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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2014 :  17:11:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Which of these teams would you LEAST like to see win the McDavid Sweepstakes? And why?

Choices:

Columbus
Buffalo
Edmonton
Carolina

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2014 :  17:13:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've only included these four bottom feeders as they're the ones IMO which should continue to struggle. Philly is next lowest in points but I personally feel they're just too good overall to continue at the pathetic pace they're on.

Keep in mind, this is which team you'd LEAST LIKE to see get McDavid, NOT which team you think will get him! Reasons could range from personal hatred to "what's good for the NHL"?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2014 :  12:39:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I chose EDM:

- I don't like the Oilers, so I don't want them to get a player of that calibre that the Canucks need to face 7 times a year

- right now, EDM seems to be a highly disfunctional and morale sucking environment. Assuming that McDavid will make an NHL roster on any team that drafts him in year 1, I don't know if that sort of environment would be a good one for a young kid. If they were to get McDavid, I think they'd have to make some other substantial moves to try and create a winning environment around him.

- although not a really good reason for why any team should or should not get a player, I think from an NHL marketing point of view, McDavid's value is wasted playing for a small market Canadian team.

- seriously, how many #1 picks does EDM need to build a team? 3 straight #1's, and no worse than a top-10 pick in each of the last 6 drafts? If you can't use that as a solid base for building a winning team, then you should not keep getting top draft picks. Its like giving a steady allowance to a chronic gambler, and then wondering why they have nothing saved at the end of the day.
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
365 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2014 :  13:18:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I chose Edmonton as well, but not because of a dislike. Mostly because I feel sorry for them. If they got another one they might be tempted to stick with their god-awful approach of trying to build a team around them all. It's not working. It's time to sell half their assets and rebuild with some experience. How MacTavish still has a job is beyond me!

STOP HOPING that you can win with a bunch of 1st rounders (I know that sounds ludicrous!) You need more veterans and role players. All Edmonton is doing is ruining the careers of these young would-be superstars!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2014 :  10:54:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You guys are just piling on now!

Of course I want the kid to play on my team. Every fans wants him to play on their team. Edmonton would be helped with a kid like this. However, Ripley makes a very very good point. The issue with this team is the lack of meat in the middle of the line up. The superstars type players are doing their jobs.

If Edmonton did have the #1 pick I would be happy to see them move this once in a generation talent for a true, elite, #1 defensemen plus a few spare parts. That would be more beneficial to this team than another #1 pick.


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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2014 :  12:54:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

You guys are just piling on now!

Of course I want the kid to play on my team. Every fans wants him to play on their team. Edmonton would be helped with a kid like this. However, Ripley makes a very very good point. The issue with this team is the lack of meat in the middle of the line up. The superstars type players are doing their jobs.

If Edmonton did have the #1 pick I would be happy to see them move this once in a generation talent for a true, elite, #1 defensemen plus a few spare parts. That would be more beneficial to this team than another #1 pick.






I think if the Oilers got the number one pick this season, or even the number 2 Eichel, They would be best served to keep the pick and move one of there other young talented players for the things you have mentioned, a fresh start is better and I think both Eichel and McDavid are that good!


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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2014 :  15:43:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

I think if the Oilers got the number one pick this season, or even the number 2 Eichel, They would be best served to keep the pick and move one of there other young talented players for the things you have mentioned, a fresh start is better and I think both Eichel and McDavid are that good!


Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




I agree - players like McDavid only come around once every decade or two. EDM would be better served keeping him, and trading RHN or Eberle away to get the parts they're missing.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2014 :  09:37:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I made this poll, and yet I struggle to pick one of the teams. The easy pick is Edmonton seeing as they've had so many 1's and high first rounders lately. Another first overall, with the talented McDavid the obvious pick, and they could seriously become a dynasty type team if most of the others finally find their groove (and they get help needed in other areas). However, I don't HATE the Oilers like I did in the 80's when they kept winning and winning and beating up on the Canucks during Gretzky's days. That was a frustrating time, and one I might revisit to some degree if this team does get McDavid and he is the real deal? But, as a hockey fan, one who at times gets extremely frustrated at the money these guys get paid, maybe Edmonton would be a good destination. The franchise struggles to attract free agents and even with great fan support and a rich owner, could find itself in trouble in the future if the futility continues. I don't care how good the fans are, they have to be getting to a boiling point soon. This is not to say I think they Oilers are on the verge of a move or folding as a franchise, but as a small market team, they need to improve the product on the ice to maintain this support. What better than a franchise-type player like McDavid?

Buffalo is much in the same boat. With rumours of moves to the GTA and such, maybe a guy like McDavid could be their saviour? Hard to hate this team and wish against them in this "contest".

Columbus I like. Johansen we all see becoming a superstar before our eyes. This expansion team has had struggles for years. They might actually be my choice for the team I'd WANT to get McDavid (out of the 4 listed). I really like the direction this Kekalainen guy has taken the team even though they've struggled this season so far. They have had a ridiculous amount of injuries, including a crippling one to Horton after giving him a big contract. Many prob underestimate his value to that team. CBJ have been through so much as a young franchise, maybe they deserve this kid???

Ah, this leaves Carolina. Maybe they're my pick in this poll? Another team that is in a less than ideal market, has had some success in the not to distant past, is on the verge of a rebuild perhaps, one that McDavid would launch into turbo mode! I just don't know about the Hurricanes. Never been a big fan really. It's one of those teams that could disappear and I'd prob not only not miss them, I'd prob forget them very quickly? Lol.

