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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2164 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  16:56:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Who won the Phil Kessel $64 million / 8 year signing with the Leafs?

Choices:

Phil Kessel
Toronto Maple Leafs

(Anonymous Vote)

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  15:25:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't get how this isn't a 100% poll win for Kessel. I would love to hear from a team won this won side argument. 8 years is incredibly long contract for a game with hockey's physical element. This is clearly a player friendly contract, with lots of risk for the team.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/02/2013 15:26:12
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  05:44:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Refuse to answer this poll until there is a "both" answer.

The world is not a black and white television folks . . .

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  06:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In a relationship there is always one party that receives a greater benefit than the other. The world is always black and white when the choice is one or the other. Regardless of how minute the difference, there is always a difference.



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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  11:01:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

In a relationship there is always one party that receives a greater benefit than the other. The world is always black and white when the choice is one or the other. Regardless of how minute the difference, there is always a difference.







I 100% disagree. Your statement makes no sense, actually, when compared to reality.

Ask Kessel - he will say with 100% honesty that he won.
He gets to stay with what looks to be a developing contender for a long time, in a situation he's very comfortable in, for good market value.

Ask Nonis, the GM, or the BoG - and they will say, the Leafs won.
The Leafs paid their star player - irreplaceable, really - fair market value for the next 8 years, securing the key piece of their developing contender. He's low risk (not an injury risk; very consistent numbers/production) and it pleases the fan base, it pleases the player, and it's not a penny less than he deserves.

Win.
Win.

Triple win, if you include this fan's opinion.
Could be lots more winning to come, too!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  11:18:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Way to say it doesn't sense when compared to reality and then prove your point without using reality. That is fantastic.

If you ask Brian Burke if he would make the trade for Kessel again while the Leafs GM he would say yes.

If you ask Brian Bruke if he would make the trade for Kessel again while not the Leafs GM he would say no.

Win/Loss??? Same situation, different perception.

If what you are saying is clear, as long as the perception of two people is the same, reality is that perspection??

So, what happens if Kessel never gets more than 60 pts in a season and the Leafs never win the Cup. Then who won?? If the Leafs win the next 8 Stanley Cups in a row, then who won??

It is virtually impossible in a relationship of 2 parties agreeing to services for pay that both parties received equal value.





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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2013 :  22:16:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How can anyone say Kessel won??? I mean, he's a Leaf for 8 years? Sheesh......
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  07:29:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Way to say it doesn't sense when compared to reality and then prove your point without using reality. That is fantastic.

If you ask Brian Burke if he would make the trade for Kessel again while the Leafs GM he would say yes.

If you ask Brian Bruke if he would make the trade for Kessel again while not the Leafs GM he would say no.

Win/Loss??? Same situation, different perception.

If what you are saying is clear, as long as the perception of two people is the same, reality is that perspection??

So, what happens if Kessel never gets more than 60 pts in a season and the Leafs never win the Cup. Then who won?? If the Leafs win the next 8 Stanley Cups in a row, then who won??

It is virtually impossible in a relationship of 2 parties agreeing to services for pay that both parties received equal value.



Incorrect. Like, everywhere.

1) I said it "doesn't make sense", as opposed to "doesn't sense". This joke writes itself! Especially considering that when one reads your sentence, even inserting in the "make" you left out in error . . . you are the one that really doesn't make sense, Beans. I proved my point without using reality? Really?!

Please point to which of my statements is not a reality-based opinion. Please point out where Nonis says he is not very happy with the deal. Please point out where Kessel says he is not very happy with the deal. And most importantly . . . please point to the unbiased, expert hockey analyst moderate opinion that states that either Kessel or Nonis(Leafs management) is the loser in all this.

I would cite Bob Mackenzie's commentary on this one (go look it up). You have anyone just as respected who can shed light on my statements not being "reality based"?

2) You mentioning the ex-GM Brian Burke and the Kessel trade is . . . well, it's utterly inconsequential here, as we are talking about the Kessel SIGNING with NONIS as GM.

End of story.

And, sadly . . . as you will probably have some fantastic retort up your sleeve . . . end of reality!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  08:51:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the team and Kessel feel like they both won, so I will agree with you there Slozo. But from an outside perspective, I feel the length of the term for me give the player the edge here. No problem with how you feel. I just don't get the perspective of someone who think the team wins here. They had to overpay Bozak to lockup Kessel.
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
338 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  11:41:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it is an unusual thing to have both parties truly feel like they have won the deal. Privately, behind closed doors I think you would have one party feel like they are the winner and the other will feel shorted or they were forced into the deal due to many other factors. I've spent a lot of time negotiating in my professional career so I can say that if you are an interested party and you really believe it was a fair deal then chances are you came up on the short end of the stick and don't yet know it, and time always reveals a winner.

