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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2013 :  21:10:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is off topic... but omg. Did you guys just see that shift by Sedin-Sedin-Kesler-Hamhuis-Bieksa (?). That was like two minutes of pure domination leading up to a beaut of a goal. Fantastic!

Anyway, I just thought of you guys when I saw that.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2013 :  21:55:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex, you can call my post silly if you want but those numbers against the bruins are correct. I picked that segment of hockey because it was a situation where a players true grit really shows.......it was a tough series for all involved and showed a players true colours when it was all on the line.



I have no doubt they are correct. I just don't put any faith in the comparison. If it helps you sleep at night looking at a 7 game stretch 3 years apart against 2 different teams in 2 different circumstances, and drawing a conclusion that fits your beliefs, then power to you.

quote:

The sedins showed what they are all about in a real tough series.....Boston ain't San Jose...what the hell has San Jose won ?....ever ?.....

When the chips were down they choked.....played like p****s...this is why the Canucks will never win a cup with them....and you know it.



Up until that series, what had Boston won? And SJ is plenty tough, although you probably don't see them much. You can poo-poo them all you like Duke, but in the end, the Sedin's were a huge reason why VAN even made it to the finals. They didn't have a magnificent finals, nor did the rest of the team, yet they still took BOS to 7 games. Without the Sedin's there probably were no finals for VAN, perhaps not even a playoffs.

quote:

Don't give me this what has kessel won ?...the leafs are just building a great team....he hasn't had his shot yet....ask this question in 5 years or so......the sedins had their shot and got pushed around like rag dolls.



He hasn't had his shot? He's been there 5 years, what is he waiting for? Guys that make 8M a year - in other words, "superstars" - should be taking and making their shots, not waiting for their shots.

I think I'll be waiting a lot longer than 5 years to ask this question....

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/28/2013 21:58:38
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2013 :  22:25:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

ROFL.

This debate is ridiculous.

Nuxfan, what am I supposed to do? Find players who have hit PPG status before 27, only to increase it later on?

Pavel Datysuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Martin St. Louis, Jarome Iginla, Ray Whitney, Steve Yzerman, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Gordie Howe, Mike Bossy (check out HIS career stats for a treat btw), Marcel Dionne, Jaromir Jagr, Teemu Selanne, Daniel Alfredsson, Brendan Shanahan, Brett Hull (ish), Bobby Hull(!), Phil Esposito, Keith Tkachuk, Mike Modano, Ron Francis, Rod Brind'Amour, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Mark Recchi, Ray Bourque, Bryan Trottier, Guy Lafleur, Maurice Richard(!), Dave Andreychuk, Peter Stastny, Alex Kovalev, Al MacInnis, Larry Murphy, Patrik Elias, Sergei Federov, Pierre Turgeon, Michel Goulet, Mats Sundin (why not include him on this list? After 27 he had 8 straight seasons with over 70 points. Not his "best" season. But. 8 straight seasons with 70+ points. I HOPE that Kessel achieves that.).

So, that's a couple of players.

We'll have to see about:
Alex Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby, Evengi Malkin, Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Taylor Hall, Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaf... &&&& of course... Phil Kessel.

I think it's a good bet. I think that Kessel is worth every penny.


Crock, you completely failed Nux's test. Heck, half the guys you named were on my list of guys who didn't have career years in the 27-30 period so chances are they weren't PPG players before then who improved after!!! That wouldn't make a lot of sense. I think you might have misunderstood Nux's challenge to you?

Oh, and he randomly checked a few, so I checked a few others.....
Guy Lafleur - Age 25 and 26 were his best years. 27 and 28 were good as well, but he certainly didn't have the 25point increase you predict of Kessel in that time period!!!
Michel Goulet - Career best 121 at age 24. Very good 106pt season at 28, but from 29 on, never hit PPG again.
Pierre Turgeon (why not go with another French player? lol) Career best 58 goals and 132 points at age 23. Barely a PPG player at ages 27-30.
Where did you come up with these names? You couldn't be more wrong as none of the 6 that we've mentioned fit the criteria nuxfan was looking for. The way you mention at the beginning of your post what he's looking for tends to make me think you understood, however, your examples are far from what would fit the question??? I'm, confused at your responses.
Personally I believe that Kessel will improve on his PPG status now, however, not by a ton and certainly not nearly by the 25 points you predict a few years from now.

