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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2009 : 13:40:17
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Poll Question:
Which top 4 is best right now out of these 2 teams.
Detroit - Franzen, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Washington - Ovechkin, Green, Backstrom, Semin
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Edited by - brentrock2 on 09/30/2009 11:46:57
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 13:44:10
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Ovechkin > Datsyuk
Semin > Franzen
Backstrom = Zetterberg
Green = Lidstrom
I think Washington,s top 4 are a bit better than Detroit's but Detroit's top 4 is also really good.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 14:32:53
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Ovechkin > Datsyuk Maybe on the scoreboard, I`ll live with this
Semin > Franzen Is Semin ever going to blossom into the player we all think he is. Is he ever going to play a full season. Put these 2 players in front on the net for a fight for the puck and then choose Semin. I`d say equal.
Backstrom = Zetterberg So much wrong with this one I can believe your actually put this down for others to read.
Green = Lidstrom Lindstrom has had 15 good year compared to Greens 1 or 2. What Green puts in the net, Lindstrom sets up. Lindstrom is a premier defenseman and both ends of the rink. How does equal make sense in this comparison. |
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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 10:24:11
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| I would say that Ovechkin is better than Datsyuk. If Semin plays the way he did last year then he's better than Franzen. When you compare Backstrom to Zetterberg I think Zetterberg is a bit better. However, that might change soon. The only reason that Backstrom has more points than him last year is because Zetterberg had an off year and because Backstrom was playing with Ovechkin. I would say that this is pretty close, to close to call. Then there's Green and Lidstrom. Green at the moment is better offensively than Lidstrom, but Lidstrom is better overall, no doubt. Therefore, I would put the Capitals top 4 better than Detroits. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 10:42:07
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I like the way people are so askew towards offensive. Really, shocking at times.
I would agree that Ovechkin is a more productive offensive player, but I don't think he is a better offensive player nor a better overall player than Pavel Datsyuk. There is not a single facit of the game that Datsyuk is weak in. He scores 30 goals a year and throws in close to 100 points. Sure, Ovechkin put in 50 goals but only 10ish more points??? Ovechkin is not nearly as good a set up man as Datsyuk. And there is absolutely no contest defensively. Datsuyk is the best defensive forward in the league. Ovechkin is not even close.
Datsyuk over Ovechkin.
Backstrom is a nice player and he will continue to get better, but he does not compare today with Zetterberg. Offensively, they are very similar and I would basically call it a draw. However as with Ovechkin vs Datsyuk, Zetterberg is the far superior defensive player compared to Backstrom.
Zetterberg over Backstrom.
I would agree with Semin over Frazen. Both are depended upon for secondary offense, and I think Semin is better. There have been injury issues with Semin but that does not mean he's not as good of a player. If I was down a goal with 2 minutes left, I would like Franzen because he is simply clutch, but overall I like Semin here.
Zemin over Franzen
Now, definately not the popular choice, and I by no means do I think that Green is a pylon on defense, but comaring him to Nick Lidstrom, he is not even in the same league defensively. Lidstrom is still one of the top 3 defensive players in the league in his late 30's and is still a top 10 offensive player. Sure, Green is a beast and could be Paul Coffey without the speed, but he's not as good of a player (yet) than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom over Green
In the end, the Detroit players are comparable but slightly below the Washington players offensive. But the Detroit players are so far ahead of the Washington guys on the defensive side of the puck, it makes it not even close. There is a reason that the Wings haven't done worse than the West Finals for the past 3 years, have a Cup and been to the finals twice. Much of that is Lidstom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk.
Red Wings player by a reasonable margin. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 15:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like the way people are so askew towards offensive. Really, shocking at times.
I would agree that Ovechkin is a more productive offensive player, but I don't think he is a better offensive player nor a better overall player than Pavel Datsyuk. There is not a single facit of the game that Datsyuk is weak in. He scores 30 goals a year and throws in close to 100 points. Sure, Ovechkin put in 50 goals but only 10ish more points??? Ovechkin is not nearly as good a set up man as Datsyuk. And there is absolutely no contest defensively. Datsuyk is the best defensive forward in the league. Ovechkin is not even close.
Datsyuk over Ovechkin.
Backstrom is a nice player and he will continue to get better, but he does not compare today with Zetterberg. Offensively, they are very similar and I would basically call it a draw. However as with Ovechkin vs Datsyuk, Zetterberg is the far superior defensive player compared to Backstrom.
Zetterberg over Backstrom.
