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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2006 :  20:21:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Who Is The greatest hockey player ever?

Patrick Frame

Choices:

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Guy Lafleur
Mark Messier
Maurice Richard
Mario Lemeuix
Other

(Anonymous Vote)

bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2006 :  20:49:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is an impossible question to answer. It's comparing apples to oranges. Regardless, I answered Mario Lemieux, he was my favorite player to watch.

Although I am surprised Iginla, Smyth and the Sedins aren't on this list

Edited by - bablaboushka on 11/17/2006 21:15:12
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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2006 :  20:53:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
well i dont like calgary sand edmonton so there should not be a surprise

Go pens
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Guest2661
( )

Posted - 11/18/2006 :  04:01:28  Reply with Quote
go find any video on all players, there was nobody as slow or awkward as gretzky in any era. They say he was well protected watch his tapes and see how many tried to hit him and you will see why he was the best ever. nobody could read the ice or players better then him. eyes in the back of his head and hands of all the hockey gods combined makes him the best ever!
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2006 :  07:28:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky..duh
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Guest8977
( )

Posted - 11/18/2006 :  12:46:14  Reply with Quote
Gretzky, hands down, if you argue, get a life.
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Trevman12
Rookie



Canada
182 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2006 :  16:23:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who wouldn't vote for gretzky?
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Guest8977
( )

Posted - 11/19/2006 :  12:34:10  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Trevman12

Who wouldn't vote for gretzky?


apparently a few people voted Orr Lemiux and Howe *cough* no hockey knowledge.
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2006 :  13:33:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well it all depends how you define "greatest". Does it mean skill set? Does it mean stats? Does it mean success? There is no way to compare a Maurice Richard to a Mario Lemieux... Different styles of hockey = different standards/meanings of greatness.

As for Gretzky, there's no question that he is in a league of his own statistically. He is without a doubt the smartest hockey player that has ever played. That is what separates the great from the legendary. Smarts can't be taught but skills can. Skill-wise, I can honestly say Gretzky was not the best. He was not the most fluid skater, he did not have the hardest shot and he didn't deliver the hardest hits.

I voted for Lemieux under the mindset of "What could have been..." Had Lemieux played a full, healthy career like Gretzky, I think he would have been second in all statistical categories that Gretzky leads (if he isn't already) and there wouldn't be such a gap between their totals. Skill-wise, I believe Mario Lemieux was often better.
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Guest4959
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Posted - 11/19/2006 :  14:42:28  Reply with Quote
The question is who is the best player of all time... Not who Might have been the greatest so you gotta go with the great one!!!
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Guest8977
( )

Posted - 11/19/2006 :  15:49:06  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4959

The question is who is the best player of all time... Not who Might have been the greatest so you gotta go with the great one!!!


True lol
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ultimatetitman
Rookie



Canada
244 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2006 :  21:25:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky... easy.

Lemieux and Orr both, argueably, had more skill than The Great One, but let's face it, records are records and results are results.

He's The Greatest of all time... but if you ask him, he'd pick Howe.
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lyall
PickupHockey Pro



360 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2006 :  14:46:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why is there 1 defenceman? Should have a new poll for that.
I didn't vote for Gretzky cause his carrer after he stopped playing hockey is an embarassment to the game. I aslo agree that you can't compare Richard with Gretzky. And where is Joe Malone?
I voted Messier. 6 cups. Only person to captain to teams to the cup. Leaderhip on and off the ice. But that was a rushed decisons. I wanna change my vote to Howe.
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lyall
PickupHockey Pro



360 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2006 :  14:47:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And no Yzerman or Sakic?
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Guest9811
( )

Posted - 11/21/2006 :  10:41:08  Reply with Quote
I think the results of this poll would be a lot different if Bobby Orr was not plagued with injuries that forced him to retire, just look at his numbers and then remember that he was a DEFENSEMAN, hard to say he was not the most talented hockey player the NHL has seen.
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Guest5122
( )

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  09:01:25  Reply with Quote
The greatest hockey player is the only professional athlete in any sport to have led his league in offensive totals for 20 consecutive seasons and that is Gordie Howe. Gretzky was done after his 13th season (average only 18 goals per season after that) and Orr only played 9 seasons. Those that know hockey and its history (including Gretzky) know Howe was the greatest. Not only was he the most durable player he dominated his opponents more so than any other player. His 49 goals in the 1952-53 season was more dominant than Gretzky's 92 goals in the 1981-82 season.
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Guest5122
( )