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight


I like that Kessel went over to the bench to get a stick. What are you going to do with no stick? I hate watching players with no stick skating with their wrists low to the ice like it's intimidating or effective or anything like that. No stick = useless. Get off the ice / get a stick. Anyway, like I said, it wasn't like there was a "major" threat there. It's a Power Play. Geez. You guys are critical (of only Kessel it seems). WWDSD? (What would Daniel Sedin do?)


You'd make a poor coach. Players without a stick can still tie up a guy enough to eliminate them from the play. In this case, Kessel could have tackled the guy and given up a PP which they may have killed? Better than the result they got isn't it??? AND, you may not think a 2 on 1 is a "major threat", but I think most coaches would. I'm shaking my head at what you must consider a major threat! As for WWDSD? Well, as a guy who's actually scored 40+ goals in an NHL season, he'd have prob just scored at the other end thus not putting himself in the position of having to choose between defending without a stick, or going and getting one? I kid of course. I don't know what he'd have done to be honest? But he's not the one who's got a history of being a "sniper only" nor does he have an 8yr 8 million dollar deal that's being discussed, so it's not all that relevant is it?

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight


I'll give you one more reason why The Leafs "win" this contract. Jersey sales. #81 Kessel jerseys are FLYING off the shelves.


Really? You're gonna use this to justify his deal? Okay......








[/quote]

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2013 :  09:11:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyway, kessel is worth his weight in gold in Toronto, in my opinion. He is a special player which doesn't come along every day and the leafs are very lucky to have him. Excellent job by nonis to lock him up for 8 years.

You disagree nuxfan that kessel hasn't had his shot yet ?....come on,...really...have you seen the leaf teams he has been on for the last several seasons ???.....playing with a 3rd line centre on a nightly basis......kessels production , considering these facts , make him one of the leagues top elite forwards.

I'll ask you all a question.....how many NHL forwards can be a ppg player and be in top 10 scoring in 2 consecutive seasons with bozak as their centre ??

Going off topic........nuxfan and Alex .....why didn't van. Re-sign mason Raymond ??......big loss for the Canucks and big gain for the leafs.....damn I love his play for the leafs so far....he plays the game so smart, plus with speed and skill.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2013 :  10:21:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And he will continue to play with a third-line center. The Leafs are maxed out as far as cap space mainly due to the Clarkson and Kesel contracts. And don't say Kadri is the #1 center the team needs. He is filling in while Bozak is out.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2013 :  10:34:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What you forgot to mention Oilinontario was the fact that the 3rd line center Duke refered to in Bozak's, has a very large contract and is also a contributing factor to why Toronto wont likely be able to match Kessel with a premier #1 centerman. For the record Kadri might develop into a decent #1 centerman and should he be paired with Kessel, they are likely to see decent offensive stats together. I say should because it is unlikely they will be paired long term due to neither being proficient in 2way play. First full game pairing of those two is happening in the next few games as Bozak is out with an injury and Kadri has been promoted to the top line for the duration. Heres hoping they can prove the pairing is good, to justify a long term pairing.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2013 :  21:25:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm going to go ahead and guess that you guys *didn't* watch the Leafs-Oilers aka "Phil Kessel Show" last night. Probably too busy trolling hockeydb.com to see that Michel Goulet "only scored 106 points when he was 28". Wooooowww.

Alex, exactly what "test" did I fail? I thought the question was: which players achieved PPG before 27; and then did so later in their careers. Wasn't that the question?

Are you guys applauding yourselves because Michel Goulet "only" scored 106 points when he was 28? Peter Forsberg had his best year at 24 - oh, and then went on to have a million great seasons after that until his retirement - but this is all supposed to mean something?

You guys *really* missed the point. I never said that Phil Kessel was a "lock" for a progression. I said that he was an "extremely good bet". And, if you had actually been watching hockey last night like I did - you would be nodding your heads and agreeing with me. Phil Kessel COMPLETELY dominated last night. Oh, and look at that. 2nd in League Scoring. Thanks for coming out.

