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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2009 : 17:57:21
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Whoa, now. Let's give credit where credit is do. All of the top goal scorers of all time have their share of "garbage" goals and none of them relied completely on garbage goals. Before I go further, in no way am I saying Tavares is the end all, be all, but c'mon. The kid was the youngest (unless you count Bobby Orr) to play in the OHL. Above this, the kid has 157 goals in 191 OHL games. That's an average of 0.82. To put that into perspective. Here is a list of some other notable players in when they were OHL (or other major junior hockey) players.
Wayne Gretzky - 1.04 Goals per Game(GPG)
Mario Lemieux - 1.24 GPG
Mike Bossy - 1.17 GPG
Brett Hull - 1.43 GPG
Marcel Dionne - 1.04 GPG
Mike Gartner - 0.58 GPG
Mark Messier - 0.52 GPG
Steve Yzerman - 0.55 GPG
Luc Robitaille - 0.78 GPG
So there is the list of the all time leading goal scorers in NHL history. All with the exception of Gordie Howe. I coun't see to find any stats from his junior career. Not even sure if he had a junior career or if they kept stats from junior back in the early 40's.
My point is this, a player in the OHL that is getting up in the range of Tavares in scoring means one of two things. Firstly, the kid has game. Secondly, it takes more than garbage to drop in 4 goals every 5 games (on average). He ranks in the middle of the all time scorers in NHL history when they were in the OHL.
Again, I am not saying he is the messiah. He's got a ways to go on his skating, overall defense, and his 6' - 203lbs makes him only average in size. But, as many of the scouts would agree with, the kid has hands of absolute gold and has a nose for the net. Serious potential at this point, and definately more than just "garbage" potential in my books. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 14:40:50
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| we don't even know if Tavares is even going to shine in the NHL or if he's going to flunk like Alexander Daigle. Over the years a lot of hockey players from Junoir hockey were expected to be the next Wayne Gretzky and when they came to the NHL they were just average hockey players. So don't just expect him to come into the NHL as another Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Yzerman, Ovechkin, or Malkin. Wait for him to prove himself playing with MEN in the NHL before you expect greatness from a kid. He may shine, but he may fail too. NHL hockey is a lot different hockey than Junior, The NHL is tougher, faster, a lot bigger fan base meaning a lot more pressure. Who knows how he will perform, but I doubt he'll come anywhere near any of Gretzky's records. Someone will eventually, but that's not going to happen for hundreds of years to come |
Edited by - hanley6 on 01/24/2009 14:42:46 |
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Guest4031
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Posted - 03/06/2009 : 08:17:10
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| i have never seen such a dumb question |
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Guest0468
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Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:11:42
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| It all depends on team-mates and the current rules of the games. |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:12:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Garbage. There is such a misconception that Gretzky didn't get hit.
There's a quote around somewhere (though I forget from who) that says something along the lines of "Believe me, I tried to hit Gretzky, but by the time I got to where he was he wasn't there anymore."
I agree though, there's no way anyone touches Gretzky's record for points in a season. As good as Tavares has the potential to be and as good as Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin are there's just no way that record gets broken barring some huge change in the way the game is currently played (i.e. bigger nets, smaller goalie equipment etc...)
quote:
Originally posted by Reeder17
Gretzky has never once high-sticked a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
He was bodychecked by one though. |
Edited by - spade632 on 03/16/2009 11:17:53 |
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Guest8801
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Posted - 04/02/2009 : 10:43:57
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As others have mentioned, that record will never be approached, let alone shattered, unless the league makes some drastic changes in rules and goalie equipment.
And I have to agree with Fat Elvis - Gretzky really was just that much better.
Lastly, like others have said, Taveres may not even go one to have a great career, let alone shatter 215 points. No one aside from Gretzky has even broken 200 ever; I highly doubt Taveres will be the one to do it. Everyone wants to have a "next one" - we see Crosby and try to speculate about him. Then Ovechkin starts scoring like a maniac, and everyone wants it to be him. Then Malkin steps up his game, and people speculate about him too. Taveres seems to be the next person in line. But honestly, none of these players are really dominating the league to the degree that Orr, Gretzky, or Lemieux did while they were in their primes.