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  09:15:21  Reply with Quote
Ooops. Should not have said "led his league" and should have said "was in the top 5"
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goon
Rookie



Canada
113 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  09:29:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it is pretty unfair to say that Gretzky was done after his 13th season when he still managed to score 1.22 ppg. I am not sure how you can say Howe's 49 goals was more dominant than Gretzky's 92? Considering Wyne scored his 50th that year in his 39th game. I never saw Howe play so I don't want to disagree with your opinion but give Gretzky some credit.
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Guest5122
( )

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  15:52:23  Reply with Quote
I apoligize and agree that Gretzky was not done after his 13th year but he certainly did not dominate the game much after that (he only finished in the top 10 point getters 3 times in his last 8 years and did not make the top 10 in goal scoring in any of his last 11 seasons). Gretzky's statistics are a refelction of the over inflated number of goals scored during the 1980's. Howe's 49 goals were more dominate because the next closest player had only 32 goals and there were only 8 other guys who scored more than 19. On the other hand when Gretzky got 92 there were guys who got 64 and 60 goals and lots with 50 and 40 plus goal seasons. The only way compare players of different eras is to compare how proportinately dominate they were over players of their own era. Take a look at the statistics and Howe's dominance over an extended career clearly make him the greatest ever.
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goon
Rookie



Canada
113 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  15:59:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5122

I apoligize and agree that Gretzky was not done after his 13th year but he certainly did not dominate the game much after that (he only finished in the top 10 point getters 3 times in his last 8 years and did not make the top 10 in goal scoring in any of his last 11 seasons). Gretzky's statistics are a refelction of the over inflated number of goals scored during the 1980's. Howe's 49 goals were more dominate because the next closest player had only 32 goals and there were only 8 other guys who scored more than 19. On the other hand when Gretzky got 92 there were guys who got 64 and 60 goals and lots with 50 and 40 plus goal seasons. The only way compare players of different eras is to compare how proportinately dominate they were over players of their own era. Take a look at the statistics and Howe's dominance over an extended career clearly make him the greatest ever.



No need to apologize. I guess you have a point. In '82 when Gretzky scored 92, some guy named Dennis Maruk scored 60. I have never heard of him before so yes I agree that there were alot more goals scored in the 80's.
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Guest9679
( )

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  17:53:33  Reply with Quote
Gretzky is the best ever bar none... in his later years he may not have scored profusely but he made everyone around him great...just check for the goal totals for his linemates in LA and NY...just as Cheechoo scored last year because of Thornton, everyone who played with Gretzky scored large every year...Orr did everything by himself with tremendous injuries and I believe he was the most special player to ever play the game because of the accomplishments from his position...Lemieux is the best offensive puck handler I ever saw play the game and obviously runs in step with Orr for facing health issues and still being great...Howe dominated opposing players without equal in a time when every player in the NHL would have played for free...Richard fought harder than anyone that ever played the game and was the best player on an outstanding team...Guy Lafleur??? come on...and you don't include Marcel Dionne...sorry Guy but not on my list...Messier...best leader ever but not best player...I have no more arguments about the past but would like to think that the best is always yet to come
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Guest2152
( )

Posted - 11/23/2006 :  19:15:28  Reply with Quote
Lemieux hahaha -- The question wasn't, "If he didn't get hurt and had have played a full career would Lemieux have been the greatest player ever",,,,while we're speculating on what could have been,,,,,maybe you can give me last weeks lotto numbers too.


Gretzky, hands down the greatest ever.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2006 :  13:20:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How can anyone argue Gretzky?? Really, even with the arguement that there were a significantly higher amount of goals in the 80's, he was still head and shoulders above everyone else on the ice. He was definately not the most skilled skater or stick handler, and did not have a hard shot, and was not a physical presence on the ice. That makes his feats even more impressive. Orr was easily the best skater in the league when he played and had a great shot. Lemieux is the best stick handler that ever played. Howe had a physical presence few could handle. Gretzky had none of that and had significantly more points, goals, assists, and a better points per game than all of them. Gretzkey also made the players around him so much better. How about the fact that 3 of Gretzky's former line mates are in the top 20 all timepoints(Messier, Coffey, Kurri). Lemeuix has one (Francis). Howe and Orr, I don't see any.

