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 David Clarkson a bust? Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
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Guest0714
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Posted - 12/01/2013 :  14:41:40  Reply with Quote
Just curious as to what people think. I've watched most of the Leaf games this year (on TV) and really have to look for Clarkson. Except for one game, and the penalties he gets, he's virtually invisible to me. With the big dollars he signed for, I was expecting more. He's no Wendle Clark.

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2013 :  22:02:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you are not alone. There was a reasonably long discussion regarding Clarkson back in the summer, and whether or not the Leafs overpaid (both in $ and term) for a player that has yet to hit 50 points in a single season, and only had one season over 40 points.

I think its still too early to call the deal a bust, given he started the season 10 games late because of a suspension. We'll see where he is by the Olympic break.
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Guest4059
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Posted - 12/02/2013 :  06:25:56  Reply with Quote
Clarkson is not the real deal. It's clearly an overrated player!
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Guest5091
( )

Posted - 12/02/2013 :  07:58:24  Reply with Quote
Everyone was saying that whoever "won" him would be overpaying... Yeah, he's underperforming but even if he was on pace to match last year's paces, it still wouldn't be worth the cap hit.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2013 :  08:43:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To me he is the new version for the leafs of Tie Domi or like Chris Neil is to the Senators. He has good value to the team just not the value he is getting paid.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2013 :  07:58:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Definitely a bit of a bust so far, no doubt.

But it's early, and simply looks like a "bad start" to me. Not horrible - he hasn't been a drag on the team or anything . . . he just hasn't added anything to it.

It's been 17 games for Clarkson only . . . remember that he was suspended for the first ten. He's currently on pace for a 10 goal, 14 assist 24 pt full season (he'll play 72 at most this year) . . . below what should probably be expected of him, for sure - but you can't pick and choose random 17 game samples from any player and tell me that's what he is, it can go both ways.

I think he'll get better, but that "better" may be a more actively involved player who will get 40 points in a full season, maybe 20 goals.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
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Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2013 :  15:06:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He certainly hasn't taken the team by the horns so far, I have to agree. He has underperformed so far this season.

He has looked better in the last 4 - 6 games I think. He seems to be going to the net much harder lately, ( this is his strength ). Folks, Cl;arkson is not known for fancy ( sedin twins ) type hockey....he is a in your face , go to the net, collect garbage goal type player......he is what teams need to succeed come playoff time.....hopefully this will happen
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Guest9825
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Posted - 12/04/2013 :  19:34:06  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
He has looked better in the last 4 - 6 games I think. He seems to be going to the net much harder lately, ( this is his strength ). Folks, Cl;arkson is not known for fancy ( sedin twins ) type hockey....he is a in your face , go to the net, collect garbage goal type player......he is what teams need to succeed come playoff time.....hopefully this will happen

Yeah fancy that the Sedins are both scoring at a better clip than the superstar Kessel. Again another overpayment.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2013 :  20:52:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
he is what teams need to succeed come playoff time.....hopefully this will happen



One only has to look at all his Stanley Cup rings to know how successful he has been in the playoffs.... oh, wait.

Well, so he hasn't won a cup. But he's probably been a huge playoff point producer over his career... oh, wait.

So Duke - what is it exactly that makes Clarkson a playoff stud in your eyes?
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2262 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  08:57:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now this may rubb some people the wrong way but I have always seen Clarkson as a Brandon Prust with a bit more of a nose for the net, Both are players who made there names with Character, grit and toughness but then have shown they can play the game of hockey aswell. Granted Clarkson has shown to be more offensivly skilled, this year however both have played 18 games Prust has 4 pts Clarkson 5, Prust makes 2.5 million though....

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[pause] Hello? Hello?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  13:34:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

Now this may rubb some people the wrong way but I have always seen Clarkson as a Brandon Prust with a bit more of a nose for the net, Both are players who made there names with Character, grit and toughness but then have shown they can play the game of hockey aswell. Granted Clarkson has shown to be more offensivly skilled, this year however both have played 18 games Prust has 4 pts Clarkson 5, Prust makes 2.5 million though....

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?


Hey that $2.5 million sounds pretty reasonable for his ability. Sign me up!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  15:35:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Many see the Sedins as the games greats Nuxfan.....how many cup rings do they have ??...oh wait

I simply implied that come playoff time a team which excels has David Clarkson type players.......eg...Dave Bolland......maybe this is why Vancouver has failed to win a cup with 2 so called super stars in their line up.

