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Guest2363
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Posted - 06/11/2009 :  16:25:12  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Two of the most competitive player on the ice so lets see who is the best one. Malkin is also good and competitve but these 2 are the most.

Choices:

Crosby
Zetterberg

(Anonymous Vote)

brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
571 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2009 :  16:37:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I said Zetterberg

brentrock2
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Guest2742
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Posted - 06/11/2009 :  16:57:05  Reply with Quote
I WISH YOU GUYS WOULD STOP SAYING THERE IS NO "I" TEAM BUT THERE IS AN "M" AND AN "E"- IT IS GETTING REALLY OLD AND FRANKLY STUPID; AS IT DOESN'T RELATE TO HAVE THE BLOGS ANYWAYS--JIGGER
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hanley6
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Canada
662 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2009 :  18:18:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
out of these two I'd choose Zetterberg... But I'd prefer Ovechkin and Malkin, Thornton, Iginla they are the most competitive players in the NHL today hands down
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2009 :  18:30:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6

out of these two I'd choose Zetterberg... But I'd prefer Ovechkin and Malkin, Thornton, Iginla they are the most competitive players in the NHL today hands down

With Thorton, your refering to November and December right?

Although, Zetterberg is better in his own end, I picked Crosby. He won me over this post season. Maybe not this playoff round, but this post season has been a memorable one.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2009 :  04:23:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree JC - before this year, I would have chosen Zetterberg. I chose Crosby now, he has really impressed me this playoffs.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Matt_Roberts85
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Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2009 :  08:37:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2742

I WISH YOU GUYS WOULD STOP SAYING THERE IS NO "I" TEAM BUT THERE IS AN "M" AND AN "E"- IT IS GETTING REALLY OLD AND FRANKLY STUPID; AS IT DOESN'T RELATE TO HAVE THE BLOGS ANYWAYS--JIGGER



dude.... its just my profile signature...

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Gusteroni
Rookie



Canada
225 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2009 :  14:09:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Both excellent players. Zetterberg is great at both ends of the rink and has shadowed Crosby really well this series. I however have to give it to Crosby. When it comes to leadership, offense, and all around great hockey player it's gotta go to him. I also took into consideration what they will be like in 5 years and I think Crosby has more of a future to be one of the Greats.

"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season."

Edited by - Gusteroni on 06/12/2009 14:10:25
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PhillyFan12
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Canada
399 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2009 :  18:32:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Zetterberg
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fly4apuckguy
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Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  00:00:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of you actually picked Zetterberg over Crosby?

What does the kid have to do to win you haters over already?

Good god. If there was one GM in the NHL that would choose Zetterberg over Crosby, he'd be fired and pistol-whipped on the spot.

Zetterberg is good, but not that good. He's a second tier player at best.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  05:46:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy

Some of you actually picked Zetterberg over Crosby?

What does the kid have to do to win you haters over already?

Good god. If there was one GM in the NHL that would choose Zetterberg over Crosby, he'd be fired and pistol-whipped on the spot.

Zetterberg is good, but not that good. He's a second tier player at best.




Umm, as much as I agree that I would take Crosby over Zetterberg, I am a little surprised by the Zetterberg is 2nd tier comment. The guy has been a PPG player for the past 4 season, none of which he had less than 30 goals. Even more so, they guy is +98 in the past 4 season. I'm also liking his 36 goals and 35 assists for 71 points and his +28 in the past 4 playoff years (69 games).

Zetterberg is not Crosby. However, if he is a 2nd tier player, there must only be about 6 guys in the first tier. His name belongs with the elite in the league. Not sure what else a guy has to do to be an elite, top tier player if being a PPG guy in the regular season and playoff, and being as good defensively as he is offensively isn't enough.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  08:20:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm almost with you Beans - Zetterberg really should be included in the top group of superstars . . . it really depends how many you include in the top group.

Myself, I'd put Zetterberg in the "slightly below superstar" category that guys like Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are in. He'd be right there with Parise, Getzlaf, and a host of others. Even though their stats might be a bit lower in certain years, I'd still include guys like Kovalchuk, Lecavalier and Iginla in the superstar category - they just have a superior skill set that sets them above the rest.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  08:53:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still put Zetterberg as a superstar. Much like Patrick Marleau, who again is a brilliant player. But, playing 2nd fiddle to Thornton in SJ. With the exception of Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, San Jose, and Detroit,Boston, and Anahiem, Zetterberg would be the #1 centre for any team in the league. (For those who are going to post "Zetterberg is a left wing" he is not. He plays centre but moved to the left to play with Datsuyk.)

