| Author |
 Topic  |
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2010 : 09:55:11
|
There was a thread recently about the Mid-season Hart Trophy 'winners' and since that thread came out I've been pondering my candidates for each team's respective MVPs.
Some teams were pretty obvious, some not so much, but I've got my list of MVPs (one per team) and I thought I'd share it here and see if anyone has different opinions.
ANA - Getzlaf
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kipper
CAR - E. Staal
CHI - Keith
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard
EDM - Penner
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Quick
MIN - Backstrom
MTL - Cammaleri
NSH - Weber
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Roloson
NYR - Lundqvist
OTT - Alfredsson
PHI - Carter
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Marleau
STL - Backes
TBL - St. Louis
TOR - Kaberle
VAN - Erhoff
WSH - Ovechkin
I watch a LOT of hockey but even I have had limited exposure to certain teams, like Columbus, LA, Minnesota, Ottawa, Philly, St. Louis, Toronto. So in those cases I looked at a number or factors including: Overall points, Season +/-, Number of time each player has been one of NHL.com's 3 stars, and in the case of Philly and Toronto I had a couple conversations with some die hard fans that I work with.
What are your thoughts?
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:28:35
|
I agree with most of your choices, if not they're at least debatable. But for Vancouver, Ehroff???? He's good but really him over Henrik Sedin, a guy who's leading the league in points and took the team on his shoulder when Daniel was injured?????
That's the only one that really shook me. |
 |
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 12:02:42
|
I wouldn't say that Henrik really took the team on his shoulders. yes his points total is impressive, but it wasn't a solo effort. He was only OK when Daniel was hurt and didn't really turn into a points guy until Daniel came back. They need each other to be at their best.
Therefore Henrik lost team MVP because he's not one guy, if that makes any sense. I'm looking for great solo effort and 1/2 a tandem doesn't fit my bill.
I take Erhoff because of his impressive +/- totals and the smart play I see from him on the ice.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 12:46:51
|
Here is the original listby HawkinOilCountry and my adjustmets, if any.
To clarify, my definition of the MVP is not always the best player. It is the player with the largest impact on the team where as if you took that player off the team, there would be a noticable difference in their success.
ANA - Getzlaf
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara(Rask, takes over #1 from last years Vezina Winner)
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kipper
CAR - E. Staal
CHI - Keith(Hossa-They got better when he hit the line up)
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard(Might be the lack of Datsyuk more than Howard)
EDM - Penner
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Quick
MIN - Backstrom
MTL - Cammaleri(Markov, hands down. Crap team without him)
NSH - Weber(Barry Trotz-Best Coach in the NHL)
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Roloson
NYR - Lundqvist(Gaborik. No scoring no wins)
OTT - Alfredsson
PHI - Carter
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Marleau
STL - Backes
TBL - St. Louis
TOR - Kaberle
VAN - Erhoff(Without Luongo, this team is barely in the Playoffs) |
|
|
|
50brent
Top Prospect
Canada
62 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 13:40:12
|
| agree with most of these pick sbut one just really stands out for me and that is the minnesota pick , i belive that koivu is the mvp not backstrom koivu has really stepped up for his team a lot more than backstrom has. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 17:41:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here is the original listby HawkinOilCountry and my adjustmets, if any.
To clarify, my definition of the MVP is not always the best player. It is the player with the largest impact on the team where as if you took that player off the team, there would be a noticable difference in their success.
ANA - Getzlaf
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara(Rask, takes over #1 from last years Vezina Winner)
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kipper
CAR - E. Staal
CHI - Keith(Hossa-They got better when he hit the line up)
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard(Might be the lack of Datsyuk more than Howard)
EDM - Penner
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Quick
MIN - Backstrom
MTL - Cammaleri(Markov, hands down. Crap team without him)
NSH - Weber(Barry Trotz-Best Coach in the NHL)
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Roloson
NYR - Lundqvist(Gaborik. No scoring no wins)
OTT - Alfredsson
PHI - Carter
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Marleau
STL - Backes
TBL - St. Louis
TOR - Kaberle
VAN - Erhoff(Without Luongo, this team is barely in the Playoffs)
Markov,., Beano im a habs fan and i watch every game and woah woah woah,,, sure,, we are a better team with Andrei but we were a 500 8th place team without him and thats what we are with him,, this is nowhere near a crap team with or without Markov and Camalleri is most deffinetly the MVP without a second thought look at what he has done brining Thomas Plekanec back from the dead and while markov was gone Cammaleri basicly carrried the team to every victory there is no chance no way and no how it is anyone but Mike Cammaleri the habs MVP
Pasty |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 17:54:33
|
Well, there are a few very tough ones to pick, and teams like Minnesota and Nashville come to mind there (I strongy disagree with the Weber pick).
