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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  08:47:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I think some people are not putting this into the perspective of the actual situation. I need only ask one question.

What GM in their right mind would sell the farm for a player than they can pick up for straight cash and no players on July 1st??

The only way that a Kovalchuk trade would match market value is if the deal is a long term sign in ATL and then a trade. And again, why would a GM want to do that if Kovalchuk will come for no players??

The answer to that is only those team that made bad decisions with salaries and want to dump, such as the Oilers. But let's face it, will Waddell really want a deal for Horcoff and Gilbert at a combined $10 million a season?? Not on your life.

I still say Kovalchuk signs in ATL as they can't get fair market value for him today as a UFA in a matter of months and that team is nothing without him.



I say "absolutely no way" at the end of the year Kovalchuk is UFA, if he's is a last minute trade without significant return Atlanta loses huge, so only options are a resign or trade with good return.

Do you think Waddel is gonna go into the playoffs with an unsigned Kovalchuk and hope this Atlanta teams got the depth for a playoff run? And do you think if available prior to the trade deadline Kovalchuk would not be the hottest trade deadline player on the market since Hossa 2 years ago? Anybody who has a chance with negotiating with Kovalchuk, prior to a completed trade, would obviously try to nail down a contract prior to pulling the trigger on a trade with decent return.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/08/2010 08:50:53
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Guest4803
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Posted - 01/08/2010 :  12:52:31  Reply with Quote
if hes not going to sign in Atlanta they will trade him somehow no matter what ... if its at the deadline or if its trading his rights at the draft similar to bouwmeester this year
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  13:29:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heres a scary proposition. Shero in Washington apparently has free cap space and is may be willing to trade away a player like Semin and others in the hopes of landing Kovalchuk. Wow. Not a team I thought on the hunt for Kovalchuk but it makes more sense than most of the rumours being thrown around. Heres a link to the article, look for the Capitals reference on page 2 at the end of the article.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34740075/ns/sports-nhl/
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Guest2106
( )

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  14:43:56  Reply with Quote
I agree Slozo, you can always hope. I'd love to see him in Vancouver, but I know its not going to happen.

Beans, no one will sell the farm, but two young players with potential and a midlevel prospect is about right for a top notch deadline aquisition.

Hossa/Dupuis for Christensen/Armstrong/Esposito (1st rounder who many had doubts about)/

Jokinen for Lombardi/Prust and a 1st rounder (I think Jokinen was signed, which would explain the 1st rounder and mature top 6er).

In short, Kovi is very tradeable, and it won't be for the farm, just part of it.

I've heard the LeBrun rumor of Kovi to Chicago for Barker/Versteeg. That deal actually seems fair to me. Chicago needs to dump for cap space anyway, Kovi would be a good addition and Atlanta gets two players who are both young, signed, and showing potential.

Other teams I've heard mentioned, that seem less probable Vancouver and Wash. Neither of which seems even possible. Montreal, because Gainey was already willing to sell the farm for Lecavlier and Atlanta needs a Goalie prospect. NYR because only Gaborik can score, but I think they are tight against the cap. Philly in a sign and trade for Carter.

Thoughts?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  18:26:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't see the Barker/Versteeg for Kovalchuk as that would only be the rental for this year. Chicago does not have the $9-11 million a year that Kovalchuk is looking for and will get. Barker and Versteeg if far to high a price for a rental.

I agree it will take 1-2 roster players, a propect, and a draft pick.

All I am saying that the big deal (the Phaneuf/Jokinen for Kovalchuk as posted in another thread) is simply not going to happen without a sign and trade.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5786 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  20:51:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, while i agree that Versteeg and Barker would be a steep price for a rental, i could still see it happening? If the Hawks are as close as they think they are and appear to be, Kovie would most certainly make them the instant favorite for the cup? They have so many young guys that they have to get signed and those they have signed recently that i don't see them having the cap space to get him long term? Would he go there, play out the year and if they don't win the cup, possibly pull a Hossa and sign for cheap for the next year to take a run at the cup again then move on?

