| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Guest8353
( )
|
 Posted - 05/14/2010 : 05:07:04
|
I have been arguing with a friend of mine who is a Red Wings fan.
He is saying Fleury is the worst goalie to win the cup and I am saying Osgood. I think Detroit won the cups in spite of Osgood not because of him.
thoughts
|
|
|
Guest2691
( )
|
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 05:33:33
|
| how about cam ward? |
 |
|
|
Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 15:23:51
|
Fleury worst goalie i have seen win the Cup.
Cam Ward is Amazing.
Osgood is bad; but was better then Fleury.
The Monkey is me |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 19:53:56
|
I would completely disagree that Fleury was worst that Osgood in either series, the finals Pitt lost or the next year when they won. In fact, I would comfortably say that Fleury was a better goalie in both situations as he had a far worst defensive group or defensive team in front of him.
If I had to pick the worst in recent history I would agree with Osgood. He has never impressed me. |
|
|
|
Guest9668
( )
|
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 20:11:11
|
Osgoode in a landslide. Detroit's D was remarkably tight and solid, and actually made him look above average for stretches. Not saying he was totally awful in those cup runs, but he didn't have to be that amazing either. Fleury was the best penguin during last year's final. Especially in game 7. Most inconsistent goalie? That's a different argument, and he might win.
Other notables are J.S. Giguere, Cam Ward and Khabibulin (one cup each, some question as to how much of a 'fluke' each one's cup run was. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 22:10:30
|
Ward is pretty solid. He has been hurt and on a bad team.
Khabibulin is no fluke. Look what he did in Chicago last year. If you look way back you will also see that although Phoenix/Winnipeg did not win his numbers were pretty friggin sharp.
Giguere has never completely impressed me. Never reached his potential in my opinion.
However, even if you disagree on my opinion of Ward, Khabibulin, or Giguere being good or not, at the least they played great when then won. Osgood was barely average. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 06:32:04
|
Agree with Beans here (is it a full moon?) - Fleury outplayed (maybe not statistically) Osgood in both series finals . . . much worse defence, scoring chances included many more higher quality chances.
Osgood in a landslide - but this is just for the modern era which I know, I am sure Leigh will come up with some guy in the 50s or 60s that sucked but still won. Actually, who was on thos powerhouse Montreal teams in the 60's? Maybe that guy.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Guest2277
( )
|
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 11:08:14
|
| osgood hands down...how can u say giguere is a fluke ? won the cup in 2007...didn`t he win the conn smyte in the playoffs in 2003 ?? was he only the second player in nhl history to win this award on a losing team ?...not sure but i think so |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 15:32:03
|
Yeah really, Why is Gigučre even in this argument. Gigučre had some pretty strong seasons, especially in the playoffs. He brought a 7 seeded team to one game of winning the Stanley cup in 03.
I also don't understand why Ward and Fleury are in this argument. They all played great the year they won the cup. And they had other great seasons, or playoffs on top of that.
Osgood has always been, IMO, the worst goalie to win the cup in recent years. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 18:59:01
|
are we talking about the same Conn Smyth winner Jean Sebastien Giguere or is their some other giguere i`m not aware of? to even mention his name in this topic is insane!!!
Pasty |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 22:04:22
|
I think some people are missing the point. No one is arguing that Giguere was brilliant in a few of his playoff runs. However, will he go down in history as a great goalie, a good goalie, an average goalie, or mediocre??
And all this talk about "7th seeds" is weak to say the least. On nearly any season one can think of, the is at least one of the 'lower seeds' that make it deep. It's not that big of a surprise. The seeding into the playoffs is really becoming irrelvant.
I am of the opinion that Giguere, although brilliant in a few of the playoffs, is nothing more than an average #1 goalie. Does that make him the worst goalie to win the Cup?? Nope. But he is so far down the list of the best goalies to win he might as well be on the worst list.
