rarely watch them but when they win 2 presidents trophies in a row under A.V. you would think he is doing a good job. I don't blame him for post season failures as a team needs depth to win a cup and that doesn't seem to be a thing Van has. I suppose all the money being put into the Sedin's and Lu doesn't help too much. Also when Van plays their best all season it is hard to play better in the post-season. I'm pretty sure every team usually plays better in the post-season. Also no one on Van is really Post-saeson Clutch. They have no Briere or even Penner. Ya i know these 2 are just O.k. but come playoff's they are money in the bank. Hopefully the GM shakes some things up. (Moving Lu will help). Then A.V. can prove or not if he deserves to continue as Head coach in Van or even the NHL.
For someone that rarely watches the Canucks, you seem to have formed a lot of opinions about them...
1. The Sedin's and Lu do not account for "all of their money" - all 3 combine for 17M in cap space, which is not unreasonable for your top 2 forwards and top goaltender. I would think most NHL teams are in the same ballpark.
2. Dustin Penner is "clutch in the post season"? Holy crap, talk about some short sighted thinking. Before this season, Penner had exactly 10 points in 27 playoff games - including a year where he won the cup. While he has excelled so far this post-season, I would certainly look at:
- Kesler: 36 pts in 53 games, including 19 during their cup run, where he almost single-handedly won the second round series against NSH.
- Burrows: 29 pts in 63 games, 17 in the cup run year, including 2 OT goals, one of which was the series clinching goal vs CHI.
- Daniel Sedin: 64 pts in 92 games, and is a playoff PPG over the last 4 playoff years
- Henrik Sedin: 71 pts in 95 playoff games, also PPG over the last 4 playoff years
As relatively "clutch". Vancouver has experience and players that can play in the post-season.
To some extent, I agree with Beans that VAN is undisciplined during the post season, and it has had an effect on their success. Some else asked for stats to back it up:
2011/12 - 18.8 PIM/game, 5th worst amongst playoff teams
2010/11 - 17.4 PIM/game, 2nd worst amongst playoff teams
2009/10 - 14.6 PIM/game, 5th worst
2008/09 - 19.1 PIM/game, 3rd worst
It is clear that VAN is regularly one of the worst disciplined teams in the post season. Except for 10/11 they also enjoyed relatively little success (which probably speaks volumes about how good their PK was that year).
If you look at the cup winners for those 4 years, all the winners were top-5 in least number of PIM/g. In short, undisciplined teams tend to not win cups. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 13:31:09
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OK guys, let's make sure we are keeping this on track. This is about Vigneault re-signing with the Canucks. Not the effectiveness of the Sedin's.
Unless the comment is about the coaching situation in Vancouver, let's shut down the Sedin talk. Make a new thread if we want to go down that path.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 19:56:05
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These comparisons i made were in rebuttal to guest 4178`s comments in an earlier post made above.
He basically said Gretzky, Yzerman, and Sakic played the game softer than the Sedin`s but don`t get crapped on for soft play.....so i basically said that when you wear several stanley cup rings you don`t tend to get crapped on at all.
This is where all this jibberish was founded........if interested....scroll up and you will get the picture  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2012 : 20:00:16
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Heres part of guest 4178`s post....
As it relates to captains who lead with toughness, I think Gretzky (4 cups), Yzerman (3 cups) and Sakic (2 cups) led in different ways. I think they were tough in their own ways, but measured up to the Sedin twins, I would venture to say each of these Hall-of-Famers played the game a bit less physically than the Sedins. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2012 : 02:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I've already explained it time and time again. Vancouver is a highly undisciplined hockey team in the playoffs and that has been their downfall for 3 of the past 4 seasons. I blame that on the coaching more than anything else.
Beans, just curious, which of the 4 years was the Canucks' discipline not their downfall?
Last year, and not by their doing. They still took too many penalties but the repreive they got was playing against Boston and a single digit performing powerplay.
Had Boston been able to produce on their PP, that series likely would have been over in 5 games.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Beans, are you counting this season's loss to the Kings? If so, i can't say i agree with discipline being the problem. Go back and look at the numbers from the Kings / Canucks series and you may see what i'm talking about.
As for last year and that Bruins PP, we could easily have seen a 4 game Canucks sweep if their own PP hadn't let them down!
