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Guest9044
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 Posted - 01/07/2009 : 05:03:52
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Poll Question:
Will Taveres shatter Gretzky record of 215 points in the NHL
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Guest1738
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Posted - 01/07/2009 : 05:19:35
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| What a dumb poll. Wait until he makes it to the NHL before dreaming things he might do. |
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Guest8677
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Posted - 01/07/2009 : 05:45:10
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| If Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin aren't doing it in todays NHL then he wont either. Silly question anyways... |
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Guest9289
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Posted - 01/07/2009 : 06:03:39
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Tavares definitely has the talent to break Gretzky's record of 215 points, so does Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. The problem that most people do not understand is Gretzky's record will never be broken, unless the hockey rules change. Look at the goalie pads back when Gretzky use to play hockey. I am not taking away anything from the great one, he is the great one, but we cannot compare players from today's hockey vs the generation when Gretzky use to play. But we can compare the players overall play compared to Gretzky, not the number of points in the season. Even Gretzky back then said that stats are for losers. All that to say that hockey has changed alot since then, it's harder to score goals. The players including goalies are better today than they use to be.
So to answer your question, there are players in today's NHL, if played during Gretzky's era, would break is record. This record will stay up there for a very long time, unless the hockey rules change.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2009 : 12:05:49
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Not to trash talk Tavares, he is going to be a star in the NHL someday, but I'm not even sure he was the best player on his team in World Juniors, it was close with a couple others.
Regarding breaking Gretzky's records, I disagree that the league was as easy to score in as other posters claim. Easier than today's league perhaps but not exponentially enough that any of today's players could get the same points if time travel were a reality.
Gretzky was just that good!
He not only led scoring, he crushed scoring. The year he got 215, the closest player to him was Mario, and he was 74 points back! That's a little more talent than just, 'the league had more scoring then'. If a Tavares or a Crosby or an Ovechkin can outscore the field by more than 70 points, hell, even 30-40 points, then maybe, they can be called a challenge to the statistical dominance of Gretzky. Until then, just wishful thinking. |
Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 01/07/2009 12:36:13 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2009 : 13:05:14
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The league was higher scoring in Gretzky's time, but even if you adjust the numbers, a 200 point season today is out of the question. As a previous poster cited, under the rules and structure of the game today, I don't think it's possible. Even a Gretzky or a Lemieux in their prime wouldn't get a 200 point season today.
Without going into a ton of specifics,the NHL through the 80's averaged about 7.5 goals per game.(in Gretzky's prime). In 07/08, it was around 6. So, consider that today's scoring is 20% less than it was in the 80's.
That means Gretzky's 215 points in a season would be around 172 points today. Conversly, Ovechkin's 112 points last season would translate into about 135 points back in the 80's. Consider that the year Gretzky had 215, there were 3 other players with 130+ points. Not much different than the players who are tops in the league today.
IF Tavares (or any other player for that matter) was to eclipse the 160 point plateau in today's NHL, it would be unreal. And, if someone was to eclipe the 215 point plateau in today's NHL(which will not happen), it would be similar to a player in the 80's scoring 260 points. Nothing like a 3+ PPG average for a season, hey!!
Simply put, never going to happen. |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2009 : 13:15:07
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i agree that around that era it was easier to score goals. but still 215 points is amazing. i think that crosby and oveckin can do it, one day, when they play for a team as good as the 1980 oilers. and its hard to say how tavares will do though, when hes actually playing in the NHL we'll see. who knows he could be a total bust. but i highly doubt with his knowledge and skill that will happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9289
Tavares definitely has the talent to break Gretzky's record of 215 points, so does Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. The problem that most people do not understand is Gretzky's record will never be broken, unless the hockey rules change. Look at the goalie pads back when Gretzky use to play hockey. I am not taking away anything from the great one, he is the great one, but we cannot compare players from today's hockey vs the generation when Gretzky use to play. But we can compare the players overall play compared to Gretzky, not the number of points in the season. Even Gretzky back then said that stats are for losers. All that to say that hockey has changed alot since then, it's harder to score goals. The players including goalies are better today than they use to be.
