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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  12:06:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He is precisely the 8583rd best player of all-time.

Edited by - bablaboushka on 12/12/2006 12:07:20
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Guest4912
( )

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  12:34:21  Reply with Quote
gretzky may have lots of points, but a bunch of those are SECOND assists.

gordie all the way!!!!!!!!!
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Guest4912
( )

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  12:37:52  Reply with Quote
dude, ogelthorpe is the best!

ogie! ogie! ogie! ogie! ogie! ogie!

wooooooooooooooo!!!!!
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Guest2919
( )

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  15:28:19  Reply with Quote
I won't argue with anyone who picked Wayne - but consider this:

Bobby Orr
Plus / Minus +124 in 1971
Art Ross Trophy - 2 (1970, 1975)
Hart Memorial - 3 (1970, 1971, 1972)
James Norris Trophy - 8 (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975)
Conn Smythe Trophy - 1 (1970)
Lester B. Pearson Trophy - 1 (1975)
Calder Trophy - 1 (1967)
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  15:58:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wayne Gretzky won nine Hart Trophies, the NHL's most valuable player award, and eight of these were awarded in consecutive years from 1980-87. Gretzky holds the record for most MVP awards of any player in North American professional sports.

Lou Kaplan Trophy (WHA rookie of the year) — 1979
Hart Memorial Trophy (most valuable player) — 1980—87, 1989
Art Ross Trophy (scoring champion) — 1981—87, 1990, 1991, 1994
Conn Smythe Trophy (playoff most valuable player) — 1985, 1988
Lester B. Pearson Award (outstanding player, voted by the players) – 1982—85, 1987
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (sportsmanship) — 1980, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999
NHL Plus/Minus Award (best plus-minus rating) — 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987
Chrysler-Dodge/NHL Performer of the Year – 1985—87
Lester Patrick Trophy (outstanding service to hockey in the United States) — 1994
Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year) — 1982, 1983, 1985, 1989
NHL All-Star Game MVP — 1983, 1989, 1999
NHL First All-Star Team — 1981—87, 1991
NHL Second All-Star Team — 1980, 1988—90, 1994, 1997, 1998
In 1998, he was ranked number 1 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players.

Wayne Gretzky held or shared 61 NHL records upon his retirement on April 18, 1999, including 40 regular season records, 15 playoff records, and 6 all-star records.

I think we have already proven that STATISTICALLY, no one touches Wayne.
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Trevman12
Rookie



Canada
182 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  05:51:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to take beans side on this one.
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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2006 :  13:45:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah I'm with Beans here

Go pens
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B-rett10
Rookie



Canada
186 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  22:28:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky my firends and just on thing look at the stats and highlights.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2006 :  07:21:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Top 5(in order)

Gretzky
Orr
Lemiuex
Howe
Messier

I would say that most people who know hockey would have those 5 guys at the top 5, although the order may be argued.
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framer87
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
338 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2006 :  08:30:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thats exactly my top 5

Go pens
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Trevman12
Rookie



Canada
182 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2006 :  08:53:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ya, me to
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Guest1796
( )

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  12:06:26  Reply with Quote
Saku Koivu is the best player off the ice. Very talented on the ice but the best captian ever!
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1915 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  16:19:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the question depends on what were comparing if were comparing stats then sure wayne would win but if we are doing style and attitude then i would pick ¥¥bobby orr¥¥ so its kinda difficult quistion it should be more descriptive and clear on what were comparing

£££bobby orr rules!!!!!!!£££
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Guest4689
( )

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  09:20:45  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

Gretzky..duh

Come on, he was the first player to score 50 goals in a game. He still holds or shares 64 records.64!!!!!! That is pretty good.

Go Canucks
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George Zoran
Top Prospect

Canada
55 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  09:24:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4689

quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

Gretzky..duh

Come on, he was the first player to score 50 goals in a game. He still holds or shares 64 records.64!!!!!! That is pretty good.

