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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  13:13:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Next season the Oilers will have only Duby...why on earth wouldn`t you want a 2nd goalie like Bishop ?? I wish the leafs would have picked him up. Even if he never steals Reimers job...at least you have backup and unlimited potential in net.



Beans is right, and I said the same thing a few posts up - goalie controversy. The last thing EDM needs is two goalies like Bishop/Dubnyk. And honestly, the last thing that TOR needs is 3 goalies in the same boat. EDM will either decide that Dubnyk is The Man, and get him a reliable-but-cheaper-than-Khabbi backup next year, or they will decide he is not and go another direction in goal. Either way, I just don't see how Bishop solves any problem that EDM has now.

Duke, I think you are highly overvaluing Bishop, based on what he's done so far. He's played 35-ish games spread over 3 seasons. He has never had the pressure of being a #1 over any sort of long duration, has never played a playoff game. He has never been able to crack an NHL roster except as an injury call up. I understand that he's improving, and understand that there is some potential there... but other than a 11 game stint with OTT, what else are you basing this "drop everything and get this guy" outlook on?

BTW, TB is 2-2 since Bishop became their starter (BTW, he is only the clear starter because Lindback is injured right now). He had 2 games where he let in 4 goals each, a shutout, and a 2 goal game. TB is nearly 500 on the year. So what's your point?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  13:19:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Secondly, you're 5 game samples are simply dumb. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but if you are seriously making a comment like "What's NJ's record this season" and eluding to Brodeur being a poor goaltender, again, it's dumb. The guy has more wins than any player in who has every played his position.

I don't think he was eluding to Brodeur being a poor goaltender, actually the exact opposite. I think he was supporting his stance that goaltending is everything and that NJ's record is far better with Brodeur in net than when he's not? At least that's what i understood he was trying for?

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

By the way, you might want to check out NJ's offensive and defensive stats before making this outrageous claims. NJ has a very respectable 2.6 goal against per game and the best PK in the league. Perhaps the reason NJ is losing is there offense is morbid and during their current 8 game losing streak they have scored a grand total of 16 goals. Most teams averaging 2 or fewer goals a game are going to lose more than they win. You might also want to notice that of those 8 games, 4 were either OT or SO losses.

This is a great point. It's pretty obvious that the Devils are missing Ilya Kovalchuk's offense more than anything right now!


quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
You might be right, goaltending might be the most important thing, but goalies don't score. You can't win a game by simply keeping the puck out of the net, you ahve to put the puck in the net too!


You don't always have to put the puck in the net. Sometimes the other team does it for you. Right Marc Bergevin?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyQswGcQiN0
Such an awesome goal, and in the playoffs too! Just love the play by play guy's call on this!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  13:49:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, I totally disagree. I think and have said for 3-4 years that Oilers lack goaltender depth. Bishop may not be perfect for the Oilers, but his contract was very friendly and his stats were excellent, when needed after he became the #1 due to Andersons injury. Oilers would not have had to give up much to get him. They have several Canacher type players in the system or not getting the playing time due to forward depth. Truthfully the Senator could have used a player like Ryan Whitney the most and based on his being bench several times this year, I think the Oilers would have liked to trade player for player.

I understand Vancouver's biggest problem is goaltender controversies this year, but for the last 3 seasons that has been a strength, having goaltender depth.

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Next season the Oilers will have only Duby...why on earth wouldn`t you want a 2nd goalie like Bishop ?? I wish the leafs would have picked him up. Even if he never steals Reimers job...at least you have backup and unlimited potential in net.



Beans is right, and I said the same thing a few posts up - goalie controversy. The last thing EDM needs is two goalies like Bishop/Dubnyk. And honestly, the last thing that TOR needs is 3 goalies in the same boat. EDM will either decide that Dubnyk is The Man, and get him a reliable-but-cheaper-than-Khabbi backup next year, or they will decide he is not and go another direction in goal. Either way, I just don't see how Bishop solves any problem that EDM has now.

Duke, I think you are highly overvaluing Bishop, based on what he's done so far. He's played 35-ish games spread over 3 seasons. He has never had the pressure of being a #1 over any sort of long duration, has never played a playoff game. He has never been able to crack an NHL roster except as an injury call up. I understand that he's improving, and understand that there is some potential there... but other than a 11 game stint with OTT, what else are you basing this "drop everything and get this guy" outlook on?

BTW, TB is 2-2 since Bishop became their starter (BTW, he is only the clear starter because Lindback is injured right now). He had 2 games where he let in 4 goals each, a shutout, and a 2 goal game. TB is nearly 500 on the year. So what's your point?

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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
808 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  14:02:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Could be wrong, but I think Duke is suggesting that Brodeur and Ward have been excelling this season. Please tell me I'm wrong.


The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.

Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 04/11/2013 14:04:40
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  14:17:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I assumed that as Broduer has lost 8 consecutive starts (the longest of his losing streak of his career) the point was Broduer is the problem. If that wasn't the point, what Duke's original point was is dead wrong as even the best goalies in the world can have rough patches.