So to answer your question, there are players in today's NHL, if played during Gretzky's era, would break is record. This record will stay up there for a very long time, unless the hockey rules change.
Leafsfan_94
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Guest2715
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Posted - 01/07/2009 : 14:55:05
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The better poll would ask if Tavares will have a long carear as a top 10 scorer in the NHL, or will he be the next Alexandre Daigle, Joe Murphy or Brian Lawton?
He won't touch 200 points a season, his skating is not consistently strong, and his forecheck is non-existent. He shows some bursts against kids in jr, and has great hands and stick skills,BUT SO DID MANY OTHER GUYS WHO COULD NOT PERFORM AS BRILLIANTLY IN THE NHL.
Daigle was in fact, a 10x better skater than JT at 18. JT has to work on faceoffs also. If JT works out well, I see a lot of similarities with Joe Thornton or Jason Spezza as far as success in the NHL and that's nothing to sneeze at, but let's not even compare him to Lemieux, Gretz, Sid the Kid, and Stevie Y. They were ahead of JT at 18, better skaters, more complete players on all ends of the ice. Even Dougie Gilmour was a much more complete player than JT at 18. Scouts just did not take a chance on picking him higher because of size.
I don't think JT or Hedman are automatic franchise players, they are just solid safe picks to make the NHL, but nothing else. Others maybe questioned because of their size, but their just as skilled and could be better than both Tavares and Hedman at age 25-30. That's what would matter the most to me, if I were a GM. |
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JERJ2008
Top Prospect
Canada
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2009 : 17:34:11
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| It's a different game now. I can't see anyone getting more than 150 anymore. Everyone plays better now, the standouts of the league now aren't putting up those numbers. |
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Guest6030
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Posted - 01/11/2009 : 08:05:39
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We cannot compare 2 different era and 2 different teams. I agree with the math, but I believe that if Malkin, or Crosby, or Ovechkin (too early to say Tavares) would play in their prime in Gretzky's time, I believe they would probable eclipse Gretzky's 215 point in a season record or come close to it. But this will never happen in today's game, not only because hockey has changed, but also because players including goalies are better, the teams are much more competitive.
All that to say, Gretzky's 215 point record will remain there forever.
But if i were to compare talent for talent, I believe Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and Tavares are up there with Gretzky. One thing though, I believe Lemieux has the most amazing talent. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2009 : 12:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6030
We cannot compare 2 different era and 2 different teams. I agree with the math, but I believe that if Malkin, or Crosby, or Ovechkin (too early to say Tavares) would play in their prime in Gretzky's time, I believe they would probable eclipse Gretzky's 215 point in a season record or come close to it. But this will never happen in today's game, not only because hockey has changed, but also because players including goalies are better, the teams are much more competitive.
All that to say, Gretzky's 215 point record will remain there forever.
But if i were to compare talent for talent, I believe Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and Tavares are up there with Gretzky. One thing though, I believe Lemieux has the most amazing talent.
Absolutely not. Not even close. Seriously, think of the talent that was played in and around the 80's when Gretzky was dropping 200+ point season. Lemieux only came close once. He, above any other player who has every played the game, had the skills to possibly eclipse Gretzky. Think of the others great offensive players from the 80's that didn't come close. Yzerman, Jagr, Lafontaine, Stastny, Dionne, Bossy. They never came close. I might conceed that if guys like Lefleur and Esposito were in the 140+ seasons range in the 70's, they might have (along with Lemieux) had a chance at a 200+ season. And that is a maybe.
I don't think some people are giving the respect to the 200+ point season. How about the fact that only 2 player have ever had more than 160 points in a season!!!
All due respect to today's superstars, even in the 80's, they do no even get a sniff of 200 points. They would be in that group of awesome players that Lemieux and Gretzky made to appear average by comparison.