I said that I'm going to guess that Kessel has a 110 point season in 2016-2017 - but I fully admit that I could be way wrong on that one.

So...... if Kessel goes the way of Mats Sundin, and "only" has 8 straight seasons of 70-point + hockey... ummm. Yeah. This is a waste of my time.

Alex, do you play hockey? It doesn't sound like it. I'd rather not make any judgements despite your repeated vitriol directed at me... But come on. Dude. It wasn't a 2-on-1. It was a guy coming down on the wing in a SHORT-HANDED situation. You give the guy the shot from the outside. 96 times out of 100 the goalie makes the save. Life goes on. I can't see how you are taking Kessel to task on this. It was one play - a nice play by the opposition - and it meant nothing. There's no analysis to be done there. Nothing to discuss. Kessel's stick broke. Dubinsky made a nice shot. Life goes on.

Here you guys are - in the midst of completely eating your own dirty socks for breakfast. Kessel is on a veritable tear. 10 points, 6 goals in 4 games. And you guys are LITERALLY grasping at straws - "oooh aaah... Kessel broke his stick blah blah blah." "Brendan Shanahan was merely a PPG Hall-of-Famer for the rest of his career (but his BEST season was when he was 25) blah blah blah." You sound absolutely ridiculous.

And yes Alex. I realize that I do too. I am responding to this insanity.

Just, do us all a favour. Okay? Please. Watch the highlights from last night. The Game is now on the NHL GameCentre vault entitled "The Phil Kessel Show". If that wasn't proof enough for you... well, then I can't help you. And, I want to be in your Pool. I'll be picking Phil Kessel in the Fourth round while you're still jumping up and down because you drafted OEL.

Would you like to tell us how many points you think Kessel will finish with at the end of this year?









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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2013 :  22:25:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you guys *didn't* watch the Leafs-Oilers aka "Phil Kessel Show" last night. Probably too busy trolling hockeydb.com to see that Michel Goulet "only scored 106 points when he was 28". Wooooowww.

You're correct! I didn't watch the game tonight. Luckily for me, i'm not force fed midweek Leafs vs Oilers games like I am Leaf games pretty much EVERY Saturday, cuz as a hockey fan, I prob would have watched!

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Alex, exactly what "test" did I fail? I thought the question was: which players achieved PPG before 27; and then did so later in their careers. Wasn't that the question?

Are you guys applauding yourselves because Michel Goulet "only" scored 106 points when he was 28? Peter Forsberg had his best year at 24 - oh, and then went on to have a million great seasons after that until his retirement - but this is all supposed to mean something?

The "test" you failed, was obviously misread/misunderstood on your part. It wasn't to find guys who had PPG before 27 then did so later. It was "name guys who hit PPG status prior to 27, who went on to significantly increase their performance between the ages of 27 and 31?". Basically, find some guys who had 80ish points at age 20-25 and then became 100+point guys when they were 27-30. There are very few.
The significance of this is that because Kessel is PPG already (at a relatively young age), doesn't mean he's going to increase that automatically like you seem to imply. You're implying that because he's not in his "prime years" yet, that he's more likely than not to increase his numbers as he hits 27-30. Nuxfan was pointing out that not many guys do this so odds are that Kessel won't have this massive 25 point increase. Don't get me wrong, he could, it's just not as likely as you make it seem by saying things like "it's a good bet" that he will do this. Hopefully this clears things up?

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
You guys *really* missed the point. I never said that Phil Kessel was a "lock" for a progression. I said that he was an "extremely good bet". And, if you had actually been watching hockey last night like I did - you would be nodding your heads and agreeing with me. Phil Kessel COMPLETELY dominated last night. Oh, and look at that. 2nd in League Scoring. Thanks for coming out.

I said that I'm going to guess that Kessel has a 110 point season in 2016-2017 - but I fully admit that I could be way wrong on that one.