There were only 32 players in the NHL this year with an average PPG of .9 or higher (who played more than 50 games). There were 347 skaters who played more than 50 games. So what is the elite?? Would it not be the top 10%??? Above this, only 28 of these players are above 0 in +/-, and only about 1/2 of them have any kind of reasonable PK time.

If you are talking pure offensive talent, I agree, there is an elite class that Zetterberg would be on the bubble of. However, when you consider the complete player, who can play all over the ice in any situation and is still part of the top 10% producing players in the league. Again, what's a guy gotta do to be a superstar???
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Porkchop73
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640 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  10:18:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we have all seen Crosby mature somewhat this year. He is the better player for this comparison. Zetterburg is a great player but head to head you have to take Crosby. When you consider his age and how much pressure he has from the league and the Penguins to be the saviour for both, he has performed like a the superstar he was always supposed to be. Do I think Zetterburg could have handled it the same? I don't know, he has never had the same pressure Crosby has had at anytime during his career and was late bloomer so to speak. Crosby is my pick easily.
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
662 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2009 :  21:20:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

I think we have all seen Crosby mature somewhat this year. He is the better player for this comparison. Zetterburg is a great player but head to head you have to take Crosby. When you consider his age and how much pressure he has from the league and the Penguins to be the saviour for both, he has performed like a the superstar he was always supposed to be. Do I think Zetterburg could have handled it the same? I don't know, he has never had the same pressure Crosby has had at anytime during his career and was late bloomer so to speak. Crosby is my pick easily.




Crosby matured?????? when?????????????
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Porkchop73
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640 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  03:53:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hanley, as a hockey player he went from the captain of a stanley cup final team the year previous, to the captain of a team that early did not even look like it was going to make playoffs, had a significant injury last season and looked like he had not quite shook it off this season. Lets not forget as I mentioned earlier the expectations of every NHL fan and league executive on his shoulders to "revive" the NHL and win the fans over especially in the U.S.. He does act like a buffoon with stupid immature on ice celebrations, he shows respect for the game, its fans, and the players. Yes he still has some maturing to do, but essentially he is still a kid in a mans world. Some would fold like a cheap shirt with what he has to deal with. Anyways I think as a hockey player he definetly learned and matured from last season to this season.
Everyone who wants to call him whiner or crybaby then go ahead, but you would trade places with him in heartbeat and I bet you in no way could be as composed in front of the media and all others every time like he is. Even Gretzky did not have this much attention thrown at him and he is credited with bringing the game to new levels in the U.S..
So matured.... Yes ... when... all season long!!
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hanley6
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Canada
662 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2009 :  04:21:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

Hanley, as a hockey player he went from the captain of a stanley cup final team the year previous, to the captain of a team that early did not even look like it was going to make playoffs, had a significant injury last season and looked like he had not quite shook it off this season. Lets not forget as I mentioned earlier the expectations of every NHL fan and league executive on his shoulders to "revive" the NHL and win the fans over especially in the U.S.. He does act like a buffoon with stupid immature on ice celebrations, he shows respect for the game, its fans, and the players. Yes he still has some maturing to do, but essentially he is still a kid in a mans world. Some would fold like a cheap shirt with what he has to deal with. Anyways I think as a hockey player he definetly learned and matured from last season to this season.
Everyone who wants to call him whiner or crybaby then go ahead, but you would trade places with him in heartbeat and I bet you in no way could be as composed in front of the media and all others every time like he is. Even Gretzky did not have this much attention thrown at him and he is credited with bringing the game to new levels in the U.S..
So matured.... Yes ... when... all season long!!