Seriously, little shake of the head required. Not only will we never see the 200+ point season again, but the offensive talents and production of Gretzky will also never again happen. And there is no player in the NHL (of any other league for that matter) today that could get 200+ points in any era of hockey. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 01/11/2009 12:19:28 |
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Guest6030
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Posted - 01/11/2009 : 15:32:09
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i disagree with the last quote. First of all, I think Gretzky amazing, dont get me wrong. But i am simply talking about talent now, not records. I can tell u that the hockey players of today are much better than before. The games are tighter, defense is better, goalies are btter and more equiped. So scoring goals is tougher. And yes, Gretzky's record will never be broken, but that does not mean that a player from todays era, if played in Gretzky's era at their prime, would not be able to break the record. Thats what you are saying and I totally disagree with that. Another thing the year Lemieux got his 199 points, i think he also had 85 goals that year, he missed 9 games that year or even more, not sure how much. So if you consider those 9 games played, he would of broke Gretzky's record. But lets not talk about record, only talent. On a talent per talent basis, Lemieux is superior to Gretzky. And some of the young players of today (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares) if all goes well and are surrounded properly, they will show us their talent, which i believe are comparable to Gretzky.
Again, im not talking about records here, but talent.I did follow both Gretzlly's and Lemieux's career. |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/12/2009 : 12:54:40
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Lemieux was playing with a very bad back.... and half his career he was in and out of the hospital.... but yet he was posting unreal numbers. 99 is the best..... but if lemieux was 100% healthy like wayne was.... i think 66 had much better talent.
Just an opinion and he was not healthy so it never happen so we shall never know |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/12/2009 : 12:56:47
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| ANd also...... u could not touch 99 in those days of the nhl... The nhl protected wayne and anyone who touched him was going to get suspended because he brought hockey to the US. Imagine if Crosby couldn;t get touch now...... Im sry but he would post much better unreal numbers |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2009 : 13:29:32
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I am also not talking about stats, I am talking about Talent. Seriously, take the time to watch some old games and you will soon see that there is not a player in the game that could see the game as well, produce the puck to the right place at the right time, or be in the right position at the right time better than Gretzky. Most hockey today is very systematic and players are coached into being the certain places during certain plays. If I could pick a single facit to the game that is different today than it was before, this is it. Looking back at the 70's and 80's, the game was a lot more creative and those uber creative players flourished. The two guys that did this better than anyone else (ever) were Orr and Gretzky. The guys today could not duplicate what those two did because they don't have the creativeness or the vision for the game.
I don't care what era, what league, what kind of hockey is being played, the two best ever were Gretzky and Orr. No one before their time, during their time, or since their time can even hold a candle to how creative and brilliant these two guys were. Lemieux was the next closest. But as far as Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin and the likes, it's not even close. |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/12/2009 : 13:38:18
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| its probly not that hard to see the ice when u never have to owrry about getting touched by anyone. imagine crosby not ever getting touched..... i bet u any money he coulda seen the ice as well as anyone as a playmaker but yet he has to look everywhere cause ppl are constantly harrassing him |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2009 : 09:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9278
its probly not that hard to see the ice when u never have to owrry about getting touched by anyone. imagine crosby not ever getting touched..... i bet u any money he coulda seen the ice as well as anyone as a playmaker but yet he has to look everywhere cause ppl are constantly harrassing him
Garbage. There is such a misconception that Gretzky didn't get hit. It was definately a well known fact that if someone took liberties with Gretzky that someone (Semenko, McClelland, McSorley) would take care of business, but that doesn't mean that Gretzky was never touched.
Watch any playoff series from 1980-2000 that Gretzky was involved in and tell me he was never hit.
It's total garbage. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2009 : 09:14:03
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| Beans ol boy don't lose any sweat over it. 9/10 when someone talks about Gretz and his crying, never getting hit, etc..antics they've never actually seen him play game. |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 09:44:20
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oh i see him play....
He barily ever got hit.... when he went to LA the nhl protected him 100%
Did u even see lots of his goals..... shots from the blue line coming in where the goalie cant even do nothing cause there pads were so small they didnt even go down.... cause no one knew the butterfly style.