Game 1 - Bos 0/6 Van 0/6
Game 2 - Bos 1/3 Van 1/2
Game 3 - Bos 2/4 Van 0/8 (*also 2 SHG for Boston)
Game 4 - Bos 0/4 Van 0/6
Game 5 - Bos 0/4 Van 0/3
Game 6 - Bos 2/5 Van 1/6
Game 7 - Bos 0/1 Van 0/2 (*1 SHG for Boston)
Totals = Bos 5/27 Van 2/33
I'm not sure how the Canucks had a problem with discipline? As for them getting a "repreive", i'd say it was the other way around. Counting the shorthanded goals, the Canucks were -1 for 33 on the PP. It doesn't get much worse than that. Mix that in with a Conn Smythe performance from Thomas and there's more than enough proof for me that coaching wasn't a factor in the final last year!
Also, and this is in advance of your response to the number of penalties the Canucks took this year, look at how many of the minors they took were for the ridiculous "delay of game" (puck over the glass) penalty. Please don't tell me this is the coach's fault for lack of discipline???
Again, this is just a difference of opinion really. I'm not about to claim that the Canucks weren't undisciplined at times throughout the playoffs in years past, but you and i disagree on who's fault it is. I can't recall from your posts from a year or so ago when this was discussed, but i do recall you saying it's almost entirely on the coach for the issue of team discipline. I disagree and we should just move on and not rehash that entire argument.
nuxfan.....
I don't have time to look up all the numbers, but i do recall Boston being right behind Vancouver in PIM/Game last year in the playoffs, so your statement isn't correct. I'm not gonna doubt that there are more Cup winners with low PIM/Game than there are high ones, but it's not essential to winning. I'd venture to guess that teams with better special teams numbers are more successful. Except for perhaps this year's Kings team which has been atrocious on the PP yet they continue to win! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 14:47:15
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Your strengthing my arguement Alex .....A.V was the least of Van`s problems. Where were the Sedin brothers on all those 0 `fers on the Canucks PP`s ??....even at 15 - 20 % they may very well have won the cup.
In my opinion, watching the Canucks play during the last couple of post seasons........Van. goes as Ryan Kesler ( and his line ) goes.....When kesler is flying, Van wins....when he doesn`t show, Van will most likely lose, during the playoffs i mean. NOT the regular season.
He is Van`s center - peice, not A . V....or the Sedin`s...during post - season play. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 16:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
nuxfan.....
I don't have time to look up all the numbers, but i do recall Boston being right behind Vancouver in PIM/Game last year in the playoffs, so your statement isn't correct. I'm not gonna doubt that there are more Cup winners with low PIM/Game than there are high ones, but it's not essential to winning. I'd venture to guess that teams with better special teams numbers are more successful. Except for perhaps this year's Kings team which has been atrocious on the PP yet they continue to win!
Alex - you are correct, my bad. I'm not sure why I had BOS as a top-5 last year, but in fact they were the 3rd worst in the playoffs for PIM/game. They seem to be the only team that has won the cup in recent memory that was not top-5 in playoff discipline.
I also agree that discipline was not the downfall of VAN in last year's finals, both teams had plenty of chances on the PP to make a difference, and both had pretty crap PP's during the finals. As for the rest of the playoffs, there were only a couple of games I can think of (game 3 vs SJ, games 4 and 5 vs CHI) where discipline cost the Canucks a single game. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 16:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Your strengthing my arguement Alex .....A.V was the least of Van`s problems. Where were the Sedin brothers on all those 0 `fers on the Canucks PP`s ??....even at 15 - 20 % they may very well have won the cup.
In my opinion, watching the Canucks play during the last couple of post seasons........Van. goes as Ryan Kesler ( and his line ) goes.....When kesler is flying, Van wins....when he doesn`t show, Van will most likely lose, during the playoffs i mean. NOT the regular season.
He is Van`s center - peice, not A . V....or the Sedin`s...during post - season play.
Duke, you do realize that Kesler plays on the same PP unit as the Sedin's, right? So if the Sedin's are going 0-fer on the PP, so is Kesler.
Kesler is what he is supposed to be - secondary scoring and a physical presence. It makes sense that when he's on his game VAN is winning, because it gives AV 2 solid scoring options, which is difficult to defend against. There are not many games where Kesler is flying and the Sedin's are not. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2012 : 12:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Your strengthing my arguement Alex
Well, i gotta be honest, that wasn't my intent.