Joshua, and all others who keep on flogging the media's dead horse of goalie issue in Edmonton, what are the measures of a 'good' goalie?? I mean, if Ben Bishop is such a stud, why are his numbers virtually identical to Devin Dubnyk's except for wins?? Could it be that Ottawa is a better team who scores more goals than the Oilers??? Hmmm.


Here are the Oilers goalie stats for the past 4 years. Tell me how this differs from any other team in the NHL??

2013 - 2.58 GAA, .921 save %
2012 - 2.67GAA, .912 save %
2011 - 3.03 GAA, .903 save %
2010 - 3.28 GAA, .900 save %

I am not saying in any way that the Oilers have elite goaltending nor have had it for a while. But looking at the fact that the numbers have progressively improved for the past 4 years and this year's numbers are in the top 10 in the NHL, why exactly do you think the Oilers should go out and get a new goalie??

A team getting around 2.5 GAA and over .900 save % normally is not considered to have 'goalie issues.' A team with less than 2.5 goals for per game are known to have scoring issues. Goalies don't help scoring.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
808 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  15:12:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To expand on this point, and also get back to another that I made earlier, Fuhr, Moog, and Ranford. Amongst these three, how many regular seasons of less than 3.00 GAA and/or better than .900 SP were achieved? While with the Oilers, that is.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  15:32:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Forget Bishop in the comment section here for a moment. How is goaltender depth or lack of goaltender depth going forward a positive in Edmonton next year. Why do you think the Oilers were in the running for Bishop? I'll tell you why. Oilers lack goaltender depth. Your arguement based on Dubnyk's stats aside, why not go after a contract friendly young goalie in Edmonton regardless of how good Dubnyk may be. He has 0% post season experience and as of now is the default #1 goalie due to lack of goaltender depth in Edmonton. Right now Edmonton is outside of the playoff picture by 2 wins. My arguement is Edmonton would play better in front of a goalie they have more confidence in and may have won 2 or more of those close games if they had better depth in the goalie department and could shelve Dubnyk on his off nights. If they are going to gain that confidence with Dubnyk going forward I still see no downside to having goalie depth. Argue against goaltender depth not stats please.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  15:42:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

To expand on this point, and also get back to another that I made earlier, Fuhr, Moog, and Ranford. Amongst these three, how many regular seasons of less than 3.00 GAA and/or better than .900 SP were achieved? While with the Oilers, that is.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.



Oil....Not sure where you're going with the comparison to those guys, but it's a totally unfair comparison. We're talking about 2 different era's. Look back to the goalie stats back in the 80's and you'll see that only 2 or 3 goalies on average, per season, had sub 3.00 GAA's. That's insane when you look at today's goalies! Ben Scriven's is currently the 30th ranked goalie by GAA and he's sitting at 2.59. That would have led a lot of season's in the 80's! Guys are going for sub 2.00 avg's nowadays, not 3.00!
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
808 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  16:16:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Where I am going with this is simple. The focus should not be on the goaltender. The team that the Oil has accumulated is similar to the run and gun 80's team, except for one thing. They don't always run and gun. Especially the gun part.

Ben Bishop will be no saviour. Neither will Devan Dubnyk. I honestly have no informed opinion of Kruger as a coach, but things should be clicking by now, and they are not. When (if) this crew does come around, it's gonna be by the will of the team, just like the 80's.

BTW, the answer to the question in my previous post is '0'. Only 2 or 3 a year in the decade where the Oil dominated every other category of the game? There's your answer.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.
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Guest2228
( )

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  19:17:13  Reply with Quote
eans , how in the name of god could you read my post and for one minute think that i was bashing Brodeur or Ward ???

I was stating everything opposite to what you claim !!! I `ve accused you in the past for selective reading and twisting written material to portray something that the writer IS NOT SAYING AT ALL.....here we go again.....

Why is that OILINONTARIO and Alex read the post and understood what i was portraying ??

OK, the Oilers only need 1 goalie, good for them......heaven forbid they might end up with 2 great goalies and trade one for a blue-chip prospect....they certainly wouldn`t want that....

You can`t compare a 2 ( # 1) goalie tandem situation to the problem in Vancouver, most teams would LOVE this problem ( 2 ) # 1 goalies....

Luongo has been very selective with his no-trade clause and almost un-moveable contract, this is a unique situation and not the norm.....

Also comparing the Oilers goalies stats to Ottawa`s is NONENSE, when looking at standings........hockey players play TOTALLY DIFFRENT in front of diffrent goalies......

If players have trust in their goalie, they cheat, which leads to offense.......if not the on-ice skaters are always on the defense mindset which throws off their offensive abilities because of constant fear of getting caugth thus giving up better scoring chances againist

Any1 whose played any hockey knows this.

In conclusion Beans.....as to my post being dead wrong and twice dumb ....you clearly read everything A$$ - backwards and every contradicting remark you made was wrong because i never posted 1 thing you thought i did.