Carolina it is.......
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2014 :  17:09:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Picked Edmonton, that was easy.
Definitely not a hated team at all, but they've already had their share of first overall picks and top 5 draft positions. What they need to have happen is to finish last, then get to pick at 7 or lower due to bad luck. That's what they need - as a wake-up call, to make them understand that . . . ok, no one is coming to get you out of this hole, you have to climb out yourself. Sometimes, everyone needs that moment.

A close second is a handful of teams that I don't want to get 'propped up' artificially by suddenly having a marquee draw. Carolina, Arizona, Florida.

Other than that . . . well, it's be NICE as a guy in Toronto to have McDavid in the East. To see him more often. Other than that, obviously would love to see him on the Leafs, but it ain't happening 'cough' cold envelope 'cough' since it'll probably be one of Bettman's non-hockey markets that drafts him.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2014 :  11:27:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At the risk of sounding argumentative, why such hate for the Oilers getting 'all these top picks?"

Let's look at some other teams in the NHL who also had a ton of early draft picks but didn't get crapped on for having tons of early draft picks:

Pittsburgh drafted #5, #1, #2, #1, #2,between 2002 and 2006

Washington drafted #1, #4, #14, #5 between 2004 and 2008

Chicago drafted #3, #7, #3, and #1 between 2004-2007

Los Angeles drafted #4, #2, and #5 between 2007-2009


So, honest question, why does Edmonton get criticized for drafting #1, #1, #1, #7, and #3 in the past 5 years?? Also, why is it that Edmonton is critisizxed for their performance when:

Pittsburgh did not make the final until 2008, 2 years after a run of 5 top draft picks. Chicago didn't make the finals until 2010, 3 years after their run of 4 early draft picks. Washington has never made the finals with having high draft picks, and LA's was also 3 years after their run of high draft picks.

SO, again, why does Edmonton get piled on so much?? They have been a bad team for a very long time, but let's also look at their draft picks before their streak of #1. Since 2004 their first pick was 14 ,25, 45, 6, 22,10, 1, 1, 1, 7, 3. They went 5 years without a pick in the top 10 in the mid 2000.

It's not like they had high draft picks before and tossed them away. I also don't think they have done a bad job of drafting early in the past 5 years. Yakupov is not developing as fast as others have, but Hall and Nuge are developing fine, Nurse is coming along, as is Dreisetal.

I think people are piling on for the sake of piling on at this point. Based on other teams who also had a bunch of early draft picks and didn't get crapped on as well as those teams not really producing for a few years after they finished a stretch of early draft picks.


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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2014 :  06:51:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans....i think that answer is easy. This poll wasn't created in 2006,7,8 or 9! Having said that, as far as those others go, Pittsburgh is really the only one that is very comparable, especially considering Crosby was the "next big thing". I'm sure if this poll was made in 06/07 that Pitt would be he #1 choice. I prob should have made it "aside from Edm..." as they are clearly the easy pick due to their recent run of high picks.
The only other reason i can see that no one is piling on those teams is that they aren't part of this poll AND for that reason everyone is following the site rules like we always do by staying on topic!
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2014 :  08:49:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pittsburgh got crapped on a LOT (see my cold envelope comment). Especially since they were able to get two generational talents like Crosby and Malkin . . .

Maybe you don't remember that, Beans? At that time, there was a lot of negativity about how f*@#in' LUCKY do you have to be as a market to get Lemieux, and then when your fanbase is nearly non-existent and needs reviving . . . you get Malkin, Crosby, then pick Fleury. Crazy.

I don't think LA and Chicago examples apply, frankly. You need at least 2 #1's, and a couple of top 5's to truly qualify. Nevermind the fact that not one of your examples can compare with getting three #1's in a row . . . that sort of thing is unprecedented.
Three #1's, a 7th pick, then #3, then . . . maybe ANOTHER #1, this time a generational player?!? Yikes . . . that's just too much, doesn't matter WHAT team you are, that is going to engender a feeling of . . . call it jealousy, but - no team should deserve getting that kind of luck!

For reference, Edmonton has drafted:
#3 (Draisaitl) - 2014
#7 (Nurse) - 2013
#1 (Yakupov) - 2012
#1 (Nugent-Hopkins) - 2011
#1 (Hall) - 2010
#10 (Paajarvi-Svenson) - 2009


Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2014 :  16:15:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me its easy to pick the worst and easy for me to pick where Id like to see him go. I think its Buffalo's time to get a player of this caliber and start the rebuild. Aside from a few players not currently on the roster or off to horiible starts, there hasn't been much to cheer for in Buffalo. Having one of those stars puts a pillar in place. That being said there record as of late, 7 3 0, this team is winning games (who'd have thought).

I go with Edmonton as the last place I'd like to see pick 1st. I truly hope this team can stop the good luck on draft day, bad luck on game day mentality. How bout they puts some wins together and get out of the discussion. Id rather see that, than continue the discussion of why I don't want them to win the Lottery 4 times in 6 years.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  08:14:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, I disagree that Pittsburgh is the only comparable. I don't think you can look at this as how many #1 a team needs to be compared. This group are all teams who had high draft picks for about a 5 year period of time that built their core. All of these teams took 2-4 years AFTER their last great draft pick

Let's look at players for a second. In a 5 year period of drafting:

Pittsburgh drafted Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Whitney
Chicago drafted Barker, Skille, Kane, Toews, Seabrook
Los Angeles drafted Kopitar, Bernier, Hickey, Doughty, Schenn
Washington drafted Fehr, Ovechkin, Pokulok, Baskstrom, Alzner


I think we could argue who drafted best as not all of these guys were top 5 picks. Regardless, the point I am making is that each of these teams built a core of key players over a period of about 5 years and all of these teams did not make any real achievement until 2-4 years after their final big draft pick.