I'll just list the ones that I disagree with, and take ot for granted that I agree with all the teams that are left out. BTW, as a Toronto fan, it would have to be Kaberle, that pick would be correct . . . but White is a close, unheralded second.
Bos - Real tough to pick, and Chara is the easy choice . . . but maybe not the right one. It's not by much, but I'll go off the grid with Marco Sturm. Without this guy, no one is in sight of getting 30 goals this year, and he's been the best scoring option this year after the departure of you know who. Sad to say for this solid second liner and reliable 25 goal man, but there it is.
Calgary - Iginla. Kipper was terrible real early, and has redeemed himself . . . but he hasn't been stealing games either (see: many games lost by one goal). Without Iginla, they'd be out of the playoffs.
LAK - tough one, myself I'd say Kopitar, but haven't watched a lot of them
Nashville - Pekka Rinne, best goaltender this year no one's heard of.
NYI - I'd go with Streit here, but it could be argued that Tavares has really started to change the whole complexion of the team.
NYR - Gaborik, of course! Lundqvist was average to start with - he's gotten better, but this team would be absolutely nowhere without the man called Marian.
PHI - yeah, Carter has picked it up recently, but I'd have to go with Pronger here - he has made a big impact, and it looks like he's finally taking over leadership of this team.
SanJose - the only team where I can pick out three or four team mvp's and know that they would still be a great team without that guy. You picked Marleau, but one could easily pick Thornton, Nabakov, Boyle, even Heatley.
TB - St.Louis is s solid pick, but I'd go Stamkos: what a breakout season he's had, and without his scoring prowess, they'd be stuck.
Van - Henrik Sedin. He did it without his brother too, which you don't seem to recall . . . and his scoring is way up.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 00:00:27
|
I like this idea. With that being said I'm going to do the same as Beans here.
ANA - Getzlaf
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara Bergeron
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kipper Iggy
CAR - E. Staal
CHI - Keith
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard
EDM - Penner <--- I'll agree based on active players but Hemsky is the MVP, if had of stayed healthy he would have my vote and based on their record since it makes sense
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Quick Kopitar
MIN - Backstrom
MTL - Cammalleri Markov
NSH - Weber
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Roloson Streit
NYR - Lundqvist Gabby
OTT - Alfredsson Fisher
PHI - Carter Pronger
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Marleau Thornton
STL - Backes Oshie
TBL - St. Louis
TOR - Kaberle
VAN - Erhoff Henrik
WSH - Ovechkin |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 15:24:55
|
Here it is.
Anaheim - Ryan Getzlaf
Atlanta - Ilya Kovalchuk
Boston - Zdeno Chara
Buffalo - Ryan Miller
Calgary - Jarome Iginla
Carolina - Eric Staal
Chicago - Duncan Keith
Colorado - Craig Anderson
Columbus - Rick Nash
Dallas - Brad Richards
Detroit - Nicklas Lidstrom
Edmonton - Dustin Penner
Florida - Tomas Vokoun
Los Angeles - Anze Kopitar
Minnesota - Mikko Koivu
Montreal - Mike Cammalleri
Nashville - Jean-Pierre Dumont
New Jersey - Martin Brodeur
New York I - Dwayne Roloson
New York R - Marian Gaborik
Ottawa - Daniel Alfredsson
Philadelphia - Chris Pronger
Phoenix - Ilya Bryzgalov
Pittsburgh - Sidney Crosby
San Jose - Joe Thornton
Saint Louis - Erik Johnson
Tampa Bay - Steven Stamkos
Toronto - Tomas Kaberle
Vancouver - Henrik Sedin
Washington - Alexander Ovechkin |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 17:17:37
|
I agree with most of the ones which have been debated here except for Vancouver. If it's not Henrik, it's no one! I don't have the stats in front of me but anyone who thinks he didn't produce without his bro is wrong. Yes, he's picked it up more since Daniel's return, but he was still impressive (including scoring goals) while his bro was out. Luongo would be the easy second choice and as good as he's been, Erhoff isn't even in the conversation as far as MVP goes imo.
Montreal's a very tough one, i'd prob lean towards Cammalleri but Markov is obviously a good choice as well.