]
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  19:19:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 2228 was me, sorry, forgot to log on
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  08:18:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't Believe either goaltender would be a savoir or the only piece missing, but I do believe the Oilers lack goaltender depth. I do believe Dubnyk has off nights. I totally believe if the Oilers want success next year they better address this or they will continue to fall just short with a talented roster that should be better than there results this year.

I also believe they lack depth in shutdown defenseman and experienced veteran forward talent. Inject Jaromir Jagr, Andrew Ferrence and Ryan Miller, who could all be available this summer, to this roster subtract Ryan Whitney, Ales Hemsky and Habby, this team would be in a better position for the playoffs without adding to the payroll

quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

Where I am going with this is simple. The focus should not be on the goaltender. The team that the Oil has accumulated is similar to the run and gun 80's team, except for one thing. They don't always run and gun. Especially the gun part.

Ben Bishop will be no saviour. Neither will Devan Dubnyk. I honestly have no informed opinion of Kruger as a coach, but things should be clicking by now, and they are not. When (if) this crew does come around, it's gonna be by the will of the team, just like the 80's.

BTW, the answer to the question in my previous post is '0'. Only 2 or 3 a year in the decade where the Oil dominated every other category of the game? There's your answer.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  09:42:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A couple of things:

Duke, if I misread your point, I apologize. The comments about NJ confused be as they were comfortably in a playoff spot until Brodeur's 8 game losing streak. Again, if I misread, I apologize. It still doesn't mean the Oilers should go after Bishop and I proved that point statistically. The Oilers don't need a new goalie they need a back-up goalie and they don't need one until next year.

Which brings me to Joshua's point. Why start a goalie controversy by bringing in a guy like Bishop?? Why trade a player for a back up goalie?? How many back-up goalies will be UFA's next year?? There are a pile of legit back-up keepers that are UFA's this year. Leighton, Montoya, Garon, Labarbara, Boucher, Ellis, and MacDonald just to name a few. Furthermore, they are some guys the Oilers could bring in that could push Dubnyk too, like Theordore, Smith, Mason, Nabokov, and Emery. Even Backstrom from Minny is there too. This also doesn't take any goalies currently in Edmonton's system into account either.

So, I don't disagree that after this season the Oilers will be in the market for a back-up goalie. The simply answer to your question is that moving a player in a trade to replace a player you don't need until the offseason that you can get as a free agent is not a great hockey move.

If Dubnyk was stinking up the joint or was a UFA I would agree the Oilers could have went harder after a player like Bishop. But Dubnyk is top 10 in save % and has a very respectable GAA on what so many others consider is a horrible defensive team.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  09:46:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bean's, do you truly believe that Ottawa, this year, is a better team that scores more goals than the Oiler's? I believe they have a better defensive system in Ottawa which is why the have had better goal differential success this year, but I dont think an arguement can be made this year based on offensive potential. I think Edmonton could have succeeded this year, but they are not in the playoffs because they have only scored 3 more goals than the senators with a superior forward core and but have allowed 12 more goals against due to a weaker defensive core/system and goaltender depth.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I assumed that as Broduer has lost 8 consecutive starts (the longest of his losing streak of his career) the point was Broduer is the problem. If that wasn't the point, what Duke's original point was is dead wrong as even the best goalies in the world can have rough patches.

Joshua, and all others who keep on flogging the media's dead horse of goalie issue in Edmonton, what are the measures of a 'good' goalie?? I mean, if Ben Bishop is such a stud, why are his numbers virtually identical to Devin Dubnyk's except for wins?? Could it be that Ottawa is a better team who scores more goals than the Oilers??? Hmmm.


Here are the Oilers goalie stats for the past 4 years. Tell me how this differs from any other team in the NHL??

2013 - 2.58 GAA, .921 save %
2012 - 2.67GAA, .912 save %
2011 - 3.03 GAA, .903 save %
2010 - 3.28 GAA, .900 save %

I am not saying in any way that the Oilers have elite goaltending nor have had it for a while. But looking at the fact that the numbers have progressively improved for the past 4 years and this year's numbers are in the top 10 in the NHL, why exactly do you think the Oilers should go out and get a new goalie??

A team getting around 2.5 GAA and over .900 save % normally is not considered to have 'goalie issues.' A team with less than 2.5 goals for per game are known to have scoring issues. Goalies don't help scoring.

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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  11:00:01  Reply with Quote
I think Dubnyk is a decent goalie obviously not an elite goaltender, but no dud either. In looking at the other 29 team's number one goalies (or tandem pairs), I would be hard-pressed to put Dubnyk ahead of 20 teams (and maybe even a few more teams) number one goaltenders. And that's not good enough, especially if you want to make the playoffs. (But I also agree that the Oilers lack 5-on-5 scoring, so goaltending isn't their only problem.)

I watch the Oilers play a lot (maybe all but 2-3 games this season), and in my observations of Dubnyk's play, one of his biggest weaknesses is his puck handling skills.

He's not very good at handling the puck, and his most egregious weakness is that he covers up the puck way too often, and many times unnecessarily. There are so many occasions when a puck is shot toward Dubnyk (even from the blue line on dump in), and with two of his own defensemen closer than the attacking player, Dubnyk freezes the puck.