Based on this, Edmonton should see some success in the next year or two if the recipe is the same. But Edmonton gets crapped on because they are not succeeding. My point is most teams (as seen above) who built a core of players through the draft take a few years to success.


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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  09:25:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

So, I disagree that Pittsburgh is the only comparable. I don't think you can look at this as how many #1 a team needs to be compared. This group are all teams who had high draft picks for about a 5 year period of time that built their core. All of these teams took 2-4 years AFTER their last great draft pick

Let's look at players for a second. In a 5 year period of drafting:

Pittsburgh drafted Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Whitney
Chicago drafted Barker, Skille, Kane, Toews, Seabrook
Los Angeles drafted Kopitar, Bernier, Hickey, Doughty, Schenn
Washington drafted Fehr, Ovechkin, Pokulok, Baskstrom, Alzner


I think we could argue who drafted best as not all of these guys were top 5 picks. Regardless, the point I am making is that each of these teams built a core of key players over a period of about 5 years and all of these teams did not make any real achievement until 2-4 years after their final big draft pick.

Based on this, Edmonton should see some success in the next year or two if the recipe is the same. But Edmonton gets crapped on because they are not succeeding. My point is most teams (as seen above) who built a core of players through the draft take a few years to success.






It depends on what years you use as your measuring stick, and what you consider to be your "last great pick".

Looking at the EDM draft picks, they had those 3 #1's in a row, which was really the bottom for the team. Things should have gone up from there, and they sort of did the following year, where they only had the 7th pick (Nurse). Then they fell back a bit, and scooped the #3 pick last year (Draisaitl). This is the year that, IMO, those players should be crystallizing and producing, and propelling the team forward. Instead, EDM is very far from the playoffs, and once again in the running for the first pick overall.

EDM could continue down this road for a very long time, but by your definition they will simply be "following the recipe". I don't think EDM fans will buy that for very much longer.

One thing I will say in EDM's defense - its tough to compare EDM's top draft picks with those of CHI/LA/WSH/PIT. Each of the successful teams managed to draft pure gold or, even better, a generational player that only comes around a few times every 20 years or so. They got players that were able to make incredible impacts on their respective teams' success. As good as Hall/Eberle/RHN are, I would take any of the other team's top drafts in a heartbeat. So perhaps the recipe for EDM will take a little longer to cook up.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  11:10:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things:

1 - Eberele was drafted 2 years before Hall and drafted at #22. That is 'pure gold' but I would not define that as an early pick.

2 - As I noted with the other teams, I looked at the # of years after their 5th great draft pick to see when they saw success. That's 2-4 years

3 - Considering that, I would say that Edmonton 5 draft picks are now 'done' considering Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Nurse, and Dreiseital. Before those picks they were at #10 and #22.

4 - To your point, the Oilers could be in a revolving door of early draft picks but no results a la the Islanders of the late 90's early 2000's. That might be the track they are on but we don't know that yet.

Still holds true that team in recent memory who built a core through the draft are 2-4 years after their last core player, or 8-9 years from their first great pick away from success. If that is the case, Edmonton is still on track. The next year or so tells the story. At least if you are following history.

However, the Oilers don't get that amount of time because they also pissed away a 5 year period of time before the Hall pick when they did almost nothing to make their team competitive. That's what wrecks the perception of the team. It's not the past 5 years it's the 5 years before that.


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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2014 :  09:22:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok I think I have the answer, and Beans is right, (i know I know i know I`m sorry) not entirely though.......

The problem with the Oilers is not the core of Eberle Hall, RNH, Dreiseital, infact I personally would take that core over the cores from Washington Chicago L.A and Pittsuburgh.

Edmonton simply needs to draft support players and impact players better in the later rounds, something they simply have not done. Beans has aluded to this on multiple occaisions so i did some looking,

Impact or support players drafted by Chicago :
Saad 2nd 43rd overall 2011
Keith 2nd 54th overall 2002
Bickell 2nd 41rst overall 2004
Shaw 5th 139 overall 2011
Kruger 5th 149 overall 2009
Hjalmarsson 4th 108 overall 2005

Impact of support players drafted by L.A
Toffoli 2nd 47th overall 2010
Pearson 1rst 30th overall 2012
King 4th 109 overall 2007
Voynov 2nd 32nd overall 2008
Quick 3rd 72nd overall 2005

Impact of support players drafted by Pittsburgh
Letang 3rd 62nd overall 2005
Despres 1rst 30th overall 2009
Bortuzzo 3rd 78th overall 2007
Muzzin (now playing for L.A) 5th 141 overall 2007

And just because they re my team Montréal impact or support players:
Plekanec 3rd 71rst overall 2001
Subban 2nd 43rd overall 2007
Gallagher 5th 147 overall 2010
Markov 6th 162nd overall 1998
Emelin 3rd 84th overall 2004

Edmonton support or impact players:
Petry 2nd 45th overall 2006


I am now firmly of the opinion the problem in Edmonton is STU MACGREGOR the head of amature scouting, or Steve Tambellini and Lowe for tradeing away all the late round talent Macgregor found. Its all fine and dandy to pick elite players like Hall Yakupov Dreiseitl RNH and Eberle and build around them but you have to actually do that second part and Build around them,

To me Mac T made some blunders this season like Pouliot for example,

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2014 :  18:21:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
The problem with the Oilers is not the core of Eberle Hall, RNH, Dreiseital, infact I personally would take that core over the cores from Washington Chicago L.A and Pittsuburgh.