But that is not what the question is. It is not "which side thinks they won the deal" it is "who won" - and since none of us are inside the locker room, let alone the boardroom, the question implies "who do YOU think won the deal?". Judging by your response JoshuaCanada you think Kessel won. I would agree.

I find that questions that have answers that aren't black and white will lead to most people taking the easy way out and selecting "both", so I am glad that there is no option in this case. Not saying this was you Slozo, clearly you have thought your response through and you put a reasonable argument forward. I would disagree with it however...

If you average out his last 3 years he is a 78 point a season player. $8 million per year is top dollar which should get you 100+ per year at least (FYI he gets $10 million for each of the next 2 years! and $9 million for the following 2 years!) Kessel has never been, and likely never will be, a 100+ point a year player and certainly will never be at that level with any consistency. Therefore, I feel that Kessel won this deal in a big way. I think that on a personal level for him this deal is going to lead to a lot of heartache since he'll never live up to it and the fans will be relentless and unforgiving.

I'd love to be proven wrong here. He is just coming into his prime so he has the potential, but I really don't think so.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
208 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  14:01:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
not sure how you can argue that Kessel will never live up to it. his stats since coming to Toronto have done nothing but improve. he went from a 0.78 point-per-game (PPG) rating, to a 1.0 PPG rating, to a 1.08 PPG rating last year (albeit in a shortened season). he's scored 30, 32, & 37 goals in each of his first three years here, and was on pace to score 34 last year. not to mention that he's becoming more and more of a puck distributor then a shoot first type player, as his assists have gone up every year since he's arrived in Toronto.
though not a strong defensive player, he's clearly no longer a one dimensional player and does back check a lot better then he did three years ago. and before anyone jumps all over his +/- rating, i'd very quickly point you to Stamkos' or St. Louis' +/- numbers.

who won? i'd clearly say Kessel won cuz he's getting paid $64M! anyone who makes that kind of coin is a winner.
but i'd also argue that those who are saying he's not worth it simply like to dump on Kessel. they've got blinders on to the type of player he's developed into. they still think he's the player he was 3 - 4 years ago.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2262 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  14:39:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Right now I would deffinetly say both, the Leafs hold onto their top player who deffinetly would have gotten that contract on the open market, and Kessel gets the money he has earned and the term to provide some stability and security,

now at anytime Toronto could become losers in this situation, Kessel could pack it in and say "yep got my money wonder if Gomez wants to go for a beer on game night?"

or the cap could go down again,

neither is likely to happen but could,

what could happen however is at age 33 and 34 Kessel's production drops and he is not worth the 8 million cap hit, but any other team who signed Kessel in the offseason would have to live with this same scenario, bottom line is Kessel was gettting this money and this term, the only question was from who,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
338 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  15:10:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't paint us all with the same brush Slozo. I don't think he is worth it but I'm not dumping on him for any emotional reasons. I merely have a differing but I think reasonable opinion than you.

I am arguing that the Leafs are paying $10,000,000 this year for someone who has not scored more than 82 points in a season EVER (88 if you extrapolate last season) And has barely averaged more than 65 points in his last 5 seasons.

Is he worth it at $6M? Sure. Perhaps even $6.5M, but he is considerably overpaid if you base it on his past performance. At 26 years of age he has several peak years remaining and he could materialize but that's a hell of a crap shoot at this price, especially when you're dealing with a lowered cap.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  05:11:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ripley

I think it is an unusual thing to have both parties truly feel like they have won the deal. Privately, behind closed doors I think you would have one party feel like they are the winner and the other will feel shorted or they were forced into the deal due to many other factors. I've spent a lot of time negotiating in my professional career so I can say that if you are an interested party and you really believe it was a fair deal then chances are you came up on the short end of the stick and don't yet know it, and time always reveals a winner.

But that is not what the question is. It is not "which side thinks they won the deal" it is "who won" - and since none of us are inside the locker room, let alone the boardroom, the question implies "who do YOU think won the deal?". Judging by your response JoshuaCanada you think Kessel won. I would agree.

I find that questions that have answers that aren't black and white will lead to most people taking the easy way out and selecting "both", so I am glad that there is no option in this case. Not saying this was you Slozo, clearly you have thought your response through and you put a reasonable argument forward. I would disagree with it however...

If you average out his last 3 years he is a 78 point a season player. $8 million per year is top dollar which should get you 100+ per year at least (FYI he gets $10 million for each of the next 2 years! and $9 million for the following 2 years!) Kessel has never been, and likely never will be, a 100+ point a year player and certainly will never be at that level with any consistency. Therefore, I feel that Kessel won this deal in a big way. I think that on a personal level for him this deal is going to lead to a lot of heartache since he'll never live up to it and the fans will be relentless and unforgiving.