I bet u any money atleast 20% of waynes points woulda not counted with the butterfly style goalie and the pads size.... its just freakin common sense.... go on youtube and see for yourself.... so many goals goalie dont even go down..... such a freakin joke! |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 09:46:50
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| Im not saying wayne gretzky is not good.... he is rly good i seen him play in person! He is amazing but to be called alot better than everyone else is absurd and no one can prove that cause its just not the same league. i still say lemieux was better but then again like i said before he was not healthy once in his career but yet he dominated the league with a half broken back. if 100% healthy, 66 would get my vote but he was not so like i said we may never know |
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Guest6688
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9289
Tavares definitely has the talent to break Gretzky's record of 215 points, so does Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. The problem that most people do not understand is Gretzky's record will never be broken, unless the hockey rules change. Look at the goalie pads back when Gretzky use to play hockey. I am not taking away anything from the great one, he is the great one, but we cannot compare players from today's hockey vs the generation when Gretzky use to play. But we can compare the players overall play compared to Gretzky, not the number of points in the season. Even Gretzky back then said that stats are for losers. All that to say that hockey has changed alot since then, it's harder to score goals. The players including goalies are better today than they use to be.
So to answer your question, there are players in today's NHL, if played during Gretzky's era, would break is record. This record will stay up there for a very long time, unless the hockey rules change.
"So to answer your question, there are players in today's NHL, if played during Gretzky's era, would break is record."
How do you say that so definitively after what you said in the first part?
Who exactly would break his record?
Mario Lemieux is by far more talented than any one of Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin and the closest he came was 199 points in 76 games (Gretzky 215 in 80).
You say goalies are better, true, but then players are also in a lot better shape and stronger than they were in the early 80s, imagine how many points Gretzky would have put up back then if he was as fit as today's players. They used to use training camp to get in shape back then, now they train pretty much all year around.
Gretzky still had to have the talent to do what he did, he still almost put 100 point seasons at the age of 36, 37 back in the late 90s. |
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Guest6688
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9278
oh i see him play....
He barily ever got hit.... when he went to LA the nhl protected him 100%
Did u even see lots of his goals..... shots from the blue line coming in where the goalie cant even do nothing cause there pads were so small they didnt even go down.... cause no one knew the butterfly style.
I bet u any money atleast 20% of waynes points woulda not counted with the butterfly style goalie and the pads size.... its just freakin common sense.... go on youtube and see for yourself.... so many goals goalie dont even go down..... such a freakin joke!
A lot of players "barely ever got hit" in Gretzky's day that doesn't mean they have the talent to put up 215 points in season.
Take away 20% of Gretzky's points and he still has 2285 career points, 338 more than 2nd place Messier (and that is without adjusting Messier's stats). |
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Guest6688
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6688
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9278
oh i see him play....
He barily ever got hit.... when he went to LA the nhl protected him 100%
Did u even see lots of his goals..... shots from the blue line coming in where the goalie cant even do nothing cause there pads were so small they didnt even go down.... cause no one knew the butterfly style.
I bet u any money atleast 20% of waynes points woulda not counted with the butterfly style goalie and the pads size.... its just freakin common sense.... go on youtube and see for yourself.... so many goals goalie dont even go down..... such a freakin joke!
A lot of players "barely ever got hit" in Gretzky's day that doesn't mean they have the talent to put up 215 points in season.
Take away 20% of Gretzky's points and he still has 2285 career points, 338 more than 2nd place Messier (and that is without adjusting Messier's stats).