Okay, this is what I was talking about. You said he was "an extremely good bet", and as I just explained above, I don't agree. I wouldn't go running off to bet that if I were you, that's all. I already said, he'd likely increase his PPG status but I just don't see 110 in the cards. I too could be "way wrong" as i'm not a genie and can't tell the future. We could wake up a year from now and Kessel could be outscoring and outperforming Crosby for all we know? I wouldn't bet on that either, but you get my point, right?
As for tonight, had I been watching, I can guarantee you I wouldn't be "nodding my head in agreement". A 4 point night against a poor defensive team with a 3rd string goalie with just a handful of games under his belt doesn't change my mind. Nice night for sure and 4 points is 4 points, but that and 2nd in scoring after a dozen or so games does not suddenly make me feel like the Leafs won this deal, which is what this is all about, remember?

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
So...... if Kessel goes the way of Mats Sundin, and "only" has 8 straight seasons of 70-point + hockey... ummm. Yeah. This is a waste of my time.

If this happens, whether or not you're wasting your time, you shouldn't be happy with his deal. If he doesn't get over and stay over PPG status for at least 4 or 5 years, 8M a year would have to be considered ridiculously overpaid!!! Would you not agree?

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Alex, do you play hockey? It doesn't sound like it. I'd rather not make any judgements despite your repeated vitriol directed at me... But come on. Dude. It wasn't a 2-on-1. It was a guy coming down on the wing in a SHORT-HANDED situation. You give the guy the shot from the outside. 96 times out of 100 the goalie makes the save. Life goes on. I can't see how you are taking Kessel to task on this. It was one play - a nice play by the opposition - and it meant nothing. There's no analysis to be done there. Nothing to discuss. Kessel's stick broke. Dubinsky made a nice shot. Life goes on.

I no longer play hockey, though I did. Regardless of that, you don't need to have ever picked up a stick to know what a 2 on 1 is my friend. It may not be a clear cut 2 on 1 from center ice as Kessel is doing his best to close in on the 2nd guy, but it's a 2 on 1 nonetheless. Have another look, and pause the clip at :09 seconds and tell me it wasn't a 2 on 1 that was played rather well defensively by Franson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19o9Vc-8Jrg&list=TL8FVlRcbmVlSGkIEiCvHgfu6M9sfDsuH0
You are totally correct that Dubinsky made a great shot and that a goalie would stop this most of the time or the shooter would miss. Pretty much a perfect shot. Where you're totally wrong is that it wasn't just merely a guy coming down the wing in a short handed situation. Here's the thing, I complimented Franson on his defensive play here yet if it were simply a guy coming down the wing, he played it horribly. Why wouldn't he go to the guy and not let him have the shot? Oh, maybe because it's almost a guarantee that Dubinsky would have slid the puck over to Letestu for an easy tap in? Seriously, you're questioning my hockey knowledge and you can't even see this? I'm a little horrified to be honest. "Life goes on"? Yeah, great attitude towards the play. It may not seem like much, but in the end, like it or not Kessel made the wrong choice. Had he turned around and skated back immediately, even without a stick he could have defended Letestu to the point that Franson would have been free to "take the shot away" from Dubinsky.

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Here you guys are - in the midst of completely eating your own dirty socks for breakfast. Kessel is on a veritable tear. 10 points, 6 goals in 4 games. And you guys are LITERALLY grasping at straws - "oooh aaah... Kessel broke his stick blah blah blah." "Brendan Shanahan was merely a PPG Hall-of-Famer for the rest of his career (but his BEST season was when he was 25) blah blah blah." You sound absolutely ridiculous.

And yes Alex. I realize that I do too. I am responding to this insanity.


How am I eating my words? Because Kessel is on a tear right now? 4 or 5 games makes this contract a good one? Huh? Why didn't Sam Gagner get 8+ million for his 15 points in 5 games?

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Just, do us all a favour. Okay? Please. Watch the highlights from last night. The Game is now on the NHL GameCentre vault entitled "The Phil Kessel Show". If that wasn't proof enough for you... well, then I can't help you. And, I want to be in your Pool. I'll be picking Phil Kessel in the Fourth round while you're still jumping up and down because you drafted OEL.