I'd love to be proven wrong here. He is just coming into his prime so he has the potential, but I really don't think so.



So you are now judging Phil only on point totals? That seems quite unfair, especially considering that he's also a top sniper in the game. Those kinds of players - dynamic scorers, who are top snipers AND can playmake at an elite level - should be judged on points AND goals, in my opinion.

To your point on people feeling like they won or lost a deal . . . in my experience, it's the opposite, in fact. I think that MOST of the time, people always "convince themselves" - whether true or not - that they won a deal. I think it's quite common, in fact, to have both parties happy.

But usually, I would say that in reality, there is probably one person who benefitted more.

But here again we come to words . . . and I love words. They all have meaning, too, so it DOES matter how we phrase things (otherwise we'd be saying something different, and it would mean something different, no?).

The question was, "who won the signing?"

It implies a loser in the deal, since it gives only one choice as a winner.

So I continue to not be able to answer this poll. To me, not being a family member of Kessel or having anything invested in him, and not being a superfan of Nonis outside of him AND Kessel being a part of the Leafs team I love and support . . . I think that both clearly "win" - ie, they got what they wanted.

Kessel (and his agent) would have gone into the negotiations wanting both a solid, long term deal; some kind of no-trade clause in there; for very good money.

They got everything they wanted.

Leafs management would have gone into this wanting to get a deal done quickly, before the season started; would have wanted to lock up their best and most consistent star player; and would EXPECT to have to pay Phil market value, but obviously would want to avoid 8.5+ money.

They got what they wanted.

My thing is . . . even if it had been 7.5 per or 8.5 per . . . they would both be winners, but one might have won a bit MORE than the other. But both are STILL WINNERS IN THE DEAL.

We can quibble about where that median line is between them, and our opinions probably differ on that. I think they hit it spot on, myself. You might think the middle line was 7.5. Fair enough.

But they both still got what they wanted, to a very large degree. Which means, neither lost, and both won.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  13:58:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said Slozo. The problem with deals like this nowadays is that we as regular folk, can't fathom the money these guys get paid to play a game they not only love, but one that they'd likely all be paying to play at some sort of level if they weren't in the NHL but home making a living like you or I! So, to see this deal, it's easy to say Kessel is laughing all the way to the bank!

BUT, is that fair to say? Let's say the Leafs couldn't get him signed? Then what? Imagine the field day us Leaf haters would be having at Leafers' expense about that Seguin trade then? Then, realize that Kessel would be making his 8+M per year somewhere else. Unfortunately for the Leafs, it's the cost of doing business in today's NHL. I still would have loved to see a guy like this sign for closer to 7 as a bit of a discount to the team, but maybe that extra M is what kept him in TO? Perhaps he was contemplating a change of scenery and let's face it, testing the FA market MUST be pretty appealing to these guys in their mid 20's! Talk about a guaranteed payday!!!

In the end, if I had to answer the poll, I still think Kessel won, but i'd agree that both sides have to some degree. I can't imagine the Leafers reaction had they lost him for nothing and had to look back on the Seguin deal as a complete flop! I don't think what Kessel brings to the table is worth 8M, but not only is it close in todays market, I agree with what I believe it was Beans who said, I have more problem with the term than the dollar figure. 5 years I could have lived with if I were a Leaf fan.

Lastly, it's interesting to compare him to another guy with an 8+M contract. Look at Kessel and look at Corey Perry. Now sure, I know you're gonna say Perry brings more to the table as he's physical, more defensive, etc but it's been mentioned, and not just on here, Kessel's two way game and passing game has improved a lot, so keep that in mind. Now look at these two guys closer.....
# of 50 goal seasons - Perry 1, Kessel 0
# of 40 goal seasons - Perry 0 surprisingly, Kessel 0
# of 30 goal seasons - Perry 3, Kessel 5 (ijn a row) including last season extrapolated over 82
# of 80 pt seasons - Perry 1 (98), Kessel (82 and 88 extrapolated)
# of 70 pt seasons - Perry 3, Kessel 2

Some of these numbers are a little surprising i'm sure. And before someone gives me the stats on # of cups won, let's not forget the situation these guys found themselves in. Perry was drafted into a team ready to win the cup. So too was Kessel, however as we all know, he was traded before that team found the ultimate success and he was moved to a team "building" towards the future. Also, and it's been noted time and time again before, Kessel's linemates in TO have not exactly been of the Ryan Getzlaf variety! Ultimately, looking at the numbers, I was quite surprised to see that Corey Perry, aside from his one 50G/98Pt "career year" / Hart Trophy season, had not managed to top 80pts or 40goals in any other season! This, as a noted "sniper" around the league?