As a big fan of Weber in Nashville, one who's pegged him for Team Canada since day 1, i find myself disappointed in him thus far. I don't see a ton of Nashville games but for a guy who's supposed to provide offense from the back end, his numbers are down as far as projected totals go. I too would take Rinne. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 17:45:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
I agree with most of the ones which have been debated here except for Vancouver. If it's not Henrik, it's no one! I don't have the stats in front of me but anyone who thinks he didn't produce without his bro is wrong. Yes, he's picked it up more since Daniel's return, but he was still impressive (including scoring goals) while his bro was out. Luongo would be the easy second choice and as good as he's been, Erhoff isn't even in the conversation as far as MVP goes imo.
Montreal's a very tough one, i'd prob lean towards Cammalleri but Markov is obviously a good choice as well.
As a big fan of Weber in Nashville, one who's pegged him for Team Canada since day 1, i find myself disappointed in him thus far. I don't see a ton of Nashville games but for a guy who's supposed to provide offense from the back end, his numbers are down as far as projected totals go. I too would take Rinne.
NO Markov is a horrible choice! Look i love Markov hes a top 5 Puck moving d man in the league his talent is rare and special and he was our last years MVP forsure but how can you say a guy who has played 20 games or so and has not signifigantly changed the course or this teams season? the habs are exactly where they were with Markov as without, a 500 team battling for that 8th spot, Cammalleri has been the firecracker on this team all year even when he s not getting the pucks to the back of the net he is pouring them on the goalie and playing as hard as he can each shift maybe by the end of the year our mvp is Markov but hes not even in contention right now he has done nothing due to injury and since coming back he has not changed the course of this team!
Pasty |
|
|
|
Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 18:16:21
|
CHI Toews instead of Kieth
DET Datsyuk instead of Howard
LAK Doughty instead of Quick
MIN Koivu instead of Backstrom
NYR Gaborik instead of Lundqvist
SJS Thornton instead of Marleau
TBL Stamkos instead of St. Louis
VAN H. Sedin instead of Erhoff
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 19:04:43
|
ANA - Getzlaf
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kippursoff
CAR - Staal
CHI - Patrick Kane
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard
EDM - Penner
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Ryan Smyth was until injured. Now, Quick.
MIN - Backstrom is why they win
MTL - Markov gives them the edge when healthy
NSH - Pekka Rinne
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Okposo
NYR - Gaborik gets them wins
OTT - Elliott
PHI - Chris Pronger
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Marleau
STL - Backes
TBL - St. Louis
TOR - Kaberle
VAN - Henrik Sedin
WSH - Ovechkin
Irvine/prez. |
Edited by - irvine on 01/26/2010 15:31:34 |
|
|
|
sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 19:32:22
|
i agree with irvine here that smyth was the MVP for the kings. That first line of smyth, kopitar and williams was unreal for the first month or so. but once smyth went down, williams and kopitars production went down, most noticabley kopitars. I think when smyth is in the lineup, he is the mvp of this team, but quick or doughty would b good picks as well
|
|
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 20:53:08
|
Chelios Haha
Good pick Irvine
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2010 : 22:12:06
|
Ok, let's look at this Montreal with and without Markov.
Without Markov in the line up
35 Games - 14 wins, 18 losses, 3 OTL for a total of 31 points and a win % of .400. Goals for 86 (2.45/game), Goals against 100(2.85/game)
With Markov in the line up
18 Games - 11 wins, 5 loses, 2 OTL for a total of 24 points and a win % of .611. Goals for 49(2.72/game), goals against 37(2.05/game)
Please show me where Montreal does not improve?? With Markov in the line up, Montreal is a far better team in literally all areas. If Montreal has Markov is the line up all season, and performed the way they have in the 18 games he has played, they have 70ish points, are 2nd in the East, and 4th overall today.
Although I respect your choice of Cammalleri( and respectfully disagree), to say Markov is a horrible choice is just ill informed and inaccurate. |
|
|
|
Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 00:02:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, let's look at this Montreal with and without Markov.
Without Markov in the line up
35 Games - 14 wins, 18 losses, 3 OTL for a total of 31 points and a win % of .400. Goals for 86 (2.45/game), Goals against 100(2.85/game)
With Markov in the line up
18 Games - 11 wins, 5 loses, 2 OTL for a total of 24 points and a win % of .611. Goals for 49(2.72/game), goals against 37(2.05/game)
Please show me where Montreal does not improve?? With Markov in the line up, Montreal is a far better team in literally all areas. If Montreal has Markov is the line up all season, and performed the way they have in the 18 games he has played, they have 70ish points, are 2nd in the East, and 4th overall today.