That is actually 398 more points than Messier. |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:51:28
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agreed.... but was messier a better point producer than AO or Malkin ?????
i highly doubt that |
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Guest9278
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Posted - 01/13/2009 : 11:57:16
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Maybe 99 is the best.... but alot of u guys are putting him in a league of his own which i think u cannot say cause the facts that u mention are all bias. There not way of saying who is better...... there is not way and all i said was my opinion is some players could be up thr if they played in that era of hockey.... as for lemieux... like i said 99 was better but 66 was hurt so we will never know what would of happen if 66 was healthy like 99...... so therefore 99 is better im just putting a theory.in place. Just like saying what if pavel bure had a healthy career.... oh could he ever put a puck in the net. but he was not so u dont hear about him anymore.
thx |
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Guest9289
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Posted - 01/14/2009 : 05:45:21
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| Again, people seem to be responding to my posts about records..we cannot compare records here. We can however compare talent level. And i think by far Mario Lemieux has the best talent of all...gretzky, crosby, ovechkin, malkin, etc. If it werent for his back problems, cancer, etc, he would of been even more dominent, and probably of shattered gretzky's record, but lets put aside records because its hard to compare. But on a talent level, noone for now can beat Lemieux, not even Gretzky. |
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Avalanche_17
Top Prospect
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 06:50:40
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| There is no way Tavares will break Gretzky's record. Hockey is different enough that no one, no matter how good, will reach that point mark. I don't even know if he will do really well in his first year in the NHL. People are so hyped up about him getting into the NHL it is getting blown out of proportion. I am wondering if he will end up crashing and burning. Look at what happened to Stamkos. All eyes were on him for helping bring Tampa out of the hole they are in. Well, obviously that isn't happening with Tampa's poor record and Stamkos 15 points this season so far. Now I am not saying Stamkos sucks or Tavares but people just need to lower their expectations a bit. |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 06:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Avalanche_17
There is no way Tavares will break Gretzky's record. Hockey is different enough that no one, no matter how good, will reach that point mark. I don't even know if he will do really well in his first year in the NHL. People are so hyped up about him getting into the NHL it is getting blown out of proportion. I am wondering if he will end up crashing and burning. Look at what happened to Stamkos. All eyes were on him for helping bring Tampa out of the hole they are in. Well, obviously that isn't happening with Tampa's poor record and Stamkos 15 points this season so far. Now I am not saying Stamkos sucks or Tavares but people just need to lower their expectations a bit.
You may have something there. Before and during the draft they just kept ranting, raving and hyping up Stamkos. Not to say Stamkos sucks but they built him up to the point where it would be impossible not to disappoint when he played in the NHL. If you watch Tavares, he is good. However, he has a major problem with skating, skating is a major part of the new NHL. His goal scoring ability sometimes is lacking. Watching the Canadian Juniors most of his goals were him just sitting at the side of the net. Once again I am not saying he sucks but the more he is hyped up the more disappointed everyone is going to be when in his rookie season he only gets 50-70 points. Overall great points, I agree completely.
Crosby is not the Jesus Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 07:04:53
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| I have to agree with Reeders assesment of Tavares (and Stamkos) I found most of his goals were right place at the right time. It didn't seem he had the ability to create for himself or get separation from the opposing players. And we're talking at a Jr. level here. Not taking anything away from him, because you need an incredible hockey mind to always be in the right place at the right time. I'm just not sure if his skill set transfers over to him being able to live up to the hype. I'd hate to say this but give me Filatov thank you very much. |
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deadalive
Top Prospect
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 08:13:27
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| Lindros, Daigle, Thornton, Lecavalier, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, all were super hyped. Probably as much, or more so than Tavares. None of them have ever put up any numbers to even start thinking it might even be possible to come close. If Tavares ever gets more than 110 in a season that will be huge for him. I agree with everyone who thinks this is a silly poll. Gretzkys 215 will never be beat. His 92 goals however... Maybe.... That would certainly make for a better poll than this... |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 08:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by deadalive
Lindros, Daigle, Thornton, Lecavalier, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, all were super hyped. Probably as much, or more so than Tavares. None of them have ever put up any numbers to even start thinking it might even be possible to come close. If Tavares ever gets more than 110 in a season that will be huge for him. I agree with everyone who thinks this is a silly poll. Gretzkys 215 will never be beat. His 92 goals however... Maybe.... That would certainly make for a better poll than this...
You have a point. But I disagree. Crosby, Ovechkin, Lecavlier, Malkin, and Thornton were never hyped up that much. But I do agree with the possibility of 92 goals being beat.