So, having looked at these, for those who think Kessel is overpaid, how about the 8 years (same term as Kessel) at 8.625M (more than Phil) that Perry is getting from the Ducks? I don't recall as much talk about this deal being too big or too long for Anaheim when he signed it. Oh yeah, he's not a Leaf.

I can't believe I just defended Phil Kessel and the Leafs.....

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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2013 :  09:23:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
both sides win.

kessel gets a nice contract and the leafs don't lose one of their best players to free agency at seasons end... (see parise, suter.)

66 is > than 99
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  05:33:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And just to add to Alex's well-researched point . . . a free agent superstar ALWAYS gets more money, always gets top dollar. So if Perry had become a UFA at the same time as Kessel, I could see Kessel getting 8.5, Perry getting more, closer to 9. It's the whole reason the Leafs HAD to pay so damn much for Clarkson . . . other teams actually outbid the Leafs! You have to overpay essentially for a free agent, it's the cost of doing business.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  08:33:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

And just to add to Alex's well-researched point . . . a free agent superstar ALWAYS gets more money, always gets top dollar. So if Perry had become a UFA at the same time as Kessel, I could see Kessel getting 8.5, Perry getting more, closer to 9. It's the whole reason the Leafs HAD to pay so damn much for Clarkson . . . other teams actually outbid the Leafs! You have to overpay essentially for a free agent, it's the cost of doing business.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



The Canucks managed to get both Garrison and Hamhuis as UFA's in years where both were highly sought after with multiple offers. Both were signed to contracts that were not considered overpayments (certainly in salary, you can debate length of deal for Garrison). Free agent season should not change a team's perception of a player value, and the fact that teams tend to overpay is a problem, not a solution to a problem.

I do not think that Perry or Kessel (or Getzlaf for that matter) would have been able to command higher than they got by staying with their respective teams. All are good players, but there are very few teams that can pony up that kind of money for a single player. I look at Parise and Suter, and Weber as examples - 3 elite players that became free agents in the previous off-season. Granted, contract rules were different under the old CBA, and all 3 players got front-loaded contracts and lengths that are no longer legal. But in regards to annual cap hit, I don't think any of those players got much more than their perceived worth at the times they signed.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  11:18:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

And just to add to Alex's well-researched point . . . a free agent superstar ALWAYS gets more money, always gets top dollar. So if Perry had become a UFA at the same time as Kessel, I could see Kessel getting 8.5, Perry getting more, closer to 9. It's the whole reason the Leafs HAD to pay so damn much for Clarkson . . . other teams actually outbid the Leafs! You have to overpay essentially for a free agent, it's the cost of doing business.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



The Canucks managed to get both Garrison and Hamhuis as UFA's in years where both were highly sought after with multiple offers. Both were signed to contracts that were not considered overpayments (certainly in salary, you can debate length of deal for Garrison). Free agent season should not change a team's perception of a player value, and the fact that teams tend to overpay is a problem, not a solution to a problem.

I do not think that Perry or Kessel (or Getzlaf for that matter) would have been able to command higher than they got by staying with their respective teams. All are good players, but there are very few teams that can pony up that kind of money for a single player. I look at Parise and Suter, and Weber as examples - 3 elite players that became free agents in the previous off-season. Granted, contract rules were different under the old CBA, and all 3 players got front-loaded contracts and lengths that are no longer legal. But in regards to annual cap hit, I don't think any of those players got much more than their perceived worth at the times they signed.



Way to misquote me and misrepresent what I said.

I never said Kessel's value AS A PLAYER changed due to free agency . . . I said his PRICE changes. And subsequently, when you are a superstar player about to go into free agency, your price rises a bit too.

Garrisson and Hamhuos are not compareables.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  12:48:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Way to misquote me and misrepresent what I said.

I never said Kessel's value AS A PLAYER changed due to free agency . . . I said his PRICE changes. And subsequently, when you are a superstar player about to go into free agency, your price rises a bit too.

Garrisson and Hamhuos are not compareables.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Way to not understand what I was saying...

The discussion around "overpaying for superstars" went out the window when you brought Clarkson into the mix. I agree that Kessel vs Garrison or Hamhuis is not relevant, but Clarkson vs Garrison/Hamhuis is. All 3 are above average players that happened to hit UFA at times when their particular skillset was going to be in high demand and attract multiple offers. All did get multiple offers. General consensus is that TOR overpaid for Clarkson - as you suggested is the norm, while consensus is that VAN paid around fair value if not less for Hamhuis and Garrison - which I suggested should be the norm.