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Guest5069
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Posted - 04/19/2009 : 13:02:21
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| You guys are all insane Gretz was the bomb and todays league is designed to be higher scoring than it was back then. Todays rules are geared for more goals and more exciting hockey. So no it wasn't easier to score goals back then. The only reason Malkin or Crosby have the numbers they do is because of todays rules put em in a game back then they'd have 2 thirds the points they have in todays game. Gretz was just twice as good as anybody else at the time the same can't be said for anybody now adays. |
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Guest8941
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Posted - 04/19/2009 : 16:54:26
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"shatter" LOL
Whoever started this stupid thread should just pack it in. |
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Guest8241
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Posted - 04/20/2009 : 11:31:38
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| So the draft hasn't happened yet and we're already talking about record breaking? With all respect to J-T...lest we forget, Alexander Daigle... |
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Guest1767
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Posted - 04/20/2009 : 15:27:19
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| the record will never be touch, end of discussion, u wont see a player reach 150 points again in this league... |
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Bruins Fan
Top Prospect
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2009 : 05:35:50
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| Never say never. It could happen in the future. |
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Guest0112
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Posted - 04/21/2009 : 07:05:57
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| crosby and malkin combined for 213 points this season ,hope that helps you see clearly |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2009 : 12:28:43
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WAIT!!! 5% of voters think he will break the record??
Since when did they legalize mary-j?? :P
"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win" |
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shazariahl
Top Prospect
50 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 16:26:09
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As guest 0112 points out, Crosby and Malkin combined had less points than Gretzky's best season. So no... unless there are DRASTIC rule changes no one will get close to this record ever again.
I do think the 92 in a season is slightly more doable (by slightly I mean we can measure the % as being above 0%). His 163 assists however, is not. Even Gretzky himself never came close to that number again. Lemieux only broke 100 assists once ever. Orr only did it once ever. No one else has ever broken 100 assists (except Gretzky, of course). In fact, only Gretzky and Lemieux have ever broken 160 points, let alone that many assists.
You know, now that I look at it, I think the assist record is even more unbeatable than his points record. Anyone else agree?
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2009 : 22:13:31
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People actually voted yes?
I like Tavares, but get real you guys. If Crosby, Malkin, and Ovy can't even come close, there is no way Tavares will. |
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Guest2651
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Posted - 04/24/2009 : 05:22:12
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| No one mentions that Gretzky had to fight through the era of clutch and grab hockey to get his records.Today if you touch a player or even attempt to grab a player you get a penalty.Hitting is still part of the game,but Gretzky was too smart to get hit and he never put himself in a position to be hit.I could imagine Gretzky getting 300 points with the oilers if they had todays rules. |
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mard65
Top Prospect
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 09:13:37
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| Only if he plays for the mighty Leafs....... |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 17:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2651
No one mentions that Gretzky had to fight through the era of clutch and grab hockey to get his records.Today if you touch a player or even attempt to grab a player you get a penalty.Hitting is still part of the game,but Gretzky was too smart to get hit and he never put himself in a position to be hit.I could imagine Gretzky getting 300 points with the oilers if they had todays rules.
I can only assume you are quite young, so I won't rip you too bad.
Go watch ESPN Classic Sports channel.
In the 1980's the players were smaller, slower, and the goalies routinely let in shots from the blue line, unscreened. A good slap shot from the point got you 30 goals pretty easy. Gretz assisted on a lot of them.
While I love Gretz as much or more than the next guy (he's my #1 of all time), that was not a difficult era to be offensive in. 215 points was masterful, and no one could have gotten more under any circumstances. The hooking held NO ONE back. |
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Guest2899
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Posted - 04/25/2009 : 07:26:53
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| The only way anyone evr breaks that record is if the make the season 150 games.Its hard enough now to score 100 points in a season,never mind 200. |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 07:35:29
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Whatever happend to a simple...NO!
Tavares is good, but not that good. If he does go to the Islanders, he won't reach 100 points this year, maybe even not 90, he'll have no one solid to paly with. Every year in the OHL, he's had at least one or two 100+ point players on the team. Again, good, but never like Wayne...
"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win" |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 11:36:28
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Wow lotta discussion about Wayne not alot about Tavares here. Is he gonna be a great player 50/50 is he gonna be the next great one 1/1000000. I do agree Wayne, Bobbi and Mario set in a class of their own
By the way hockey systems were created by coach's to slow down players like Wayne and Mario. The real reason they are still used today is the NHL has a watered down Player pool, compared to what is had in the late 70's to 92-93. I dont care how fit they are just how talented they are. I would take a healthy Pavel Bure over any player playing today.
