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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2009 : 12:24:31
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1st off someone warns me he is gonna sleep with my wife, I beat him down right there. Its a respect thing.
Offering a RFA an offer is certainly not wife swapping. There is not contract its like dating. Your suppose to be exclusive, but without a ring your still shopping. I figure if a team cant get there ducks in a row for salary cap before a player comes off contract you cant be all that serious about him. Again its a respect thing. I really dont agree with compensation 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I think better compensation would be either a 1st/ or a 2nd and a 3rd, not all three
As far as Burke being respected, I think you got a 50/50 shot with other GM's, coaches and Management. He has told to many teams what he thinks of there business without being asked. I mean who does a press conference about a player on another team, offseason when your not playing that team to bash his personality. It was none of his business, he was just being Burke (A lousy, nosey, loud mouth snook) |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 13:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Burke still woulda freaked out at what Lowe did regardless of a warning.
Well, according to his quote, he wouldnt have.
EDIT: dont take the whole wife thing too seriously, i was just using it as an analogy, as poor as it may have been heh...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 09/10/2009 13:16:49 |
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Guest5382
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Posted - 09/10/2009 : 13:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I really dont agree with compensation 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I think better compensation would be either a 1st/ or a 2nd and a 3rd, not all three
You don't really have a choice of what the compensation is if you put an offer sheet to another team's RFA. Compensation is dependent on how much you sign the RFA for. If you only want to give up a 1st rounder then I think the salary range is the $2-3M range (not exactly sure, you may want to look that up somewhere else).
The only way to circumvent the compensation is to make a trade. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 14:46:02
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| I know the rule is 1st, 2nd and 3rd i was saying its too much compensation if a GM is gonna make a player stew for a summer unsigned. Dont know why a team hasn't offered a trade for his rights to avoid compensation, cause we know Boston cant afford this guy. I dont care what moves they could make, on paper this is already a great team headed for the playoffs. Kessel helps but is no make it or break it player. |
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Guest0921
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Posted - 09/13/2009 : 11:31:59
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| A couple of media outlets has been reporting that the leafs have offered 2 1st rounders and a 2nd? Not sure if there is anything else included in the deal. But is he worth 2 1sts? I would hate to not have a 1st round pick AGAIN for 3 years. |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 11:52:14
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| ya i no wut ur saying guest 0921. you always want to have 1st round draft picks. the only thing is that this years draft is suppsed to be very low in talent. not saying that there arent good young players out their, but except for the first couple picks, there isnt many players that will actually play in the nhl for at least 2-3 years.so in my mind unless the leafs are planning to be a bottom 5 team in the league, i say kessel is worth the trade. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 07:02:20
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If burke gives 2 1sts i will be extremley pissed off
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 07:25:28
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Burke will not give up two first rounders, no matter how weak the draft might be perceived to be. I just don't see that.
I see a D-man like White (cheap) and a pick or two. In the past, Burke has overpaid for players coming from division rivals or who he really, really likes - but not too much, and I don't see him overpaying here. We must remember, that Burke was prepared to give Kaberle for Kessel straight up; so, you'd be looking at an offer that is very similar in value to that.
Nashville is reportedly also in the running for Kessel, who is assuredly not playing for Boston this season. We'll see what happens of course, but my money is on a trade instead of an offer sheet, as I really don't see any teams paying for Kessel with a 1st, 2nd or 3rd any more. I have changed my mind a bit about the whole thing . . . I'd still want Kessel, don't get me wrong; but, I really don't want to give up a 1st rounder if avoidable.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 13:17:15
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well it would be nice to keep all of our 1st rounders heading forward, but on Leafs Lunch today Darren Dregar said that Burke has offered MORE than a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd..... im scared...
Mind you, Kessel had a 36 goal season as 21 year old. Assuming his shoulder is going to be ok, the sky is the limit for this kid. He could end up better than that 1st, 2nd and 3rd combined. this is a tough call
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest2798
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Posted - 09/14/2009 : 14:18:54
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Look at this from Chiarelli's point of view. If he does nothing and someone else signs Kessel he is automatically going to get at least a first round pick, maybe a second and third. Thats way better than a depth defencemen or forward. He is kind of trapped in that he can't take on any salary in a trade.