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/10/2013 12:49:53
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  15:15:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would suggest that in any negotiation and one party is Toronto, there is a stigma, whomever they sign potentially is an overpayment. Do I agree when it comes to Kessel, no. I think he was signed at or close to his market value. But in no way can someone claim that Toronto got Kessel at a steal or hometown discount, with the term and price at the max. Especially if he has peaked or has valleys in his performance. Should his performance continue to climb or stay level for 8 years Toronto comes out smelling like roses.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  06:47:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I would suggest that in any negotiation and one party is Toronto, there is a stigma, whomever they sign potentially is an overpayment. Do I agree when it comes to Kessel, no. I think he was signed at or close to his market value. But in no way can someone claim that Toronto got Kessel at a steal or hometown discount, with the term and price at the max. Especially if he has peaked or has valleys in his performance. Should his performance continue to climb or stay level for 8 years Toronto comes out smelling like roses.



Agreed 100%.

Toronto definitely didn't get any kind of deal or a "steal" in the Kessel deal, but I don't think they overpaid either.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  14:54:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's not even shocking anymore how (Moderator Edit) people become when they are passionate about something.

Case in point, Slozo uses the word 'reality' and then cites if you ask what Kessel or Nonis 'think' of the deal. Only (Moderator Edit) would think that either party would say anything other than they like the deal. And it's completely daft to think either opinion is reality.

The simple fact or reality of the situation is that in an agreement between two parties where service is rendered for payment it is impossible to achieve a perfect balance. Hence, the reality of the situation is that both parties can not win. Someone wins and someone loses. It may be closes, but there is always a winner and loser. This is not a partnership where both parties share equally in risk and reward. Kessel is guaranteed his reward. Are the Leafs?

I'm fully expecting Slozo to respond with some lengthy diatribe filled with backhanded comments and ill informed opinion yet again. (Moderator Edit)




Edited by - leigh on 10/15/2013 15:02:01
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2013 :  15:14:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the same vain, who won the Alfredsson deal from 2009. I'll bet you both parties have differing opinions on that one too You know I had to poke the bear (I mean Bean here)

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

It's not even shocking anymore how stupid people become when they are passionate about something.

Case in point, Slozo uses the word 'reality' and then cites if you ask what Kessel or Nonis 'think' of the deal. Only an idiot would think that either party would say anything other than they like the deal. And it's completely daft to think either opinion is reality.

The simple fact or reality of the situation is that in an agreement between two parties where service is rendered for payment it is impossible to achieve a perfect balance. Hence, the reality of the situation is that both parties can not win. Someone wins and someone loses. It may be closes, but there is always a winner and loser. This is not a partnership where both parties share equally in risk and reward. Kessel is guaranteed his reward. Are the Leafs?

I'm fully expecting Slozo to respond with some lengthy diatribe filled with backhanded comments and ill informed opinion yet again. It comes with the territory when you are dealing with ignorance.






Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/11/2013 15:17:10
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  06:12:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, both parties will have a different opinion. Regardless of what side of the argument you are on the point remains the same, both parties can not win. One wins and one loses.



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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  17:19:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, from a non-business perspective, if one absolutely has to answer this type of question, don't they often have to answer in favor of the player who gets played millions and millions of dollars for playing a game?

From a business perspective, the question is did the Leafs pay too much (or from Phil's point of view, could he have gotten a penny more)? Mathematically, Beans is right. Chances are someone paid a penny too much or received a penny too little. But that doesn't mean both sides can't be pleased as punch with the deal.

And the answer has two time points: now (current market value) and future (unknown - what will Phil do to the benefit of the Leafs organization during the term of this contract). This latter point is where things like, well, contribiutions to a Cup (or at least contributions to good team performance) are important. For this we have to wait and see what Phil produces for the team in general in the years to come. It's looking promising at this point, but only time will tell.

Overall, if I absolutely have to answer this question, my gut feeling (based in part on Ripley's point) is that Kessel wins.


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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  22:11:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Yes, both parties will have a different opinion. Regardless of what side of the argument you are on the point remains the same, both parties can not win. One wins and one loses.







Is that your way of saying Beans,

"slozo, even though you have won every single bet every single year between the two of us; and even though I am now patently avoiding another annual bet this year to save a scrap of dignity for myself; trust me, I am right this time, and you are wrong!"

Did I . . . get that about right?

...

sorry, you'll have to speak up a bit.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  15:34:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hows she cuttin everyone ??.....havent been on for awhile....we are trying to build another oil platrorm here in newfoundland, a second gravity base structure will will go offshore....busy at work, how is every1 ??

Beans, ...Slozo is right about Kessel, Boston was right drafting kessel, Brian Burke was right trading for krssel......the only people who ARE wrong about kessel are his ( and still are ) nay - sayers...