Duke, what i don't agree with is your theory that you have to "push back" when it comes to the rough stuff in the playoffs and that's why the "Sedin's will never lead Van to a cup". Not all guys who are effective play a physical style in the playoffs. I think what you're missing is that the Sedin's might not dish out hits, but they are amongst the best of the non physical players when it comes to taking a hit! Look at the hit Hank took from Dustin Brown. Did it change the way he played the rest of the way? Not at all. These guys are often the targets of hits as teams have tried over the years to get them off their game. It seldom works. Look back to the finals last year. The goals didn't come, but the Sedin's continued to play exactly the way they always do, unfortunately they ran into the hottest goalie at the time. IMO, it wasn't the twins lack of physicality or "pushing back" that cost the Canucks the cup, it wasn't the coach not keeping them disciplined either. It was a combination of things but the biggest contributor was running into a goalie playing the greatest hockey of his career.
Heck, it couldn't be AV's fault last year, even Beans is willing to admit that! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 07:15:34
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I find it funny that we have now proven that the Sedins produce at a very good and respectable pace in the playoffs; we have proven in the past that Luongo is not the issue, his numbers are stellar in the playoffs overall.
Then, we come to notice that the team definitely plays very undisciplined in the playoffs; and, that their power play was pretty crap overall in the last few playoff runs.
Um . . . that is EXACTLY the responsibility of the coach, guys. Power play is one of the big things you can judge a coach's performance on - ESPECIALLY when you have the Sedins and Kesler playing for you! And discipline? Directly the responsibility of the coach to harness and maintain.
This thread has shown me one thing . . . it's proven to me that actually Vigneault is a worse coach than I at first thought! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 12:22:50
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Slozo....While i don't totally agree with you, and with making every effort to not get totally caught up in my view vs yours as far as the coach and discipline, lemme ask you this....
Is it possible for a coach to "get better" / improve? If so, is that not exactly what AV has done? So many consider the Canucks underachievers in those years when Chi knocked them out, but let's not forget, the Canucks were never any sort of big favorite in those series. You can throw in the Anaheim one as well as some like to call that year an underachieving one as well? For arguments sake, let's say PP and discipline was the #1 issue those years. Now, let's look to last year when they made the final. Could AV have improved his coaching? Could he have "reeled them in" and had them a little more disciplined? Could he have improved the PP? If so, did he learn to be a better coach and is that part of the reason they went to the final? Is it not then fair to say that their PP dried up at the worst time? Have you any idea just how good it was up until the Bruins series??? They were running at a very impressive rate which happened to be over 30% through 3 rounds. The Canucks punished teams for taking liberties with them as they had all season en route to the President's trophy. When they ran into Chara and the Boston PK, plus the red hot Tim Thomas, they stubbled. Unfortunately it was at the worst possible time. They went <6% in the final and it cost them. So, is AV suddenly bad because his PP dried up for a 7 game stretch???
Fast forward to this year. Is it the coach's fault they lost in round 1 this year to this Kings team? If so, are there 2 and maybe 3 other coaches who are to blame for losing to this same Kings team??? No way you can put this season's playoff loss on AV, unless i'm missing something he did or didn't do??? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 13:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I find it funny that we have now proven that the Sedins produce at a very good and respectable pace in the playoffs; we have proven in the past that Luongo is not the issue, his numbers are stellar in the playoffs overall.
Then, we come to notice that the team definitely plays very undisciplined in the playoffs; and, that their power play was pretty crap overall in the last few playoff runs.
Um . . . that is EXACTLY the responsibility of the coach, guys. Power play is one of the big things you can judge a coach's performance on - ESPECIALLY when you have the Sedins and Kesler playing for you! And discipline? Directly the responsibility of the coach to harness and maintain.
Um.... the PP has not exactly been crap over the last few playoff runs. It was crap over the last 2 playoff series, over a 4 year span. For the other 7 (over 3 years) series, the PP was actually very good - a combined 39-for-152, or nearly 26%. That is a pretty unbelievable PP% in the playoffs, and to average that for 7 series spanning 3 years, is pretty remarkable.
And when the PP does go to crap (which it certainly has been for the last 2 playoff series), it was against a Conn Smythe winning goalie, and then another (probable) Conn Smythe winning goalie. Perhaps coaching is not the only thing wrong here?
As for discipline - yes, I agree that discipline is ultimately the coach's responsibility, and they Canucks have certainly been one of the most penalized playoff teams over the last 4 years. However, looking at last year's cup run it is obvious that bad discipline does not always mean early exit to the playoffs - otherwise both BOS and VAN should not have been there at the end.