Finally, to the Conn Smythe winning comment. Sure, many of the games greats have won the Smythe. However, there are also players who have played brilliant enough to win the Conn Smythe but are not considered brilliant players. Bill Ranford, Mike Vernon, Reggie Leach, and Giguere come to mind. Some might even consider Claude Lemieux on that list. He was absolutely clutch in the playoffs, but really wasn't ever more than a solid 3rd line player(2nd line replacement) for virtually his entire career. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 06:02:18
|
i think maybe just maybe people are forgetting how good Giguere was before his last two seasons, untill the last two seasons giguere has been a top 7 or 8 goalie the league and at one point for a couple years easily a top 5, is he a hall of famer of course not but i'm sorry guys like Turco, Fleury Rolson Thomas and many other noteable names come to mind as far inferior goalies to J.S when he was in his prime, i repeat when he was in his prime, J.s will retire as much more than an average number one , a very good number 1 !
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 05/17/2010 06:42:47 |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 06:52:01
|
Wow, it's about all I can say.
Turco, in his prime, was also an elite, top 10 in the league goalie. And Roloson?? Take a look at his numbers over the past 3 seasons and what he has done on horrible hockey teams. Fluery is still young and I believe as good as Giguere ever was.
I don't recall anyone saying Thomas was a good goalie.....
But let's look specifically at Giguere for a second.
He has 4-30+ win seasons, which is fewer than Turco who had 6 consecutive 30+ win seasons including one 40+ win season. You also might look at the seasons where Giguere had those 30+ win seasons and the teams he had in front of him. Specifically, a defense including Neidermayer, Pronger, and Beachemin. Giguere was one of the best in the league as he played on one of the best teams on the league. Take nothing away from him, he did his job. However, he really wasn't what many would consider brilliant. He was good, but far from great.
Just before the coronation, one might want to see that outside of his 2 playoff runs, he has been horrible in the playoffs. Other than his 2 Cup runs, he has been worse than 3.00 GAA and under .900 save %. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:21:58
|
Forget about numbers - I though Giguere was an awesome goalie, for a good 4-5 years. Short tenure as an elite goalie, yes; but he was an elite goalie, and was considered so by most hockey pundits, including myself.
Osgood has absolutely never been considered an elite goalie . . . even though his stats in many areas are of the elite kind.
No one has mentioned Grant Fhur yet, and he will get all kinds of arguments about how he never let in that "last goal", or that he "played in a different era" . . . but I think he certainly deserves to be on the list.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:22:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Wow, it's about all I can say.
Turco, in his prime, was also an elite, top 10 in the league goalie. And Roloson?? Take a look at his numbers over the past 3 seasons and what he has done on horrible hockey teams. Fluery is still young and I believe as good as Giguere ever was.
I don't recall anyone saying Thomas was a good goalie.....
But let's look specifically at Giguere for a second.
He has 4-30+ win seasons, which is fewer than Turco who had 6 consecutive 30+ win seasons including one 40+ win season. You also might look at the seasons where Giguere had those 30+ win seasons and the teams he had in front of him. Specifically, a defense including Neidermayer, Pronger, and Beachemin. Giguere was one of the best in the league as he played on one of the best teams on the league. Take nothing away from him, he did his job. However, he really wasn't what many would consider brilliant. He was good, but far from great.
Just before the coronation, one might want to see that outside of his 2 playoff runs, he has been horrible in the playoffs. Other than his 2 Cup runs, he has been worse than 3.00 GAA and under .900 save %.
Ok first Turco has played for some pretty brilliant teams himself and has he ever seen the third round of the playoffs and is even extremly limited in the 2nd round expirence aswell, Rolston on the other hand is practicly a career back up with flashes of brilliance, its not because ever GM in the league is stupid that Rolston has to look for a new contract almost every season and gigure has a 6 million $ one
Pasty |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:30:14
|
are these the numbers of an average starting goalie in the nhl??
Total NHL 492 220 184 38 28144 1180 13621 2.52 .913 34 20
These look much more average to me,,, i
Total NHL 512 190 216 32 28999 1286 14220 2.66 .910 24 40
Pasty |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:56:12
|
C'mon Pasty, you are better than this!
