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Gusteroni
Rookie



Canada
225 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  12:24:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
With Curtis Joseph announcing his retirement the question will be is he worthy of a HHOF nod? In the league 19 years and 4th overall with 454 regular season wins, 51 shutouts place him 20th overall, he won a gold in Salt Lake but he never won the Stanley Cup and he is tied with Gump Worsley for the most losses at 352. So is Cujo eligible as a HHOF candidate and explain why or why not?

Choices:

Yes, HHOF material
No, not enough accolades
Undecided

(Anonymous Vote)

HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  12:40:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The 4th overall wins is impressive, but most losses kinda takes away from it.

And he got the Gold in Salt Lake off of Marty Brodeurs effort.

I voted undecided, but the more I think about it, I'm starting to lean towards no.

The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
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Gusteroni
Rookie



Canada
225 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  12:51:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cujo did only play one game in Salt Lake and he lost, so I guess all he has as far is accolades are 3 All Star Games, a King Clancy Memorial Trophy and winning the Spengler Cup. I love Cujo but going by the usual criteria to get in the HHOF I have to say no otherwise there would be a lot more players in there.

"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season."
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  13:31:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No Vezina Trophies means that in all those 19 seasons he was never listed as the best in the game. That will hurt him.

He was very very good for a long long time, but never the best in the game. I think that will hurt him.

However, I see him in the same gunbarrel as a Grant Fuhr, only without the mittful of rings.

I can see it one day, maybe, but he is definately not a 1st ballot kind of pick.
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Guest9836
( )

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  13:48:06  Reply with Quote
This won't help Cujo's HHOF case but that one loss in Salt Lake indirectly helped the team win gold

I.e. they came third in group A because of the loss, and played 2nd place in group B (finland), if they had been 2nd they'd have played Russia in the quarters which I think was a tougher draw. Afterwards they played the winner of the #1A vs #4B which was Belarus. If they hadn't been on that side of the draw They would have had to play Russia and then the US (the Bronze and Silver medalists) before the Gold medal game.

So here's to you Cujo and your serendipitous loss of game 1 in 2002.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  15:38:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of my favorite goaltender of the last 20 years. Note, I did not say the best. Memories of the Dallas series where Edmonton played like crap but was carried on the shoulders of Cujo. One of my worst memories, realizing the NHL was a business, when the Leafs scooped up Cujo even though he was heads and tails the best Oiler. His relief playoff game for Kipper 2 years ago where he came into a losing cause cold and shocked the Sharks and ignited the Flames, for a game.

Not a hall of famer, but had some hall of fame memories. If he had the chance to play in New Jersey, instead of Brodeur for his career, I think the record book would have his name in there somewhere. Do think some of his career stats where hampered by injury's and poor teams in front of him.
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K73
Top Prospect



20 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  22:17:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One thing you have to look at is that while he's tied with Worsley for most losses, he has a much better record in nearly all other areas.

Worsley is in the Hall.

Cujo is by no means a first or even second year guy, but I do believe he should get in eventually.

Edited by - K73 on 01/12/2010 22:19:18
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  05:52:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think he should get in . . . like others have said, a very good goalie, always one of the best of his day, and very consistent - but never the best.

Is that bad luck having always played at the same time as Roy and Brodeur, two of the top goaltenders of all time? Perhaps . . . and that should be taken into consideration, for sure.

Maybe someone should look into how many times Cujo came in second or third in voting for the Vezina behind Roy and Brodeur . . . even then though, I can think of guys like Hasek who also stole the limelight.

No, let's leave the HHOF for the greatest players, and leave the very good ones out.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  08:03:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I don't think he should get in . . . like others have said, a very good goalie, always one of the best of his day, and very consistent - but never the best.

Is that bad luck having always played at the same time as Roy and Brodeur, two of the top goaltenders of all time? Perhaps . . . and that should be taken into consideration, for sure.

Maybe someone should look into how many times Cujo came in second or third in voting for the Vezina behind Roy and Brodeur . . . even then though, I can think of guys like Hasek who also stole the limelight.

No, let's leave the HHOF for the greatest players, and leave the very good ones out.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

I dont think Cujo should be in, but by saying only the Greatest players should get in, are you not one who thinks Gilmore should be inducted? How about Oates? Reonick? Guys who impacted our league but in their time were never considered the greatest.

My thoughts are these guys need to be recognized for there contributions and accomplishments. If Cujo is not in the Hall how do we recognize the fact he was probably a top 5 goalie in the league for a decade. 10 years from now how do we describe him to the generation which have never see him play. There has to be a way to recognize a stellar career without saying this player is the greatest of all time.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  08:41:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's look at it this way. Curtis Joseph and Chris Osgood have nearly identical stats with the exception that Joseph played longer. In fact, Osgood has a better win % and a better GAA.