Although I respect your choice of Cammalleri( and respectfully disagree), to say Markov is a horrible choice is just ill informed and inaccurate.
Thankyou, I was just about to bust out the stats for an arguement but you have saved me alot of time.
Also to go along with the stats, I am finally not so scared when the other team gets the puck. Even when he is not on the ice, I know that now the D pairings are reasonable and not just throwing in pre-mature prospects and AHL veterens. Anyone who watched Habs games all year can easily notice a change in their game since Markov has been back.
Oh and this has nothing against the pick of Cams, love the guy, just that saying Markov is a bad pick is obsurd. |
Edited by - Axey on 01/26/2010 00:03:27 |
|
|
|
Guest9946
( )
|
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 07:26:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, let's look at this Montreal with and without Markov.
Without Markov in the line up
35 Games - 14 wins, 18 losses, 3 OTL for a total of 31 points and a win % of .400. Goals for 86 (2.45/game), Goals against 100(2.85/game)
With Markov in the line up
18 Games - 11 wins, 5 loses, 2 OTL for a total of 24 points and a win % of .611. Goals for 49(2.72/game), goals against 37(2.05/game)
Please show me where Montreal does not improve?? With Markov in the line up, Montreal is a far better team in literally all areas. If Montreal has Markov is the line up all season, and performed the way they have in the 18 games he has played, they have 70ish points, are 2nd in the East, and 4th overall today.
Although I respect your choice of Cammalleri( and respectfully disagree), to say Markov is a horrible choice is just ill informed and inaccurate.
so we just hand the mvp to a guy who has played 18 games,, no sir that does not fly,,,, of course we are doing better with him back he is an amazing player who has played 18 games it cannot be him no way no how i dont buy it he is a terrible choice |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 07:32:44
|
| We aren't handing anytihng to anyone. Geez. All I am saying is that is it clear that Montreal is a significantly better team with Markov in the line up compared to without. My opinion on MVP is the player on the team that makes the most impact. To me that is Markov, even if he has played in just 18 games. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 07:52:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
We aren't handing anytihng to anyone. Geez. All I am saying is that is it clear that Montreal is a significantly better team with Markov in the line up compared to without. My opinion on MVP is the player on the team that makes the most impact. To me that is Markov, even if he has played in just 18 games.
in 18 games there is no way he has made more of an impact than a player with 6 gwg 26 goales a + 12 rateing and 45 + points in 50 games, not a chance
Pasty |
|
|
|
Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:17:17
|
Id pick Kessel before Kaberle in Toronto.
The leafs had 1 win until he stepped into the lineup, in november....
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:18:02
|
Beans and Axey - I agree that 18 games out of 50 (or 53) is just too small a sampling to be MVP . . . save Markov for the second half/season mvp.
Pittsburgh has an incredible record with Gonchar, and without, they're close to .500 . . . with a 38 game sampling, it could be argued that Pittsburgh's unheralded mvp is Gonchar, not Sid the Kid.
Sensfan - you have got be on glue to pick Datsyuk for mvp in the first half for Detroit. Datsyuk has had a terrible year for him, and is on pace for his lowest ppg average since his rookie season as the top star playing on the first line. The only teams that have their top point with lower numbers than Datsyuk are Phoenix, Boston, the Isles and the Preds. You cannot stretch your imigination and call that being the first half mvp . . . and with the top stars of Detroit somewhat absent (Datsyuk, Zetterberg and an older Lidstrom), with Detroit having the lowest goals scored in the western conference, and with all the injuries . . . you'd have to think that the goalie Howard is the reason they have fought their way into 8th. That, and some blue chip efforts from Bertuzzi and the other second/third liners.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:56:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
We aren't handing anytihng to anyone. Geez. All I am saying is that is it clear that Montreal is a significantly better team with Markov in the line up compared to without. My opinion on MVP is the player on the team that makes the most impact. To me that is Markov, even if he has played in just 18 games.
in 18 games there is no way he has made more of an impact than a player with 6 gwg 26 goales a + 12 rateing and 45 + points in 50 games, not a chance
Pasty
First off, get the stats right. Cammalleri is+10 not +12, 4 GWG not 6, and 46 pts in 53 games.
Now, let's look at Markov's number if he was to play in the same 53 games Cammalleri has.
53 games, 9 goals, 35 asssits, 44 point, +9, 9 PPG, 3 GWG.
Oh, let's also consider that Markov is paid to be a defensemen while Cammalleri is paid to put up points.