I was routing for Pittsburgh, I really didn't want to see Detroit win again.... But it wasn't Crosby that got them to the Cup, and it definitely wasn't Crosby that that helped them win the Cup... Crosby played horrible hockey against Detroit, he seemed lazy, head hunting it's like he wasn't trying, Malkin and Talbot had to step it up.

whining and complaining about a hit or something just not going your way is not mature, neither is attacking from behind and cheap shots, head hunting... He's been doing that all year long

Edited by - hanley6 on 06/14/2009 04:23:42
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  06:36:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hanley, you are so wrong.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  07:02:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15



Above this, only 28 of these players are above 0 in +/-, and only about 1/2 of them have any kind of reasonable PK time.




Agree that Zetterberg is a star and that he is a complete player, no problems there. Just thought I'd point out that special teams doesn't count towards plus-minus. Someone brought it up on this site a few months ago. I think that's what you were going at with this comment, apologies if I'm wrong.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  07:55:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never stated that +/- had anything to do with special teams. My statement was two separate pieces. One being the +/-, the other playing on the PK.

2 separate things, not linked together.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  07:55:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex - not sure what you meant by "special teams doesn't count towards +/-", but to clarify:

If a player is on the ice when a goal is scored on the power play - you're correct, no change to the plus/minus, as they had an extra guy. If they are on the ice killing the penalty when a goal is scored against them, also no +/- change.

BUT - if a player is on the ice when a shorthanded goal is scored (they are on the team that scored the sh goal), they get a +1. And in the same situation, if on the ice when a shorthanded goal is scored against you, you get a -1.

So, special teams can affect your +/- . . . probably not significantly, as there aren't many shorthanded goals scored - but for guys like, say, Martin St. Louis who always has a few shorthanded points, it does add a bit to the plus/minus.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2009 :  09:19:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I take Zetterberg, hands down. He IS the better all round player. I know people get all caught up in the flashy stats and whatnot, but this guy is a team player. he does what he needs to do at BOTH ends of the rink to help his team win.

I guess the point I am making is that if he concentrated more offensively, I have no doubt that his offensive numbers go up. Considre that he regularly goes against the other teams top offensive force, and is not only effective in shutting his player down, but STILL puts up a PPG, I think that is nothing short of astounding. The player that can do that is few and far between, and on that alone, he belongs among the elite. To say otherwise is complete and utter lunacy!

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kingwoody2
Top Prospect



72 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  06:04:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Porkchop: You said "Even Gretzky did not have this much attention thrown at him and he is credited with bringing the game to new levels in the U.S.."

You are obviously new to hockey. Or you are 12 years old cause if you think Crosby has more attention paid to him, than Gretzky, you are sorley mistaken. Gretzky WAS THE NHL when he started playing. Wherever he went the media followed. He had the same amount or more pressure placed on his shoulders when he entered the league.

It is a very similiar situation though with Crosby. he is the face of the NHL right now.

And i would choose Crosby, no questions asked. If I had first pick overall of any NHL player I would pick Crosby. Zetterberg would be around the 7th to 10th pick

Edited by - kingwoody2 on 06/16/2009 06:07:51
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  06:18:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kingwoody - I lived through the Gretzky years, and I totally disagree with you.

Granted, Gretzky did garner a crapload of attention - he was breaking all the records, after all, and he was a young Canadian kid on a Canadian team. The media was pretty relentless, for sure.

But sports has twice the media coverage now than in those days . . . just do the research on sports news outlets, how many there were in the late 70s and 80s, and how many there are now . . . you can't compare. And despite the fact that Crosby will probably never break any of gretzky's records, he has to be called the next Gretzky and follow in his extremely long shadow as he progresses in his career.

What was demanded of Gretzky back in the day does compare to what Crosby has to do, and it's a bit different - but I'd say Crosby has way higher expectations and way more pressure.

No one was saying when Wayne was 18 years old "look, here's the next . . ." because there was no comparison to make, not even Gordie Howe who was a different style of player in most aspects.

So no, Porkchop is not new to hockey - in fact, he's an older geezer on this site like myself who actually saw Gretzky play live in his childhood. We are older, and much wiser about hockey, and we know that Crosby is going through a heck of a lot more than even the Great One endured.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  06:39:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Kingwoody - I lived through the Gretzky years, and I totally disagree with you.

Granted, Gretzky did garner a crapload of attention - he was breaking all the records, after all, and he was a young Canadian kid on a Canadian team. The media was pretty relentless, for sure.