Does Chris Osgood belong in the Hall?? Many don't think so, specifically because he has played on very good teams. But it's pretty hard to argue that a guy with better numbers and 3 Rings doesn't belong but Joseph does basically because of longevity.


No Hardware, No Stanley Cup Rings, a Gold medal as a back up playing in only on game.

That's not great in my opinion. Very good, but not Great.
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect



69 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  12:05:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted no.
Although he was "one of the top" goalies while he was playing, the ones that in the HHOF WERE at the TOP while they were playing.
He now has to be compared to the great ones in the Hall - not the ones he was playing against... so he's not even close.
Can you really picture him next to all the great ones in the HHOF - he doesn't really belong along side them.
It's not ALL about numbers as Gusteroni pluts it - it's also about how the goaltender's "greatness" allowed him or his team to WIN championships too.
He never stole a Cup or a Gold Medal on his own?
So I voted no.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  12:34:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by K73

One thing you have to look at is that while he's tied with Worsley for most losses, he has a much better record in nearly all other areas.

Worsley is in the Hall.

Cujo is by no means a first or even second year guy, but I do believe he should get in eventually.



Joseph may have some statistical advantages. Let's not forget that Worsley played for nearly 1/2 his career on a garbage team in New York.

Does Joseph have a Calder??
Does Joseph have a Vezina?
Does Joseph have 4 Stanley Cup Rings.
Does Joseph have a WHL MVP Award?
Was Joseph involved in the start of the NHLPA??
Was Joseph ever a 1st or 2nd team All Star??

I know Gump Worsley does!!!

Let's not get crazy here. Gump Worsley was a pioneer of the goaltender position, only wearing a mask in his final year, helping pave the way for the NHLPA, and all the while being the best or one of the top 3 goalies in the league for 22 years.

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  12:50:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While that answers the question of whos Gump Worsley, cant compare Osgood to Cujo. At no point in his career has Osgood been considered an Elite goalie or in the top 5. He has played for a team (Detroit) for the majority of his career which has been considered Elite or a top 5 team. I'm not taking away from Osgood stats or accomplishments but I would have a hard time finding another knowledgable fan who said Osgood in his prime played near the level of Cujo in his prime. If both played on the same team in there prime and its game 7 of the stanely cup finals who do I start? Plus Cujo was a starter during the wide open late 80`s hockey, so you cant compare career GAA. It`s like comparing Crosby to Gretzky. Cujo at points in his career would have been consider his team MVP never a title used when refering to Osgood. For the majority of Osgoods career he was a backup and for the Majority of Cujo career he was a starter.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/13/2010 12:53:45
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  16:33:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, you can bend it what ever way you want. Bottom line is that Osgood's numbers are very comparable to Joseph's and one has won the Stanley Cup.

Osgood started playing in the NHL in 1993. Joseph started in 4 seasons early. That is not like comparing Gretzky to Crosby. That's like comparing Gretzky to Lemieux and that happens every single day!

And Curtis Joseph played a grand total of 15 games in those High scoring 80's!!

Chris Osgood(not including this year) has averged 47 games/season.Chris Joseph, the bonified starter you say, has played in only 2 more games per season on average. Joseph's career high games played in a season is 71 while Osgood's is 67.

I have no problem with your opinion, as much as I may disagree with it. But if your are going to bring facts down the pipe, at least make sure they are accurate.

These two players are very comparable in just about every way. And I don't put either of them in the Hall without question.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  17:00:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Joshua, you can bend it what ever way you want. Bottom line is that Osgood's numbers are very comparable to Joseph's and one has won the Stanley Cup.

Osgood started playing in the NHL in 1993. Joseph started in 4 seasons early. That is not like comparing Gretzky to Crosby. That's like comparing Gretzky to Lemieux and that happens every single day!

And Curtis Joseph played a grand total of 15 games in those High scoring 80's!!

Chris Osgood(not including this year) has averged 47 games/season.Chris Joseph, the bonified starter you say, has played in only 2 more games per season on average. Joseph's career high games played in a season is 71 while Osgood's is 67.

I have no problem with your opinion, as much as I may disagree with it. But if your are going to bring facts down the pipe, at least make sure they are accurate.

These two players are very comparable in just about every way. And I don't put either of them in the Hall without question.


Your arguement is sound and I am not bashing the stats or results of Osgood, but the point I am trying to make which is Curtis Joseph was the better goaltender, if the 2 played head to head with comparible teams Cujo would be marginally better in there primes.