Whaaaaat?

To be clear, you are choosing the best two players of Hall/Eberle/RNH/Dreisetal over:

PIT: Crosby/Malkin
CHI: Toews/Kane
WSH: OV/Backstrom
LA: Kopitar/Doughty

Am I reading that right?
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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2014 :  21:10:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
although I don't agree with our core being better than other cores, I do agree with you that I am not a Pouliot fan and I agree that our secondary scouting needs some help. Those first rounders were no brainers. Everyone figured even if they weren't good fits on the Oilers, we could use them as trade assets. Now we are just holding on to them till the bitter end.

Look at Detroit. I think that is proof of good management, good scouting, good development.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2014 :  10:42:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
The problem with the Oilers is not the core of Eberle Hall, RNH, Dreiseital, infact I personally would take that core over the cores from Washington Chicago L.A and Pittsuburgh.






Whaaaaat?

To be clear, you are choosing the best two players of Hall/Eberle/RNH/Dreisetal over:

PIT: Crosby/Malkin
CHI: Toews/Kane
WSH: OV/Backstrom
LA: Kopitar/Doughty

Am I reading that right?



not all, Im saying I would take Yakupov RNH Dreisetal Eberle Hall and Nurse as a group, Pitts Chicago washington and L.a all missed on a few of those high draft picks we re talking about, I dont think Edmonton did,

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[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2014 :  17:45:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
The problem with the Oilers is not the core of Eberle Hall, RNH, Dreiseital, infact I personally would take that core over the cores from Washington Chicago L.A and Pittsuburgh.






Whaaaaat?

To be clear, you are choosing the best two players of Hall/Eberle/RNH/Dreisetal over:

PIT: Crosby/Malkin
CHI: Toews/Kane
WSH: OV/Backstrom
LA: Kopitar/Doughty

Am I reading that right?



not all, Im saying I would take Yakupov RNH Dreisetal Eberle Hall and Nurse as a group, Pitts Chicago washington and L.a all missed on a few of those high draft picks we re talking about, I dont think Edmonton did,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




No way ANYONE would take the Edm core over a core that includes both Crosby AND Malkin IMO. I don't care if the other 3 or 4 were complete duds, those two are two of the top players in the game period! Of course, that's just my opinion.

Also Pasty, in fairness, only one of those other teams had picks that compare to the picks of 1, 1, 1, 7, 3 in a 5 year period that Edm had and that is Pittsburgh (5, 1, 2, 1, 2). It could be argued that Pittsburgh's picks were actually better (better as in they avg out to a higher overall pick). Where Pittsburgh got even more fortunate was in '04 as that was the year they got Malkin at #2, a guy who'd have been #1 overall in most years. Take a look at that draft (2004) and it's scary how big a drop off there is/was from picks 1 and 2 compared to the rest. To date, the next highest scorer in NHL from that draft is D. Krejci, who went late in the 2nd round!

Anyway, back to the picks we were discussing.....here are the picks that landed these guys Beans mentioned.......

Pittsburgh - #5 Whitney, #1 Fleury, #2 Malkin, #1 Crosby, #2 Staal
Chicago - #14 Seabrook, #3 Barker, #7 Skille, #3 Toews, #1 Kane
Los Angeles - #11 Kopitar, #11 Bernier, #4 Hickey, #2 Doughty, #5 Schenn
Washington drafted - #18 Fehr, #1 Ovechkin, #14 Pokulok, #4 Backstrom, #5 Alzner

To me, the key here is the timing Beans mentioned. Beans, saying it took those other teams 2-4 years is and comparing that to Edmonton is fine, but take a closer look at this:
Chicago's 5 are obviously weighted to the last 2 (Toews and Kane). In Kane's first year, they were over .500 and almost made the playoffs missing by just 3 points. They were also fortunate that Duncan Keith, who was picked in the 2nd round the year prior to the Seabrook pick, began to mature into the dman he eventually became, right around the time of the Toews/Kane picks.
For Pittsburgh, it was just 2 years after the Crosby selection where they found the playoffs. This was also only Malkin's 1st year (rookie), even though he was picked the year prior to Crosby, thanks to a transfer dispute between his Russian team and the NHL (or something along those lines?).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is I don't know it's fair to compare these teams the way we have considering they all got different picks, in different drafts, with different levels of talent available, etc......

Bottom line is, IMO, Edmonton should be a playoff team by now, and if nothing else, at least contending for a spot! I'm beginning to think that organization needs a serious overhaul from top to bottom rather than just a coach fired and a rumour / threat of a big bold trade!

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2014 :  19:10:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Although I don't quite agree that I would take the Oilers core over Pittsburgh's cores based on what I know now, I would take that core up against most of the others. Maybe not Chicago but close. The point that was completely missed by everyone was Pasty talking about the role player drafting by those other groups. It was interesting that Pasty didn't look at Washington as I think they are the most comparable team to the Oilers. They drafted some talented high end skill but didn't bring anything with them. Sounds very familiar.