He obviously knows his puck handling limits (as do the teams dumping in the puck), but when freezing the puck, this costs the Oilers a faceoff in their own end of the rink. And the Oilers are one of the weakest teams in the faceoff circle, so giving up a faceoff in your own end is not a desirable option for this team.

Next time you watch the Oilers play, check it out. And compare this to other goalies. There may be a few other goalies who have a similar weakness, but most nights I watch the Oilers play, Dubnyk freezes the puck more than the opposing goalie. And once again, unnecessarily so.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  11:39:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ughhh.

I'm getting bored and I'm sure people are getting tired of reading these redundant posts so let me end with a difinative comment that is almost impossible to argue.

Not considering the opposition in any way, shape or form. This season:

When the Oilers score 2 or fewer goals their record is:

4W, 13L, 4OTL, 3SOW, 1SOL

When the Oilers score 3 or more goals their record is:

12W, 2L, 0OTL and 1SOL


So, in short, regardless of how many goals the opposition scores, the Oilers WIN 80% of the games they score more 3 or more goals and LOSE 70% of the games when they score 2 or fewer goals. Not only that, when the Oilers score 3 or more goals a game they don't often go to overtime or a shootout. They win baby.


Scoring is the problem and with one of the top PP's in the NHL, it's even strength scoring. Exactly what I have been saying all along. Shove all the need a goalie crap out the door because it is simply wrong. The Oilers need to score more to win more and the history proves it.


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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  11:45:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dont understand. Half of the Goalies you suggested are starting goalies with most likely a higher signing cost than Bishop who is a RFA at the end of this year. Are you saying that Bishop would challenge Dubnyk for the starting position or that the prospect is too rich for the return he would have brought. From my prospective Edmonton is rich in one thing and that is prospects. Also from my prospective, Edmonton needs to bring down the player cost to fit into next years salary cap and compete. A young RFA with potential is exactly the fix Edmonton needs right now. Any goaltender that is a career backup but could challenge for playing time against Edmontons default #1, again IMO, cannot be a bad thing moving into next season. I just dont agree with your arguement here, but you are allowed your opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

A couple of things:

Duke, if I misread your point, I apologize. The comments about NJ confused be as they were comfortably in a playoff spot until Brodeur's 8 game losing streak. Again, if I misread, I apologize. It still doesn't mean the Oilers should go after Bishop and I proved that point statistically. The Oilers don't need a new goalie they need a back-up goalie and they don't need one until next year.

Which brings me to Joshua's point. Why start a goalie controversy by bringing in a guy like Bishop?? Why trade a player for a back up goalie?? How many back-up goalies will be UFA's next year?? There are a pile of legit back-up keepers that are UFA's this year. Leighton, Montoya, Garon, Labarbara, Boucher, Ellis, and MacDonald just to name a few. Furthermore, they are some guys the Oilers could bring in that could push Dubnyk too, like Theordore, Smith, Mason, Nabokov, and Emery. Even Backstrom from Minny is there too. This also doesn't take any goalies currently in Edmonton's system into account either.

So, I don't disagree that after this season the Oilers will be in the market for a back-up goalie. The simply answer to your question is that moving a player in a trade to replace a player you don't need until the offseason that you can get as a free agent is not a great hockey move.

If Dubnyk was stinking up the joint or was a UFA I would agree the Oilers could have went harder after a player like Bishop. But Dubnyk is top 10 in save % and has a very respectable GAA on what so many others consider is a horrible defensive team.

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  11:52:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow you dont say! When a team scores fewer goals they are less likely to win. Can't believe I missed that one. Forget the stats and look at the reality. Edmonton lacks goaltender depth. So did Calgary behind Kipper. I have said that for years. This year they seeked goaltender depth in Calgary and Kipper became expendable due to that and the fact that Calgary needed to reduce salary cost on a team not good enough to make the playoffs. I just dont get your continued arguing against goaltender depth.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

ughhh.

I'm getting bored and I'm sure people are getting tired of reading these redundant posts so let me end with a difinative comment that is almost impossible to argue.

Not considering the opposition in any way, shape or form. This season:

When the Oilers score 2 or fewer goals their record is:

4W, 13L, 4OTL, 3SOW, 1SOL

When the Oilers score 3 or more goals their record is:

12W, 2L, 0OTL and 1SOL


So, in short, regardless of how many goals the opposition scores, the Oilers WIN 80% of the games they score more 3 or more goals and LOSE 70% of the games when they score 2 or fewer goals. Not only that, when the Oilers score 3 or more goals a game they don't often go to overtime or a shootout. They win baby.


Scoring is the problem and with one of the top PP's in the NHL, it's even strength scoring. Exactly what I have been saying all along. Shove all the need a goalie crap out the door because it is simply wrong. The Oilers need to score more to win more and the history proves it.




