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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2007 : 20:21:24
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I thought it might be interesting to look at the Hockey News list without the goalies and also without any of the players on the list whose prime occured before 1970.
Doing so the list looks like the following (with some improvisation from a diehard Bruins fan on Number 20 ):
1. Wayne Gretzky, C
2. Bobby Orr, D
3. Mario Lemieux,
4. Guy Lafleur, RW
5. Mark Messier, C/LW
6. Raymond Bourque, D
7. Phil Esposito, C
8. Denis Potvin, D
9. Mike Bossy, RW
10. Bobby Clarke, C
11. Larry Robinson, D
12. Paul Coffey, D
13. Bryan Trottier, C
14. Jaromir Jagr, RW
15. Marcel Dionne, C
16. Chris Chelios, D
17. Gilbert Perreault, C
18. Brad Park, D
19. Jari Kurri, RW
20. Stan Jonathon
I guess now in 2007 cases can be made for Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg and maybe some others to crack this list.
Here's what my "Prime after '70 - Peak Value" list would look like(excluding goalies):
1. Bobby Orr, D
2. Mark Messier, C/LW
3. Mario Lemieux, C
4. Wayne Gretzky, C
5. Guy Lafleur, RW
6. Denis Potvin, D
7. Bryan Trottier, C
8. Mike Bossy, RW
9. Raymond Bourque, D
10. Brad Park, D
11. Cam Neely
12. Larry Robinson, D
13. Peter Forsberg, C
14. Marcel Dionne, C
15. Steve Yzerman
16. Joe Sakic, C
17. Chris Chelios, D
18. Phil Esposito, C
19. Bobby Clarke, C
20. Paul Coffey, D
I know they're good but I ended up bumping Perreault, Jagr and Kurri AND JONATHON off the list.
I had the most problems figuring out what to do with Coffey. On the one hand, I wondered whether he should even be on the list given his not so great defensive abilities. On the other hand, he was so unique, and given the dimension a hybrid winger like him can bring to the right team (like the one he was on) and given his incredible skating ability, it was really kind of hard to ignore him.
The second hard one for me was Clarke. Tempting to put someone else in his place, but say what you want about the guy (AND I HAVE ) the guy did work frigg'n hard! If you can somehow forget the dirty stuff, you almost have to fit him in just as a bow to the value of good old-fashioned hard work.
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 03:34:24
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Personally I would pick Lidström over Chelios. And I guess this thread is top 20 in the NHL, if it would be top 20 ever there would be a lot more russian names on my list.
Secondly I find it hard to compare some of the really old players with the more recent ones, sorry but I think many of the old ones wouldn´t cut it or get away with alot of the stuff they used to pull in the modern NHL.
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 04:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Personally I would pick Lidström over Chelios. And I guess this thread is top 20 in the NHL, if it would be top 20 ever there would be a lot more russian names on my list.
Secondly I find it hard to compare some of the really old players with the more recent ones, sorry but I think many of the old ones wouldn´t cut it or get away with alot of the stuff they used to pull in the modern NHL.
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.)
Good point about Lidstrom. I just forgot about him. I did consider Stastny and one or two other players from Russia, etc but in the end, it's tough to fit everyone in. Your comment about the players from the early '70s is understood to a point, but I think even considering that, I'd have a hard time bumping any of the players out of my top 12. In other words, if more modern guys or Russian, etc guys are to get in, on my list anyway, it is probably at the expense of Clarke and Espo. I could buy that maybe.
Remember, it's top 20 so lots of terrific players are not gonna get in.
Edit - But, yes, for me this list is for players in the NHL |
Edited by - andyhack on 06/02/2007 04:30:32 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 09:49:13
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I did this pretty quickly so it may not be exactly how I would rank them but it should be close i think. It's not easy to do actually.
1. Bobby Orr, D
2. Mario Lemieux, C
3. Bobby Clarke, C
4. Wayne Gretzky, C
5. Denis Potvin, D
6. Mark Messier, C
7. Marcel Dionne, C
8 Guy Lafleur, RW
9. Bryan Trottier, C
10. Mike Bossy, RW
11. Raymond Bourque, D
12. Brad Park, D
13 Jaromir Jagr, RW
14. Peter Forsberg, C
15. Larry Robinson, D
16. Steve Yzerman, C
17. Joe Sakic, C
18 Phil Esposito, C
19. Chris Chelios, D
20. Niklas Lidstrom, D
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 06/08/2007 16:11:36 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 12:18:52
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Willus, your list looks pretty solid. My only differences would be Gretzky at the top and Orr, Clarke, and Lemieux shift down one spot each. I would also put Coffey on the list near the bottom, but I don't know who I would take off your list. Maybe a tie for 20th.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 06:26:27
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I'd put Peter Stastny in there for sure
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 13:50:33
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Stastny was the 2nd most prolific scorer from the 80's and a pioneer of the European invasion of the NHL. However, he never had a 50 goals season, does not have 500 goals, and No Cups. All of which seem to be regarded as measuring sticks for offensive players. And he was an even player with more than 1200 points and over a point a game production.
Who could he move ahead of on the list??
He was #56 on the Top 100 list from '97. That about where he should be.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Stastny was the 2nd most prolific scorer from the 80's and a pioneer of the European invasion of the NHL. However, he never had a 50 goals season, does not have 500 goals, and No Cups. All of which seem to be regarded as measuring sticks for offensive players. And he was an even player with more than 1200 points and over a point a game production.
Who could he move ahead of on the list??
He was #56 on the Top 100 list from '97. That about where he should be.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I read what you wrote in the Dionne thread.You dont know what you are talking about. Unsurprising from a unabashed Gretzky fan.