Roloson has had 3 contracts in the past 6 years. 2 with the Oilers and 1 with the Islanders. You are now faulting a player for being old and a team not willing to sign a long term deal to a 34+ year old player?? We'll see what happens to Giguere after this season.
Secondly, look at the teams Roloson has played on?? Let's qualify those stat lines: the first line is a player on a team who have won the Cup and made the playoffs over and over and the 2nd stat line being for a goalie playing on a team who made the playoffs just once and often finished in the botton 1/2 of the league
So you are saying that Giguere, who had a significantly better defense in front of him and a better team over all is just 3% higher and .12 lower in GAA than the horrible Dwayne Roloson???
Any idea that it is being suggested that a goalie with a less than .500 win percentage is being called great????
|
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 10:20:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
C'mon Pasty, you are better than this!
Roloson has had 3 contracts in the past 6 years. 2 with the Oilers and 1 with the Islanders. You are now faulting a player for being old and a team not willing to sign a long term deal to a 34+ year old player?? We'll see what happens to Giguere after this season.
Secondly, look at the teams Roloson has played on?? Let's qualify those stat lines: the first line is a player on a team who have won the Cup and made the playoffs over and over and the 2nd stat line being for a goalie playing on a team who made the playoffs just once and often finished in the botton 1/2 of the league
So you are saying that Giguere, who had a significantly better defense in front of him and a better team over all is just 3% higher and .12 lower in GAA than the horrible Dwayne Roloson???
Any idea that it is being suggested that a goalie with a less than .500 win percentage is being called great????
Never said Dwayne Rolson was horrible i love dwayne rolson hard working guy, but he developped into a starting goalie late in his career battled injuries throughout and is not in the same class of goaltender as J.S, don't get me wrong if Dwayne Rolson hadn't gotten hurt in the edmonto final and won the cup i would not think for a second he belonged being mentioned in this topic, Rolson is a career good starting goalie Giguere is a very good, he is a class above dont forget when Neidmyer won the copnn smyth with the ducks a lot of talk was it was either him or J.S there is no way anyone can make a legit argument that Giguere belongs on the list of worst goalies to win the cup. hes on the list of better goalies t0 have won a cup in my books
Pasty |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 10:24:22
|
Great Goalies with a .500 record or worse:
(please note: "great" doesn't mean a HOFer, it just means that for at least a short period of time, they were considered a top 5 goalie, or thereabouts)
Tomas Vokoun
240W, 239L, 35T, 36 OTL (yes, an OTL is a loss in my books)
a stellar career .916 save percentage, and it can easily be argued that he'd be heading to the HOF eventually if not for the fact that his entire career was played for Nashville and Florida. If Vokoun plays out his career in Florida, I can almost guarantee he'll never even get a sniff of the cup - which is really unfortunate for a guy of his calibre.
Roberto Luongo
270W, 254L, 33T, 35OTL
Another stellar career so far, and although you can argue his greatness when talking playoffs and call him overrated . . . his career .918 save percentage and many award nominations say otherwise. He still has a good shot at the cup in his future to build up his resume for the HOF.
for comparison . . .
Grant Fuhr - HOFer, and called the "greatest goalie of all time" by Wayne Gretzky (yeah right)
403W 295L 114T - 5 Stanley Cups, 1 Vezina Trophy (87)
career save percentage was an amazing .887, and he only had it above .900 twice in his career (later with the Blues).
As a goalie, the only good indication of actual ability versus the strength of your team and its defence is - save percentage. And, it's not the be all and end all, but it is a very good indicator, especially when taken over the length of a career . . . and we can see how very good and great goalies stuck on bad teams (most often "middling" teams, as a good goalie brings you up from bad to ok) have win stats and GAA stats that don't reflect how good they really were.