I was unaware of the average games played by Osgood and verified them. You are correct he played enough games to be mentioned in the same breath as Cujo statistically when analyzing games played, but how many times did Osgood benifit playing backup to a superstar goalie who went down to injury and was relied upon to play the games. Once the number 1 goalie returned Osgood was again religated to backup role.

I may have mis-qouted when quoting the 80`s games but clearly Cujo played 280 games for a weak defensive team in St Louis between 1989 and 1995. Osgood played 60 games prior to 1996 and only for one of the best defensive teams which pioneered the dead puck era.

A point you have never answered, Osgood was never his teams MVP where as Cujo was on several occasions. All I`m saying is Osgood has all star HOF type stats, but Cujo was the better goalie and in my opinion better candidate for the HOF, but neither is likely to be inducted. I think I know you already know this, but feel compelled to argue the point against.
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  02:21:21  Reply with Quote
sorry leaf fans not gonna happen. quote me on it.
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Guest5396
( )

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  05:49:19  Reply with Quote
Nowhere near the credentials, although in his hay day the Leafs were for the most part (except for a couple of years in the nineties) a sub par hockey team. Still though, it could be argued that some of the cup wins that the Devils had rested souley on the massive shoulders of Brodeur.
Cujo is not a first ballot HOF'er. Maybe in the future but still doubtful in my eyes.
Just my opinion.
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Guest9124
( )

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  08:55:59  Reply with Quote
He's definetely not a first ballot all-star...he might get in in a few years if theres a weaker pool for the HOF.....The analysts on TSN were saying Tom Barasso should be inducted before CuJo because of the hardware
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  10:04:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah, Josua, I was almost with you there for a second.

The Blues were a poor defensive team between 1989 and 1995?? Really?? They made the division finals 3 out of the 6 seasons. Never in that time were they near the bottom of the league in goals against. Normally average. They had the likes of Scott Stevens for a season, Quintal, Butcher, Cavallini, Jeff Brown, Phil Housley, and Steve Duschene.

Let's not act like Joseph was a one man army!!

However, I do completely agree that Joseph was a better goalie that Osgood. However, my point is that statistically as well as the measures of success in hockey(awards, Championships) Joseph doesn't have the stratch to be a HOF.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  10:23:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Ah, Josua, I was almost with you there for a second.

The Blues were a poor defensive team between 1989 and 1995?? Really?? They made the division finals 3 out of the 6 seasons. Never in that time were they near the bottom of the league in goals against. Normally average. They had the likes of Scott Stevens for a season, Quintal, Butcher, Cavallini, Jeff Brown, Phil Housley, and Steve Duschene.

Let's not act like Joseph was a one man army!!

However, I do completely agree that Joseph was a better goalie that Osgood. However, my point is that statistically as well as the measures of success in hockey(awards, Championships) Joseph doesn't have the stratch to be a HOF.

Goals against is a Goalie stat not a stat for the defense and actually proves my point. I dont believe Housley, Quintal or Duschene were notable shutdown guys and Stevens like you said was a one year player known more for his physical play. The remainder of the defense corp are unmemorable for me and I dont think bolster your point. I never suggested he was a one man army just the best player on his team a few years of his career, something Osgood has never been refered to as. Actually for the majority of Osgoods career he played as the 2nd best goaltender on his team who was steady during call up and injury substitution.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/14/2010 10:38:11
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  10:58:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alright Josua, let's call a spade a spade.

Overall goal against for a TEAM is definately a TEAM stat. The TEAM in the NHL that allows the fewest goals against is most commonly considered the best defensive TEAM. This is the number I was refering to.

And because you don't know these players does not mean they were not above average defensemen.

Furthermore, we have already established that Osgood and Joseph played literally the same number of games/season on average. So if you can't say that Osgood was a 2nd goalie or a call up or injury substituation when they played virtually the same number of games in a comparable period of time.

The only time Joseph was the best player on his team was a few season with the Oilers and a few seasons with the Leafs. Let's not forget about some of the other amazing talent he played with through his career, like Hull and Oates in St. Louis, Arnott, Guerin, and Weight in Edmonton, and Sundin in Toronto.

Even more proving to my point. Curtis Joseph played for those very similar Red Wings as Osgood did winning 50 of his 92 games. He also had a stellar 4-8 record in 13 playoff games for those Red Wings.

But one thing that Joseph couldn't do with those Red Wings that Osgood did was win the Cup.

Again, very comparable. Neither HOF worthy.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  11:52:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Alright Josua, let's call a spade a spade.