Anyway - buy Game 4 of the 77 Finals. Its available on the Net. Prepare to end up babbling and rolling on the floor as you come to the realization that you are dead wrong about everything. Dont respond on thjsi site until you have.
Anyway... you know my Top 10 since 1971 when I began watching.
I guess this excludes goalies:
1. Mario
2. Orr
3.Jagr - If he was from Kingston...
4.Lafleur
5.Bourque
6.Esposito (whoever said he needed Orr needs to check hockeydb.com and rewatch the 72 Series where he was the best of the best without Orr)
7.Trottier
8.Messier
9.Potvin
10. Robinson
Notables - Bossy was a Brett Hull for 9 years. He coudlnt carry the puck and doesnt belong here. Gretzky was a 1 way girlieman. Dionne was another 1 way no check centre who couldnt carry Lafleur's jock.
I am Ogopogo's bodyguard |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 19:37:34
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Choochie-guy
I may be able to buy Espo over Dionne, maybe, but Number 6 on the list? Not sure I could put him ahead of better all-round, more talented, players like Trottier and Messier who were great leaders too.
Bossy? Well, I gotta admit - you do have me thinking whether I ranked him too highly. But like Gretzky, he gets a position somewhere pretty high for me just for fulfilling his role so well. I know we disagree on this, but that's okay - my "Non-Gretzky camp member" manual says that it is healthy to disagree with fellow camp members occasionally
I do agree that Lafleur was amazing, better than many realize, and should NOT be pushed down the list the way some have been saying.
Edit - Willus-san - curious why you have Clarke at Number 3. That's quite a compliment to him. His underrated playmaking and strong defensive play maybe? Of that type of player though, I'd argue that, overall, you get more with the Messier and Trottier packages. Certainly Messier was a far superior skater. Also, I'd have trouble letting a phenom like Lafleur go by for Clarke - I use the word "phenom" purposely because I really do believe Lafleur gets short changed when people refer to Lemiuex, Gretzky and Orr that way but leave out Guy. He burnt out, yes, but from about 76 to 80, night in and night out, the guy was unbelievable, other-worldly, mind-boggling ... and every other word you might find posted by a Gretzky guy about Gretzky's stats.
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Edited by - andyhack on 06/05/2007 20:02:14 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:07:45
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Chooch, let's sign a treaty agreement. Stop posting anything about me or anything I post on here. I will do the same.
Life will be much more simple.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:41:11
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Andyhack,
Clarke's underrated playmaking and defensive play are a very large part of it.
He has a Selke and 3 Harts and I have never seen anyone play with more heart than Clarke. Anyone!
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by chooch
[quote]Originally posted by Beans15
Notables - Bossy was a Brett Hull for 9 years. He coudlnt carry the puck and doesnt belong here.
Dionne was another 1 way no check centre who couldnt carry Lafleur's jock.
I am Ogopogo's bodyguard
Gotta disagree with you here Chooch. Bossy's skating was far superior to Hull's and he was a better playmaker than Hull. Obviously not a physical player but Bossy's style is not all that different than Lafleurs really.
Lafleur, Bossy and Dionne could all leave you flabbergasted. They were truly a joy to watch.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 13:51:32
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My top 10 since 1970
Peter Stastny
Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr
Phil Esposito
Ken Dryden
Joe Sakic
Steve Yzerman
Jari Kurri
Mario Lemieux
Mark Messier
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
Edited by - stastnysforever on 06/06/2007 13:52:42 |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Chooch, let's sign a treaty agreement. Stop posting anything about me or anything I post on here. I will do the same.
Life will be much more simple.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Watch G4 of the 77 FInals and I"ll sign.
I am Ogopogo's bodyguard |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:09:40
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And what is it I will learn from this?? I know that Lafleur was one of the best ever. I never denied that. So what will this game prove to me??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And what is it I will learn from this?? I know that Lafleur was one of the best ever. I never denied that. So what will this game prove to me??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
It may not prove anything but at least you'd get to watch some great hockey and the best NHL team ever iced.
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Edited by - willus3 on 06/07/2007 16:13:06 |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And what is it I will learn from this?? I know that Lafleur was one of the best ever. I never denied that. So what will this game prove to me??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
It may not prove anything but at least you'd get to watch some great hockey and the best NHL team ever iced.
Thats right!!!!....Ice....Man....
In a word, Beans15 "Domination" and "pure artistry". No empty stats runs, or goal sucky hanging at centre.
If complete games of Bobby Orr in his prime were available I'd say the same. Mario 5 goals v. Rangers....
But Finals, tough opponent, on the best team ever 1977 Habs, and just pure domination and beautiful art.....
Its worth the 25$.
I am Ogopogo's bodyguard |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 04:16:54
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Hm It would be interesting to hear where you feel a guy like Viacheslav Fetisov belong on this list.
Many times compared with Orr and sometimes the edge given to Fetisov.
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 06:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Hm It would be interesting to hear where you feel a guy like Viacheslav Fetisov belong on this list.
Many times compared with Orr and sometimes the edge given to Fetisov.
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.)
Fetisov was a great, great player. He was not, however, better than Orr. I have never met anyone who would say otherwise.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 20:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Stastny was the 2nd most prolific scorer from the 80's and a pioneer of the European invasion of the NHL. However, he never had a 50 goals season, does not have 500 goals, and No Cups. All of which seem to be regarded as measuring sticks for offensive players. And he was an even player with more than 1200 points and over a point a game production.
Who could he move ahead of on the list??
He was #56 on the Top 100 list from '97. That about where he should be.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
HE never had 50 goals in a season, or 500 goals in his career because he was a playmaker
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
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Top 20 since 1970 