The issue with this team is not their higher end talent. It's the other 15+ players on the team and the fact that the Oilers draft, over the past 10 years, has not materialized anything of value outside of their top 5 picks (Eberle being the lone acceptation). It used to be that the Oilers drafted decent players who then moved to other teams and got good. There are so few players that the Oilers drafted in the past 10 years that have done ANYTHING in the NHL.

Let's put this into an interesting perspective:

In the drafts between 2004 and 2014:

The Oilers have:

-drafted 85 players
-32 of those players have played at least 1 NHL game
-18 players drafted in the 2nd round or later have played in 1065 NHL games ( ave 60 NHL games)
-14 players drafted in the 1st round have played in 2767 games (ave 197 games)

The Chicago Blackhawks
-drafted 108 players
-30 played in the NHL
-22 players were drafted in the 2nd round or later played in 2696 games. (ave. 122 games)
-8 players drafted in the 1st round played 1731 games (ave 216 games)

The moral of the story is you can look all you want at the abundance of top draft picks the Oilers have but it's really not all that much different than other teams in the league have had in the past. The issue is not that top end talent, the issue is the Oilers don't draft as many players as other team because the piss them away in trades and the players they draft out of the 1 round are not as likely to be legit NHL players.


So, winding this all the way back to the original point I was trying to make: if you want to fault the Oilers for their mis-management and poor drafting as a reason to not want to see McDavid in orange and blue, so be it. But do it correctly. It's not the list of early picks that are the issue, it's the terrible team management and poor deep drafting.

Not saying people would do backflips to see a generational talent on a team other than the one they cheer for but the conversation would be more of, "Could you imagine Hall playing with McDavid," in a positive way rather than, "Could you imagine the Oilers with ANOTHER #1 pick," in a negative way if the team had been better managed.

( see above for the longest run-on sentence imaginable)


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Alex116
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6113 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2014 :  16:50:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But Beans, if they were better managed, they wouldn't be in the conversation and prob wouldn't have had three #1's in a row!!! That's the whole point. I could care less about anything they have or haven't done management or coach-wise, I just seems unfair/annoying (not sure the word I'm looking for there?) that after all those high picks that they may get yet another, and this one could very well be a gem of sorts!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2014 :  11:03:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well it's painfully obvious that you have completely missed my point. That's fine. Reality is that other teams were managed significantly better than the Oilers and still had great early picks over successive years.

Done.


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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2014 :  11:17:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well it's painfully obvious that you have completely missed my point. That's fine. Reality is that other teams were managed significantly better than the Oilers and still had great early picks over successive years.

Done.






I always find it amusing when someone as sanctimonious as yourself completely misses a point being made, then lambasts everyone else for missing his point. Classic.

No one's had three #1's in a row. Not one of your teams mentioned. Furthermore, not one of your teams had even a compareable top 3 pick 4 out of 5 years, which the Oilers have had (three #1's, and one #3).

Then you went on to make silly comparisons.

Hey Beans . . . why not quit while you're ahead? Be happy with the assurance that you'll have a fantastic top 5 pick at the end of the year, and move one.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 12/31/2014 :  15:44:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure why you are even getting involved. Is there a rule against disagreeing with someone? Is there a rule against stating the obvious? Is there a rule against exiting a conversation. The answer to all 3 is no. All you are doing by getting involved is trolling to get a response by throwing a personal attack. That behaviour is very unbecoming in any debate. It screams of the high school jock who would try to pick a fight with people when they knew they couldn't compete on an intellectual level.

Just so I can leave this conversation appropriately, let me reiterate the point that was missed so everyone can understand.

The point that was missed, clearly, was that other team built a core of 4-5 key players over a 4-5 years period of time and most of them take 3-4 years after their last core pick to find success. That was my original point and the point I stayed with since the start of this discussion. The fact that the Oilers got 3-#1 picks is irrelevant to my argument. One could argue that a 4 year stretch with nothing worse than a #2 pick is better than the Oilers have had. Others could argue that 5 consecutive years with a top 5 pick is also than the Oilers have had. I have produced multiple examples of teams that prove my opinion. No one has brought any argument to the table to contradict my opinion other than to say the Oilers should be better. No facts, no educated opinions, just baseless statements.

So yes, I can move on. Easily. I have not heard a single argument to make me re-think my opinion so staying involved at this point will do nothing but circle the conversation. What was your point again, other than trying to use big words to which you clearly do not understand the meaning? Considering nothing I have said in this conversation to be sanctimonious it must mean you don't know what it means. If you want to share with the group where I have been morally better than other people or hypocritically pious, please do. Otherwise, I would suggest investing in a dictionary or minimally the time to look up these words online before you use them incorrectly.





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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2015 :  09:46:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well it's painfully obvious that you have completely missed my point. That's fine. Reality is that other teams were managed significantly better than the Oilers and still had great early picks over successive years.

Done.





Sorry to have pained you, but I'm not missing your point whatsoever. I get it. The Oilers have been mismanaged. I agree. No need to argue.
The point you seem to be missing is that most are voting the Oilers in this poll likely because of the numerous high picks they've had already in the recent past. I don't care how good or how bad they're doing, the fact is, they've had these high picks, simple as that. It's no different in fact if they were actually doing really well. Let's look hypothetically and say the Oilers were better managed, drafted support players better, signed free agents better and made better trades resulting in them being a top 3 team right now. Now let's also say they had traded for the rights to Carolin's first overall pick this season, putting them in this poll that way. Guess which team would be running away with this poll then? Yup, the same Oilers.

So, for most, it's the fact they've had these high picks that make people not want to see the Oilers land yet another high one.