I know he wants to keep him but i guess thats up to Kessel now. I guess thats the price you pay when so many of your draft picks actually pan out. Anyway whoever signs him is getting a great young player. Would deffinately like to see him in shark uniform if and when he leaves. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 14:36:13
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| Piere Maguire was on the radio this morning saying the Leafs look to be the team which will get Kessel in the end. However, he said possibly for 2 first rounders? I just can't see that. If Burke could sign him for a 1st/2nd/3rd pick, wouldn't you go that route rather than trade for two first rounders? What am i missing? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 15:03:00
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When an RFA gets signed to an offer sheet to another team, the compensation is based on the value(per year) of the contract the players signs. It has nothing to do with what Burke would like to not like to give up. Well, indirectly he can control that based on how much the contract will be worth(if it actually happens). Here is the breakdown:
Amount
Compensation Due
$863,156 or less
None
$863,156 - $1,307,812
3rd round pick
$1,307,812 - $2,615,625
2nd round pick
$2,615,623 - $3,923,437
1st and 3rd round pick
$3,923,437 - $5,231,249
1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
$5,231,249 - $6,539,062
Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
$6,539,062 or more
Four 1st round picks
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Guest6006
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Posted - 09/14/2009 : 17:49:06
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
That's right 9838, that's what I was doing . . . I was saying that Phil Kessel was just as good as Iginla and Malkin. 
Oh wait . . . no, I just said that he scored 36 goals, one more than those guys, and in 12 less games no less. THIS IS FACT. Clearly, at least at this point, Iginla and Malkin are on a different playing level (see: a higher one!) than young Kessel . . . but the potential is there, and, I can't underline enough how difficult it is to score more than 35 goals in this league right now.
In terms of market price, what Kessel is asking for is about right, when you examine other scorers, and take into consideration age, skill level, and projected improvement on young totals.
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED) They did a comparison over the last 20 years of players traded for two first rounders almost all will or are in the hall of fame do you think kessels will join the group or is in that group.And most of the above where in their prime no guessing on potential. And I know one of the first rounders turned out to be patrick Roy. Besides remmeber toronto traded for tom kurvers a ist round (scott niedermayer) and have had a history of trading draft picks (how has that worked out)Burke is a blowhard ask anyone involved in hockey that isnt working for him and even some that are. When you are as outspoken as him and as in love at the sound of his own voice as he is he is bound to trip himself up.(but he is a lawyer and can argue himself out of it. And if he wasnt planning on or giving the impression of an offer sheet why get his second rd pick back for a second and third. It is a matter of opiion of kessels worth but I dont beleive he is worth two first rounders and a second rounder which boston is asking. Or even Ist round(potential lottery pick)oh yeah leafs are making playoffs so 15 pick 45 pick and 60th or say 3, 33rd,63rd, or possibly 2 luke schenns Even in a bad draft ist rounders manage to emerge |
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Guest6006
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Posted - 09/14/2009 : 18:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Mr. Roberts, at the time Vanek signed the offer sheet to Edmonton he was coming off of a season of 43 goals, 43 assists, and less then 17 minutes of ice a game. The fact that he has proven his production in the past three years is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that today or then, a 40 goal-80 point player in the NHL has an approximate value of $7 million a season. Some are a little more others a little less. However, that figure is not insanely overpaying. Regardless of the increase over the previous contract. That's what the contract was and it was fair at the time for everyone except Lowe?? That's the part that drives me crazy. If it was Vanek resigning with Buffalo for that money, no one says anything. But it's an RFA offer sheet so that makes it garbage.
And Slozo, I will find the quotes from Burke from a few year back where he argues that the RFA's. And, as I have always said, Burke had the entire season and playoffs to sign Penner. As did Regher in Buffalo. The fact of the matter is that they were both gambling with their players and expecting to sign them for less. They lost. Burke was the loser in the deal and that is what makes him upset. He said nothing about teh Vanek thing until he lost Penner. Then, all of a sudden Lowe is a bag of crap.
It's typical, arrogant Brian Burke. The world revolves around him and only him and what's ok for him is not ok for others. Or the exact same situation is different when he is involved. Obviously, there were other offensive talents that were available in this years UFA crop and TO got none of them. So, now Burke either has to trade or Offer Sheet. Oh, but's it's different because he's doing it publicly??? Nothing in the rules says one team chasing a player has to talk to the team. They talk to the agent. And don't kid yourself, Burke would stab any GM in the back to get a player he wanted.
I hate to say but i agree with beans. If i could add one thing burke talking to boston is on the verge of collusion. And the differece between kessel vs vanek is boston doesnt have cap room buffalo did (to spell it out he had to offer more for vanex otherwise buffalo just matches and they did so obviously they didnt think it was out of whack). Burke could have matched penner (as far as i know but chose not to his choice) and Lowe wanted to add to a team that recently was in the finals by not losing roster players. Burke doesnt care about the league he just cares about his team. (or his Image) The leafs arent one player away they are a dozen away |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 01:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6006
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
That's right 9838, that's what I was doing . . . I was saying that Phil Kessel was just as good as Iginla and Malkin.
Oh wait . . . no, I just said that he scored 36 goals, one more than those guys, and in 12 less games no less. THIS IS FACT. Clearly, at least at this point, Iginla and Malkin are on a different playing level (see: a higher one!) than young Kessel . . . but the potential is there, and, I can't underline enough how difficult it is to score more than 35 goals in this league right now.