So, please don't use the GAA stat . . . as I could point to any great goalie in the 80s and call him poor with that logic. Point to the save percentage, then we can talk.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 10:52:07
|
btw, as a starting goalie, Giguere has NEVER had a save percentage under .900 . . . this should tell you something. Heck, in 15 games with the Leafs (need I remind you they finished second worst in the league?!?) he went 6-7, had a .916% and had 2 shutouts, with a .249 GAA.
Giguere career stats:
220 W, 184 L, 25T, .913 save %
Conne Smythe (2003) as the losing finalist goalie - his signature performance
Stanley Cup (2007)
It may only have been a season and a half, and later another season that he was considered one of the top goalies, but IMHO, that together with his cup win and the playoff MVP in 2003 is certainly worthy of greatness
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 11:35:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
btw, as a starting goalie, Giguere has NEVER had a save percentage under .900 . . . this should tell you something. Heck, in 15 games with the Leafs (need I remind you they finished second worst in the league?!?) he went 6-7, had a .916% and had 2 shutouts, with a .249 GAA.
Giguere career stats:
220 W, 184 L, 25T, .913 save %
Conne Smythe (2003) as the losing finalist goalie - his signature performance
Stanley Cup (2007)
It may only have been a season and a half, and later another season that he was considered one of the top goalies, but IMHO, that together with his cup win and the playoff MVP in 2003 is certainly worthy of greatness
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Exactly,, i wouldn't go as far as to call him great but J.S is a part of the Very good goalies a step below the Brodeurs and Luonogo's of this world
Pasty |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 14:51:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think some people are missing the point. No one is arguing that Giguere was brilliant in a few of his playoff runs. However, will he go down in history as a great goalie, a good goalie, an average goalie, or mediocre??
And all this talk about "7th seeds" is weak to say the least. On nearly any season one can think of, the is at least one of the 'lower seeds' that make it deep. It's not that big of a surprise. The seeding into the playoffs is really becoming irrelvant.
I am of the opinion that Giguere, although brilliant in a few of the playoffs, is nothing more than an average #1 goalie. Does that make him the worst goalie to win the Cup?? Nope. But he is so far down the list of the best goalies to win he might as well be on the worst list.
Finally, to the Conn Smythe winning comment. Sure, many of the games greats have won the Smythe. However, there are also players who have played brilliant enough to win the Conn Smythe but are not considered brilliant players. Bill Ranford, Mike Vernon, Reggie Leach, and Giguere come to mind. Some might even consider Claude Lemieux on that list. He was absolutely clutch in the playoffs, but really wasn't ever more than a solid 3rd line player(2nd line replacement) for virtually his entire career.
Yeah and most of those 7th or 8th seeded team to go up there has been driven by a hot goalie in order to make those upsets. Gigučre in 03, Kiprusoff in 04, Roloson in 06, or Halak right now.
And Roloson is a good goalie, had his prime later in his career, never won the cup, so you can't compare him with Gigučre. And I wouldn't bring Fuhr into this argument. Fuhr was a great goalie for his time, don't look at the stats as goalies were over 3.00 gaa every year and they had a save% of under .900 most of the seasons. Especially in the 80's |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 18:15:14
|
Slozo, I think you bring up a very good point. There is always something behind the stats that the numbers just don't tell.
For example, Grant Fuhr had an average or below average win percentage and his save percentage was not great. However, we are also talking about a goalie who played mostly in the 80's and early 90's when the pads were smaller than what most PeeWee's defensemen are wearing today.
You are also talking about Fuhr with a .900+ save percentage in St. Louis. How many games a season was he playing at that point?? He missed only 12 of 164 games as 33 yrd old goalie and had a +.900 save percentage.
Anyone old enough to remember the actual games the Oilers played in the 80's would also remember the countless 2 on 1's that Fuhr would face on a nightly basis. Also, how many times did he let in 4 goals through 2 periods and then stand on his head to make sure the 5th didn't go in and assured a victory.
I am not in the market to knock Giguere down. He is definately deserving of his status. However, in the Hall's of time, he is never going to be confused with a brilliant goalie. I consider him similar to Andy Moog in that he was solid when he played but will never been in the top teir.