Maybe the Sedins put up big numbers against the Bruins in their last Stanley cup final series.....oh wait...
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  15:42:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Was also going to mention Nuxfan.......its so easy to sit back and criticize a player ( Clarkson ) who has only just started his career with a new team....what has he played ? 17 or 18 games ?

Maybe you should be more critical of some of Vancouver's players who have played 400 - 600 games with them .....and still no ring.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  15:56:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pasty , you really comparing Clarksons abilities to that of Prust....come on now, give him more credit than that.

He has only been in Toronto for a few weeks, give him time ....you just cant look at that several week sample size to judge his career. .....you know he is going to get much better....give him 2 or 3 several point games and this will be forgotton about.

last season Clarkson had 15 goals...........Prust had 5 goals.

Previous season Clarkson had 30 goals in 80 games.........Prust had 5 goals in 82 games.......come on now, gimme a break.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  18:24:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Pasty , you really comparing Clarksons abilities to that of Prust....come on now, give him more credit than that.

He has only been in Toronto for a few weeks, give him time ....you just cant look at that several week sample size to judge his career. .....you know he is going to get much better....give him 2 or 3 several point games and this will be forgotton about.

last season Clarkson had 15 goals...........Prust had 5 goals.

Previous season Clarkson had 30 goals in 80 games.........Prust had 5 goals in 82 games.......come on now, gimme a break.

Seems like a fair comparison to me. Clarkson has only had 1.5 good years with Kovalchuk as his teammate. If you compare the 2 career wise in the other years, the rest of his yearly stats look a lot like Prust's. Size and style of play are similar too. Not saying they are of like value, but to suggest they are leaps and bounds apart isn't true either. So is Prust playing better to match Clarkson's stats this year or is Clarkson not playing to his contract value. I'd say the later.
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Guest2534
( )

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  19:44:00  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Pasty , you really comparing Clarksons abilities to that of Prust....come on now, give him more credit than that.

He has only been in Toronto for a few weeks, give him time ....you just cant look at that several week sample size to judge his career. .....you know he is going to get much better....give him 2 or 3 several point games and this will be forgotton about.

last season Clarkson had 15 goals...........Prust had 5 goals.

Previous season Clarkson had 30 goals in 80 games.........Prust had 5 goals in 82 games.......come on now, gimme a break.

Seems like a fair comparison to me. Clarkson has only had 1.5 good years with Kovalchuk as his teammate. If you compare the 2 career wise in the other years, the rest of his yearly stats look a lot like Prust's. Size and style of play are similar too. Not saying they are of like value, but to suggest they are leaps and bounds apart isn't true either. So is Prust playing better to match Clarkson's stats this year or is Clarkson not playing to his contract value. I'd say the later.



Your comparing apples to oranges. Prust is a 4th line plug. Clarkson is where he belongs on a 2nd line. He is your old-school power forward who is learning his role in Toronto, watch out for him in the second half of the season.

Also, trying to compare Kessel to the Sedins is unfair, the Sedins play with each other while Kessel plays with Bozak? How fair is that to compare. I'd take Kessel over 1 of the Sedins anyday of the week.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2262 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  20:14:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Prust: 335 GP 81 Pts .24 pts per game,
Clarkson: 444 GP 175 pts .39 pts per game,

Now lets look again at what I posted,

"I have always seen Clarkson as a Brandon Prust with a bit more of a nose for the net, Both are players who made there names with Character, grit and toughness but then have shown they can play the game of hockey aswell. Granted Clarkson has shown to be more offensivly skilled,

yeah so what i said is 100% correct, yes Clarkson has score 30 goals once, hes also only exceeded 30 pts twice in his career, I still think its a fair comparison

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2013 :  21:20:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Many see the Sedins as the games greats Nuxfan.....how many cup rings do they have ??...oh wait

I simply implied that come playoff time a team which excels has David Clarkson type players.......eg...Dave Bolland......maybe this is why Vancouver has failed to win a cup with 2 so called super stars in their line up.

Maybe the Sedins put up big numbers against the Bruins in their last Stanley cup final series.....oh wait...



I was not aware that David Clarkson was a "Dave Bolland" type of player. Unlike Clarkson, Dave Bolland has 2 cup rings and 43 points in 67 career playoff games. In fact, I see very little in common between the two.