In terms of market price, what Kessel is asking for is about right, when you examine other scorers, and take into consideration age, skill level, and projected improvement on young totals.
The kind of thinking YOU are employing is one of illiteracy among hockey commenters.
Two minutes for trolling!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
thats hilarious illiteracy and commenters in same sentence(commentaters). You put the comparison out about Ignlia, Malkin (and it is idiotic) not the guest. They did a comparison over the last 20 years of players traded for two first rounders almost all will or are in the hall of fame do you think kessels will join the group or is in that group.And most of the above where in their prime no guessing on potential. And I know one of the first rounders turned out to be patrick Roy. Besides remmeber toronto traded for tom kurvers a ist round (scott niedermayer) and have had a history of trading draft picks (how has that worked out)Burke is a blowhard ask anyone involved in hockey that isnt working for him and even some that are. When you are as outspoken as him and as in love at the sound of his own voice as he is he is bound to trip himself up.(but he is a lawyer and can argue himself out of it. And if he wasnt planning on or giving the impression of an offer sheet why get his second rd pick back for a second and third. It is a matter of opiion of kessels worth but I dont beleive he is worth two first rounders and a second rounder which boston is asking. Or even Ist round(potential lottery pick)oh yeah leafs are making playoffs so 15 pick 45 pick and 60th or say 3, 33rd,63rd, or possibly 2 luke schenns Even in a bad draft ist rounders manage to emerge
Hey guest 6006.... First off, i think Slozo was meaning to say "commenter", not "commentator" (BTW, you mispelled it, ironic huh?  ). You and i are examples of "hockey commenters". That would mean, "one who comments on hockey", no? (ADMIN EDIT - PERSONAL ATTACK - CONTENT REMOVED) |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 07:24:19
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Folks, drop the personal attacks and keep it on topic. It's should be about the opinion, not about the person making the opinion.
And spell checking and grammer go a long way. This is not a text message so don't use short form and a little capitalization and maybe a period or two here and there goes a long way.
That's not for anyone specifically, it's for everyone. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 08:17:41
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Guest 6006,
commenter(noun): one who makes comments or criticisms
A perfectly viable word, found in the English dictionary, if one would only take the time to look into it.
commentator(noun): 1. a person who discusses news, sports events, weather, or the like, as on television or radio.
2. a person who makes commentaries.
Also a perfectly viable word, but not the one I used, because it has a different meaning, you see? (ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PERSONAL ATTACK)
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PERSONAL ATTACK)
1. Stating that Kessel scored more than Iginla and Malkin one year only illustrates how difficult it is to score more than 35 goals these days in the NHL, especially if you actually read what I wrote in context.
2. I never said that I thought Kessel was worth two first rounders, so you are arguing with yourself on that point.
3. Based on samples in the 1990's, first round draft picks have a just over 60% chance of being a "career player" in the NHL (over 200 games played). That means they 'make it' as a player, but it certainly doesn't mean they ever score more than 35 goals, ever. The percentage would drop even further if the first round draft pick isn't in the top five players selected.
I prefer one bird in the hand, (ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PERSONAL ATTACK)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 09/15/2009 08:21:03 |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/18/2009 : 18:33:29
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| no worries Kessel will never score more than 30 goals in a leaf uniform and if he does the leafs will be last in the standings so it won't matter anyway. |
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Guest4092
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Posted - 09/27/2009 : 18:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Guest 6006,
commenter(noun): one who makes comments or criticisms
A perfectly viable word, found in the English dictionary, if one would only take the time to look into it.
Commenters isnt a word. You should check websters or the oxford dictionary it is slang (ADMIN EDIT CONTENT REMOVED) |
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Chalky17
Top Prospect
Canada
2 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 08:37:34
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| I think that if Burke was a smart as he claims to be, he should have just gone after Cammallerri on July 1st, pay him Kessel money and keep your draft picks. To me, they are the same player except Cammallerri got his goals without an true no#1 center. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 08:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chalky17
I think that if Burke was a smart as he claims to be, he should have just gone after Cammallerri on July 1st, pay him Kessel money and keep your draft picks. To me, they are the same player except Cammallerri got his goals without an true no#1 center.
Burke did go after Cammalerri, but he signed in Montreal...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 10:56:39
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quote:
Commenters isnt a word. You should check websters or the oxford dictionary it is slang
Well, it is in www.dictionary.com fella, and it's close enough to an accepted word that it certainly doesn't warrant correcting. Especially when one writes without capitalisation and punctuation while misspelling many words . . . have gone too far, btw.
Back to Kessel: he will have a tough time to score 30 or more goals this year, if he comes back from injury early even, it'll be around 15 to 20 games, and he'll be joining a new team and playing with less talented linemates. But maybe his learning curve still goes upward and he actually gets close to reaching last year's numbers again? If so, he's the real deal and we have a keeper, but more than likely, we are looking at 25-30 goals in about 60-65 games, and hopefully closer to 40 the year afterward.