Go Canucks



Ummm....he never scored 50 goals in a game. He was the fastest to score 50 (39 games)

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Guest4785
( )

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  15:10:36  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Zoran

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4689

quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

Gretzky..duh

Come on, he was the first player to score 50 goals in a game. He still holds or shares 64 records.64!!!!!! That is pretty good.

Go Canucks



Ummm....he never scored 50 goals in a game. He was the fastest to score 50 (39 games)



yep i think he scored 50 goals in 34 or 37 games(it was in the 30 game mark)
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Trevman12
Rookie



Canada
182 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  15:53:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/quote]yep i think he scored 50 goals in 34 or 37 games(it was in the 30 game mark)
[/quote]
It was 50 in 39 games.
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  17:40:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4785, it was 39 games. The guy you quoted even said it.
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Guest0893
( )

Posted - 12/27/2006 :  15:06:34  Reply with Quote
Patrick Roy isn't in the choices ?

Just because the guy never scored a single goal doesn't mean he wasn't good. Hands down the best goalie to ever play the game, and worthy of consideration for best "player" ever too.

...still voted for Wayne thought
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Blubberboy
Rookie



155 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2007 :  13:19:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maurice "Rocket" Richard!!
He is awesome player.

Go Vancouver
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spearbelly
Top Prospect

Canada
98 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2007 :  01:55:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1796

Saku Koivu is the best player off the ice.


Off The Ice??????.....I suppose Brad Marsh in a prolonged Easter egg Hunt means nothing to anybody .
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2007 :  11:52:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by B-rett10

Gretzky bud, Wh y would you even make a poll like this everyone knows its Gretzky.



I was thinking that too
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Blubberboy
Rookie



155 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2007 :  17:58:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wayne Gretzky

Go Vancouver
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Guest8336
( )

Posted - 01/08/2007 :  21:09:48  Reply with Quote
Well, I feel i must respond again.
I think we would all agree that comparing Orr and Gretzky accurately is quite difficult. So may i suggest we compare how much better they were than the next best player in their relative positions. To do so let's use some stats. This should keep the pro Gretz camp happy as this is their number one(and pretty much only) argument to validate their claim.

The "previous" numbers listed below are from the next closest player that they surpassed..
This info is directly out of The Hockey News - 100 Greatest Players Book.

Starting with Gretzky. Highest Goals in a Season - 92
Previous highest goals in a season 76. A 21% increase.

Highest assists in a season - 163.
Previous highest assists in a season - 102. A 60% increase.

HIghest points in a season - 215.
Previous highest points in a season - 152. A 41% increase.

Very impressive indeed. Now lets look at how much better Orr was then his peers.

Highest Goals in a season - 46.
Previous highest goals in a season - 24. A 92% increase!!!!

Highest assists in a season - 102.
Previous highest assists in a season 52. A 96% increase!!!!!!

Highest points in a season - 139.
Previous highest points in a season - 63. A 121% increase!!!!!!

I hope the pro-Gretzky camp likes apples. Lol. Cause you can stick those apples in your pipe ans smoke 'em.

Oh and to Beans who said "ask Howe who he says the best is", well ok.
And i quote: "My favourite as the No.1 player of all-time would be Bobby Orr, I loved how he played the game, I loved the way he changed the game and the quickness that he had." - The Hockey News

And if you ask the players who played against them both, the majority by far say Orr.

Oh, and by the way, if you're interested to know who Orr thinks is the greatest? He says Lemieux.

Oh and Beans, my replies to your last numerically listed comments:
1) It would be absurd to compare scoring stats from a defenceman to a forward. Don't ya think?
2)Yes i honestly think he would not have had the production that he did have if he were not protected. He wouldn't have survived a season.
3)You have to admit, empty net goals are pretty cheezy.
4)Not trying to discredit him. But let's give credit where it's due. Statistically he appears to be the best. But there's far more to hockey than statistics.
5)See above quote from The Hockey News
6)Yes, he was far and away the best d-man to ever play the game and probably always will be. He was that good.
7)You are right. It's all just opinion. But mines the only one that matters. LOL

Come on Beans. Bring it.