So you can continue to try to argue this, and you have many good points as to who may have been the best at individual skills, but there is absolutely no arguement that The Great One is the best player to ever lace up a pair of skates.
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1601 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2006 :  14:51:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a hockey fan I loved Lafleur, Dionne and Messier but I agree that you can't put them in the same league as Gretzky, Lemieux, Richard or Howe.

The thing about hockey is that it actually balances out historically. For example, players from the eighties scored lots of goals for many reasons including a wide open style, less trap, and because the goalies wore smaller pads. Players in this generation deal with traps, and bigger goalie pads, but have 3x more power play opportunities. It all works out in the end.

I do believe that if Lemieux was able to stay healthy he would be holding a large amount of the NHL records...but he didn't, and staying healthy and having longevity is as much a part of the game as scoring the winning goal. So for that Mario, sadly, is not the greatest.

I'm of the belief that when you own the entire record book, that has to say something. But when you own the entire record book AND no one else comes even close, at any tme in history, that says a lot more. 61 NHL scoring records.

Gretzky - 894 goals, 1963 pro assists, 4 cups, 9 Harts, 10 scoring titles, 4 200+ point seasons, ya that'll work to get my vote.

Edited by - leigh on 11/24/2006 15:16:39
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1601 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2006 :  15:06:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh and The Great One has more assists than anyone else has points.

99 reasons he's the greatest...

http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/gretzky/99reasons.html

Edited by - leigh on 11/24/2006 15:20:19
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Trevman12
Rookie



Canada
182 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  09:47:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky, no doubt about it.
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Guest7559
( )

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  07:32:17  Reply with Quote
It is not fair to compare players of today with players of the past. It is a totally different game. The equipment alone gives todays players an advantage. Sure Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr dominated in their time, but would they have been as successful in todays style of hockey with the same skills they possessed. Its hard to argue that some one that holds or shares 61 NHL records: 40 for the regular season, 15 for the Stanley Cup playoffs and six for the NHL All-Star Game is not the best.. Pretty easy decision I should say. Oh for those of you that still don;t know, of course my pick is #99 hands down.

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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2006 :  21:06:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First of all, how do you define the greatest hockey player? To me it would be a player who dominated every skill set required in hockey. That narrows down the contest considerably. However, if you have been americanized and subscribe to the belief that Hockey is all about hi scoring blowouts because that's entertaining, then there is only one choice for the greatest player award. 99 it is. The stats of course prove that.
Now for what the stats don't show. They don't show what would have happened if Gretzky had to play hockey the way it was meant to be played. Put him in an era before his. Before they changed the rules of the game for him. In an era where if you couldn't defend yourself you just didn't stay around long. Gretzky would have met up with his hero Howe and that would have been the end of him. Next thing you know he would be back in his daddy's backyard rink skating around pylons that don't throw checks or elbows.
Gretzky was absolutely a great passer and playmaker. But understand both of these tasks become infinitely easier when you're not worried about being checked. Every player in the league new that if you actually laid a good hit on Gretzky it would be very possible that it could be the end of your NHL career. Don't blieve it? Look it up. It happened.
Can't wait to read the responses to this. Heheheh.
Now on to the player who actually could do everything.

Bobby Orr is bar none, the greatest player ever. He did everything at the highest skill level.
His shot was as good as the rest of the best.
His passing makes today's player's look sad really.
If you don't think he could read the ice as well as anyone then you never saw him play.
He fought with ferocity. Didn't back down from anyone.
Checked hard.
Had hands second only to Mario's.
Gave 100% every minute of every game.
And the most important skill required, because everything else can be taught, skating. He was without a doubt, the best skater in the league and would be today. It would have been scary to see him in a pair of decent skates, as opposed to the old tube style.

Suspend disbelief for a moment and imagine a team of Gretzky's and a team of Orr's. It's no contest. Hands down, team Orr wins every time.

My logic is irrefutable. If you think otherwise, you are ignorant of hockey's rich history.