Crosby is not the Jesus Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire. |
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deadalive
Top Prospect
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 05:05:14
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| Really? Where are you from? I heard way more about those guys than I have about Tavares. Crosby especially. I knew about him when he was 10, and I'm from the west coast. Do you not remember Gretzky saying he would be the one to break all his records? |
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deadalive
Top Prospect
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 05:08:56
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| Ahhh. You're 17... Thornton and Lecavalier were hyped huge too. |
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Avalanche_17
Top Prospect
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 06:44:33
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| Ya, but I don't remember these guys being hyped to the point where I don't want to watch the talks by commentators in between intermissions of a hockey game. It is getting old and really annoying. All I hear is Tavares this and Tavares that, where is he going to go? How many points will he get? What is his agent thinking? Which team would benefit the most from having him on his team? Over and over and over again. I mean, he is a decent player but come on, there are other things to talk about. So sure Thorton and Lecavalier were talked about quite a bit but not to this point. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 08:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Avalanche_17
Ya, but I don't remember these guys being hyped to the point where I don't want to watch the talks by commentators in between intermissions of a hockey game. It is getting old and really annoying. All I hear is Tavares this and Tavares that, where is he going to go? How many points will he get? What is his agent thinking? Which team would benefit the most from having him on his team? Over and over and over again. I mean, he is a decent player but come on, there are other things to talk about. So sure Thorton and Lecavalier were talked about quite a bit but not to this point.
They absolutely were. Even more so to a certain degree. When I really remember the draft picked getting hyped was Eric Lindros and Pat Falloon. Falloon was touted as the "Next One" and Lindros was going to be better than Lemieux. Then came Daigle, Lecavalier, Thornton, and the likes of Ovechkin and such.
There may be been guys before 91 that were being talked about in juniors as Tavares is today, but I don't recall. But to your point, definately, and specifically Lindros. There was no player since that has been hyped nearly as much as that. And that was back when there was only one national sports TV channel. Now there are 3!!
I think the thing is since Gretzky and Lemieux started aging and retiring, the Canadian Hockey Fan needed the next great hope. The player that was going to be head and shoulders above every other player and that figurehead that Canadian fans can always turn to and say, "A Canadian is the best player in the league." Since Lemiuex and Gretzky hung up the skates, there has not been a Canadian that has been the best in the world, hands down. One could argue that guys like Iginla, Lecavalier, Thornton, and Crosby (among others), but they are not hands down better than Ovechkin, Datsyuk, Malkin etc.
And I hate to break it to all those hopefully people out there, Tavares will never be the best player in the NHL. At least not until he learns how to skate. |
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deadalive
Top Prospect
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:44:15
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Isn't it you beans, who argues Gretzky couldn't skate?
I agree though, (about Tavares, not Gretzky). Just saying...
Like I said, if Tavares ever gets 110 points that'll be huge for him. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 16:19:23
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Yes, I am one of those who knew that Gretzky was far from the best skater on the ice. Not the worst by any stretch, but staking was definately not one of Gretzky's strength.
I say 110 point season for Tavares is not out of the question, as long as he has a good set up person with him. But definately not for a few years and definately not his rookie season. I would say more line season 4-5. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 16:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Yes, I am one of those who knew that Gretzky was far from the best skater on the ice. Not the worst by any stretch, but staking was definately not one of Gretzky's strength.
I say 110 point season for Tavares is not out of the question, as long as he has a good set up person with him. But definately not for a few years and definately not his rookie season. I would say more line season 4-5.
I haven't followed Tavares all that closely, but I think calling him 4-5 seasons away from a 110 point season is an overstatement. Ovechkin and Crosby cracked 100 in their first seasons, and Malkin did it in his second. Even Eric Staal did it in his second season.
Consider that Tavares is expected to be better than them all. Of the bottom 7 teams, the Thrashers, Kings, Senators, and Lightning all have players that have been or will be in the top 10 in scoring for a good portion of their careers. The Islanders, Blues and Leafs have guys that could play well with Tavares also.