I already saw the highlights and I don't think they do Kessel justice actually. From what I heard, he was dominant, but seeing highlights of his goals and assists isn't enough to show he dominated. BTW, i'm not questioning it, I just don't think seeing the highlights is enough. Thing is, even if he did dominate, it's still one game against a poor defensive team. It's not going to change my mind. I won't suddenly think Kessel will score 110 points nor will I think the Leafs are the winner in this deal. As for my pool, you won't be picking Kessel in the 4th round. He went top 10 in 2 of the pools i'm in (the others have goalies so he went a little lower) so you'd likely be missing out on him. If you are plucking him in the 4th round of your pools, I want in them! BTW, I don't care if he's picked 1st overall in a pool. I've never been in a pool that gives points for defense so he's definitely a high pick.

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Would you like to tell us how many points you think Kessel will finish with at the end of this year?



Well, on my pre-draft (pool) list, I had him pegged for around 90, however, after reading your post and the subsequent excitement you've exuded, i'd have to say 140?
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2013 :  09:30:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Awesome Alex.

So, I just want to summarize your argument here. You're asking me not to use a sample size of... (how long has it been... 150 straight games that Phil Kessel has been at a PPG pace?).

But then, your main argument against hinges on ONE PLAY. One play which seems to be debatable on top of it..

Sure, the Oilers completely suck this year. But that doesn't take away from Phil Kessel's performance from last night. He just absolutely ruined The Oilers. That was a performance for the ages. The only reason he didn't put up 6 points, is because he didn't play in the third. It was The Phil Kessel show last night.

I think it's time to start showing some respect for Phil Kessel!! He's the real deal (as I have been saying for 5 years).



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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2013 :  10:51:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Going off topic........nuxfan and Alex .....why didn't van. Re-sign mason Raymond ??......big loss for the Canucks and big gain for the leafs.....damn I love his play for the leafs so far....he plays the game so smart, plus with speed and skill.



They didn't resign him because he was wildly inconsistent, and he would have cost too much. He had several years to prove himself, but could not maintain any level of consistency. He was also making 2.2 million, and was unlikely to stay for much less. TOR got him for a very reasonable salary, and only after every other team passed on him as well. I believe TOR was the only team to offer him a tryout

I liked Raymond, he ha some skill and great speed. When he is on, he is very good. when he is cold, he is not very useful

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/30/2013 10:53:07
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2013 :  14:05:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What you mean players go on cold streaks, much like they do for hot streaks? That's craziness your talking there, Nuxfan! Based on what some Toronto fans think Kessel is immune to this. Kessel's 4 point night last night, 150ish games of ppg status and the fact he is definitely, definitely gonna increase in ppg totals by significant amounts to justify his $8 million over 8 years max contract. Now I am gonna go to Kmart and come home and watch Whopner! Cue the Rainman
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2013 :  15:25:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Awesome Alex.

So, I just want to summarize your argument here. You're asking me not to use a sample size of... (how long has it been... 150 straight games that Phil Kessel has been at a PPG pace?).

This will be my last attempt to try to get through to you. From your response, it's clear to me you still don't have the slightest clue as to where i stand on this debate. Your summarizing of my argument is somehow that i'm asking you not to use a 150 game sample size? Where did i imply that? I've not even questioned whether or not Kessel is a PPG guy and this is what you have concluded somehow? Please feel free to explain.

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

But then, your main argument against hinges on ONE PLAY. One play which seems to be debatable on top of it.

NO! Not even frickin' close. My main argument is not based on ONE PLAY! Do you even know what my main point is in this debate??? BTW, it's hardly debatable, it WAS a 2 on 1 and wouldn't have been if Kessel had made the right play defensively. Maybe he misjudged the distance and thought he could get a stick AND get back in time to defend? Maybe it's the first defensive lapse he's made all year? I dunno? But i do know that my main argument doesn't "hinge on this ONE PLAY".

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Sure, the Oilers completely suck this year. But that doesn't take away from Phil Kessel's performance from last night. He just absolutely ruined The Oilers. That was a performance for the ages. The only reason he didn't put up 6 points, is because he didn't play in the third. It was The Phil Kessel show last night.