Finally, let's take a look at past 30 years of Cup Winners and their starting goalie. You tell me where you would put Giguere on this list?? With the list of the likes of Roy, Barraso, Richter, Fuhr, Smith, Vernon, Ranford, Osgood, Khabibulin, Belfour, Brodeur, Fleury, Ward, et al I would find it hard to believe that Giguere is going to land in the top 1/2 of that list.
Remember, the question is relative. We are not trying to say who is good or not. The question is out of the Cup winning Keepers, who is the worst?? |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 18:18:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Slozo, I think you bring up a very good point. There is always something behind the stats that the numbers just don't tell.
For example, Grant Fuhr had an average or below average win percentage and his save percentage was not great. However, we are also talking about a goalie who played mostly in the 80's and early 90's when the pads were smaller than what most PeeWee's defensemen are wearing today.
You are also talking about Fuhr with a .900+ save percentage in St. Louis. How many games a season was he playing at that point?? He missed only 12 of 164 games as 33 yrd old goalie and had a +.900 save percentage.
Anyone old enough to remember the actual games the Oilers played in the 80's would also remember the countless 2 on 1's that Fuhr would face on a nightly basis. Also, how many times did he let in 4 goals through 2 periods and then stand on his head to make sure the 5th didn't go in and assured a victory.
I am not in the market to knock Giguere down. He is definately deserving of his status. However, in the Hall's of time, he is never going to be confused with a brilliant goalie. I consider him similar to Andy Moog in that he was solid when he played but will never been in the top teir.
Finally, let's take a look at past 30 years of Cup Winners and their starting goalie. You tell me where you would put Giguere on this list?? With the list of the likes of Roy, Barraso, Richter, Fuhr, Smith, Vernon, Ranford, Osgood, Khabibulin, Belfour, Brodeur, Fleury, Ward, et al I would find it hard to believe that Giguere is going to land in the top 1/2 of that list.
Remember, the question is relative. We are not trying to say who is good or not. The question is out of the Cup winning Keepers, who is the worst??
uhhh u named 3 goalies i would put a head of giguere beano maybe 4 and a few not even in the same balllpark
Pasty |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 18:37:30
|
So Pasty, as I don't have time to do the research, let's speak in ballpark figures.
Going back 30ish years, there have been approx. 25 goalies to make the skate around the rink with the Cup over their head. Is it fair to say that any goalie who would make the list at 18 through 25 are the 'worst' of the 25 goalies that won??
If that is the case, where is Giguere?? Is he in that 18-25 spot or higher???
Again, relatively speaking, looking at all the goalies that have won the Cup, is Giguere not on the bottom side on that list and therefore one of the worst?? Not saying the worst, most of us agree that Osgood has that position held firm. However, it Giguere not on closer to the bottom of the list than near the top?? |
|
|
|
Guest1752
( )
|
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 20:02:53
|
| Worst winng cup goalie, i can think of is Tommy Barrasso hands down. With the early 90s Pens,he won 2 as a starter & honestly, probably saw less shots in the playoffs than goals scored by Pens. Teams didnt get the puck into the pens end let alone get shots on net. Forget your jibberish about the others. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 20:32:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1752
Worst winng cup goalie, i can think of is Tommy Barrasso hands down. With the early 90s Pens,he won 2 as a starter & honestly, probably saw less shots in the playoffs than goals scored by Pens. Teams didnt get the puck into the pens end let alone get shots on net. Forget your jibberish about the others.
You are also talking about a keeper who won the Calder and Vezina in the same season(84) as well as had a 40+ win season in the early 90's(before that, only 2 keepers had more wins in a single season- Perent and Sawchuk). Barrasso is currently in the top 20 all time in wins as well as faced the 8th most shots in NHL history(since the measurement of shots against).
Finally, a little background check helps make statements valid.
In the 2 Cup Years,
1991 - 20 games played - 629 shots = 31.45 shots/game and a .919 save %
1992 - 21 games played - 622 shots = 29.61 shots/game and a .907 save %.