I'm not calling on him to go anywhere near Gretzky's records, but I think that unless he's a bust, he will definitely crack the 100 point mark by his second season and the 110 mark before his fourth. Three years is forever in the NHL. Any one of the teams that might be in a position to draft Tavares could land themselves a player to feed off him in that time frame.
Sign up for the Great Debate! |
Edited by - Alex on 01/17/2009 16:37:23 |
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Guest8346
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Posted - 01/19/2009 : 16:02:26
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Tavares will be good, but lets face it there was a huge debate on whethter or not he should even go #1 in the draft pre world junior tourny, I believe he laid it rest but that aside say if he does manage to excel and become gretzkyess the fact of the matter is goalies are bigger, defensemen are stronger, the game has changed, the skill level is higher (not as much as some people are saying but higher nonetheless) and I believe the skills of the coaches and there systems are more advanced, they have answers for those highly skilled players now, although they still will score they wont score as much as they would 20 years ago.
Gretzky was the face of hockey, and still should be as his records will never be broken |
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Reeder17
Rookie
Canada
112 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 17:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8346
Tavares will be good, but lets face it there was a huge debate on whethter or not he should even go #1 in the draft pre world junior tourny, I believe he laid it rest but that aside say if he does manage to excel and become gretzkyess the fact of the matter is goalies are bigger, defensemen are stronger, the game has changed, the skill level is higher (not as much as some people are saying but higher nonetheless) and I believe the skills of the coaches and there systems are more advanced, they have answers for those highly skilled players now, although they still will score they wont score as much as they would 20 years ago.
Gretzky was the face of hockey, and still should be as his records will never be broken
I disagree. All the tourny showed us about Tavares just confirms he scores garbage goals. I admit his one against the U.S was nice, however, each one of his other goals were him just standing there and banging it in or banking it off the goalie. Now not to say knowing where to be is not a skill, I just think his skill is exaggerated. We all remember Tucker don't we? Remember his like 30 goals in one season where he was sat at the side of the net and fed the puck. A similar situation in which a player with little to no skill produced high numbers. Once again I am not comparing the two as players but the situation is similar. And I am not saying Tavares is horrible...just his stats and skill are a bit over exaggerated.
Crosby is not the Jesus Lord & Savior of the NHL, get over yourself McGuire.
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs. |
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Guest2715
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Posted - 01/19/2009 : 17:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Yes, I am one of those who knew that Gretzky was far from the best skater on the ice. Not the worst by any stretch, but staking was definately not one of Gretzky's strength.
I say 110 point season for Tavares is not out of the question, as long as he has a good set up person with him. But definately not for a few years and definately not his rookie season. I would say more line season 4-5.
Beans, I don't know how old you are...but if you watch Gretzky played games early in his carear with Edmonton, you'd notice that he was one of the fastest, if not the fastest guy on the ice. He could beat anybody for a loose puck in his early to mid 20's. This is why he was also rarely clocked with a bodycheck early in his carear. (He was also protected by Glen Sather, who usually put an enforcer on his line along Jari Kurri) You also notice that the Oilers as a team were noticeably a faster paced team than any other in the NHL in those years. When you watched an Oiler game, and another between two other teams. It looked as if they were two different leagues. Gretzky's play, anticipation and speed had a lot to do with that fast tempo the Oilers played and I'm not even a big Gretzky fan, as I believe Lemieux was a better forward and Orr the best player overall.
True, other guys like Yzerman, Denis Savard and of course Lemieux were just as strong in skating. Messier also added a brute physical force to go along with sheer speed, but up until Gretzky went to L.A, he could skate with anybody in the NHL. Gretzky got older, got a few injuries that slowed him down. (Remember Macoun's hit on him in the '91 Canada Cup) The league did become more of a skating league as more Russian players came into the league in the 90's. His skating looked more ordinary as he slowed down, but in his early years, he was a much better skater than most who've played in the NHL, and a much better skater than John Tavares, or Eric Lindros at 18...that's for sure. |
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Will Tavares shatter Gretzky's record 