If the league retracted to a 24 team league and teams could sign as many stars as they could back then without a cap system. Only thing to stop a talented player like Ovie or Malkin from breaking the records set by Wayne is the systems set up to stop wayne and Mario in the first place. |
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Guest8465
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Posted - 05/02/2009 : 12:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
By the way hockey systems were created by coach's to slow down players like Wayne and Mario. The real reason they are still used today is the NHL has a watered down Player pool, compared to what is had in the late 70's to 92-93. I dont care how fit they are just how talented they are. I would take a healthy Pavel Bure over any player playing today.
If the league retracted to a 24 team league and teams could sign as many stars as they could back then without a cap system. Only thing to stop a talented player like Ovie or Malkin from breaking the records set by Wayne is the systems set up to stop wayne and Mario in the first place.
Hahahaha You do not have any idea what you are talking about, do you? |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 12:32:40
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| Let me clarify. I do not ever foresee anyone ever breaking the stats of Gretzky, ever. But, if the right player and the right set of rules and the talent behind him was as deep as the Islanders, Oilers and Penguins francises were? It could happen. This topic was could Tavares do it and I said 1 in a million chance. |
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Guest8464
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Posted - 05/02/2009 : 14:39:38
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| I understand what you are saying now and I agree about the systems being an obstacle. However I can not agree that the NHL is watered down today. Maybe you should do some research on where the systems came from in the first place. Oh and back on topic there is no way in hell Tavares breaks Gretzkys records. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 16:22:33
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Lets see if I can get you on board with my watered down point here. NHL has 10 Elite Players 50 top TierA players and 100 TierB players.
600 (20 per team)play in the league right now. Thats 440 roll players and fillers 73.33%. Back that total down by 20% to a 24 team league and 480 players or 66.66% that are roll players or fillers. Your have just as many elite players and top Tier players but they would be more grouped on teams allowing your Elite players more ice to score. Can't send your shutdown-checking line out every shift if line's 1 - 3 are a threat.
One more point to drive it home, I'll agree todays players are better athletes. Probably can play more ice time, run 50 miles a day and bench press a car. The system they are forced to play in because of the thin talent pool means that offensive superstars are now back checkers and can't totally commit offense. Doesn't allow for alot of creative plays.
I've heard of players being punished because they have 1 track mind for offense. Some wont pull the trigger or will sit back out of the offensive zone to prevent an emberassing play that will get them benched. |
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Guest8461
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Posted - 05/03/2009 : 02:56:54
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| I will assume that your numbers are correct. If we do not look at the percentage of superstars on each team, is the talent pool deeper today than in the 70īs? So what would happen if the NHL backed down to 24 teams? The quality of the hockey played would be better but the systems would still be in place. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2009 : 22:32:30
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Very silly topic, sorry.
Irvine |
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2009 : 04:15:06
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Well I obvuiosly say no but in 2 or 3 years time he will matbe be a 90-100 point player.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
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Canuckswillrule
Top Prospect
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2009 : 15:17:34
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So true.quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The league was higher scoring in Gretzky's time, but even if you adjust the numbers, a 200 point season today is out of the question. As a previous poster cited, under the rules and structure of the game today, I don't think it's possible. Even a Gretzky or a Lemieux in their prime wouldn't get a 200 point season today.
Without going into a ton of specifics,the NHL through the 80's averaged about 7.5 goals per game.(in Gretzky's prime). In 07/08, it was around 6. So, consider that today's scoring is 20% less than it was in the 80's.
That means Gretzky's 215 points in a season would be around 172 points today. Conversly, Ovechkin's 112 points last season would translate into about 135 points back in the 80's. Consider that the year Gretzky had 215, there were 3 other players with 130+ points. Not much different than the players who are tops in the league today.
IF Tavares (or any other player for that matter) was to eclipse the 160 point plateau in today's NHL, it would be unreal. And, if someone was to eclipe the 215 point plateau in today's NHL(which will not happen), it would be similar to a player in the 80's scoring 260 points. Nothing like a 3+ PPG average for a season, hey!!