Please explain to me how Montreal has 24 points in the 18 games Markov played and only 31 points(5 more) in the 35 games he missed????
Montreal is outscored (on average) in the 35 games Markov missed and outscored their opponents with him in the line up??
Montreal loses 60% of the the games that Markov missed and win's 60% of the games when he plays.
Montreal did not win with just Cammellari in the line up. Markov made the team win.
Cammalleri not even the leaging point getter for the team???
Slozo, why is 40% of the games not a big enough sample when all the numbers show that Montreal is a significantly worst team without Markov in the line up?? He would be my 1st and 2nd half MVP, simply based on the huge impact of those games. 11 wins in the 18 games Markov played vs 14 wins in the 35 games he didn't play. That's HUGE. Take him out of those 18 games and Montreal has 4-5 fewer wins and is sitting just slightly ahead of TO looking at a lottery pick. Instead, they are in a playoff position and still climbing.
My opinion is that a teams MVP is their most impactful player. They make the biggest difference when the play vs when they don't. Most often we have to make assumptions on a team and what they would do when their MVP is missing. In this case, we don't have to assume. Montreal, in all statistical measures, is a better team with Markov in the line up than without him.
Markov = Montreal's Most Valueable Player |
|
|
|
Guest2791
( )
|
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 11:00:06
|
| As good as Gaborik has been this season for the most part, i have to agree with the original poster, Henrik Lundqvist has been the Rangers MVP so far this season without question. |
|
|
|
nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 11:21:27
|
I'm not going to select my MVPs for every team, because I don't watch the other teams enough to research my answer. But, I will say this about Nashville. Wihout Patrick Hornqvist, they would not be where they are at the moment. Weber is having a pretty decent season and Rinne has been OK, but there's a reason he's splitting time with Ellis as the starter. Hornqvist has 20 goals this season though, which leads the team and he's also tied for the team lead in points with 32. He's also a team best +12 and has scored clutch goals when needed. He has been the Predators MVP.
Colin Wilson- The future |
|
|
|
Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 14:20:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
I'm not going to select my MVPs for every team, because I don't watch the other teams enough to research my answer. But, I will say this about Nashville. Wihout Patrick Hornqvist, they would not be where they are at the moment. Weber is having a pretty decent season and Rinne has been OK, but there's a reason he's splitting time with Ellis as the starter. Hornqvist has 20 goals this season though, which leads the team and he's also tied for the team lead in points with 32. He's also a team best +12 and has scored clutch goals when needed. He has been the Predators MVP.
Colin Wilson- The future
Although I didn't pick him I definitely agree with this decision, Hornqvist has been an integral apart of Nashville this year. He almost was a waiver wire pick-up in my pool until someone raced me. He has really picked it up this year, Nashville always seems to find a way to pick it up. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 15:31:08
|
hahaha. I was reading an article on Chelios' DUI. I meant Pronger. lol. Ah well. :P Chelios could be their MVP if he signed. Who knows? ;P
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 16:16:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
We aren't handing anytihng to anyone. Geez. All I am saying is that is it clear that Montreal is a significantly better team with Markov in the line up compared to without. My opinion on MVP is the player on the team that makes the most impact. To me that is Markov, even if he has played in just 18 games.
in 18 games there is no way he has made more of an impact than a player with 6 gwg 26 goales a + 12 rateing and 45 + points in 50 games, not a chance
Pasty
First off, get the stats right. Cammalleri is+10 not +12, 4 GWG not 6, and 46 pts in 53 games.
Now, let's look at Markov's number if he was to play in the same 53 games Cammalleri has.
53 games, 9 goals, 35 asssits, 44 point, +9, 9 PPG, 3 GWG.
Oh, let's also consider that Markov is paid to be a defensemen while Cammalleri is paid to put up points.
Please explain to me how Montreal has 24 points in the 18 games Markov played and only 31 points(5 more) in the 35 games he missed????
Montreal is outscored (on average) in the 35 games Markov missed and outscored their opponents with him in the line up??
Montreal loses 60% of the the games that Markov missed and win's 60% of the games when he plays.
Montreal did not win with just Cammellari in the line up. Markov made the team win.
Cammalleri not even the leaging point getter for the team???
Slozo, why is 40% of the games not a big enough sample when all the numbers show that Montreal is a significantly worst team without Markov in the line up?? He would be my 1st and 2nd half MVP, simply based on the huge impact of those games. 11 wins in the 18 games Markov played vs 14 wins in the 35 games he didn't play. That's HUGE. Take him out of those 18 games and Montreal has 4-5 fewer wins and is sitting just slightly ahead of TO looking at a lottery pick. Instead, they are in a playoff position and still climbing.