But sports has twice the media coverage now than in those days . . . just do the research on sports news outlets, how many there were in the late 70s and 80s, and how many there are now . . . you can't compare. And despite the fact that Crosby will probably never break any of gretzky's records, he has to be called the next Gretzky and follow in his extremely long shadow as he progresses in his career.

What was demanded of Gretzky back in the day does compare to what Crosby has to do, and it's a bit different - but I'd say Crosby has way higher expectations and way more pressure.

No one was saying when Wayne was 18 years old "look, here's the next . . ." because there was no comparison to make, not even Gordie Howe who was a different style of player in most aspects.

So no, Porkchop is not new to hockey - in fact, he's an older geezer on this site like myself who actually saw Gretzky play live in his childhood. We are older, and much wiser about hockey, and we know that Crosby is going through a heck of a lot more than even the Great One endured.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug




Gretzky fly under the national spotlight surprisingly long. Here in Edmonton, he couldn't walk down the street for a paper without getting mobbed, but unless the Oilers were on HNIC, the national coverage was pretty average until at least 85. It really didn't start getting really crazy until the trade.

Slozo is right (as hard as that is for me to say!). There is significantly more media coverage today than there was in Gretzky's day. Think about it for a second, TSN wasn't around until 1984. Gretzky was nearly finished his 5th NHL season before there was a single national sports channel. There are how many today??? Today, there is a channel specifically dedicated to hockey alone! This doesn't include the local coverage, print, radio, and specifically internet.

In Gretzky's day, you were lucky to see 20 televised Oiler games a season. Today, there are nearly 100 games a week!! Every game in the NHL is available on some kind of format.

Crosby's media attention is exponentially more that Gretzky's. I think Slozo's twice the media coverage is a huge understatement.
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Guest9656
( )

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  08:52:16  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

Zetterburg is a great player but head to head you have to take Crosby.


If the playoffs were any indication, then head-to-head you would take Zetterburg. Crosby was not able to do much of anything when playing against Z. However, not only did Z shut crosby down, he still managed to put up some points. I don't think I saw crosby play any kind of defense...Tthe easy answer is Zetterburg.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  16:42:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kingwoody2

Hey Porkchop: You said "Even Gretzky did not have this much attention thrown at him and he is credited with bringing the game to new levels in the U.S.."

You are obviously new to hockey. Or you are 12 years old cause if you think Crosby has more attention paid to him, than Gretzky, you are sorley mistaken. Gretzky WAS THE NHL when he started playing. Wherever he went the media followed. He had the same amount or more pressure placed on his shoulders when he entered the league.

It is a very similiar situation though with Crosby. he is the face of the NHL right now.

And i would choose Crosby, no questions asked. If I had first pick overall of any NHL player I would pick Crosby. Zetterberg would be around the 7th to 10th pick



My fellow member you are wrong about a couple things. I am not new to hockey, in fact played hockey from the age of 3 and suffered a career ending knee injury while at my first junior camp. Secondly I am not 12 years old. The first NHL game I went to featured a team with Darryl Sittler as the captain playing a team who had a young goaltender in net by the name of Ken Dryden. I was 5 years old. I not only grew up in the Gretzky era, like most young kids Gretzky was my idol.
Like other members have already posted, Gretzky was indeed under constant media attention and in Edmonton and most other Canadian cities he was not even able to walk down the streets. What I mean't is that the scrutiny and media attention is at least ten times what it was back then. More media outlets increased and TV coverage of the new younger playser begin now when the players are in junior. Crosby has been under the media spotlight since he was 15 years old. Every game, every goal. Although in his time Gretzky recieved the most attention, it still does not compare to what Crosby gets today.

I also would not say that Zetterburg out played Crosby in the finals. It was good matchup in which Zetterburg did what he was supposed to, shut down Crosby. Unfortunately I think it may have hurt Detroit as it allowed Malkin to play against less skilled players and I personally think that may have made the difference. Crosby still had an impact in the series, in my opinion.
Overall I still take Crosby, take nothing away from Zetterburg, I just think Crosby is the better player.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  19:05:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9656

quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

Zetterburg is a great player but head to head you have to take Crosby.


If the playoffs were any indication, then head-to-head you would take Zetterburg. Crosby was not able to do much of anything when playing against Z. However, not only did Z shut crosby down, he still managed to put up some points. I don't think I saw crosby play any kind of defense...Tthe easy answer is Zetterburg.