I await the impending barrage of ignorance. WooHooooo!!!
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2006 :  21:24:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted Mario for all the reasons you listed for Bobby Orr. I certainly do not disagree with your assessment of Bobby Orr, but because I grew up in the 90's when Lemieux shone and not Orr, he is who I got to greatly admire. Mario dominated in pretty much every skill you mentioned above, not to mention he was a hell of a lot funner to watch than Gretzky.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  15:31:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, this is getting fun now. Here is my rebuttal to your Bobby Orr is the greatest, Gretzky never got hit.

1) Your argument that the game was changed for Gretzky and the fact that he never got hit is a steaming pant load. The sad thing it he played the game exactly how it was designed to be played. Watch any interview with any of the "tough guys" from the 80's and the answer is the same. It wasn't that no one was allowed to hit Gretzky, it was that it was one of the hardest things to do. He could see the game so well that he avoided most of the checks coming his way. If you don't believe that, try watching film of him. And I don't believe that a player would never play again if he hit Gretzky. If it did happen, prove it!

2) Your Bobby Orr comments are very valid. He was very skilled and physically gifted in many ways. The thing that set The Great One apart from all of the rest is that he had literally no physical gifts. He just played the game better than anyone else, ever. No hard shot, no great skating skills, he was not big or fast. So how did have more assists than anyone in history had total points?? Oh ya, your logic says that it because he never got hit?? So it that why he had more goals than anyone in history too??

3) Your logic is not irrefutable, it ridiculous. A team of Orr's and a team of Gretzky's?? Try talking about something that you can actual compare. What is ignorant is not seeing Gretzky for what he was, the greatest player ever.

4) The fact of the matter is that this is purely an opinion and always will be. There is no way to measure one player against another accurately. However, when the best players ever are asked who they think the Greatest of all time is, who it the overwhelming answer?? You got it, Wayne Gretzky.

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ultimatetitman
Rookie



Canada
244 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  16:18:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Truth is, stats are stats and records are records. Gretzky is the greatest player ever.
It is a shame the injuries cut short the careers of Lemieux and Orr, but those are the facts.
Lemieux and Orr may have been more talented that Gretzky - arguably - but they did not do what Gretzky did.
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Guest4110
( )

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  17:26:25  Reply with Quote
BEANS15 said it best... for my opinions read beans15 and those are my opinions too...
if gretzky had played then, if so and so had played then .. then this would of happened etc etc... well they played in the time-frame they played and thats where they had to adapt.. not 20 years ago or 20 years later
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Guest0530
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Posted - 12/08/2006 :  10:11:14  Reply with Quote
Comical. It's always a laugh to read what Gretzky supporters have to say when it comes to this topic. 99% of the Gretzky camp usually go on stats alone and that is more than enough to question any judgement pertaining to Gretzky being the best. That's like saying Michael Jackson is the greatest musician ever because he sold the most records or Barry Bonds is the greatest ball player ever because he has the most home runs and such...asinine.

If there was a category for the greatest "one way" player of all time well, probably have to give that one to Gretzky but if you know anything about hockey at all, it takes a "complete" player to be considered for the greatest of all time and that is by FAR...Bobby Orr.

The bottom line is that Gretzky was not a complete player. Also he could not have accomplished the things that he did without the proper surroundings. It's funny to read some of the other posts regarding Gretzky as "unhittable". What a load of crap. Please...go back and watch the old videos of the THOUSANDS of times that players had Gretzky lined up only to turn away at the last moment. You can't be as slow as Gretzky and not get checked unless, here it is, the "unwritten rule" comes into effect. The Gretzky camp of course will refute here but if you do not believe that there was a "no touch Gretzky" clause in the NHL well then you are pretty damn naive and stupid. If Bobby Orr had a "no touch" clause when he played...his numbers as a defenceman on a cyclic rate (or potential forward for that matter) would have made Gretzky's numbers look sad.

One of the biggest differences that I see is that Orr accomplished what he did because he was Bobby Orr and didn't need anything else to do it. Orr would have been Orr if he had have played for any of the other original six teams regardless of his surroundings. There is absolutely no way that Gretzky would have been able to put up those numbers without the no touch rule, Yari Kurri, Dave Semenko and especially Glen Sather with his corporate influences and such. He just couldn't have done it on his own...in ANY era. This whole thing about comparing players from different eras is crap too. Because of who they are, you drop Orr, Lemieux, Howe in ANY era and they dominate. Gretzky? No way. Put Gretzky in Orr's era or before and he's annihilated because he's a pansy. Put him in today's era and he couldn't even keep up let alone make plays at this speed level. That's the difference. Without Kurri, Semenko, Sather and a host of other variables Gretzky is a nobody. Orr didn't need "variables". He was the best ever because he was a COMPLETE player...which Gretzky never could be.