My opinion is that a teams MVP is their most impactful player. They make the biggest difference when the play vs when they don't. Most often we have to make assumptions on a team and what they would do when their MVP is missing. In this case, we don't have to assume. Montreal, in all statistical measures, is a better team with Markov in the line up than without him.
Markov = Montreal's Most Valueable Player
really i cant even be botherd to read the rest of this comment whatever you say beano
Pasty |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 22:11:16
|
Nice arguement. Way to come back with something tangible and intelligent.
Take your ball and go home if you don't want to play any more. |
|
|
|
Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2010 : 23:20:11
|
ANA - Bobby Ryan (Just felt like being different)
ATL - Kovalchuk
BOS - Chara
BUF - Miller
CAL - Kipper
CAR - E. Staal
CHI - (Can I pick the whole team? Seriously almost impossible to single out one player.) Keith i guess??
COL - Anderson
CBJ - Nash
DAL - B. Richards
DET - Howard
EDM - Khabibulin. (Why do you think this team is going down the drain so badly? Its not Hemsky).
FLA - Vokoun
LAK - Smyth
MIN - Backstrom
MTL - Benoit Pouliet ( Haha i know, fringe pick. But seriously, guy is doing unreal and thats when they started to turn it around)
NSH - Hornquist. Where did this guy come from?
NJD - Brodeur
NYI - Matt Moulson. Where did this guy come from?? Him and Hornquist go to the same summer camp?
NYR - Lundqvist
OTT - Alfredsson
PHI - Pronger
PHX - Bryzgalov
PIT - Crosby
SJS - Big Joe
STL - TJ Oshie (Personal, love seeing this kid play)
TBL - Stamkos
TOR - The goal posts. (seriously, they stop more pucks than the goaltenders)
VAN - Luongo (Yes yes Sedin sister whatever)
WSH - Ovechkin
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 04:18:18
|
Pasty and Beans both your arguments are good. But you're just having a different definition of the team MVP. Pasty is talking about the guy who brought the most to the team since october. Therefore Markov is out because he didn't play enough games. And Beans is saying that Markov is the go to guy in Montreal.
And you're both right, the team MVP is Markov, but if you go by the topic that hawkinoilcountry suggested. He wanted to know who do you think would be the MVP for the first half of the season. And Cammalleri brought more to the table because he was held off the injury list. Markov was out for 2 and a half months.
Somebody who only plays for the last 30 games of the season couldn't win the Hart, and I think this is the argument Pasty is using. So in this case Markov is not the team MVP in the first half. But if you're looking at RIGHT NOW who's Montreal player that they couldn't afford losing, Markov would be the man. |
|
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 06:24:59
|
I am lovin' the Montreal debate! Yea I took Cammaleri, but Markov is a great pick too! No one can deny the impact he's had in the few games he's played.
As to Vancouver I'll rescind my Erhoff pick for Luongo. I still won't consider Henrik the MVP because when Daniel was hurt, Henrik wasn't scoring goals. He went 3 weeks without lighting the lamp (guesstimate not fact, based off something I heard someone on TSN say). Sure he got assists, but it wasn't anything major at the time.
I sincerely doubt anyone would have called Henrik MVP while Daniel was out, just a good top line forward. I'm not going to deny that Henrik has been a major player for the 'Nucks. I will say that we wouldn't be talking about Henrik if he didn't have Daniel to play with.
These guys are the most dynamic duo in the entire league, and Vancouver must be loving that they've started producing huge numbers. But again I'm looking for a SOLO effort.
This team lives and dies by Luongo, they can't win if he's having an off night. I still find Erhoff's play impressive, but not game defining.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
Edited by - HawkinOilCountry on 01/27/2010 06:27:37 |
|
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 06:29:40
|
And I also kind of agree with Beans' Nashville MVP 
Trotz for President!
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
|
|
|
Guest4762
( )
|
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 06:31:04
|
St. Louis' best player is Johnson, not Oshie or Backes. If Oshie was so great, wouldn't he make team USA? And TBL are nothing without Stamkos, St. Louis was on the team last year and they were bottom-basement dwellers. If anything Lecalvalier is worse than ever, yet the team is in the playoff hunt because of the Stamkos/Malone chemistry.