Overall goal against for a TEAM is definately a TEAM stat. The TEAM in the NHL that allows the fewest goals against is most commonly considered the best defensive TEAM. This is the number I was refering to.

And because you don't know these players does not mean they were not above average defensemen.

Furthermore, we have already established that Osgood and Joseph played literally the same number of games/season on average. So if you can't say that Osgood was a 2nd goalie or a call up or injury substituation when they played virtually the same number of games in a comparable period of time.

The only time Joseph was the best player on his team was a few season with the Oilers and a few seasons with the Leafs. Let's not forget about some of the other amazing talent he played with through his career, like Hull and Oates in St. Louis, Arnott, Guerin, and Weight in Edmonton, and Sundin in Toronto.

Even more proving to my point. Curtis Joseph played for those very similar Red Wings as Osgood did winning 50 of his 92 games. He also had a stellar 4-8 record in 13 playoff games for those Red Wings.

But one thing that Joseph couldn't do with those Red Wings that Osgood did was win the Cup.

Again, very comparable. Neither HOF worthy.

Touche, I avoided the Red Wings arguement because as you said Osgood got the Hardware. While playing on the same team Joseph was considered 1st to start, to my recollection.
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K73
Top Prospect



20 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2010 :  14:52:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/Demeanor-gives-Joseph-only-chance-for-Hall-011710

Food for thought.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2010 :  12:22:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Curtis Joseph's career playoff stats for Detroit 1.64 GAA, .931 save percentage. Record? 4-8. I think something else was lacking in those Detroit teams.

They only scored 6 goals in 4 games (including 4 OT's) against Anaheim in 03 yet everyone blamed Cujo for losing... where was Detroits offence? Giguere stoned the s*** out of them and you cant blame Cujo for that.

In 04 Cujo took the wings to the second round but a determined Flames team shut them down in 6, again I wouldnt blame cujo for that.

Curtis CARRIED the maple leafs to 2 conference finals appearances, without him they would have been lucky to escape the first round in any of the 4 years they made the playoffs with cujo. Edmonton was the same thing, he absolutley stole the series against Dallas in 97 (or was it 98...?)

I think joseph was the best goalie from his era aside from Brodeur and Roy, i watched him steal games for every team he played for up until the mid 2000's, his numbers may not be quite HOF but Ill tell you, he was a damn good goaltender. Still, the 4th most wins of all time is pretty impressive.

Id like to see cujo in because of my leaf bias, but I wouldnt be upset if he never does.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Guest0990
( )

Posted - 01/20/2010 :  14:29:29  Reply with Quote
In response to Matt_Roberts. I like Cujo but I submit to you: Hasek and Belfour. Cujo probably would probably be in the debate for the 5th best goalie of the 90's/early 00's
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2010 :  14:35:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe 5th. Let's not forget Richter and Barrasso played in that era as well.

With all due respect, if Cujo never played for TO and played his career with American teams, most people would say he doesn't belong in the Hall.

Leaf Fans, ya got your Blue Glasses on again. Some of ya anyway.
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Guest0990
( )

Posted - 01/20/2010 :  17:03:45  Reply with Quote
Here's another angle.

The HHOF has 35 goalies inducted. These players played from the 1910's to the 2000's that's an average of 3.5 players per decade. If it can be argued that Joseph is the 5th-7th best goalie of the Late 80's to early 00's than statistically he would likely not make the cut.

Roy, Brodeur, Hasek and likely Belfour will all be in the hall coming out of this period. Is there really a place for the 5th (if he is indeed that) best goalie from this period regardless of how well liked he is?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2010 :  11:26:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Maybe 5th. Let's not forget Richter and Barrasso played in that era as well.

With all due respect, if Cujo never played for TO and played his career with American teams, most people would say he doesn't belong in the Hall.

Leaf Fans, ya got your Blue Glasses on again. Some of ya anyway.

Cant agree with this statement. Cujo played the majority of his games for other teams. His most memorable season were in Edmonton in my opinion. He was highly sought after by Toronto because of his success in Edmonton. Most considered him a franchise goalie. After he left Toronto Detroit picked him up because they thought he was the best goalie available. If he is getting HOF consideration at all its because he was that damn good for a long time. I`d even say if he hadn`t gone to Pheonix for those last few years and played for a contender he probably would be given higher HOF consideration.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2010 :  13:32:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
at least i admiteed my blue tinted glasses were playing a role in how i felt, but still like i said i wont be upset if he never makes it.

Belfour and Hasek, how the hell did i forget those 2 haha.

Cujo is such a great guy and he was so awesome.... if he had a cup he would be in

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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