And again, for the Gretzky people who want to throw stats in people's faces. Go back and look at Orr's point production over his nine "healthy" years as a defenceman and compare them on a cyclic level mathematically to Gretzky's eighteen years of point totals as a forward...I think you'd be surprised by the results.

Orr is the most complete player we will ever see. Bar none. That's what makes him the best. Gretzky could never have acheived that status no matter what.

Why is it that pretty much every major sports writer, coaches, referees old and new when asked who the greatest of all time is they all say Orr. Could all of these people be wrong? Doubtful.

Willus3 touched on a lot a great points and is spot-on on all of them. Good to see someone approach this topic from all angles sensibly.

Oh, and technically Brett Hull has the most goals in a single season as far as I'm concerned. Take away Gretzky's 10-13+ empty netters form his 92 goal year and that put's him a ways behind Hull's 88 goal season...which I believe had no empty netters by the way. Another thing your "Gretzky stats" don't show.

Orr is king.


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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  14:00:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here comes yet another reply from the "Gretzky Camp."

1) I am thinking if you want to compare Orr's first 9 years, then compare them with Gretzky's first 9 years. Gretzky has 1669 points in the regular season,and 272 play-off points in 9 appearances. This includes 4 Cups in a league with more than 12 teams. Orr's numbers do not compare. Not even close. Gretzky had Orr's numbers covered in less than 6 years. And as far as your cyclic level, with Gretzky's first 9 years roled into 18 years, that's 3338 points! C'mon, at least compare apples to apples.

2) Your comments make Gretzky out to be a total bum. You may have some valid points that Gretzky was "protected" while Orr had to fight his own battle, but can you honestly think that he would not have still has the productivity that he had?? As a rookie he has 51 goals and 137 points. No one knew who he was then, and look what he did. By the way, he was 17 years old!!!

3) Complete player is an unfair assessment because hockey is a team game. Gretzky's game suited the teams he played on the same way Orr's play suited the teams he played on. That's why there are different roles on each team. Gretzky fit his role perfectly, just as Semenko did for that team.

3) I didn't know that empty net goals didn't count? So, does that mean the seasons that Gretzky had of 71, 87, and 77 don't count either??

4) I have not once discredited anything that Orr, Howe, or Lemieux have done. Why is it that people from "Non-Gretzky" camps feel the need to discredit all of the things he accomplished.

5) Gordie Howe, who played against both Orr and Gretzky says that Wayne is hand's down the best player. I could care less about sports writers, coaches and refs. Who do the players say?? Wayne.

6) I will say this, Bobby Orr was the best defensemen to ever play the game, no question about it. He paved the way for a guy like Paul Coffey to do what he did. He revolutionized the defensemen position to what it is today. Without the thing he did, hockey would not be the great game it is today. I give him all the credit in the world, only not as the greatest player to ever play.

7) This is all opinion based. If Orr and Gretzky played at the same time, with the same rules, the same positions, and against the same teams, this could be an argument. So, I will fight until I am blue in the face the Gretzky is King, you will do the same for Orr.

Edited by - Beans15 on 12/08/2006 14:03:11
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Guest5554
( )

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  17:03:36  Reply with Quote
Tretiak
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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2006 :  08:35:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky by far. Stats dont lie and hes got more asists then anyone else does points. Orr and Lemeiux could easily of been the best player ever but injuries shortened their careers to much.

Go pens
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B-rett10
Rookie



Canada
186 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2006 :  20:09:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky bud, Wh y would you even make a poll like this everyone knows its Gretzky.
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1454 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2006 :  20:20:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd say Gretzky,Yzerman the list goes on
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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2006 :  13:54:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well B-rett10 it doesnt look like everyone voted for Gretzky only just over half of the people did.

Go pens
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1454 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2006 :  16:42:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thats true B-rett10
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Guest5860
( )

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  10:41:36  Reply with Quote
Where do you rank Ogelthorpe??
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