I really hope he stays in Atlanta!
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2010 :  23:54:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't see Kovalchuk taking a pay cut on any team, for a short run at the cup. Not yet anyways.

If Kovalchuk is going to move, I suspect it's going to be a place where he will get his top dollar amount, with a long(er) contract. It may not be a big, 7+ year deal. But i'd suspect he'd want atleast 3-5 years. Ideally, if he does move teams, I believe he'd want it to be for the rest of his career, and with that being said, he'd likely be pretty picking at choosing the team. And with his high rate, dollar wise, this limits things way down.

Very few teams can afford him, very few teams want to commit to a multi-year deal for that kind of money, and Kovi will want to choose atleast partially, where he goes. (Meaning: He will narrow it down to several teams, not just any team willing to sign him for the dollar amount he wants.)

Atlanta is his home, he's there to stay.

Irvine/prez.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  04:21:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We'll see Irvine . . . but I went through my reasoning on why I think Kovalchuk is planning on leaving Atlanta earlier in my dissemination of the language he uses.

What has Kovalchuk done or said to make you believe so strongly he will stay in Atlanta?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest2106
( )

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  10:42:05  Reply with Quote
Slozo, Kovi has said many times he likes Atlanta, and always wanted to start and end his career on the same team. But he's also said he wants a cup.

Beans, the Barker/Versteeg deal was only for a rental, Kovi would sign somewhere else in the off season. But Chicago is so close to the cap, that they need to ditch at least one, maybe two players this off season. Its inevitable. So this was proposed as a way to do that, and get a good, albeit short term, return.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  11:06:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 2106:
Heatley said he loved Ottawa and wanted to stay a year and a half ago.
Joe Thornton said he loved Boston and wanted to stay there his whole career.
Pronger said he loved Anaheim . . . and Edmonton.
etc etc

Give me recent quotes, or recent actions, THEN we'll talk about what Kovalchuk really wants!



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  13:34:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2106

Slozo, Kovi has said many times he likes Atlanta, and always wanted to start and end his career on the same team. But he's also said he wants a cup.

Beans, the Barker/Versteeg deal was only for a rental, Kovi would sign somewhere else in the off season. But Chicago is so close to the cap, that they need to ditch at least one, maybe two players this off season. Its inevitable. So this was proposed as a way to do that, and get a good, albeit short term, return.



If Chicago can pull this off wow. This would be a great trade for them. Even just for a rental. Because like you said they are already over the cap for next season. (over 60 millions) And they need to dump some salary, And this would be a great way to do it while going for the cup this year.

Could you imagine Kovalchuk in Chicago with Kane and Toews and Hossa?

I don't see Kovalchuk going anywhere but if Atlanta has no choice to trade him at the deadline this would one of the most possible scenario I heard.

I still say Kovalchuk resigns with Atlanta. (I said it in the predictions for the season topic) :)
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Guest2106
( )

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  14:44:46  Reply with Quote
Slozo, I've heard it a bunch, but for example the NBC article posted higher in this thread quotes Kovi stating he likes Atlanta.

And for the record, I'm well aware players say a lot of things just to appease the media, Kovi's comments could be an example, or they could be sincere, most likely its a combination of both.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  15:57:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's not so much that I believe he "loves" Atlanta. It's that Atlanta are one of the few teams, if not the only team, who will give him the cash he wants, the exact years he wants, & treat him like a King.

At the end of the day, Kovalchuk is going to want a fairly specific contract. Big money, certain number of years. And very few teams can do it. But Atlanta can, and he won't have to start over.

That's why I feel he'll stay in Atlanta. Not so much about him loving Atlanta more so than any other team, but the conditions behind it.

Irvine/prez.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2010 :  22:18:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, you think he'll want to stay because his only and primary reasoning is the length and size of his contract.

Well, I see Kovalchuk as a superstar with more needs than that. I think that he wants to win; and, I know for a fact that he is sick and tired of losing with a sad sack franchise that never should have been.And, I would think that, knowing a bit about the Russian superstar community, that . . . Kovie knows he has gotten the short end of the stick in terms of russian superstars on teams competing for the cup.