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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2007 :  21:11:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, woops, that's my post above. Willus3
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  00:13:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey 8336. nice post. very interesting perspective. become a member so we can talk some more. It would be good to meet someone who puts some thought into their posts. Babs is starting to bore me after 2 years.

However Wayne Gretzky dominated for 22 years while Bobby Orr did it for less than 12 (of which in the last 3 years he played less than 40 games total). Full props to Bobby but staying healthy is half the battle. Mario might have been better than Wayne but we'll never know and therefore he wasn't.
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Guest4139
( )

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  06:55:30  Reply with Quote
No goalies on the list so i'll throw two out there:

Roy vs. Tretiak
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  11:15:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Leigh, Thanks.
It was I who posted under Guest 8336.
I am a member.
Yes Orr's career was far too short. Largely because of the way he played. Hi style was to go after every oppurtunity and play without fear.
He has said that he didn't know any other way to play. He never held back to save himself but instead gave everything he had for the team.
Pretty hard to hold that against a guy, no?
I believe if he had held back for self preservation, like others did, his legend would be diminished. Not holding back is what made him so special.
A sad day indeed when he retired. Howe said it best. "Losing Bobby was the biggest loss hockey has known."
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  11:39:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Further to my last post with stats.
Orr was literally 100% better than the next defenceman in the league.
If that doesn't sink in I don't know what will.
Bobby Clarke was right. "In many ways, Bobby was too good for the rest of us."
Also since i think we all agree that we can't compare Gretz and Orr directly because of the positions they played, ponder this; Change their positions. Imagine Orr as a forward and Gretz as a defenceman. Could Orr do what Gretz did? Well considering he held the record for assists in a season while playing defence, until Gretz broke it, I would have to guess that if he were playing centre that it is very possible he would have put up numbers at least as good as Gretz.
Same for goals. 46 as a d-man. Could easily be double as a centre.
But for some reason i just can't picture Gretzy playing defence.
I don't think anyone would argue with that, would they?
Therfore if you can easily imagine Orr playing both positions and Gretz only one, who is the better player?

And hey B-rett10, what's with the Orr pic? Hypocrite. LOL
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  13:45:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been silent for long enough. I have been patiently waiting for someone to come with a real argument as to who is better between Wayne and Bobby. I have not heard one as of yet, but I must make my rebuttal none the less. Here is my response to Guest 8336 as well as willus3.

Firstly, to the suggestion that Orr’s records broke the next nearest guys records by a larger percentage than Gretzky’s did. What does that say?? I’m trying to find the relevance of that. Orr’s era and prior had far fewer players and far fewer teams than Gretzky’s. That means to me that Gretzky had to compete against records set by people before his time, but also with many, many more players in the league since he started. Do you think that there is a reason that 80% of the all time leading NHL point getters started their careers after 1975?? Gretzky competed with the majority of the all time leading scorers in history. Orr competed with less than 20% of them. If you want to talk about apples and smoking them, let’s make sure you are talking about the same apples. Gretzky’s peers were much higher scoring than Orr’s peers, so obviously, Orr broke records by more. He was competing with fewer players and less high scoring players. But who has the records now?? Who still has the records that were mostly made in the 80’s?? And finally on that note, you got all that information from the Hockey News. Was that the one from 1997 when they pulled together a panel of 50 “experts” including former NHL players, past and present writers, broadcasters, coaches and hockey executives??Who was it they listed as the best player of all time?? Just wondering…….

And to rebuttal your rebuttal by number:

1) It is absurd to compare stats of a defenseman to a forward. Why do you keep doing it?? (See percentages records broken by, blah, blah, and blah.)
2) Again, his first year in the league he has 137 points, the year after he had 164, his third year he had 212. Are you trying to tell me the mythical “Gretzky Rule” was created before he even came into the league?? That’s bollocks and you know it. If he was so heralded before he came into the league to create the no touch Gretzky rule, then why was he never ever drafted by an NHL club? Even though he was available, no NHL team drafted him. I will not argue that for at least the second half of his career, or maybe a bit more, he did get special treatment. Not only by the league but the players as well. But not off the start. No way will you ever convince me that he was protected off the start. He got the treatment after he broke pretty much every single season offensive statistic.
3) Empty net goals are cheesy. But everyone has the opportunity to them. They count the same for everyone.
4) I like this one. I did give credit where credit it due for Mr. Orr. And there is more to hockey than statistics. Lots more. So, let’s discuss this for a second. What is important in hockey? Cups?? Respect?? What else? We know Gretz owns the record book so I will leave that alone for a second. So, Wayne has more Cups than Orr. Wayne is the only player is history to get his number retired “league wide.” He is and always will be the last player to be inducted into the Hall of Fame without the minimum 10 year wait. And, going back to the infamous “Gretzky Rule” if that is true, he had enough respect and impact on the game for there to be an unwritten rule about him. Orr did not have any of that. Where is the credit for Gretzky’s impact on the game outside of his stats?? Not coming from the Orr/Howe/Lemieux Camps is it?? All you hear is “Put him in Orr or Howe’s era and he does nothing.” Of you here, “If Lemieux never got sick or had back problems.” I feel that all of these players would have been amazing in any era. All of them, regardless of who they are.
5) Is that again the same Hockey News that rated Orr behind Gretzky as the Greatest Ever?? Just wondering…..
6) I gave the props that Orr deserves. He’s just not the Greatest. He’s #2.
7) Opinion is opinion. Yours may matter to you, but mine is the one that makes sense.



And finally, my only answer to willus3 is that you can say all you want about “what could have been” and “what if.” What if Lemieux never had cancer or back problems, what if Orr played in the same years as Gretzky or visa versa, what if Orr played centre and Gretzky defense. Stick to the fact man. They are what they are. Compare what is there, not what could have, should have, and would have been. To me, it’s a waste of time.


Enjoy!
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  16:06:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4139

No goalies on the list so i'll throw two out there:

Roy vs. Tretiak



Tretiak
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Guest0530
( )

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  19:10:20  Reply with Quote
I think you're done Beans. Guest 8336/Willus3 has put you in your place. You Gretzky guys throw out stats and numbers like it is gospel. Those percentiles and numbers that Willus3 threw out make perfect sense in the case for Orr as the greatest ever. Come on Beans...don't you think there is more to the game than stats?
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  22:03:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans, I gotta ask, how old are you?
And please be honest.

You don't understand the relevance of my comparison? Then I'm not sure i can help you. What it shows, from a points scoring perspective, is how much better each of these guys was than the closest competitor. And to your comment that Gretz played against more players, well you're shooting yourself in the foot there. More players equals less talent, not more. When the league expands it gets watered down all for the almighty dollar. What they should do now is make another elite league of say 12 teams. Call it the ENHL or something. You'd see some great hockey there. But I digress.
You kinda like pulling quotes and stats outta your ass I see.
Use the facts man. Don't just type in your estimates. Seriously.
Yes the facts i used came from the book you mention.
Gretzky was named Number 1. But there is a caveat. Were you aware that both Gretz and Orr received the same number of first place votes - 18.
It came down to the number of second place votes each got. And the difference in the voting was less than 1%. Not what I'd call a definitive victory. For all intents and purposes, that's a tie.
1) I don't keep comparing their stats. I did that for the Gretzky camp who constantly use that crutch. Look at the stats, look at the stats.
2)He wasn't drafted because the concensus was he wouldn't survive. Glen Sather came up the braincihild to use an enforcer to protect him so he could play.
4) If you don't think Orr is respected you're on crack.
Wayne has four cups because he was on a Dynasty. Boston was certainly never accused of being a dynasty. lol. They didn't not him him out of respect. It was because they knew they'd be better off if they didn't. Only a few actually got away with it. Messier was one. I still love that. And Gary Suter, who is pretty much a pariah in the hockey world now,who injured Wayne's neck. Orr had the waiting period waived too. No big wuup.
7) Makes sense if you're remedial.

And it's a waste of time to you to ponder what could have been either because you have no imagination or because you're afraid you'd come to your senses and realize how much talent Orr really had.

Come on Beans, bring your A game.

Thanks for the suport Guest 0530. We should get together for beers. LOL.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  23:30:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Getting More fun. I look forward to your reply.