Simply put, never going to happen.
JustinMichalec |
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Deaner
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2010 : 18:24:56
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| what a stupid poll... |
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Guest9023
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Posted - 08/29/2010 : 02:07:05
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| This is a great forum topic because such a dumb ass question got a lot of long and thought out responses... Many bored people at home in front of their computers (yes, me too). Soooooo..... the jokes on us i guess... |
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Guest7924
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Posted - 08/30/2010 : 13:19:50
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I agree...stupid topicand my response is more towards the Lemieux/ Gretz debate
I just finished reading this book on the 1987 Canada Cup and Gretz says it himself. Mario Lemieux is the most talented hockey player he ever played with or against. Gretz is a pretty humble guy so you obviously have to take that comment with a grain of salt, but when Mario was playing the guy rarely practiced and smoked in between periods, had Hodgkins Disease and a herniated disc in his back. Rick Tochett said Mario had to have the trainer tie up his skates before every game because it was to painful to bend over....then he go out there and dominate.
When people talk about greatest ever...it's hard to argue against a guy who has more assists than the next guy has points but a healthy Lemieux would have been incredible.
As for todays game...it would be difficult to compare the two games. Fitness, preperation, goaltending, equipment all these components of the game have drastically changed between the two eras.
FitnessPlayers didn't train the way they do today. Todays athletes are in much better shape...and everyone is in shape. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2010 : 14:59:37
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| what a dumb question ...will tavares ever break gretzkys record ?? There was only 1 Gretzky and maybe never be another Gretzky. No-one ever seen the ice like this guy except for Bobby Orr. All i hear these days is todays game..bs..todays game a defenseman can`t touch a foward and he is in the penalty box, fowards now have free reign to go to the net. People seem to forget that Gretzky / Lemieux / and Orr accomplished all these great feats with a hockey stick either in their guts or up under their arm-pits, while being slashed on their arms...DON``T FORGET THAT !!! not so much to do with the game, these hockey players were the Michael Jordans, Babe Ruths of hockey. Players like this may only come once every 50 years in any sport. |
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Hockeylover
Top Prospect
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2010 : 18:20:22
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SO
Stupid!!!!!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 00:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
what a dumb question ...will tavares ever break gretzkys record ?? There was only 1 Gretzky and maybe never be another Gretzky. No-one ever seen the ice like this guy except for Bobby Orr. All i hear these days is todays game..bs..todays game a defenseman can`t touch a foward and he is in the penalty box, fowards now have free reign to go to the net. People seem to forget that Gretzky / Lemieux / and Orr accomplished all these great feats with a hockey stick either in their guts or up under their arm-pits, while being slashed on their arms...DON``T FORGET THAT !!! not so much to do with the game, these hockey players were the Michael Jordans, Babe Ruths of hockey. Players like this may only come once every 50 years in any sport.
Damn you Duke....we just agree on sumthin'??? |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 02:27:45
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| Tavares ~ Out with conc syndrome............ |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 10/12/2010 02:28:08 |
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Guest7409
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Posted - 10/12/2010 : 06:13:18
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| Which of Gretzky's records are we talking about? The 500 empty net goals? |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 09:22:07
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| wow, is that the best you can do? Is that the extent of your hockey knowledge and contribution to the board? Beans happens to know what he's talking about, unlike your inciteful mind of hockey godliness. Save the crude comments for some other board, they are neither welcome or needed. |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 10/12/2010 09:23:52 |
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Guest3372
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Posted - 10/12/2010 : 11:39:30
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| all the players mentioned are great players to be sure but as great as gretzky was, let's not forgot about the players surrounding the great players - that edmonton team was stacked all around and they were a great team in the couple of years after gretzky got traded and even won another cup and many of the core players that got scattered around the league also picked up another cup afterwards, so gretzky was great but he had a hell of a team to play with |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 12:09:42
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Sigh, again??
Tell me a single Super-Duper star that did not also have talent around them??
Orr?? - Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge
Lemieux?? - Jagr, Coffey, Trottier, Francis
Yzerman?? - Lidstrom, Shanahan, Fedorov
The list goes on and one. I do appreciate that the Oilers were really sick top to bottom, but Gretzky was only playing with 4 other players at the same time, not the whole team. |
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Topic |
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Will Tavares shatter Gretzky's record 