This player his awesome....his skill, speed, shot, goals, assists, points and play-making ability and even his back-checking ( these days ) make him one of the leagues TOP NOTCH elite players and he is worth every cent he received...( in accordance with other players salaries around the NHL )

You posted earlier...( Beans ) ....what if kessel drops to 60 points a season ??.....the world is full of what if`s Beans.......i don`t think this is a concern right now or for the next several seasons either.......kessel can put up those point totals from his arse
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The Duke
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Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  15:46:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leafs 5 and 1.....can`t wait to see David Clarkson....cough cough ( Gary Roberts ) in the lineup...future is bright for leaf fans
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  23:10:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The fact that this is even up for discussion - that Kessel is worth 8 million... or maybe it should have "only" been 7 million - the fact that this is now the discussion shows me two things:

1. Kessel truly is, now, finally, getting the recognition as an elite superstar in the NHL.

2. The Leafs have their Franchise Player. Looks like the Leafs won the Kessel trade after all... :)

(Is Seguin such a "franchise player"? Imagine Seguin at 8 over 8...)





"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Beans15
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Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  07:51:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Yes, both parties will have a different opinion. Regardless of what side of the argument you are on the point remains the same, both parties can not win. One wins and one loses.







Is that your way of saying Beans,

"slozo, even though you have won every single bet every single year between the two of us; and even though I am now patently avoiding another annual bet this year to save a scrap of dignity for myself; trust me, I am right this time, and you are wrong!"

Did I . . . get that about right?

...

sorry, you'll have to speak up a bit.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Are you insane? Seriously, how did you get that from me saying judge exact opposite thing?

You are dead wrong. It is unbelievable how ignorantly wrong you are. It's laughable how foolish your argument is.

And (Moderator edit) bringing up stuff that is completely irrelevant, stay on topic. This is about the value of the contract. No one is arguing if Kessel is elite or if he's better than Seguin or anything else.

The world is not what if's Duke. The world is really clear on this one. Phill Kessel is due to make the 8th highest salary in the NHL. He is now in a group with Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Staal, et al. These are guys that have won Stanley Cups, Harts, Art Ross, and are first team all stars year after year.

Has Kessel does any of that? Nope. He's not a top 10 player in this league. You can get as excited sand diluted as you want about how great he is, but he simply isn't good enought I warrant the deal he got.




Edited by - leigh on 10/15/2013 15:20:17
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  08:56:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
His contract was earned. He isn't on the level of the other guys for accomplishments, but pure goal scoring talent and some stats, he is as important to Toronto as the guy you mentioned to there own teams. This is a contract that you will look back in 2 years and has the potential for "I told you so". It might be that Kessel stays at his current performance level and the contracts of the other stars are higher or his performance increases, like it has for the last 3-4 years, which he would outright earn it. Either way the only way he doesn't earn it is if he underperforms, which to this date he hasn't done. Its possible he underperforms in the future, but the Kessel contract is not as bad as some are making it out to be, just risky for the term length.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  09:11:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
This player his awesome....his skill, speed, shot, goals, assists, points and play-making ability and even his back-checking ( these days ) make him one of the leagues TOP NOTCH elite players and he is worth every cent he received...( in accordance with other players salaries around the NHL )


Well Duke, you may have nailed it right here! Kessel is actually prob underpaid in fact. I mean, If David Clarkson is worth 5.25M over 7, surely Kessel's gotta be worth more than he signed for? Man, the Leafs must have got a deal afterall?
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  14:33:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans: "Has Kessel does any of that? Nope. He's not a top 10 player in this league..."

...actually Beans, Kessel IS a Top Ten Player in this League. His stats back it up. And, I think that's what everyone is arguing here.

For fun Beans, can you name us the Top 20 players in the League? (In order, in your opinion of course).
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  15:15:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Beans and Ripley 100%. I won't rehash all their points, but his worth is not at the level of the top producers in the league. $10/8 million for a guy that has never scored over 82 points - and going into a lower-cap year is madness. But I expect this from today's GM's I guess. You can see him trending up and maybe he'll reach the 90 point mark but he hasn't done that yet so it's a big gamble in my eyes.

And to all those guys that cry "You just don't like the Leafs!" Stop it please, it is insulting. As an adult I am able to separate my personal feelings from my logic.