Under the backwards logic of this thread, Gonchar is the clear MVP of Pittsburgh, by the way. You guys may want to think that through. I don't dispute Markov as being MTL's best player- he has been for a while. But if they lost every game while he was gone, they'd be nowhere near the playoffs.
The only thing that kept MTL afloat this year was the stellar play of Plakanec (who sets up Cammalleri more often than not). This guy is also their best penalty killer, faceoff man and playmaker. If Markov scores 2 goals a game and they win out the rest of the season, I'll change my mind, until then, Plekanec is MTL's mvp. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 06:41:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nice arguement. Way to come back with something tangible and intelligent.
Take your ball and go home if you don't want to play any more.
ever think when markov came back the team stats improved dramaticly maybe because at the same time O byrn Gill Gomez Gionta Serigei Kostitsyn Mara all returned? and sure spitt out stats comparing the habs with markov and without ,, if Cammalleri gets hurt is the only way i could do the same or refute that, then again there would probably some stat somewhere u'd dig up to support whatever opinion you develop,,, the fact is The habs were in 8th without Markov and with Markov and that there is no way a player who has played 18 games has had more of an impact than a player with Cammalleri's stats or Plekance's stats and for all intents and purposes Hamirlik has been more of an mvp this year than Markov with the boat loads of ice time blocking shots, power play filling in for an INJURED Markov
Pasty |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 07:05:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinOilCountry
I am lovin' the Montreal debate! Yea I took Cammaleri, but Markov is a great pick too! No one can deny the impact he's had in the few games he's played.
As to Vancouver I'll rescind my Erhoff pick for Luongo. I still won't consider Henrik the MVP because when Daniel was hurt, Henrik wasn't scoring goals. He went 3 weeks without lighting the lamp (guesstimate not fact, based off something I heard someone on TSN say). Sure he got assists, but it wasn't anything major at the time.
I sincerely doubt anyone would have called Henrik MVP while Daniel was out, just a good top line forward. I'm not going to deny that Henrik has been a major player for the 'Nucks. I will say that we wouldn't be talking about Henrik if he didn't have Daniel to play with.
These guys are the most dynamic duo in the entire league, and Vancouver must be loving that they've started producing huge numbers. But again I'm looking for a SOLO effort.
This team lives and dies by Luongo, they can't win if he's having an off night. I still find Erhoff's play impressive, but not game defining.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
Not enough time to check but I'm pretty sure Henrik was scoring goals when Daniel got hurt. He was scoring more often then any other period of time in his career. He was also racking up points. Sure it help when Daniel came back, but Henrik played great for the whole season with or without Daniel.
Now Luongo is a different thing, we could debate on this, because Luongo is the heart and soul of the team. Henrik is just having a fantastic season so far. |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 07:05:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4762
St. Louis' best player is Johnson, not Oshie or Backes. If Oshie was so great, wouldn't he make team USA? And TBL are nothing without Stamkos, St. Louis was on the team last year and they were bottom-basement dwellers. If anything Lecalvalier is worse than ever, yet the team is in the playoff hunt because of the Stamkos/Malone chemistry.
Under the backwards logic of this thread, Gonchar is the clear MVP of Pittsburgh, by the way. You guys may want to think that through. I don't dispute Markov as being MTL's best player- he has been for a while. But if they lost every game while he was gone, they'd be nowhere near the playoffs.
The only thing that kept MTL afloat this year was the stellar play of Plakanec (who sets up Cammalleri more often than not). This guy is also their best penalty killer, faceoff man and playmaker. If Markov scores 2 goals a game and they win out the rest of the season, I'll change my mind, until then, Plekanec is MTL's mvp.
Yes Erik Johnson exaclty the guy I picked. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 08:12:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nice arguement. Way to come back with something tangible and intelligent.
Take your ball and go home if you don't want to play any more.
ever think when markov came back the team stats improved dramaticly maybe because at the same time O byrn Gill Gomez Gionta Serigei Kostitsyn Mara all returned? and sure spitt out stats comparing the habs with markov and without ,, if Cammalleri gets hurt is the only way i could do the same or refute that, then again there would probably some stat somewhere u'd dig up to support whatever opinion you develop,,, the fact is The habs were in 8th without Markov and with Markov and that there is no way a player who has played 18 games has had more of an impact than a player with Cammalleri's stats or Plekance's stats and for all intents and purposes Hamirlik has been more of an mvp this year than Markov with the boat loads of ice time blocking shots, power play filling in for an INJURED Markov
Pasty
I don;t dig up stats. They are right there for everyone to see. And you might be right. It might be a combinations of various players coming back. And you can say what you want about Cammalleri's scoring. The bottom line is that alone, that scoring was not enough to win. And your are dead right again that to tell for certain, Camalleri would have to be out of the line up for a reasonable amount of time to see what Montreal's performance would be.