If you want to look at reasons for Vancouver's inability to get the ultimate prize over the last 4 years, there are many. AV might not be the best coach out there, but IMO he is capable of coaching a team to the cup.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 15:30:53
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Alex, I am so so super duper glad you brought up the Kings.
Riddle me this, one who believe that AV is the man, how are the Kings better than the Canucks??
Are they better in net?? I don't think so.
Do they have a better group of defensemen?? Nope. I think other than Doughty that Vancouver's defensemen have it in spades over the Kings.
What about their forwards? I don't know. Maybe the Kings are better in this department but it's not by a whole bunch.
So why did the Kings win????
I'll give you a clue. That goofy looking suit behind the the Kings bench from Viking, Alberta installed a system. That system is effective and their players buy into the plans of that goofy SOB completely.
The Kings didn't out play the Canucks on skill. They outplayed the Canucks with their system and approach to the game.
That, my friend, is coaching.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 16:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Alex, I am so so super duper glad you brought up the Kings.
Riddle me this, one who believe that AV is the man, how are the Kings better than the Canucks??
Are they better in net?? I don't think so.
Do they have a better group of defensemen?? Nope. I think other than Doughty that Vancouver's defensemen have it in spades over the Kings.
What about their forwards? I don't know. Maybe the Kings are better in this department but it's not by a whole bunch.
So why did the Kings win????
I'll give you a clue. That goofy looking suit behind the the Kings bench from Viking, Alberta installed a system. That system is effective and their players buy into the plans of that goofy SOB completely.
The Kings didn't out play the Canucks on skill. They outplayed the Canucks with their system and approach to the game.
That, my friend, is coaching.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
First off smartass, i never said AV was "the man". I don't even think he's in the top tier of coaches necessarily. But i do find it laughable when someone says he's not capable of winning a cup with the Canucks when they came as close as they did already. Sorry, but if you don't see how ridiculous that comment is, then you're too stubborn/biased to admit it, your not very intelligent or you just don't get it. I'm not saying coaching isn't important, i just simply believe that you need a mix of skill, coaching, players performing to their capabilities, etc all mixing at the right time and that my friend is what we're all witnessing with the LA Kings.
I noticed you've gone to the "systems" that the LA coaching staff has instilled now and no longer the Canucks lack of discipline that you claimed was their downfall the other day. Did you perhaps finally realize that discipline wasn't in fact the Canucks downfall this season?
As for the two teams and their comparisons, i'll answer that in one big swoop. I think overall that the Canucks are the better team. Overall. THAT, is taking into consideration when both teams have all their players playing at their very best. Now, if the best team could ALWAYS play their best, some of those Oilers teams of the 80's and Habs of the 70's would have gone undefeated. Be it single games, or 7 game series', there exists this thing called upsets. Yes, coaching and systems and discipline can def have a say, but so too can injuries, slumps, teams performing at their peaks, etc.
If Darryl Sutter is such a genius, when did he become so? The guy hasn't done a whole lot in his playoff career as a coach, including coaching 3 div winning teams (2 of which won their conference) to 2 first round exits and one wopping 2nd round exit! Tell me something, in Sutter's first 10 years as a coach, he made it past the 2nd round a grand total of once. He then made the finals the very next year and lost. At that point were you claiming he'd never coach a team to a cup as well? Cuz he's pretty close right now you know.
Somehow, he's suddenly the miracle man eh? Scotty Bowman, move aside! The new KING is here! Don't worry Van, StL, Pho and NJ (maybe), no way you got beat by a team that peaked at the right time, it was the coach who beat you! |
Edited by - Alex116 on 06/04/2012 16:49:54 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2012 : 17:00:49
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Beans, you'd better contact this guy! HE's clearly not understanding the affect Sutter is having on this Kings team!
*From Kevin Allen of USA Today*
Quick's 1.44 goals-against average and .947 save percentage are primary reasons why the Kings are 14-2 with a 2-0 lead going into Monday night's Game 3 (8 ET, NBC Sports Network) of the best-of-seven Stanley Cup Final.
Quick's postseason playoff GAA and save percentage are the best recorded by a Stanley Cup Final goalie, with a minimum of 10 games played, since Jacques Plante posted a 1.43 GAA and .949 save percentage over 10 games for the St. Louis Blues in 1969.
Is Sutter eligible for the Conn Smythe? 
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Vigneault re-signs with the Canucks 