I would agree with Semin over Frazen. Both are depended upon for secondary offense, and I think Semin is better. There have been injury issues with Semin but that does not mean he's not as good of a player. If I was down a goal with 2 minutes left, I would like Franzen because he is simply clutch, but overall I like Semin here.
Zemin over Franzen
Now, definately not the popular choice, and I by no means do I think that Green is a pylon on defense, but comaring him to Nick Lidstrom, he is not even in the same league defensively. Lidstrom is still one of the top 3 defensive players in the league in his late 30's and is still a top 10 offensive player. Sure, Green is a beast and could be Paul Coffey without the speed, but he's not as good of a player (yet) than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom over Green
In the end, the Detroit players are comparable but slightly below the Washington players offensive. But the Detroit players are so far ahead of the Washington guys on the defensive side of the puck, it makes it not even close. There is a reason that the Wings haven't done worse than the West Finals for the past 3 years, have a Cup and been to the finals twice. Much of that is Lidstom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk.
Red Wings player by a reasonable margin.
I agree with Beans on this one. The Washington players outgun the Detroit players offensively but on the defensive side of the puck there is no comparison. |
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PhillyFan12
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:10:48
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my predictions i think would be is:
Ovechkin=Datsyuk
Green=Lidstrom
Semin<Zetterberg
Backstrom>Franzen
I would say egual to the look of my predictions.
PhillyFan12
Philly Rules!!! |
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 12:09:54
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Just added in Even in this poll, forgot to add when I first made it.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
Edited by - brentrock2 on 09/28/2009 14:48:23 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 14:22:55
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Wow, another post from Beans that i actually COMPLETELY agree with! What's going on here?  |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 10:09:09
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I voted "even", but if pressed to pick one, I'd pick the 4 from Washington, if just for the simple fact that the MVP is in that group.
I think some of the comparisons are a bit unfair, as myself, I compared:
Ovechkin / Zetterberg (best goal-scorers)
Datsyuk / Backstrom (best passers/playmakers)
Franzen / Semin (best secondary scorers)
Lidstrom / Green (d-men obviously)
It's tough, because depending on who who match who with, one might get a different result, and for the people who would take Datsyuk over Ovechkin comparing them I can only shake my head. The MVP is the MOST valuable player, so how can anyone else be more valuable at this time? As voted by the players as well! Datsyuk is a fantastic player, as are all the other contenders, but clearly, overall opinion is very solid on Ovechkin being the best . . .
The only pairing I had Detroit winning was Datsyuk over Backstrom, and again, only because Datsyuk is a more complete player at this time. I think Backstrom still has plenty of upside though.
I have Lidstrom and Green even. Lidstrom is on a downswing, Green is getting better, and please refresh my memory on who the two Norris runner-ups were? It's much better offence vs a bit better defence. Green is sorely underrated for a guy who kills penalties and is always keeping the offence wary because of his scoring abilities.
I have Semin over Franzen, and even over Zetterberg if matched up against him. He has REALLY matured, and is poised to vault into superstar status if he plays a full season this year. His defensive responsibility is night and day from what it was, and he should be able to outscore any other Detroit player when healthy.
Washington by a nose.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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PhillyFan12
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 11:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by brentrock2
Just added in Even in this poll, forgot to add when I first made it.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
you should also add Undecided in it to.Also why do you have 4 of these after washington's and Detroit's
You said Wahington""s and Detroits""OMG!!!
Phillyfan12
Philly Rules!!! |
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 11:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by PhillyFan12
quote:
Originally posted by brentrock2
Just added in Even in this poll, forgot to add when I first made it.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
you should also add Undecided in it to.Also why do you have 4 of these after washington's and Detroit's
You said Wahington""s and Detroits""OMG!!!
Phillyfan12
Philly Rules!!!
I just added Undecided and took off the quotation marks, I dont even know why they were there??
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 14:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like the way people are so askew towards offensive. Really, shocking at times.
I would agree that Ovechkin is a more productive offensive player, but I don't think he is a better offensive player nor a better overall player than Pavel Datsyuk. There is not a single facit of the game that Datsyuk is weak in. He scores 30 goals a year and throws in close to 100 points. Sure, Ovechkin put in 50 goals but only 10ish more points??? Ovechkin is not nearly as good a set up man as Datsyuk. And there is absolutely no contest defensively. Datsuyk is the best defensive forward in the league. Ovechkin is not even close.
Datsyuk over Ovechkin.
Backstrom is a nice player and he will continue to get better, but he does not compare today with Zetterberg. Offensively, they are very similar and I would basically call it a draw. However as with Ovechkin vs Datsyuk, Zetterberg is the far superior defensive player compared to Backstrom.