Now one thing I will say is that a 'bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush'. TML might have overpaid for him but the costs involved in going out and getting talent and potentially not landing a big fish to replace Kessel are huge (and it's risky). Locking him down was easier and maybe more cost effective than hunting down an equivalent or better forward. Don't read this as me thinking Kessel is worth it. So, in closing and to make sure I keep this on point, KESSEL WON THIS DEAL!!! (there are never ever 2 winners in a deal - even if it is just pennies Andyhack )

Edited by - leigh on 10/15/2013 17:09:11
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  20:24:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock, you would be correct if Kessel was in the top ten in every NHL stat. If you said he was one of the top offensive players in the NHL, I would likely agree. But I said top ten players. That means being able to do more than score goals and points. It means that in some cases, a player will score less but be a better player. To contract, Chris Kunitz has as many points as Kessel last a season, was +33 better. Career wise, Kunitz has 409 pts in 587 games (0.69ppg) and Kessel has 387 pts in 511 games (0.75ppg). Kunitz won a Cup and was a 1st team all star last season. Kunitz also signed for 1/2 of what Kessel is making.

Now, I get that Kunitz is 34 and Kessel is 27 or whatever. I am not trying to say that Kunitz is a better player and I would take Kessel over Kunitz with little thought. The point is twofold: be careful of using stats because it is easy to see them flipped and there is no way Kessel is worth $8 million when comparables are making 1/2-2/3 that salary.

Now, you want my top 20 players? Based on today's abilities and ignoring age I would put my top 20 as:

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsuyk, Zetterburg, Sedin, Sedin, Thornton, E. Staal, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Giroux, St. Louis, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Tavares, Backstrom.

There are 20 players that I would take over Kessel and notice I didn't name a single goalie or defensemen. Add in another 10 or so goalies and 15 defensemen and that puts Kessel around #50. Don't get me wrong, he is an elite scorer. But I don't think he is a blue chip guy that you can build a winner around and I don't think he should be the 8th highest paid player in the NHL.




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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  11:10:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are quite of few forwards I would put equal to Kessel, but not ahead of him in talent or pay. Some of the one suggested have inferior stats, but may have other attributes which would allow them to receive equal pay. The bolded ones below I think are of similar value even though not all ackomplishments, stats and abilities are equal.

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsuyk, Zetterburg, Sedin, Sedin, Thornton, E. Staal, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Giroux, St. Louis, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Tavares, Backstrom.

I get you point of Goalies and Defenseman, but I would never pay $8 million for a defenseman. I don't care if its Karlsson, Letang, Chara or Weber, even though some receive this pay. Same with goalies. Some of the best of both positions are signed for under $5-6 per year. I would say on the list of top 20 pay players 80% would be goal scoring forwards, which is Kessel's specialty. That's the point, of the goal scoring forwards what are there values as compared to Kessel and I think if you look back 2 years or longer from now, you will see this is not the overpay you have suggested.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Crock, you would be correct if Kessel was in the top ten in every NHL stat. If you said he was one of the top offensive players in the NHL, I would likely agree. But I said top ten players. That means being able to do more than score goals and points. It means that in some cases, a player will score less but be a better player. To contract, Chris Kunitz has as many points as Kessel last a season, was +33 better. Career wise, Kunitz has 409 pts in 587 games (0.69ppg) and Kessel has 387 pts in 511 games (0.75ppg). Kunitz won a Cup and was a 1st team all star last season. Kunitz also signed for 1/2 of what Kessel is making.

Now, I get that Kunitz is 34 and Kessel is 27 or whatever. I am not trying to say that Kunitz is a better player and I would take Kessel over Kunitz with little thought. The point is twofold: be careful of using stats because it is easy to see them flipped and there is no way Kessel is worth $8 million when comparables are making 1/2-2/3 that salary.

Now, you want my top 20 players? Based on today's abilities and ignoring age I would put my top 20 as:

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsuyk, Zetterburg, Sedin, Sedin, Thornton, E. Staal, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Giroux, St. Louis, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Tavares, Backstrom.

There are 20 players that I would take over Kessel and notice I didn't name a single goalie or defensemen. Add in another 10 or so goalies and 15 defensemen and that puts Kessel around #50. Don't get me wrong, he is an elite scorer. But I don't think he is a blue chip guy that you can build a winner around and I don't think he should be the 8th highest paid player in the NHL.







Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/16/2013 11:57:14
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  14:58:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I certainly think that making the NHL`s TOP TEN scoring list in back to back years ( which kessel has done ) should earn you some $$$$$

This giy will be a major contributor to the USA olympic team this time round, you wait amd see.....on a big ice surface he will excel ( hope he doesn`t kill Canada )

Beans of course kessel hasn`t won awards or cup rings...yet ......look where he has played....lol

Things are about to change my friend....you wait and see....the leafs WILL make the final four THIS year...no problem
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2013 :  18:38:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

The fact that this is even up for discussion - that Kessel is worth 8 million... or maybe it should have "only" been 7 million - the fact that this is now the discussion shows me two things:

1. Kessel truly is, now, finally, getting the recognition as an elite superstar in the NHL.

2. The Leafs have their Franchise Player. Looks like the Leafs won the Kessel trade after all... :)

(Is Seguin such a "franchise player"? Imagine Seguin at 8 over 8...)