Ovechkin - Washington Caps, powerhouse team one of the top three contenders once again for the cup from the east
Semin - on aforementioned Caps team
Malkin - cup winner, on a powerhouse team
Datsyuk - on former cup winner and perrenial contender

Do you really think that Kovalchuk, who must realise that in terms of talent and value that he is at least very close to Malkin and Ovechkin, is happy that he has been a lifelong member of a team that has been in the playoffs once in his career? For four games?!?

If it was just one, two, three years . . . maybe. But 8 years? That's EIGHT LONG years, with just a quick 4 game appearance in the playoffs where they were overwhelmed. No team he was on could EVER have been considered a cup contender . . . just like this year, even though the Thrashers are within contention to make the playoffs this year, within 4 points of a spot.

So do you think Kovalchuk wants to stay in a backwater franchise with no sight of a team that might contend? I don't.

And that means, if I'm right, he's moving. Because, it's HIS decision.

If you were Kovalchuk - top 5, top 7 player - at the pinnacle of your career, a young millionaire who has lots of money already from your eight years in the NHL . . . if you were Kovalchuk, joking around with your Russian superstar buddies playing in the Olympics, wouldn't you be yearning to be in the same situation that any of them are in?

Would you be satisfied with a huge paycheque still . . . or would you yearn for more?

I contend that Kovie yearns for more, and he will want out of his backwater. He will try to get out of it the best way possible . . . diplomatically, not his decision, etc etc . . . but he wants out.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2010 :  00:26:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And at the end of the day, this is a job. Not a weekend hockey game.

Winning the Cup, although enjoyable, perhaps dreamed of by most, if not all players growing up, will not pay the bills at the end of the month.

These guys earn millions, but they spend just as much. Do I agree with you that Kovalchuk is likely sick of Atlanta's losing? I certainly do. But you have to also look at it from the job point of view.

Every one wants to win, not just the Russians. But we see Russians leaving the NHL more and more often, going to the KHL. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the pay increase they will see. Not to win.

At the end of the day, I believe that Kovalcuk stays in Atlanta. If Kovalchuk wants that franchise to succeed, he needs to be there. And I truly believe as much as Kovi wants to WIN, he wants to see Atlanta succeed. And in order for them to do so, he has to stay.

And yes, to answer your question, I do believe that his contract will be a big deciding factor as to where he signs. If it's not about the money at all (I'm not saying it entirely is), why not just take $1Mil and sign with Malkin in Pittsburgh. Try for a shot at the cup.



Irvine/prez.

Edited by - irvine on 01/10/2010 00:29:51
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2010 :  13:03:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Totally disagree with you about Russian players going to the KHL in order to make more money . . . players like Kovalchuk make more in north america with the huge endorsement deals, etc. No, the main reason I see those guys going back home is to be back in their own culture, be able to speak their own language, and enjoy an even more elevated star status.

Now, if Kovalchuk went to a hockey mad city with a large russian population in Canada, well, that'd be eating his cake and having it too.

Note that we haven't spoken about the possibility of Kovalchuk going to the KHL . . . but, it is a possibility, although I highly doubt he'd head there (maybe later in his career).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 01/10/2010 :  15:54:39  Reply with Quote
it definitely wont be vancouver thats for DAMN sure and im a canucks fan too.
he just doesnt seem like the "Mike Gillis" type player.
who knows who knows .. but i wouldnt bet on Kovalchuk to come to Vancity. last time we had a russian superstar in vancouver was mogilny if my memory serves right.
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Guest4721
( )

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  09:03:05  Reply with Quote
Leaf fans only hope of landing kovalchuk is that Chicago or some team trades for him as a rental for a cup run this season, and he goes UFA on July 1. Then, and only then, can you offer him the contract he's after (max cap hit, long duration). Before that time, Toronto is probably one of the worst teams in terms of trade bait.