That's the way I see it anyway.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2015 :  07:18:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well it's painfully obvious that you have completely missed my point. That's fine. Reality is that other teams were managed significantly better than the Oilers and still had great early picks over successive years.

Done.





Sorry to have pained you, but I'm not missing your point whatsoever. I get it. The Oilers have been mismanaged. I agree. No need to argue.
The point you seem to be missing is that most are voting the Oilers in this poll likely because of the numerous high picks they've had already in the recent past. I don't care how good or how bad they're doing, the fact is, they've had these high picks, simple as that. It's no different in fact if they were actually doing really well. Let's look hypothetically and say the Oilers were better managed, drafted support players better, signed free agents better and made better trades resulting in them being a top 3 team right now. Now let's also say they had traded for the rights to Carolin's first overall pick this season, putting them in this poll that way. Guess which team would be running away with this poll then? Yup, the same Oilers.

So, for most, it's the fact they've had these high picks that make people not want to see the Oilers land yet another high one.

That's the way I see it anyway.



Perfect response, 100% agreed. Exactly the point Beans was evading.

Now see? THERE'S a guy who gets it!

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2015 :  11:05:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any comparable question regarding the Oilers and whether the current roster, draft picks can repeat other teams success at the draft is whether the management and support players can help bring this team to the next level. At this point you cant compare Chicago, Pittsburg or LA to Edmonton because you don't have the
Sutter, Quick, Doughty, Richards etc LA has or the Bylsma, Roberts, Lemieux, Fluery etc Pittsburg had or the Bowman, Crawford Hossa Chicago has to support the draft picks Edmonton has amassed. I know I added a few players added thru the draft such as Quick and Doughty for LA, or Fleury for Pittsburg and Crawford for Chicago, but really Edmonton hasn't landed players to substitute for these players positions or performance and they haven't surrounded these young players with talented veterans to groom the young stars Edmonton has anywhere near the quality of Roberts, Lemieux, Richards or Hossa are/were.

Neither have they the Quality of coaching and management of Sutter and Bowman. This just isn't a fair comparison. Hell the team defense is knowhere near the quality of Chicago or LA and probably a far distance to the quality to Pittsburg which would be the closest comparison.

Plus you would be hinging the comparison to the fact that Eberle, Hall, Hopkins etc are the quality of players drafted thru the other organizations. I am not convince the Edmonton players, any of them, are near the quality of the other non comparible teams. Edmonton may have taken the guy ranked higher in the draft or the best player available, but that was then.

Seguin at this point looks like the better pick and probably better suited for Edmonton's needs than Hall. In 2012 Yakupov's year, there are a few players having greater success, than the sure bet Yakupov was. When he was drafted, Edmonton's needs were defense and goaltending, not another prolific scorer. I am also not convinced Hopkins is the best player available in his draft year or for the Oilers either, as Landeskog and a few other suit Edmonton's needs now better and are having greater success for there teams. This to me might not be the quality of the player, but the quality of the development for the players. Edmonton's development is to drop a #1 draft to the number 1 line and see where the puck drops.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2015 :  12:04:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The topic of this is the Mcdavid sweepstakes, but how I wish it wasn't tainted with the Oilers discussion of past and present failures.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2015 :  07:27:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny. As always.

The point Alex is making is very accurate. If the Oilers were better managed then we would likely not be having this conversation. Also, I disagree with the point that if the Oilers were not a bottom dweller and traded for a early round pick they would be criticized for it. If fact, teams that are able to trade continuously for early round picks are normally applauded. Look at Philly and how they seems to continuously have early round picks even though they were a playoff team for a number of years by trading players for picks. They were not critisised. People were always impressed and surprised how Holmgren was able to pull of those trades.

Regardless, the point I have been arguing and no one has been able to refute is this, posed by Alex, on 12/18/2014:

Bottom line is, IMO, Edmonton should be a playoff team by now, and if nothing else, at least contending for a spot

I have not side step or evaded any argument. I have been pushing this argument from the start. Hence, my statement about people missing my point. People say the Oilers should be better. I say look at other teams in the similar situation and how long it too them to find success. Then people say the Oilers were mismanaged. Then others toss personal attacks as people.

See my point now or is something going to throw something new out and say, "See, Beans missed the point again!"

And to Joshua. Just curious if you had a chance to look at a head to head comparison of Hall and Seguin?? If you did, you would notice:

Hall:
280 games, 102 goals, 147 assists, 249 pts. -28.

That's .36 GPG and 0.88 PPG

Seguin :
321 games, 119 goals, 113 assists, 252 pts. +69

That's 0.37 GPG and 0.78 PPG.

In 1/2 a season less of games Hall has virtually the same points and more assists as a winger than Seguin does at centre. The variance in plus/minus is partially a symptom of the difference in the teams each played on but I would also not argue if someone was to stay that Seguin is a better defensive player than Hall. I could also appreciate that one could argue the Oilers lack of depth at centre would make Seguin a better fit for this team today. One could also argue that if Seguin was drafted over Hall that the Oilers would have noticeable gap on the wing today. Another point could be that if the Oilers have a core of RNH, Eberle, Yakipov, and if they draft McDavid, would you think Hall or Seguin would be the better fit to round out that core?

Ultimately, if you were to flip Hall and Seguin out for one another it doesn't make the Oilers any better than they are today. Their issue is not their top side talent. Their issue is in the middle of the line up, the lack of a stud defensemen, and the lack of a legit #1 goalie.