He didn't play much in the 3rd you mean, right? If he sat the 3rd out, i'll be calling the league to rescind his 4th point that is listed on a 3rd period goal.
"A performance for the ages" might be a little strong imo, though i'm only basing this on hearing that he had a pretty good game. I think i'd have seen and heard a lot more if this was really some out of this world game from him.


quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
I think it's time to start showing some respect for Phil Kessel!! He's the real deal (as I have been saying for 5 years).


I'm not sure what this respect for Kessel is that you seek? I've already said he's a PPG player, something you questioned at the beginnig of this last post, and something that is FACT as well. How can i argue this? I've also said i think he will remain a PPG player and maybe slightly better. I've even told you i pegged him for a 90ish point season this year? I've called him a high end offensive player! What more do you want???

I'm going to try yet again to explain where i'm coming from. Maybe i'm explaining this poorly? I don't think so, but perhaps someone else can chime in and at least let me know if what i'm saying is confusing. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but please, someone, let me know that this is at least clear as to what i'm saying. To summarize:

*Regarding the poll question, i think Kessel is the winner overall, but i'm not claiming it to be any sort of NYI sized craziness! If i were a Leaf fan, i'd have preferred a 5 year deal, but i understand this prob wouldn't have gotten the deal done.
*I believe Kessel is a top notch / elite offensive forward in the NHL.
*Kessel is already a PPG player, nothing to debate here as it's a fact.
*I believe Kessel will continue to be a PPG player or better for at least the next 5 years.
*By "better", i mean 90ish points, perhaps even pushing 100 if others around him improve and/or the Leafs aquire more help?
*I do not think that Kessel will hit 110pts.....EVER. My opinion/guess only, based on the few who've done it in the last 10-15 years.
*Though he may have improved other areas of his game, i don't feel he's elite anywhere other than offensively (aside from maybe his speed?).
*I would prefer Jonathan Toews and his near PPG coupled with his all around game (leadership, faceoffs, defensive/two way game, etc) to Phil Kessel if i had to choose between the two.
*I do not hate Phil Kessel and would love to have him as a Canuck under the right scenario (salary and cap hit).
*If Phil Kessel comes to Vancouver on Saturday night and puts up 3G's and 3A's, my opinion and predictions for him will not suddenly change, just as they haven't during this current tear he's on.

I'm sure i'm missing some points/opinions i've shared, but hopefully this clears things up Crock as you seem to have been unable to grasp my point(s).
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2013 :  15:39:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Going off topic........nuxfan and Alex .....why didn't van. Re-sign mason Raymond ??......big loss for the Canucks and big gain for the leafs.....damn I love his play for the leafs so far....he plays the game so smart, plus with speed and skill.



They didn't resign him because he was wildly inconsistent, and he would have cost too much. He had several years to prove himself, but could not maintain any level of consistency. He was also making 2.2 million, and was unlikely to stay for much less. TOR got him for a very reasonable salary, and only after every other team passed on him as well. I believe TOR was the only team to offer him a tryout

I liked Raymond, he ha some skill and great speed. When he is on, he is very good. when he is cold, he is not very useful



Very well said Nux. Duke, i think i even commented in a thread mentioning his signing that i thought it was a good move for the Leafs and that if nothing else, his speed and PK ability is pretty good, providing he stays healthy. He seems to have found a nice spot on the Leafs and is contributing. I too am happy for him as he seems like a really good guy.

He was given every opportunity here to seize a top 6 roll and failed to do so. I think he'd have been on a very short leash with Torts as well and he seems to have found some chemistry with the guys he's playing with in TO. Bolland has been his centre i believe and he too is off to a great start for the Leafs which obviously helps. I would love to listen in to a conversation between these two re the old Vancouver/Chicago rivalry they used to compete against one another in!!! Anyway, glad he's doing well and hope he finds the consistency he lacked here, however, you need to keep in mind his playoff numbers aren't very good at 8Gs and 10A in 55 playoff games and we all know how you value those. Man, against those big bad Bruins you compared the Sedin's and Kessel vs, all Raymond did was get crunched into the boards, breaking his back in the process. I mean, what a wimp. I guess he won't be any use to the Leafs in April? (*sarcasm warning*)
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