ATL is going to look for a nice package of prospects/picks/established young players, and Toronto basically doesn't have any of the above except Kessel/Kadri and Kaberle (and even if toronto packaged all three ATL may decline)

If Kovalchuk wants to win cups, he will want to go to Was/Chicago. If he wants money and more spotlight (or better climate), he will go to a team like LA or NYR (the latter is not likely because of cap issues.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  09:48:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In terms of updates, from the Toronto Sun's Mike Zeisberger:

"With agent Jay Grossman reportedly in Atlanta over the weekend, the Ilya Kovalchuk contract talks were expected to resume. If discussions don't go well, don't be surprised if tires are kicked regarding potential trade possibilities. The Los Angeles Kings and Boston Bruins are among the teams said to be possibly interested."

Well, like we've been talking . . . crunch time will come soon if there is no contract extension or new deal soon. But Boston . . . yikes! Now that would be a scary team with Kovalchuk, and they'd finally have their sniper back from last year . . . and more! I sure hope that doesn't happen, speaking as a Leaf fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  11:04:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

In terms of updates, from the Toronto Sun's Mike Zeisberger:

"With agent Jay Grossman reportedly in Atlanta over the weekend, the Ilya Kovalchuk contract talks were expected to resume. If discussions don't go well, don't be surprised if tires are kicked regarding potential trade possibilities. The Los Angeles Kings and Boston Bruins are among the teams said to be possibly interested."

Well, like we've been talking . . . crunch time will come soon if there is no contract extension or new deal soon. But Boston . . . yikes! Now that would be a scary team with Kovalchuk, and they'd finally have their sniper back from last year . . . and more! I sure hope that doesn't happen, speaking as a Leaf fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Isn't Boston up against the Cap themselves and that is why the Kessel deal was done??? I mean sure, Kovalchuk is one of the top 3 goal scoring forwards in the world and getting your hands on him is huge. However, for that deal to Boston to happen, you would have to think that Chara is going the other way. I don't see the value any other way.

LA, on the other hand, has been pretty open about this dislike in Frolov's play this year so he won't be back. Further to that, they have the cash for the $10 million kind of money. If the deal can be made for Frolov, another roster player, and a 1st round pick, we might be in business.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5786 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  13:13:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, i couild see LA being in the mix for sure, as well as Chicago. However, they'd be totally different strategies to get him. Chicago would be a def rental (unless they could convince him to pull a "Hossa" and sign for cheap for a year) and LA would be lookng to lock him up to the long term contract that we assume he's after?

While thinking about the possibility of Chicago, that'd be a pretty sick rental player!!!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  04:46:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are right Beans - Boston is way up against the cap, as you said, it's why they had to get rid of their only real sniper (Kessel).

Unfortunately for me as a Leaf fan, however, they have lots of value to give back . . . not just Chara, who I would think they wouldn't deal. I speak of the maligned Olympian Bergeron, the young stalwart defenceman Wideman, dependable second liner Sturm, reclamation project Ryder.

And that's not to mention the guys who I think Boston would want to keep and are untouchables, as well as their youth: Savard, Lucic, Wheeler, Krejci and Hunwick.

I am not going to look into the specifics of what each player's salary is, but in terms of worth, if Boston were to realistically dangle Bergeron, Sturm and their first round pick next year from the Leafs . . . it would be mighty tempting.

The only thing against a deal like that is the fact that usually, Boston is only good at developing players then letting them leave, and they haven't traditionally sought high priced free agents, especially ones of Kovalchuk's magnitude.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4271
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Posted - 01/14/2010 :  01:44:18  Reply with Quote
As a Bruin fan, WOW, Kovi would look awesome with Savard as his set up guy. But, the Bruins do not give away huge salaries, ie. they would have kept Thorton..........would be what they need. As for the Leafs, cmon, if he wants to win a cup, he may have a better shot staying in Atlanta, they going to Toronto.
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Guest5940
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Posted - 01/16/2010 :  15:11:00  Reply with Quote
the oilers will get him if he doesn't stay in atlanta
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