I think he did his job. in those two seasons he won 28 of 41 games, won 2 Cups, and faced more than 30 shots a game.
From my eyes, I recall Barrasso being pretty solid for the Pens in the early 90's, but maybe some of the older fellers remember better than I. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 06:01:48
|
Barasso is another great example of a goalie that was indeed great but for a short period of time . . . his window was short, but he really was excellent then. The Pens were not at all known for their defence, and without Barasso's fine play, they never would have won back-to-back (possibly just one).
A couple of years after the cup wins, yeah - Barasso didn't have it anymore . . . but he was great for a short time.
Beans - I will have to look up later the last 30 years of cup winning goalies, and I will rate Giggy in there alongside everyone else.
I actually think some people are confusing how good a goalie is playing NOW, or maybe later in his career, as aopposed to when the goalie won the cups. I am rating "worst goalie to win the cup" as the worst skill level performance AT THE TIME THEY WON THE CUP, not before, and not after.
So, I think people have to remember that quite often, a lesser rated goalie like Giguere or Barasso has actually outplayed greats like Brodeur in terms of level of play for the cup win.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 06:47:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So Pasty, as I don't have time to do the research, let's speak in ballpark figures.
Going back 30ish years, there have been approx. 25 goalies to make the skate around the rink with the Cup over their head. Is it fair to say that any goalie who would make the list at 18 through 25 are the 'worst' of the 25 goalies that won??
If that is the case, where is Giguere?? Is he in that 18-25 spot or higher???
Again, relatively speaking, looking at all the goalies that have won the Cup, is Giguere not on the bottom side on that list and therefore one of the worst?? Not saying the worst, most of us agree that Osgood has that position held firm. However, it Giguere not on closer to the bottom of the list than near the top??
i just meant of the goalies you used as a examples, only 3 of them i would have higher than Giguere.Tthe guy had one of the most impressive playoff runs in the history of the game and won a conn smyth even though his team lost. Only 3 players have done that in the history of the NHL. Giguere is most deffinetly in the top half of this list you speak of. Hands down there is no question, period their is no argument here
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 05/18/2010 07:06:34 |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 11:17:14
|
Alright i broke it down, i may be wrong because i did it by memory so correct me if i am but the last 30 stanley cups went to the following starting goalies
Fleury
Osgood
Giguere
Ward
Khabibulin
Brodeur
Osgood
Roy
Brodeur
Belford
Osgood
Vernon
Roy
Brodeur
Richter
Roy
Barraso
Ranford
Vernon
Furh
Fruh
Roy
Furh
furh
Smith/Melanson
Of this list in order i have
Roy
Brodeur
Smith
Belford
Furh as better goalies than giguere
Pasty |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 14:15:06
|
Couple of clean ups with this list. By the way, off the top of your head, this is very impressive.
Hasek won the Cup with Detroit in 2002, not Osgood.
Smith won 4 straight(80, 81, 82, 83)
Barrasso has 2 (90,91)
There are a total of 15 goalies who have won at least one Cup in the past 30. Of those, 7 have multiple Cups. Say what you will but when talking about goalies the only thing that matters is wins. It would be very difficult to put Giguere ahead of any multiple Cup winner except maybe Osgood.
Ranford, Ward, Hasek, Belfour, Fleury, Ricther,Khabibulin, and Giguere are the goalies with 1 Cup. That being said, Ranford has played virtually the same number of games (playoffs) and has 6 fewer wins. In fact, everyone on that list except for Ward and Ranford have MORE playoff wins than Giguere.
Giguere is NOT the best of the single Cup winners, and of the Multiple Cup winners (Roy, Fuhr, Smith, Brodeur, Vernon, Barrasso, and Osgood) I would only put Giguere ahead of Osgood.
If I was ranking them top to bottom, my list would be this in order. Again, showing Giguere is not THE worst, but near the bottom of the list.