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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  13:56:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a few points:

1 - How do you know how much Bishop will get next year as an RFA?? How do you know that the Oilers don't have a kid in the minors that might step in as #2?? Do you realize that Khabibulin is still in Edmonton??

2 - When have Leighton, Montoya, Garon, Labarbara, Boucher, Ellis, and MacDonald been #1's for any length of time??

3 - I know that Theordore, Smith, Mason, Nabokov, Backstrom and Emery are or have been #1. You must have missed the part where I said they could push Dubnyk?? Maybe they come in as a #1 and Dubnyk moves to #2??

4 - I appreciate the sarcasm but it proves my point. You can't argue the numbers so you drop to a lower level of argument. Thanks!

5 - I never once denied the need for goaltending depth. I think you must have missed the part where I said the Oilers don't need it today. They have 2 solid goalies. Not elite, but solid. They only need 2. Every team only needs 2. Why would the Oilers add another one now??


Let me ask you a question. The Oilers, with Dubnyk and Khabibulin are in such trouble with goaltending depth and should have chased after Bishop. The Senators have Anderson and Lehner as their tandem and it is a very good tandem. Why are you not critizing the Sens for trading Bishop away?? Lehner is an RFA after next season and Anderson is a UFA after that!! W

What is the difference between the two? One season?? Who cares. The Oilers could sign Denis for one year and not be any worse off.


The numbers don't lie, your argument is horrible. The Oilers needs to score more. That still hasn't changed.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  14:40:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is kinda funny. Beans and i stopped arguing about the Oilers probs (me=defense, Beans=even strength goals for) and now it's on to you (Joshua) vs him on goaltending vs offense!

Crazy, but i have to agree with Beans that while Bishop may have fit what they need, they didn't need him bad enough to have to offer up a good prospect when there are plenty of guys who will be available in the summer, either as a FA or a trade at that point. IF they went after Bishop, it would be like the Leafs going after Luongo. It would signal to their current starter that they're not confident in him. AND, most importantly, we don't know for sure that Edmonton didn't offer up a deal for Bishop, though i really doubt it.

Joshua, i get it, Bishop could have helped the Oilers. But he's still somewhat of an unknown in the league and doesn't really suit the Oilers immediate needs. Their G depth can easily be worked on in the summer.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  15:32:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=420842

Here is a link to the signing for Bishop as I figure between $2-2.5 over 2 seasons in Tampa. Not that I am saying he is a messiah like Bean's has suggested I or others have defended him as, but just as a good goalie with potential who could challenge Dubnyk for the starter position or provide a reliable backup for years to come.

BTW, Jones? I watched him play live this year and was not thrilled with his play, but not hating him either. He is ok, but not an impact player. I would have rather have Conacher to Jones. Conacher's upside offensively is much higher than Jones and Ottawa needed offense for the playoff drive not another 3rd-4th line player, which is one of Ottawa's strengths right now. Edmonton has so much depth on forwards that Jones wouldn't have dented the roster too much. I am not surprised Ottawa went with Tampa if that was the offer.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 04/15/2013 16:00:46
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2013 :  15:44:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know that the news isn't the best place to get your trade rumour info, but it was reported the Oilers were a top contender for Bishop, just no release of what package was offered. And your right I am not arguing Bishop was the man to fix all of Edmonton's problems. I just think he would be a good fit for a team 5 points out of a playoff's considering I am not sold on Dubnyk and I have watched him play alot. We will see how Bishop does next year.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

This is kinda funny. Beans and i stopped arguing about the Oilers probs (me=defense, Beans=even strength goals for) and now it's on to you (Joshua) vs him on goaltending vs offense!

Crazy, but i have to agree with Beans that while Bishop may have fit what they need, they didn't need him bad enough to have to offer up a good prospect when there are plenty of guys who will be available in the summer, either as a FA or a trade at that point. IF they went after Bishop, it would be like the Leafs going after Luongo. It would signal to their current starter that they're not confident in him. AND, most importantly, we don't know for sure that Edmonton didn't offer up a deal for Bishop, though i really doubt it.

Joshua, i get it, Bishop could have helped the Oilers. But he's still somewhat of an unknown in the league and doesn't really suit the Oilers immediate needs. Their G depth can easily be worked on in the summer.

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The Duke
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Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2013 :  14:56:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, its a total waste of time trying to convince Beans what we have been saying on this ( Bishop ) topic.........he does not see the bigger picture we are referring to.........which is ::

A young goalie ( Bishop ) who would have provided goal - tending debt for a young team and who knows, may have become their # 1

Why not take a chance on this young talent ?? What did the oilers have to lose ??.........

All those goalies Beans named are a dime a dozen, spare parts, commodities which can be picked up anytime, anywhere...

But Ben Bishop is an unknown with unlimited ( POSSIBLE ) potential. Its hard to say how good he can become but judging by what he has done in his short NHL tenure......if i were his GM or coach i`d surely be excited having him on my team.