Zetterberg over Backstrom.
I would agree with Semin over Frazen. Both are depended upon for secondary offense, and I think Semin is better. There have been injury issues with Semin but that does not mean he's not as good of a player. If I was down a goal with 2 minutes left, I would like Franzen because he is simply clutch, but overall I like Semin here.
Zemin over Franzen
Now, definately not the popular choice, and I by no means do I think that Green is a pylon on defense, but comaring him to Nick Lidstrom, he is not even in the same league defensively. Lidstrom is still one of the top 3 defensive players in the league in his late 30's and is still a top 10 offensive player. Sure, Green is a beast and could be Paul Coffey without the speed, but he's not as good of a player (yet) than Lidstrom.
Lidstrom over Green
In the end, the Detroit players are comparable but slightly below the Washington players offensive. But the Detroit players are so far ahead of the Washington guys on the defensive side of the puck, it makes it not even close. There is a reason that the Wings haven't done worse than the West Finals for the past 3 years, have a Cup and been to the finals twice. Much of that is Lidstom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk.
Red Wings player by a reasonable margin.
OK, hold on there Beans. I must disagree with some of your assumptions on these players.
Datsyuk > Ovechkin
I will not go on to say how Ovechkin is a better player and that, because he scores more than Datsyuk, he is move valuable. Defense is a good point (Mike Richards is the best two-way player, btw) but what Ovie brings to a team is, in my opinion, of more value than Datsyuk. Sure, Datsyuk is a good two-way player, but Ovechkin is no slouch. In fact, Ovie's defensive game is one of the area he has improved most on since he's been in the NHL. I'm not saying that he is always first man back, but in his defensive zone he is no liability. Not up to Datsyuk by any means of the imagination, but I would not go as far as to say as it is no contest. And the defensive fact should not be the deal breaker. Ovechkin is nowhere near the setup man that Datsyuk is, yes, but Datsyuk is nowhere near the goalscorer Ovechkin is. They play two very different games offensively, and defensively for that matter. It must all be a matter of opinion, but it is nowhere near cut and dry that Datsyuk is better than Ovie, or vise-versa. I would say that Ovechkin is better, because really whenever he is on the ice he generates something. You always have to be looking for him. The same can't be said about Datsyuk, because although he is very dangerous you can't possibly tell me that a defensive player would pay him more attention than Ovechkin.
Ovechkin > Datsyuk
Zetterberg > Backstrom
I have to agree here, but not because of defense. Or the fact that they are near par offensively. Backstrom is a beneficiary of playing with Ovechkin, as Zetterberg is a beneficiary of Datsyuk. But let's say we put Zetterberg on Pheonix and Backstrom on Pheonix (obviously not together). Who is better than, playing with I would assume Kyle Turris and Shane Doan (or even Petr Prucha and Vernon Fiddler)? I think anyone can agree that Zetterberg would be almost a full head above Backstrom. Not to say Backstrom is bad or that Ovie makes him, but really you have to take into account the mass over inflation his stats and playmaking abilities get when playing with Ovechkin. Hell, everyone though Ryan Malone was the next Todd Bertuzzi when playing with Crosby. Plays with Tampa; nothing happens! I think that Zetterberg is overall the better player, in most facets of hockey.
Zetterberg > Backstrom
Semin > Franzen
This is probably the most difficult one in my opinion. I have become a huge Franzen fan since last season, basically because I completely think that Franzen is constantly improving every year. He adjusts to how defenses play him and manges to find ways to get to the puck when it wouldn't seem like he could. His size and linemates help, but Franzen continually gets better. His postseason stats speak for themselves, as he is always a consistent player when it counts most. Semin just seems to have a ton of skill, flat out. He is arguably the best 2nd line player in the game (which is due mainly to spread the offense), and easily one of the most skilled in terms of stickhandling, skating, passing and offensive awareness. The only knock on Semin is that he is injury prone. His skills are there, without a question, and he easily has the potential to have his name as one of the top ten offensive players. If he stays healthy, watch out. So its skill vs. strength , longevity vs. stints on the DL. As of right now, at this minute, I go with Semin. But if Semin's health is a question every season and you can expect to miss 20 games every year, it is Franzen in a heartbeat.
Semin > Franzen
Lidstrom > Green
Lidstrom. I am not a Green fan, and besides his outlet pass and first pass, don't think he matches up anywhere to Lidstrom. There are many defenseman that I would take over Green. And if Green can't pull off even a decent year offensively, I will become even less of a fan of his. But I digress. Lidstrom by a mile (haha we agree here completely Beans).