Patrick Roy
Billy Smith
Martin Brodeur
Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon
Tom Barrasso
Dominik Hasek
Ed Belfour
Mike Richter
Nikolai Khabibulin
MA Fleury
JS Giguere
Bill Ranford
Cam Ward
Chris Osgood
|
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 15:12:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Couple of clean ups with this list. By the way, off the top of your head, this is very impressive.
Hasek won the Cup with Detroit in 2002, not Osgood.
Smith won 4 straight(80, 81, 82, 83)
Barrasso has 2 (90,91)
There are a total of 15 goalies who have won at least one Cup in the past 30. Of those, 7 have multiple Cups. Say what you will but when talking about goalies the only thing that matters is wins. It would be very difficult to put Giguere ahead of any multiple Cup winner except maybe Osgood.
Ranford, Ward, Hasek, Belfour, Fleury, Ricther,Khabibulin, and Giguere are the goalies with 1 Cup. That being said, Ranford has played virtually the same number of games (playoffs) and has 6 fewer wins. In fact, everyone on that list except for Ward and Ranford have MORE playoff wins than Giguere.
Giguere is NOT the best of the single Cup winners, and of the Multiple Cup winners (Roy, Fuhr, Smith, Brodeur, Vernon, Barrasso, and Osgood) I would only put Giguere ahead of Osgood.
If I was ranking them top to bottom, my list would be this in order. Again, showing Giguere is not THE worst, but near the bottom of the list.
Patrick Roy
Billy Smith
Martin Brodeur
Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon
Tom Barrasso
Dominik Hasek
Ed Belfour
Mike Richter
Nikolai Khabibulin
MA Fleury
JS Giguere
Bill Ranford
Cam Ward
Chris Osgood
Damn i knew the hole time i was forgetting a big one ,, haha hasek is a pretty big one to forget,, hmm interesting order but i cant say as though i agree i would add hasek ahead of Giguere, but i still stand by my list its a question of opinion i guess, but i think we can safley say no bad goalies have won the cup in the last 30 years, actually as i ran through this list i thought to myself `wow this really goes to show you need good if not great goaltending to win the cup`
Pasty |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 18:44:29
|
Pasty, this season is indeed proving you need good/great goaltending, but maybe not a great goalie! As well as Halak's played, he's def not in the "great" debate yet and of the other 3, you could put up a small argument for Nabby but certainly not Niemi or Leighton!
Surprising year this is.... |
|
|
|
Guest8323
( )
|
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 20:51:53
|
| giguere had more equipment on than garth snow ever did. he was like the michelin man out there. easily worst goalie of past ten years to win cup. lets not forget that right after that they started implementing rule changes to curb this problem.. |
|
|
|
Guest4054
( )
|
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 00:35:00
|
| Im gonna say Antti Niemi. Just admit it, it's going to happen. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 05:29:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8323
giguere had more equipment on than garth snow ever did. he was like the michelin man out there. easily worst goalie of past ten years to win cup. lets not forget that right after that they started implementing rule changes to curb this problem..
Uhh i istincly remember other teams having his equipment mesured on a regular basis when he made his playoff run where i remind you he won the conn smyth and it passed each time, hes just a big guy in the net,, you gonna tell me roy didn't wear the biggest baddest equip he could get his hands on back in the day?
Pasty |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 07:51:02
|
Pasty, i think he is talking about how the rules have changed though. Back then, yes, it was legal to wear the over inflated equipment Giguere would wear and his success is often mentioned when the talk of why the rules changed comes up!
As for the comment by 4054, he/she is looking to be not far off! The Hawks look like the team to beat but at the same time, Philly could be a tough match up for them as well, assuming neither blow their two game leads? Are we really gonna see a final of Niemi vs Leighton?  |
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 15:54:45
|
Well this year was the year of the worst or most unproven goalies in the playoffs. Look at this list.