I agree that teams need players like Bolland, and the Canucks sure could use more like them. Yet you still haven't explained why teams need "Dave Clarkson" types of players to win cups.

quote:

Was also going to mention Nuxfan.......its so easy to sit back and criticize a player ( Clarkson ) who has only just started his career with a new team....what has he played ? 17 or 18 games ?



I was not critical of Clarkson at all, if you read my first comment on this thread, I said the exact same thing - too early to tell for him with TOR.

I was actually sitting back and being critical of you, and this baseless assertion that Clarkson is somehow the missing link that TOR has landed. So far, he has done nothing in his career with NJ or TOR to show that he is worth what is being paid to him, never mind that he is going to somehow lead TOR to a cup.

quote:

Maybe you should be more critical of some of Vancouver's players who have played 400 - 600 games with them .....and still no ring



Just over 900 games actually. I don't think I have defended the fact that the Sedin's have not won a cup with VAN. That being said, the NHL is littered with great players that have never won a cup.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2013 :  08:52:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ok pasty , I get ur point.

yes guest, I would take kessel over 1 sedin anyday too......its amazing what kessel does without a center ice-man

Nuxfan, I indeed do see bolland and Clarkson as similar players.....I don't know why you say they are so different.

They are both tough , hard nose players who get into your face....aren't they ?....they both always hit when they can .....they both drive their opponents crazy, being agitators.....they both will drive hard to the net causing havoc in the crease......

I think Bolland and Clarkson have more in common more-so then they are different.

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2013 :  11:16:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

Prust: 335 GP 81 Pts .24 pts per game,
Clarkson: 444 GP 175 pts .39 pts per game,

Now lets look again at what I posted,

"I have always seen Clarkson as a Brandon Prust with a bit more of a nose for the net, Both are players who made there names with Character, grit and toughness but then have shown they can play the game of hockey aswell. Granted Clarkson has shown to be more offensivly skilled,

yeah so what i said is 100% correct, yes Clarkson has score 30 goals once, hes also only exceeded 30 pts twice in his career, I still think its a fair comparison

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




You can't look at career numbers to compare the 2 because Prust didn't become a regular for 3 years with the Flames, while he was developing nicely in the AHL, with great stats and only got his shot when the Flames lost him on waivers and they thought so highly of him they picked him back up the next year in 08/09. In 09/10 Prust spent time between the Flames and New York earning regular playing time for the first time in his career. His first success as a regular was in 10/11 and if you compare the 2 players since that time, the stats are not that far off, except for that one exceptional season for Clarkson in 11/12, and that season I would suggest was because Clarkson was playing higher up the lineup in the top 6, while Prust has spent the majority of his career in the AHL and bottom 6, yet if you look at 2010/11 Prust when playing in the top 6 in New York 82g-29p, even outscored Clarkson 82g-18p. Its not a matter of stats, but more a matter that they are similar players on the ice, but one has been given a better opportunity to succeed statistically and rewarded with an outrageous contract. I'm not arguing that Clarkson hasn't the better player statistically of the 2, just that I am familiar enough with both to say they are comparable players for what they offer on the ice. Both have played 229 games since 2010/11, but moving forward I would be surprised to see Prust and Clarkson's stats to be similar and Clarkson playing in a bottom 6 role in Toronto.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2013 :  11:53:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Nuxfan, I indeed do see bolland and Clarkson as similar players.....I don't know why you say they are so different.

They are both tough , hard nose players who get into your face....aren't they ?....they both always hit when they can .....they both drive their opponents crazy, being agitators.....they both will drive hard to the net causing havoc in the crease......



Ironically, those are qualities that Brandon Prust has as well, yet you argued pretty vehemently that Clarkson was very different from Prust. In fact, those are qualities shared by most 3rd and 4th line pluggers in the NHL.

As for why I (and probably many others) see Clarkson and Bolland as different:

Bolland - 2nd line centre with a good faceoff percentage, excellent defensive capabilities that can kill penalties, highly reliable in his own end, and an agitator but doesn't often take penalties (averaging .5 PIM per game). 2 time Stanley Cup winner with 43 points in 67 playoff games.