If Kessel performs as I predict, I think I am ok with the draft picks, providing Toronto finishes where I think they will and the drafted players don't turn into superstars.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest8933
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Posted - 10/06/2009 : 17:29:07
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
[quote]Commenters isnt a word. You should check websters or the oxford dictionary it is slang I mentioned it as funny alex not a criticism of his literacy both you and slozo have went to far
Well, it is in www.dictionary.com fella, and it's close enough to an accepted word that it certainly doesn't warrant correcting. Especially when one writes without capitalisation and punctuation while misspelling many words . . . have gone too far, btw.
Back to Kessel: he will have a tough time to score 30 or more goals this year, if he comes back from injury early even, it'll be around 15 to 20 games, and he'll be joining a new team and playing with less talented linemates. But maybe his learning curve still goes upward and he actually gets close to reaching last year's numbers again? If so, he's the real deal and we have a keeper, but more than likely, we are looking at 25-30 goals in about 60-65 games, and hopefully closer to 40 the year afterward.
If Kessel performs as I predict, I think I am ok with the draft picks, providing Toronto finishes where I think they will and the drafted players don't turn into superstars.
CAPITALIZATION..........................NOW LOOK UP HILARIOUS. Sorry I hit a nerve Slozo I've said nothing personal about you. I only pointed out that I thought commenters and illiteracy in the same sentence was hilarious. I wasn't trying to infer anything aside from my original comment. Everyone who posts has spelling and grammer mistakes. I expected my post to get ripped but didnt have time to properly proofread it. That in itself,(I find the fact I didn't proofread my post) I find HILARIOUS. (ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PERSONAL ATTACK) |
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Guest0972
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Posted - 10/06/2009 : 19:02:17
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| Back to Burke and Kessel... 3 games in and 0 wins. It's early but this team does not look like a playoff team on the ice (and that's not even for a lack of effort). I don't think it's fair to judge yet, but if things keep going badly those two first rounders are going to be nice little presents for Boston. |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2341 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 10:17:06
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SLOZO, GUEST and ALEX.
DROP THIS TRIVIAL BICKERING AND GET BACK ON TOPIC! This arguing is ruining the discussion for everyone! Yes, this is a hockey web site not a spelling bee, but we do ask everyone to show respect to others and build your own credibility by posting in reasonably edited English with reasonably edited content/information. We're not asking for perfection, just try to make some sense of your posts, that is all.
DROP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS OR THE POSTS WILL BE REMOVED ENTIRELY!
I invite EVERYONE to refresh themselves of the posting guidelines: http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160
Any further discussion on this matter can be sent to admin (at) PickupHockey.com. Any posts about this will be removed. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 11:35:57
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Well, we're only one point behind Boston for a playoff spot 
Seriously, it's the first three games. Detroit is 0-2, Vancouver is 0-3, but no one will argue much about whether the Leafs finish above both of those teams, or whether the Wings or Canucks will make the playoffs.
The Leafs just have to do a slightly better job of capitalising on their scoring chances, and tightening up their new defence.
Not that I'm not anxious for Kessel to join the team, though - because I am. The Leafs need some more valid scoring threats, other than a Stajan or Grabovsky . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 10/07/2009 11:37:23 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 17:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0972
I don't think it's fair to judge yet, but if things keep going badly those two first rounders are going to be nice little presents for Boston.
Even though this Boston fan certainly understands the arguments about Kessel's potential and will miss his speed, etc..., overall, I think Chiarelli did what he could in the circumstances (the last three words being the key to the point). Rightly or wrongly, Kessel was viewed by the B's management brass as a guy with a bit of a head problem (I suspect there are more stories there than we know). Rightly or wrongly, they felt it was too much money given the team's money situation. And most importantly, weak draft or not, two first rounders is ALWAYS an excellent return. Look at it this way, any player who gets traded for two first rounders in his career has to, at the very least go on to be a a legitimate "star" in the league. So the pressure is all on Kessel and the Leafs.
Looking at ancient history for a reference, Kessel needs to reach the level of my guy from the history thread (who was also viewed as a bit of headcase coincidentally), Rick Middleton. The big difference and the key point here is that a young but somewhat flakey at the time Rick Middleton was traded for Ken Hodge, an aging star who was at the end of his career and hardly produced anything after that. Kessel might indeed turn into a "star" a la Middleton. But on Boston's side there is potential, even if he does, for the Bs to have a solid return for that star. And if Phil doesn't turn out to be a star, it's either a steal for the Bs (one or both of the draft picks pan out), or, at the very worst, it's a wash (neither of the draft picks pan out).
Very good work by Chiarelli! |
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Burke and Kessel? 