"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman

Don't wanna rehash the Kessel trade too much, but don't look now as Sequin has 7 points in 5 games compared to Kessel's 8 in 7 games. Sequin to this point looks like the player who was drafted just behind Hall. See you in 75-77 more games to review the comparison now that Sequin is getting top 6 minutes with quality linemates. Boston's 3rd line is not the best place to highlight his talents.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  20:41:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Corey Perry. 8.625 million. Zero Points.
Ryan Getzlaf. 8.250 million. Zero Points.

Phil Kessel. 5.4 million. Hat Trick. The W. 1st Star.

There are some things in Life that are worth paying for. (For everything else, there's MasterCard.)

Hehehe. Sorry... I couldn't resist.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  21:39:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans' List:

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsuyk, Zetterburg, Sedin, Sedin, Thornton, E. Staal, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Giroux, St. Louis, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Tavares, Backstrom

...

Thank you Beans! But, I would disagree.

Look at this link: http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

NHL Points Leaders over the Past 3 Seasons:

1. Steven Stamkos
2. Evengi Malkin
3. Martin St. Louis
4. Claude Giroux
5. Phil Kessel

Yes. In fact, only 4 players have scored more points than Kessel over the past 3 seasons. Yes, Kessel has more points in the last 3 seasons than Crosby. Yes, Kessel has more points in the last 3 seasons than Ovechkin. Yes, Kessel has more points than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, E. Staal, Kopitar, P. Kane, Tavares, Getzlaf, Perry...

Phil Kessel has been over a point-a-game over the past three seasons. Plus, Kessel is 4th in goals over the past three seasons.

Okay.

Okay, so one season might be a fluke. But over three??

Really, this isn't a question - or even a debate. If you are asking yourself if Kessel really IS worth 8 million - are aren't asking the right question. The right question is:

Is ANYONE worth 8 million over 8 seasons?

Is Ovechkin? Is Crosby?? Because I'm looking at a stat sheet here. And it says that Phil Kessel has outscored both of those bums over the past three seasons. E. Staal. A. Kopitar. J. Toews. Kessel. Kessel. Kessel...

If you would like to debate if ANYONE should ever get paid that kind of money - fine. I can't really comment on that in this state of the world and the inequalities surrounding the distribution of wealth etc etc. But, we are talking about the Hockeyverse here. The NHL. Phil Kessel has been a Top 5 player in the past three seasons. So... he should get paid as such? No??

This is just getting ridiculous. Look at the stats. First you cherry-picked Kunitz' insane season from last year (I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate my cherry-picking Brad Richards or Scott Gomez - those are way too easy). But then, you didn't even mention Corey Perry. Alex ran an excellent comparison of those two players (Perry vs. Kessel). Nobody was contemplating Perry's 8.625 million-a-year contract - and yet, Kessel has outperformed Perry over the past three seasons (including Perry's Hart Trophy Season). So... ?

To the argument that "Kessel hasn't won a Hart, a Rocket Richard, or a Cup..." I say only, "...yet." "...yet." That really is all you need to say there. He's 26-years-old.

I understand that in your mind - it just doesn't fit that Kessel is an elite player. I get that. He's a winger. He's kind of small. He doesn't exude fear. Kind of shrugs his shoulders. Wears a cap down low over his eyes. Looks at his feet when he speaks. He has a lack of confidence in himself - just like everyone else! Haha!! When you look at Ryan Getzlaf, you think, "damn, now that's a Hockey Player." When you look at Phil Kessel, it's always kind of like, "THAT guy!?"

But the stats are starting to make this argument look ridiculous. Come on, even you have to admit that. At this point, I'm convinced that all of you Kessel-doubters out there are just holding on desperately to some sort of a fantasy world where Phil Kessel gets a season-ending injury, just so that you all can say, "See! I told you so!!". And yet... And yet... He just keeps scoring.

The horror is happening for Kessel-doubters. Because the slowdown they have been talking about for the past five seasons is still not happening. He's not slowing down. In fact, he keeps scoring. He keeps getting better. And better. And better. He has gotten steadily better ever since he became a Leaf - five seasons ago.

I don't think there is a debate over whether Kessel "deserves" this contract or not. The debate should be about "Why do you guys doubt Kessel so much"? Like, really? What did he ever do to deserve this type of stigma against him?? What does he have to do to shed the doubters???? He's 5th in League-Scoring over the past 3 seasons. What else do you want from him!?!?
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