Lidstrom > Green
In the end I think we have made roughly the same choices about these players, but we take different views on each player. To each his own, I guess. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 15:20:34
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Ok, first of all a little correction. Last year at least and most of the season before, Zetterberg did not play on the same like as Datsyuk outside of the PP. Zetterberg played nearly exclusively with Franzen and Cleary while Datsyuk played with Holmstrom and Hossa.
Secondly, I think you are grossly underestimating Datsyuk's skills. I think he is under rated and many people over look him because he has played his career on very good hockey team. He reminds me of Federov. Although Yzerman was the face and the skill behind those Wings teams, it was Fedorov's play that impacted them winning or losing.
As I said before, if I wanted to win, I take Datsyuk. If I want to make money, I go Ovechkin. Ovechkin has shown me over and over that he would rather look good than win. Datsyuk wins. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/01/2009 15:22:51 |
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Guest5925
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Posted - 10/01/2009 : 23:44:48
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I understand where everyones coming from, but the decision is actually pretty obvious.
Ovie has the flash and sells the tickets, but datsyuk only puts up 10-15 points less a year, while consistently being a selke candidate. So datsyuk, in the end, i believe is the more valuable player.
zetterberg over backstrom for the same reason. he'll put up slightly less points but in the end the upside is much higher for zet because he is again one of the best defensive forwards the league.
franzen and semin is about even, franzen has the size though and is right now the most clutch scorer or one of at least, in the nhl.
lidstrom hands down over green, anyone who disagrees should be ashamed. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 08:21:14
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As a forward, a guy whose primary function is to create or score goals, Datsyuk is at the very least a full tier below Ovechkin. Don't even get me started, Beans . . .
07/08
Ovechkin: 82gp - 65g 47a, 112 points (Hart, Pearson, Richard, Ross)
Datsyuk: 82gp - 31g, 66a, 97 points (Selke)
08/09
Ovechkin: 70gp - 56g, 54a, 110 points (Hart, Pearson, Richard)
Datsyuk: 81gp - 32g, 65a, 97 points (Selke, nominated for Hart)
. . . because we could each come up with a weighting system for how valuable offense and defence are for forwards, and I can't think that anyone would rate defence as more than half the value of offence for any centreman or winger. It is totally insane to be bringing up defence when everyonemost hockey minds are in agreement that for the last two years, Ovechkin was the Most Valuable Player. Period! I mean, if we were arguing Malkin or Ovechkin, it might be different . . . but we're not.
Most. Valuable. Player.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 10/02/2009 08:23:43 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 09:50:45
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Serious Slozo, I dig you opinion, but I'm not exactly sure if you are aware that there are two side to the rink??? I don't think mostany knowledgable hockey fan would ever confuse Ovechkin and Datsuyk on the the defensive end of the ice. And I am not sure how many coaches or GM's out there would agree with your weighting on offense and defense. Granted, I would suggest that most GM's would take Ovechkin over Datsuyk, but I think that's based mostly on age and marketability.
The best of the best. The best of all time were all stars on both sides of the puck. Ovechkin is not. At least not today. He may very well be there one day. He gets his normally minute a game on the PK most often in the last 25ish seconds of the penalty. Datsuyk is his team's #1 penalty killing centre.
And don't even get me started on the 60+ less minutes a season that Ovechkin is sitting in the penalty box. Datsuyk is not only the best defensive forward in the game, he does it while getting a minor penalty once every 4 games!
And I'd also like to note that if Datsuyk took the shots that Ovechkin took, he's have 65-70 goals a year as well. Let's not forget the glaring different in +/-.
Could Ovechkin play as well defensively as Datsuyk does today?? I think he could. He is a brilliantly skilled player and appears to have the work ethic to do anything he wants. However, if he did, could he still be a top 5 scoring player in the NHL??? I'm not so sure about that. If Datsuyk focused completely on offense as Ovechkin does, I have no doubt in my mind that his production would be the same or more than Ovechkin. However, Datsuyk knows what it takes to win.
And don't get me started on the Hart Trophy and how askew it is to offensive players. Above that, the Hart Trophy is not awarded to the League MVP. It is awarded to the PLAYER most valuable to HIS TEAM. For that, I agree. Take Ovechkin off the Caps and they are not as good of a team. But the true Hart winner last year was Luongo. Without him they were out of the playoffs, with him, they win the division. But I digress.
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Which top 4 is the best right now? 