For what the Oilers would have had to give up to have him....they would not have missed even if Bishop didn`t work out......I still believe this kid will be an impact NHL goalie
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OILINONTARIO
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Canada
808 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2013 :  15:08:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, according to Joshua, the Oil did, in fact, make a play for Bishop, which Duke insists they should have. Duke says they wouldn't miss the player(s) they would have to trade in order to get Bishop. Nobody seems to know what the offered return was to the Sens. It is likely that the Oilers' braintrust had interest in acquiring this unproven goaltender for next to nothing, or not at all.

So everybody is right!


The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2013 :  15:31:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey I'd love to talk about what else the Oilers need to be successful. I suggest other players, not goalie depth, who should be free agents in the offseason to provide depth shutdown defenseman and the reliable forward veterans which the Oilers lack. I think this topic is littered with people talking about the lack of production from Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Ryan Smyth and Ryan Whitney (seems to be a Ryan theme here). Horcoff being out for a good chunk of the season didn't help in the horrible faceoff department. Hemsky having a so, so season and now on the injured reserve when they need him most. Habby being injured for a good chunk of the year again didn't help. Ben Eager which I was excited to see playing live and energetic like he did with Chicago, couldn't regain his post concussion form consistantly.

Lack of 5 on 5 scoring was a huge factor in why the Oilers sit on the outside of the playoff picture, but there are reasons the Oilers seemed bottled in there own end playing even strength with a talented forward group. I watch long stretches where the couldn't carry or make a strong play to exit there own zone due to miscue''s and the wrong players playing on the worng lines. Chemistry was not always good, which you could pin down to 3 or 4 struggling players. Hall was a beast this year. Yakapov was, as billed, an offensive threat 90% of the time. Eberle and Gagner where consistant and in Gagner's case had a breakout year. The Oilers lack size to compete with other teams and there star were manhandled on many occasions.
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nuxfan
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3562 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2013 :  21:15:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Bean's, do you truly believe that Ottawa, this year, is a better team that scores more goals than the Oiler's? I believe they have a better defensive system in Ottawa which is why the have had better goal differential success this year, but I dont think an arguement can be made this year based on offensive potential. I think Edmonton could have succeeded this year, but they are not in the playoffs because they have only scored 3 more goals than the senators with a superior forward core and but have allowed 12 more goals against due to a weaker defensive core/system and goaltender depth.




I too believe they have a better defensive system, which in turn allows an otherwise mediocre goalie to shine a little brighter. Is Bishop a good goalie, or is he an average goalie that benefits from the play of the team in front of him? Since Bishop moved to TB, he's been positively ordinary - 2W, 3L, a GAA nearing 3 and a SV% around .900. A far cry from the stellar play we saw out of him in OTT, but then again, TB is not nearly as defensive as OTT. Perhaps he's just settling in, perhaps he's homesick.... or perhaps he's a decent goalie that is now not benefiting from a system.

The Oil need a lot of things before they need to address goaltending - you listed many of the things in your last post - they need veteran forwards to play with the kids. They need 2, possibly 3 more solid defensemen. Put a solid backend and a defensive system in front of Dubnyk, and I would not be surprised to see him shine like Bishop did in OTT.

Goaltending will not be an issue for EDM going forward - Khabibulin's contract is up this year, they will need to dip into the FA market for a veteran goalie to a) backup, and b) mentor Dubnyk. Beans noted that there are several quality goaltenders that will be looking for new homes this summer, EDM will probably try to land one. Or, make a big splash and trade for another incumbent - Miller, Luongo, Neuvirth, Halak/Elliot, Bernier, Nabokov, Hiller, take your pick. EDM should not have any problem solving their goaltending situation for next season.
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 04/15/2013 :  07:22:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, I don't see the big picture?? That's funny.

If this Ben Bishop guy is the messiah, why didn't the Leafs chase after him?? I mean, they were going after other goalies at the deadline, should they also have gone after this goaltending machine?? No, because Bishop is no better than Riemer. So why make a lateral move?? Is that the big picture you are trying to explain to me??

Bottom line is Nux said it best in one statement:

The Oil need a lot of things before they need to address goaltending

That was my point from the start. Their first issue is 5 on 5 scoring. After that is depth in the defensive group followed closely by a quality group of 3rd line checkers. If goaltending depth has to wait until last, so be it. It certainly isn't the reason the Oilers will fail to make the playoffs and is certainly isn't such a pressing issues that the Oilers need to go a chase an RFA with literally the same numbers as their current #1 but with less experience.

Perhaps it is you who should take a look at the big picture. The Oilers sacrificing some other improvement they need to chase an average goalie to solve a problem they do not have is not looking at the big picture.
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Alex116
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5686 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2013 :  08:27:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

\Why not take a chance on this young talent ?? What did the oilers have to lose ??.........For what the Oilers would have had to give up to have him....they would not have missed even if Bishop didn`t work out......


We don't know what the Oilers had to lose, because we don't know what the Sens were asking from them. Obviously it was a deal that the Oilers brass didn't believe was fair. It's easy for you (Duke) to think that the Lightning completely hosed the Sens in the deal for Bishop, but to be honest, more people i spoke to thought it was the other way around. A potential Calder Trophy candidate for an unproven goalie!