David Clarkson - 2nd line power forward winger, does not take faceoffs, does not kill penalties (in fact has no specific defensive prowess that I can spot), primarily used at ES and PP. Agitator that does take penalties (avg 2 PIM per game). Zero Stanley Cups (but had a trip to the finals), 14 points in 44 games.

Other than "agitator" and the fact that both play for TOR, I'm struggling to find ANY similarities at all. They don't even look the same.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2013 :  15:12:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Prust vs Clarkson comparison is valid, and even moreso by the way Pasty qualified it by saying "Clarkson is similar to Bolland but with more of a nose for the net". My biggest beef with the comparison though, and it's along the lines of what nuxfan touched on, is that Prust is a PK guy and Clarkson is not. That, is a big difference in their game. So, while Prust offers this up as part of his package, Clarkson offers up a little more offense. Fair enough, though i think many of us who said the Leafs will likely regret this deal down the road, have not had our minds changed by Clarkson's slow start.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2013 :  15:18:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Give him time to fit in Alex, the leafs have yet to ice its full roster this season . Clarkson has yet to find out which line he is on and who his regular line mates are .

With injuries and suspensions combined , the leafs have lost almost 100 man games so far this season..... And 90 % of those to KEY players
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2013 :  10:28:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Give him time to fit in Alex, the leafs have yet to ice its full roster this season . Clarkson has yet to find out which line he is on and who his regular line mates are .

With injuries and suspensions combined , the leafs have lost almost 100 man games so far this season..... And 90 % of those to KEY players



That being said,
Clarkson still didn't come through in the game against the Bruins. Missed two or three glorious chances . . . and the Leafs never got that 2nd or 3rd goal in the first period they really deserved. It's not all on him, it's just that I have noticed he is getting the chances occasionally, just not burying them in the net.

Every team has injuries. Clarkson has not been that great, and he need to get better for this team to further survive the lengthy absence of Bolland - a guy who was our best penalty killer and best defensive forward/shutdown guy.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2013 :  12:54:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, i get it, and i may be biased in the fact that i believe even if Clarkson matches his average career numbers over the length of the deal, that he's overpaid. However, as was mentioned back when he signed, this is the day and age we live in where if you want one of the more covetted free agents, you're prob gonna have to overpay to get him.

Overall, i think the Leafs would have been better off trying to aquire a similar guy for less. We may not know for a couple years or more, but i just have a feeling the Leafs will regret this deal.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2013 :  13:47:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
overpaid.....no question. and i think Nonis et al know that as well, but they obviously can't admit it to the public eye.
however, i'd also argue that Nonis' overpayment was banking on the fact that his abilities as a player would shine more so in the playoffs rather then the regular season. and not so much on the score sheet, but in those tight 1 goal games when you need your players to grind it out in the corners. something this team sorely missed against Boston last spring.

now........you actually have to MAKE the playoff in order to cash in on those dividends.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2013 :  16:52:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper
however, i'd also argue that Nonis' overpayment was banking on the fact that his abilities as a player would shine more so in the playoffs rather then the regular season. and not so much on the score sheet, but in those tight 1 goal games when you need your players to grind it out in the corners.



Really? Nonis is paying 5.25M for 7 years to a guy so he can "grind it out in the corners" during the playoffs? Something tells me they are looking for quite a bit more than that..

I still don't get what Leaf fans see in Clarkson, WRT playoff performance, everyone seems to think he'll be some kind of saviour in the post season. What has Clarkson done in the playoffs so far that warrants this kind of hope?
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 12/09/2013 :  18:45:55  Reply with Quote
Could have save $2M per year by signing Clarke McCarthur and to a much more friendly length. But it is always nice to overpay for that shiny new object that is not yours instead of the shiny object you already have.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2013 :  08:00:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey if someone's gonna go back in the Delorian and unwrite the Macathur to Ottawa story, I am gonna send my own T1000 to keep the story as written. So glad MacArthur didn't fit with Carlyle's system. He seems to find chemistry with every player he plays with on every line in Ottawa. Seems to me he is one of the good to great stories this year for Ottawa.

quote:
Originally posted by Guest9825

Could have save $2M per year by signing Clarke McCarthur and to a much more friendly length. But it is always nice to overpay for that shiny new object that is not yours instead of the shiny object you already have.

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2013 :  16:20:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
he was the same way in Toronto for a good while Joshua.....he seemed to fade away after a spell though, lotta nights he was invisible....but I guess he was never lousy....pretty good player
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