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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2015 :  09:44:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Funny. As always.
Also, I disagree with the point that if the Oilers were not a bottom dweller and traded for a early round pick they would be criticized for it. If fact, teams that are able to trade continuously for early round picks are normally applauded. Look at Philly and how they seems to continuously have early round picks even though they were a playoff team for a number of years by trading players for picks. They were not critisised. People were always impressed and surprised how Holmgren was able to pull of those trades.


Beans.....I agree with you regarding teams acquiring picks. I too applaud them. However, my point here is to do with the poll. I feel that most people likely would hate to see the Oilers get another #1 REGARDLESS of how they got it. While I would offer "kudos" to the organization for trading for a pick that got them #1, I would still HATE to see it happen. That was my point.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Regardless, the point I have been arguing and no one has been able to refute is this, posed by Alex, on 12/18/2014:

Bottom line is, IMO, Edmonton should be a playoff team by now, and if nothing else, at least contending for a spot

I have not side step or evaded any argument. I have been pushing this argument from the start. Hence, my statement about people missing my point. People say the Oilers should be better. I say look at other teams in the similar situation and how long it too them to find success. Then people say the Oilers were mismanaged. Then others toss personal attacks as people.

See my point now or is something going to throw something new out and say, "See, Beans missed the point again!"


I'm not about to claim you've "missed the point again", however, you never commented (that I recall) on the following, which was part of the post you just pulled that other quote from....
Anyway, back to the picks we were discussing.....here are the picks that landed these guys Beans mentioned.......

Pittsburgh - #5 Whitney, #1 Fleury, #2 Malkin, #1 Crosby, #2 Staal
Chicago - #14 Seabrook, #3 Barker, #7 Skille, #3 Toews, #1 Kane
Los Angeles - #11 Kopitar, #11 Bernier, #4 Hickey, #2 Doughty, #5 Schenn
Washington drafted - #18 Fehr, #1 Ovechkin, #14 Pokulok, #4 Backstrom, #5 Alzner

To me, the key here is the timing Beans mentioned. Beans, saying it took those other teams 2-4 years is and comparing that to Edmonton is fine, but take a closer look at this:
Chicago's 5 are obviously weighted to the last 2 (Toews and Kane). In Kane's first year, they were over .500 and almost made the playoffs missing by just 3 points. They were also fortunate that Duncan Keith, who was picked in the 2nd round the year prior to the Seabrook pick, began to mature into the dman he eventually became, right around the time of the Toews/Kane picks.
For Pittsburgh, it was just 2 years after the Crosby selection where they found the playoffs. This was also only Malkin's 1st year (rookie), even though he was picked the year prior to Crosby, thanks to a transfer dispute between his Russian team and the NHL (or something along those lines?).

It's easy to say that it's taken 2-4 years after the last of the 5 picks for a team to compete, but I think it's still too difficult to compare these examples. NO WAY can we compare in a fair manner teams getting 3 high picks mixed with 2 mid round 1 picks like Washington did to that of the Oilers picks. Let's also look at Chicago. Wanna skew things there a bit? Well, let's take Seabrook out of the equation and bump up their progress a year. Let's start with the #3 pick of Barker and add in the #11 of Kyle Beach. Sure, Seabrook has been more of an impact player than Beach prob ever will be but Beach was actually a higher pick. So why aren't we looking at the Chi picks as #3 Barker, #7 Skille, #3 Toews, #1 Kane and #11 Beach? Regardless, all I'm saying is that it's very difficult to compare these teams and to say that they needed 2-4 years after their last of 5 "core" picks is very misleading when the picks were not the same and obviously the drafts weren't either. It all comes down to drafting and developing well before we even worry about the rest of the team and how it's built. Bottom line is, and it's been my point from the start, the Oilers have had a ridiculous amount of high draft picks in the recent past. THIS, and this alone, is why so many are likely to sour on them getting yet another high one, and possibly landing a talent such as Connor McDavid.

BTW, for what it's worth, look another year back before these picks we've discussed and they also had another high one no one seems to have mentioned. Sam Gagner was drafted 6th overall in '07, one year prior to the Eberle pick at #22.

2007 - 6th overall - Sam Gagner
2008 - 22nd overall - Jordan Eberle
2009 - 10th overall - Magnus Paarjarvi
2010 - 1st overall - Taylor Hall
2011 - 1st overall - Ryan Nugent Hopkins
2012 - 1st overall - Nail Yakupov
2013 - 7th overall - Darnel Nurse
2014 - 3rd overall - Leon Draisaitl
2015 - ??? overall -???

7 top 10's in the past 8 drafts with another coming. We certainly shouldn't be surprised that the Oilers lead this poll.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2015 :  12:24:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is impossible to compare apples to apples straight up because there are so many variable. However, I still don't see how my point is not valid. You could massage the numbers back and forth all you want. My point wasn't what # the player was drafted, it was the time from the last key piece of the puzzle. The 4th or 5th key guy getting drafted. For me, that guy for the Oilers was in 2014. I can appreciate the annoyance of the Oilers drafting early again as a non-oiler fan. Totally get that. But I still think it's short sighted to say the Oilers should be better based on these picks when other teams (as comparable as we can find) did not find success so quickly after they drafted players.

But is very hard to argue the Oilers haven't be blessed with some great early picks in the recent past. Very fair point indeed.




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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2015 :  13:04:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
My point wasn't what # the player was drafted, it was the time from the last key piece of the puzzle. The 4th or 5th key guy getting drafted. For me, that guy for the Oilers was in 2014.