We can all have opinions, and i respect yours. But i totally disagree with it and your views on why the Oilers should have pursued him heavily. I'm not a big Dubnyk fan in any way, but something tells me that either there's more to his game than i appreciate, or the Oilers have another plan for moving forward which could include the aquisition of someone a little more proven than what Bishop offered, say Mike Smith?
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 04/15/2013 :  10:24:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The rumor around Edmonton was the Ryan Jones and a 2nd/3rd round pick was offered for Bishop.

I, for one, am glad that deal didn't happen. Not only for the multiple reasons I have already provided but I am a big fan of Ryan Jones. He's an engery guy who will do anything the team asks, he likes playing for the team, and he's a legit 20-30 pt guy with an outside shot at 20 goals. There are lots of guys like this in the NHL but they are also very valuable. The Oilers don't have any other guys that fit the bill that Jones does.

As I said, goalie depth will be an issue in time, but it's not an issue today. One of the things I, as well as others arguing against me, have stated is the Oilers also need consistent and reliable vetern forwards.

Taking away something you need today and tomorrow for something you don't need until tomorrow is pointless.
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Guest4178
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Posted - 04/15/2013 :  11:01:20  Reply with Quote
I'm also a fan of Ryan Jones, but by not signing him or trading him at the trade deadline, the Oilers have left him open to free agency.

In addition to Jones, the Oilers have Ryan Whitney, Lennart Petrell, and Nikolai Khabibulin (and a few others) who will be UFA's at the end of this season.

These players are open to be signed by any other team, and while most teams have a few exposed UFA's, it's the job of the GM to either get them signed or get something in exchange for these players. Especially the players you want to keep.

But maybe this is considered one of Steve Tambellini's failings as the Oilers GM? Or maybe the Oilers (not just Tambellini) believed they needed these players in their lineup to make the playoffs (for which they were in contention at the trade deadline), regardless of whether they lost them at the end of the season?

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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  09:04:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The only reason I think the Oilers need to address goaltending maybe a little sooner, is you can teach a team system of defense easier when the team is confident in front of a goaltender, I think 5 on 5 scoring will go up with a young confident group of talented forwards. You can go thru growing pains and find your game if your team has confidence in there goalie. I am not sold on Dubnyk, stats aside. Habby was the crowd favorite and I think the Oilers have the confidence in Habby, but he isn't always available when needed and likely wont be around next year with what might be available this offseason.

I say start in goal, build a responsible team system of defense and tweak the offense. Basically become like the Kings, Wings, Chicago, Canucks, Wild, Rangers, Boston, Montreal and other successful teams, who have built from the Backend 1st. I agree with Lowe that outside of a few missing pieces, most teams in the NHL would love to switch rosters with the Oilers. But I dare you to list a team in the top 24 of the League in post season contention that would be happy to switch goalies with the Oilers.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  09:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just using the teams you discussed, how can you say all of those teams built from the backend out??

Montreal did, NYR did, Boston kinda did but not really. Minny did. LA built from back and front, meeting in the middle.

Chicago didn't. Niemi was their guy then they switched to Crawford and they use Emery just as much. Kane, Toews, Keith, and Seabrook were all there before the goalie. Vancouver had the Sedins, Kessel, Burrows, et al before Luongo was on site. The Wings?? They haven't had a good goalie since Hasek left town. They also built around key forwards who were there before the goalies.

Building from the back out is ONE way to build and certainly not the only way to build. In fact, I would argue that most successful teams built their core around key forwards and defenders with the goalie being one of the last pieces to the puzzle.
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Cyclonis
Top Prospect



Canada
52 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  10:35:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Oil will miss the playoffs this year and literally mailed it in against Calgary which anyone who has lived in Edmonton knows you can not do. Tamb pays with his job!


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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  12:23:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, well if I say the sky is Blue your gonna say some shade of blue with a different name and point out the white clouds which make the sky multi-colored, never mind the fact that on a clear day the sky is @#$%^&* blue.

Boston had Thomas, Chara and decent defensive core. Between the 2 of them and a young but talented roster found its legs to become the team they are today. Boston kinda found its way, is like saying the Vezina is for a ok to good goalie!!!

Its the same with LA. They may have had good piece's like Kopitar but they didn't gel until they had a reliable starting goalie in Quick and could build a system which brought them success, without worrying that weak goals would cost them the game. Richards, Carter and the other cup winning piece came together after they felt they had what it took to compete.

Detroit didn't have a goalie eh! Cujo, Osgood, Howard, Hasek and a few other goalies I guess weren't around for the remake after Vernon, Federov and a few other members of the 90's winning cup left and they had to remake the team. The reason for the revolving goaltending is because Detroit put an emphasis on having a good goalie and Osgood wasn't considered strong enough for them to make that last step. In the end Osgood may end up being in the hall of fame, but he was an enigma who most dont consider to be as good as his stats show. Which is how I feel about Dubnyk. So argue stats with me. Tell me my opinions wrong but please dont tell me a history lesson if your gonna make up part of the story.



quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Just using the teams you discussed, how can you say all of those teams built from the backend out??