Nabokov
Niemi
Luongo
Bryzgalov
Howard
Quick
Rinne
Anderson
Theodore\Varlamov
Brodeur
Miller
Fleury
Elliot\Leclaire
Rask
Boucher\Leighton
Halak
Only 2 goalies won a cup (Brodeur and Fleury). Only 4 more were bonified starter in their respective teams for longer then the last 2 seasons (Luongo, Bryzgalov, Miller and Nabokov)
Rask, Elliot, Leighton, Halak, Anderson, Quick, Rinne, Howard, Varlamov and Niemi all had their break out season this year or the year before. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2010 : 20:03:53
|
I'm not sure that I can say who the worst NHL Goaltender to win the Stanley Cup has been.
What I can comment on, is that a few goaltenders have won it recently (past 5 years or so) that we're very unproven netminders, at the time they won it. And, have not done a ton since winning it.
Jean-Sebastian Gigure
Cam Ward
--
Marc-Andre Fleury had went to the Stanley Cup Final the year prior to winning Lord Stanley, having back-to-back Final appearances. So, he had somewhat established himself, by going back-to-back.
Chris Osgoode has played in the NHL for some time. He established himself as an NHL goaltender, prior to winning. Though, some would argue, he has ever proven to be a true starter. He is a qualified backup, but, unproven to me, when it comes to being a starter.
As for the two I listed for being 'unproven' when they won, and not done a ton since...
Cam Ward: Carried his team to the Stanley Cup... perhaps, almost single-handidly. But, before that, who really knew who Cam Ward was? He was just starting to establish himself. Since then, Ward (more so his team), has not done a lot in terms of standing out. Some of that, is due to Ward's recent injury problems. So, perhaps that has him on this short list. Because, he has fallen out of my memory somewhat.
Jean-Sebastian Gigure: He is certainly NHL quality. Even, starting quality. But, JSG prior to winning the Cup with the Ducks, was not exactly tearing up the league in terms of standing out. And, since winning, where has he been? He lost his job to the young, Jonas Hiller. And, now plays 50/50 with NHL new comer, Jonas Gustvasson for the Leafs.
Perhaps, he just has to get away from backup goalies named Jonas. They seem to be his plague.
Of course, both Ward & Gigure are capable of playing in net for another Stanley Cup caliber team, especially Ward. But, since their win, and before, neither were stand out.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Guest8734
( )
|
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 03:59:06
|
As much as people slam Osgood, how good did the Wings do last year with Howard? They were still a strong team, but lost in the second round (almost lost in the 1st round).
People say Osgood won because he was with a solid defensive team but he was a contender for the Conn Smyth in 2009 and may have won if the Wings won game 7.
Has anyone ever noticed Brodeur has never won a Conn Smyth. Usually the Conn Smyth goes to the goalie or someone who scores a ton of points. The Devils have never had someone score a great number of points in the playoffs, yet Brodeur has never won a Conn Smyth because he didn't have to steal a playoff series for the Devils. I would argue that any decent goalie would do well playing for the Devils. Just look at Cory Schwab and Scott Clemenenson's stats with the Devils compared with the other teams they have played for.
I'm not arguing that Brodeur is not great, but if you fault Osgood for playing for a defensive team, you need to throw Brodeur into the same category. |
|
|
|
Guest4975
( )
|
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 07:16:56
|
I would say Osgoode is the worst goalie to win the cup. I don't even know why your friend is suggesting Fleury. Look at the defense Fleury has had in front of him...Hal Gill, Martin Skoula, Sergei Gonchar (lots of points, not very good on defense), Alex Goligoski. Osgoode, on the other hand had players like, Chelios, Lidstrom, In '97 he had Larry Murphy, Nic Lidstrom, Mathieu Dandenault. Honestly, there's NO comparison to the teams, Osgoode has ALWAYS had a wall in front of him and that is what made him look good. He was an average goalie on a stacked team. If you want to get into forwards too, well, The Red Wings of old, would crush the Pens of today.
Just so people know, I have never and will never support the Red Wings, I am a Leafs fan and 2nd team has always been the Penguins (but can't stand Crosby) |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Worst goalie to win the cup. 