1) I am 29. I also grew up an hour from Edmonton so I had a chance to see Wayne play a lot more than I have ever seen tapes of Orr. So do I have a bias? Yes I do.

2) Is it not a contradiction to tell me to stop relying on stats yet speak so highly of the relevance of the "percentage of beating the record"thing??

3) What "estimates" are you talking about??? Seriously.

3) More players equals less talent?? If that is true, why are the majority of the leading all time point getters in the NHL from the post expansion era?? Also the leading point per game guys, just because I expect the more games arguement to be coming next.

4) Most of the other points have been already been discussed at length in this forum before, so I will not go back and has been said.

5) I never once discredited Orr's talent. I am simply saying that Wayne was the Greatest of All time. Orr was number two. Saying that a guy is the 2nd best player to ever live must be saying he is pretty talented.

And finally, to say I have no imagination and that I would come to my senses is interesting. I will step out of reality for a second, and I would appreciate you thinking about this a little before your reply.

Could you imagine if Wayne was a decent skater??

Could you imagine if Wayne could stick handle well??

Could you imagine Wayne at 6'2", 200 lbs??

Could you imagine Wayne with Toughness??


And finally, can you imagine for just one second, that Wayne Gretzky achieved everything he without the things I just mentioned???

Wonder how he did that???
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
538 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  23:42:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
judging by you guys/girls habit of jumping the gun, I'm suprised you didn't put sid on there

I HATE CROSBY
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  10:09:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well at least you're now admitting you are biased Beans.
I grew up 20 minutes from Wayne. I now live in Alberta. I am fortunate enough to have watched both of their careers. I am not particularly biased. I am a fan of great hockey and great talent.
Now I need to know what defines a great hockey player to you?
I think our definition of greatness differs greatly. Is the use of the word great starting to grate on your nerves yet? Lol.
I haven't really used stats much at all until that one, and i did that because stats are what Gretzky supprters always use for an argument. So i showed a stat for your benefit. And by the way, there are far more records obtainable by a forward than there is for a defenceman.

If Wayne had the attributes you mention he probably would have been phenomenal. But then again, he may have played differently with those talents. It would have been great to see. Oh wait, we did see it. Only his name was Lemieux, not Gretzky.
And i already told you how Gretz did what he did without those talents.

Hey there I HATE CROSBY. You are going to be able to witness one of the greats in hockey. The kids the real deal. He's got the whole package.
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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2164 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  10:43:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Play nice Mkay...
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  11:07:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes Mister Lumberg. Lol.
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Guest2281
( )

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  11:44:03  Reply with Quote
this is for guest 8977 to read,
you say that anyone who picked orr, howe, or lemieux for the best player ever has no hockey knowledge. Well you are a stupid, ignorent retard. For your information, all of these players were on different teams in different eras. So for you to say that you cant pick any one of those players is something some random idiot who happened to open a stat book would say. For example, orr got 915 points in his 12 year career, playing only 657 games, beacuse of his injuries, won 2 scoring titles, AS A DEFENCEMAN, and changed the traditional play of the defenceman, but while still playing defence, he was plus 597 in his career, not counting the first year because they didnt record it that year. So how can you say is the only pick for best ever. Or Maurice Richard, 50 goals in 50 games, that was unspeakable of in that era. Or Howe, 1850 points over 5 decades of hockey, playing into he was 52, he even made a comeback when he was 70 in 1998, and played 1 game in the IHL for the detroit vipers. And Mario has some damn good records too, like 5 goals in one game in all posible ways, pp, sh, even strength, penalty shot, empty net, so you could make an arguement for him as the best player ever too. So next time you make a comment, mr. guest 8977, do it on something that you have knowledge on, not something that you obviously havnt ever thought about, you stupid, retarded, dumdass, piece of crap.
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spearbelly
Top Prospect

Canada
98 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2007 :  11:49:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


This Poll could've been simplified.....WHO WERE THE GREATEST TWO HOCKEY PLAYERS EVER ?......................I,m glad it wasn,t..................Good stuff guys.
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