Montreal did, NYR did, Boston kinda did but not really. Minny did. LA built from back and front, meeting in the middle.

Chicago didn't. Niemi was their guy then they switched to Crawford and they use Emery just as much. Kane, Toews, Keith, and Seabrook were all there before the goalie. Vancouver had the Sedins, Kessel, Burrows, et al before Luongo was on site. The Wings?? They haven't had a good goalie since Hasek left town. They also built around key forwards who were there before the goalies.

Building from the back out is ONE way to build and certainly not the only way to build. In fact, I would argue that most successful teams built their core around key forwards and defenders with the goalie being one of the last pieces to the puzzle.

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  12:26:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh yah and Chicago didn't have a goalie during there rise to a powerhouse. Right they had Habby in his prime. Not the oft injured goalie he is now, that the Oilers are trying to milk the last ounce out of. You really don't know what the hell your talking about.
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The Duke
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Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  15:59:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, this whole thing started with just a simple comment that a couple people made about the oilers pursuing what seems to be a good up and coming goalie....what's wrong with that ?....why not ?...nothing against duty but why not pursue bishop ?? Young team, young talented goalie available...go for it.............nobody is saying goaltending is the oilers biggest problem.......god knows its not, we're not stupid, we see holes in the oilers game that far out weigh net minding....mainly defence, team defence, grit and leadership..............the bigger picture I'm talking about is building a winning team and it starts in net.......why rely on just duty when you have plenty of assets to get a second young talent in net , which doesn't come along everyday ............as for the leafs pursing bishop, I wish they did, you can never have enough great potential in net available in your system............well I must say, it's so nice to see a topic which is gaining 2 page attention that doesn't involve my team, the leafs, good to see
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  16:57:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You guys are killing me here...in your haste to roast Beans....(groan), you are throwing 'facts' out faster than Taylor Swift throws out boys!

Khabibulin was the what, part of Chicago's rise to a powerhouse in his prime? Really? They had one good season during Khabibulin's tenure but missed the playoffs 3 out of his 4 seasons there. Since then they've had the goalies mentioned Niemi, Crawford and Emery. Get the facts straight and don't let your beligerence get in the way of your intelligence. It was those less than powerhouse seasons with Khabibulin in net that allowed Chicago to draft Toews and Kane, 3rd and 1st overall in subsequent years, that's where the powerhouse started not from their goalie.

And Duke, well, you're just being yourself, who can fault you for that!

Opinions are just that, and not agreeing with someone else's doesn't make you any more right, regardless of how many times you say it. that's my opinion anyways, and I'm always right.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2013 :  17:41:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm amazed at how far this debate has gone. Downhill that is!!!

Duke / Joshua.... We get it. You guys think the Oiler should have gone after Bishop. Well, if the rumour are true, they did! They didn't get him, nor did ANY other team which may have been in the running for his services, except for the Tampa Bay Lightning! Do we know for sure that the Leafs didn't inquire about him? You (Duke) say that you wish they did? But what would it have cost them? I'm willing to bet it'd have been a solid enough prospect, considering he fetched Conacher, that you'd quickly change your tune!

As far as those other teams you listed, most are so far from the truth it's not funny. Beans mentioned a few, including the Canucks and i just wanted to emphasise exactly what the Canucks did. They thought they had their goalie of the future in Dan Cloutier. He didn't work out so well did he. At the same time, they aquired and watch Naslund and Bertuzzi (along with Morrison) develop into a pretty darn good first line, while during the same period, drafted the Sedin's and let them develop. Talk about building from the front! It wasn't until the Sedin's were leading this team in scoring at PPG paces that they went out and traded for Luongo! NO WAY in the world did they "build" from the goalie out!

Truth is, few teams build that way. Why? Because goalies are much harder to judge than positional players. IT's the main reason they are not often drafted early in drafts. They're much more unpredictable and take longer to develop thus teams don't risk their early picks too often and prefer to find potential "gems" in later rounds and allow them to develop in their system. There are very few teams which "build from the goal out". If Vancouver doesn't win a cup in the next year or two, but hang onto Schneider, they then might be considered starting from the goal out as they will then need somewhat of a rebuild. Even if a few key players were around then, i'd concede that they were doing as such, however, they've not done that in the case of Luongo or the current Schneider.
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The Duke
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Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2013 :  14:40:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, you just posted......goalies are much harder to predict than positional players........didn't. I just post....you can never have enough goaltending depth in your organization for that exact same reason........gee, I think we are saying the same thing
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2013 :  15:11:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This has gone from Oilers sliding to Bishop to Edmonton. I think the point has been made that Bishop aint coming. Showing stats to prove an arguement, but not taking into account other stats when your arguement is being challenged is what got my back up.

I made other points, not goaltending. I just didn't like the continued inaccurate statements made and wasn't gonna let it slide. Oil are likely not playoff bound, which is disappointing, there are a lot of reasons and I will let my arguement rest.
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