But I think it's about impossible to argue 24 out of a potential 36 points with Markov is significantly better than the 31 out of a potential 70 points without Markov.
And at the end of the day, one could also look at the improvement in Montreal's play could also be attributed to Halak getting the load over Price.
Ultimately, I do respect your choice for Cammalleri as I have said before. My entire point was that Markov is FAR from a horrible pick as the Montreal MVP. |
|
|
|
Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 20:26:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4762
St. Louis' best player is Johnson, not Oshie or Backes. If Oshie was so great, wouldn't he make team USA? And TBL are nothing without Stamkos, St. Louis was on the team last year and they were bottom-basement dwellers. If anything Lecalvalier is worse than ever, yet the team is in the playoff hunt because of the Stamkos/Malone chemistry.
Under the backwards logic of this thread, Gonchar is the clear MVP of Pittsburgh, by the way. You guys may want to think that through. I don't dispute Markov as being MTL's best player- he has been for a while. But if they lost every game while he was gone, they'd be nowhere near the playoffs.
The only thing that kept MTL afloat this year was the stellar play of Plakanec (who sets up Cammalleri more often than not). This guy is also their best penalty killer, faceoff man and playmaker. If Markov scores 2 goals a game and they win out the rest of the season, I'll change my mind, until then, Plekanec is MTL's mvp.
Yes Erik Johnson exaclty the guy I picked.
Have you watched any St. Louis games this year? Sure Johnson is a solid pick, but head and shoulders over Oshie? I disagree. Watch the guy play, sure he isn't an offensive monster yet (notice I said YET), but right now he has all of the other neccessities in his game and down pat.
The guy almost single handedly kills off penalties himself, has his defensive game down, is a heart and soul kind of guy and gets some points to go along with it. Next year will be Oshie's year once Kariya and/or McDonald are gone or in a deminshed role. I figure at least one will be gone during or after this year.
Now you say why did Oshie not get picked for the olympic team? Or we could ask why did Drury make it? Some GM's have their preference and opinion, also Burkie wanted a certain look to his team and Oshie apparently didn't fit into the mix. With the being said how many times did Burke actually get a look at the guy?
Yes, you can say but Johnson made it. Johnson is the future, and the now. Simple. The guy was picked 1st overall, everyone knows about him and his capabilities. Also there isn't as much depth on the D, but in no way is the Oshie pick related to the Johnson pick. Once again you do have your opinion, and Johnson is a solid pick (I have him in my pool) but if you watched games this year you would know.
Also I do like your pick of Plekanec, he is certainly in the mix for the MVP. Imagine if the guy was having the same year as last year? Who knows where the Habs would be, probably playing 'Hall' Bingo. Pouliot is more of a heating up at the right time kind of guy, I don't expect his production to keep up as much as I want to so expect as decrease soon enough. Halak has a worthy nod as well, his record and stats speak for itself. |
Edited by - Axey on 01/27/2010 20:28:41 |
|
|
|
Thrasher17
Top Prospect
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 21:28:40
|
I've seen this point being thrown around and didn't see anyone produce the stat so i thought i'd look it up. Henrik Sedin had 10 goals and 8 assists for 18 points in 18 games while Daniel was out of the lineup. Not too bad considering there isn't too much secondary scoring in Vancouver. And I think it's safe to say that any star player in the league would suffer if his linemate went down, nevermind a linemate you have played with your entire life. But the point is, he did not disappear while Daniel was out so Henrik is Vancouver's MVP.
As for Montreal, I would have to go with Cammalleri. As mentioned above Markov's return coincided with a bunch of other players returning to the line-up, Gomez starting to produce (14pts in 12 games at one point), and A. Kostitsyn catching fire.
When Cammalleri scores in a game the Habs are 11-4-2, otherwise their record is 14-21-3. |
Edited by - Thrasher17 on 01/27/2010 21:29:26 |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 23:26:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher17
When Cammalleri scores in a game the Habs are 11-4-2, otherwise their record is 14-21-3.
WOW!! That is a pretty impressive stat and tough to argue against. Although I still like Markov, I wouldn't disagree to much towards Cammalleri. But can we just agree that Markov, although maybe not he MVP, is far from a HORRIBLE choice?? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Mid Season Team MVPs 