I'm getting tired of reading this Zetterberg shutdown Crosby stuff. You are aware that Crosby faced who many consider to be the 5th best defenceman of ALL TIME every single shift? Detroit concentrated on shutting Crosby down. Crosby accepted this and did what he needed to do to help his team win. He took all the attention and allowed Malkin to produce points against second and third lines and pairings. Even with all of Detroits focus on stopping Crosby he was continually producing chances. If you think any of what I just said is untrue you weren't watching the series or you didn't know what you were watching.

As for the poll, Crosby. That's with all due respect to Zetterberg who happens to be one of my favourites. I love the way he plays the game.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Guest0829
( )

Posted - 06/16/2009 :  19:37:04  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I'm getting tired of reading this Zetterberg shutdown Crosby stuff. You are aware that Crosby faced who many consider to be the 5th best defenceman of ALL TIME every single shift?

Wow. I'm lost for words. Sorry but hijacking this thread for a post. Willus, I'm so surprised that you would rank Lidstrom so high especially since he is not a physical player. Personnally I would put Lidstrom higher than 5 all time I'd say 2nd or 3rd, but for you to say 5th is a big step forward. Consider the 2009 playoffs, he is 39 yrs old, just came back from surgery on the boys and almost ties the game 7 and helped shut down an offensive juggernaut.

Back on topic - Cros.

The boy matured. Battled through a lot of crap on the ice. Remember that Maltby slash? Likely a MCL injury. Sits on the bench to cheer his team on when he could only play a single shift in the 3rd.

Zetterberg top 5 player in the league today. If there was a draft of the entire league, Z would be gone by the 5th pick. The order would be Ovie/Cros/Malkin as top 3. Datsyuk/Zetterberg at 4 or 5. I know what you are saying, what about Iggy? Due to age and lack of a long term contract, he goes a little later in the 6-8 slot with Vinny and Getzlaf.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2009 :  20:30:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0829

quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I'm getting tired of reading this Zetterberg shutdown Crosby stuff. You are aware that Crosby faced who many consider to be the 5th best defenceman of ALL TIME every single shift?

Wow. I'm lost for words. Sorry but hijacking this thread for a post. Willus, I'm so surprised that you would rank Lidstrom so high especially since he is not a physical player. Personnally I would put Lidstrom higher than 5 all time I'd say 2nd or 3rd, but for you to say 5th is a big step forward. Consider the 2009 playoffs, he is 39 yrs old, just came back from surgery on the boys and almost ties the game 7 and helped shut down an offensive juggernaut.

Back on topic - Cros.

The boy matured. Battled through a lot of crap on the ice. Remember that Maltby slash? Likely a MCL injury. Sits on the bench to cheer his team on when he could only play a single shift in the 3rd.

Zetterberg top 5 player in the league today. If there was a draft of the entire league, Z would be gone by the 5th pick. The order would be Ovie/Cros/Malkin as top 3. Datsyuk/Zetterberg at 4 or 5. I know what you are saying, what about Iggy? Due to age and lack of a long term contract, he goes a little later in the 6-8 slot with Vinny and Getzlaf.


I didn't say "I" rank him 5th all time. I said "many" do.
2nd or 3rd? You surely must be kidding. Start another thread if you would like to discuss it further though.
Completely agree on your draft order above too except I would have Crosby 1st.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2009 :  21:14:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus, is that you?? So quite for so long??


Regardless of where you rank Lidstrom all time, he is the best out there today. And it's a really great point that it wasn't just Zetterberg against Crosby. It was often Lidstrom (and therefore Rafalski) on the ice as well. That's a tall order. And Crosby did accept this, got his chances where he was, and did more to support Malkin than people realize. If Crosby was taking on the best Detroit had head to head, Malkin didn't have to.

And I didn't hear is this year as much, but last year there were many comparisons between Pitt and the 80's Oilers. This year, I see more of it, specifically in the line ups. If Crosby's line doesn't kill ya, Malkin's will. Much like the Oilers lines with Grezky/Kurri. If they didn't get ya, Mess and Andy would.


I never disagreed that Crosby should not be taken over Zetterberg, but both are superstars. One more versatile. The other more offensively deadly. Pick your poison.
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