In this case, a rebuild can never fail, as you can always start your measuring stick from the previous year's high pick.

Teams will continue to draft "key pieces of the puzzle" (ie, get high draft picks) as long as they continue to perform badly. If we'd had this discussion back in 2010, we all probably would have agreed that Hall was the last "key piece of the puzzle". In 2011, we probably all would have agreed that Hopkins was that last "key piece to the puzzle". Now in 2015, you're claiming that Draisaitl is the last key piece. If EDM remains where they are this year, I have no doubt that we'll all proclaim McDavid or Eichel as the last "key piece to the puzzle". Unless EDM continues to underperform and has a top-3 pick once again in 2015...

At what point do you look at all the key puzzle pieces that have been assembled in previous years, and decide that the rebuild has actually failed?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2015 :  16:29:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"And to Joshua. Just curious if you had a chance to look at a head to head comparison of Hall and Seguin?? If you did, you would notice:

Hall:
280 games, 102 goals, 147 assists, 249 pts. -28.

That's .36 GPG and 0.88 PPG

Seguin :
321 games, 119 goals, 113 assists, 252 pts. +69

That's 0.37 GPG and 0.78 PPG."

Id thought I would answer this because it was directed to me. Not a bad comparison between 2 players who haven't exactly taken the same route to the top line in there respective careers. Had Seguin landed in Edmonton, his stats would been even more incredible than they are now, by the fact he would have been playing his entire career on the Top 6 in Edmonton, rather than half of his career on a defense first 3rd and 4th line in Boston, only to see regular top 6 minutes at irregular points in Boston and now full time in Dallas. The fact he is so much better in the plus minus has a lot to do with how this kid was developed. Which was my final point. Edmontons Development has not been great with the players they have picked, more slanted to offense first. Any wonder why then that they haven't seen a lick of playoff time?

And to your second question of whether or not Edmonton would be better or worse with either Seguin or Hall, I am gonna suggest they would be better with Seguin. Even during that draft year it was well known that both had tremendous offensive talent, but Seguin was considered a more rounded player. It was suggested that Hall had the greater offensive potential and that was why Seguin went second and Hall went first. I would suggest the Oilers could have used the more balanced approach of Seguin's more rounded 2way game and as you have pointed out the offensive production isn't much different.

If I was a top player at this years draft, I would smile for the cameras but have my fingers cross you miss being picked for Edmonton this year.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/06/2015 18:03:28
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2015 :  11:58:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting Puck Daddy article re "McEichel" and where they "should" go.....

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/jack-eichel-and-connor-mcdavid-must-go-to-carolina-or-arizona-041542314.html
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2015 :  11:18:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well well well.....look what the Oilers have been gifted! It goes without saying that this was an unpopular result league wide. While many didn't like The Sabres and their intentional tanking over the past year or two, the consensus is that Edmonton deserved the pick even less due to their ineptitude after already having three recent #1 overall picks!

I can only be happy that a most undeserving team like Boston or LA didn't win it!!!

Either way, congrats to the Oilers and their fans, I guess? Surely they will not screw this up? It will be most interesting to see what sort of move(s) they make now as defence and goaltending are still very much a work in progress!!!
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
285 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2015 :  05:14:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

You guys are just piling on now!

Of course I want the kid to play on my team. Every fans wants him to play on their team. Edmonton would be helped with a kid like this. However, Ripley makes a very very good point. The issue with this team is the lack of meat in the middle of the line up. The superstars type players are doing their jobs.

If Edmonton did have the #1 pick I would be happy to see them move this once in a generation talent for a true, elite, #1 defensemen plus a few spare parts. That would be more beneficial to this team than another #1 pick.



i'm very interested to see if Beans would still be happy if Edmonton traded the pick?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2015 :  06:54:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMO, unless McDavid either publicly or privately expresses his desire to avoid Edmonton all together, which i doubt he does, i can't see any way thebOilers move that pick. Just not gonna happen and it would surely net them more than Beans' desired "elite dman and spare parts"!!! Now, it's been mentioned they may move another guy or two for some hwlp on the back end including one or more of their other #1 picks but a generational talent like McDavid moving is unlikely.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2015 :  21:29:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tough to say this, but . . . although I voted Edmonton in this poll, I am glad that Arizona or Buffalo didn't win it.

As a Leafs fan . . . would have been that much tougher to watch my Buds play McDavid on the Sabres 6 times a year. Eichel may turn out just as good, but it just won't be the same, I think. And Arizona . . . ugh, so glad this great young player isn't going to a dead hockey market in the desert.

It's a Canadian market, one that will truly appreciate this kid, and at least they have the best ice in the league.

Bloody Oilers. sigh.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2015 :  12:22:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know, I said earlier in this forum that the last place I would want Eichel or Mcdavid to go was Edmonton, but at that time they were sitting in last place and just finished the worst stretch of hockey in Oilers history. How the season ended up by them climbing a few positions, maturing some of the talent on the roster and battling thru key injuries, I am now happy Mcdavid or Eichel might end up in Edmonton. I am hoping this time next year to see them push towards a position in the playoffs. The way Buffalo and Pheonix made a dive towards the bottom was embarrassing. It one thing to be that bad but to design your own downfall midseason was bad for the whole league. Hate the fact one of these 2 talents will end up in Buffalo, who traded away any player still fighting for the win and a fan base openly cheering for a loss.
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