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Guest4178
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 Posted - 03/23/2011 : 08:54:27
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I chose the provocative subject heading “Fans Love Fighting” because many of the contributors to this forum appear to want fighting out of the game, while most people would describe that fans (overall) love hockey fights.
To be fair, there are many points of view about fighting (most which are well reasoned), with the spectrum of opinions ranging from “take fighting out of the game completely,” to “some fighting is okay and necessary, but not the staged fights,” to “fighting is part of the game.”
I’ve been to hundreds of games and sat in all sections of the arena, from nosebleeds to suites, and I’ve watched games in a variety of NHL arenas, and one thing remains constant: fans love hockey fights. Sure, maybe not all fans, but I’ve never seen anyone leave their seat during a hockey fight. (And nary a negative comment is made.)
In another thread, a comment was made that “if fighting was so important to the game, then why do guys paid to fight play less minutes than I take to p***.” Well – one thing for sure – despite your disdain, I doubt you’re “taking your p***” when a hockey fight takes place?!?
Personally, I could do without fighting in hockey, but I don’t have a monopoly on wisdom, and my opinion is after all, just one fan’s opinion.
If my distaste for hockey fights was significant (it isn’t), I would stop being a fan, and stop buying tickets.
Speaking of which, I don’t believe there are many instances of fans not going to games (or not buying tickets) because of fighting? On the other hand, I don’t think people would stop going to games if fighting in the game was abolished, but I don’t know. I’ve never researched this.
I think the best hockey is played in the playoffs, and as most know, fighting takes place dramatically less than the regular season. In fact, the further you go in the playoffs, the less fighting there is. It’s been mentioned many times before in this forum that there is no fighting in the Olympics, but the hockey is incredible.
So, the question remains: why is fighting still in the NHL game? Is it because the vast majority of players (current and former, the latter which occupy the ranks of coaches and GM’s in the league) believe fighting has a place in the game? Are they delusional, or culturally predisposed? Do they really believe it acts as a deterrent to cheap shots, etc. which take place anyway?
What about the owners? Most never played the game (but they’re definitely fans), and while they’re businessmen, I’m sure they care about the health of the players! (Even at the base level of how it affects their bottom-line when players are hurt.) Do the owners believe that taking fighting out of the game will affect bums in the seats?
I’m interested to hear others’ thoughts on this subject, because if you have a strong opinion (and belief) that fighting does not belong in the game, why is your opinion so apparently different than the decision-makers in the game, and in a game for which you show so much interest? I guess one answer is that you can have a minority opinion (and the right opinion), but change requires voice, reason and time!
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/23/2011 : 09:04:12
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| Can I make one proviso? Can we keep the discussion to the subject matter at hand? If you want to discuss whether players should remove their helmets in a fight, can you do so in another thread? :) |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 09:53:16
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I'd like to think the same question could be asked in reverse, if there was no fighting in hockey, would any current fans stay, away. And if there are those that would, based solely on that, are they actually hockey fans?
I have stated many times, my disdain for the sideshow type of antics that have become prevalent. Not necessary in any form, IMO.
A fight resulting from an intense physical play? Those are somewhat acceptable, even though as my pal Slozo points out in many threads, it is an illegal play, and he has a valid point.
I would not go so far as to say there should and ever will be no fighting allowed in the NHL. I would question it's necessity anywhere else on a sheet of ice, other than the NHL, including Junior hockey, and I will stand by my opinion, that as much as fans like it, of true fans, none would miss it enough to stop being fans. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 10:26:04
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Due to the extreme speed and aggression of the natural game, throw in the phyical contact and I can honestly say you WILL never get rid of fighting, no matter what the penalty is. I strongly believe if you don't allow the "heat of the moment" fight, frustrations would be taken in other plays ie: hits from behind, highsticks, holding, tripping etc.....
What I don't agree with is the 2 goons at the faceoff, talk about it and then drop 'em as soon as the puck is dropped. This is not only time consuming but utterly useless in the outcome of any game.
I also have a big thorn in my side with the fact a "goon" who plays 1-4 minutes per game is actually sitting on the bench taking up a roster spot for someone who can actually contribute to the game. If you can't take a regular shift, you shouldn't be there, period. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 10:48:42
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quote:
So, the question remains: why is fighting still in the NHL game?
Quite simply, fighting is in the game because the league has never done anything to take it out. Fighting has been in hockey for a long time, to the point that it is now engrained in the game. The only way you'll get rid of fighting is if you put penalties in place that are strong enough to eliminate it.
Fighting is not inherent to hockey - most levels of international hockey ban fighting or penalize it. European leagues (minus the KHL) have fairly stiff penalties for fighting - 5 minutes and game misconduct for any participant, plus supplemental punishment. In the Juniors tournament each year, there are never fights - despite the fact that most of the Canadian and American players play in leagues where fighting is commonplace and they have probably fought in those leagues. Why? Because the penalties for fighting in IIHF competition is stiff.
The NHL could eliminate or severely cut down on fighting anytime they want to. A 5 minute major, game misconduct, and 2 game suspension for any player penalized for fighting would probably do it. The real question is - why don't they? |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 11:46:13
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Nux, though I agree with where you are going with this, let's be realistic. How many games do the player's in Junior competition play? 10 + and the tourney is over? I think all players can hold back for that long. Euro leagues? 40+ on much bigger ice that spreads the physical game out?
Anyone remember this?
Punch-up in Piestany
Main article: Punch-up in Piestany
One of the most infamous incidents in WJHC history occurred in 1987 in Piestany, Czechoslovakia, where a bench-clearing brawl occurred between Canada and the Soviet Union. It began when the Soviet Union's Pavel Kostichkin took a two-handed slash at Canadian player Theoren Fleury. The Soviet Union's Evgeny Davydov then came off the bench, eventually leading to both benches emptying. The officials, unable to break up the fight, left the ice and eventually tried shutting off the arena lights, but the brawl lasted for 20 minutes before the IIHF declared the game null and void. A 35-minute emergency meeting was held, resulting in the delegates voting 7–1 (the sole dissenter was Canadian Dennis McDonald) to eject both teams from the tournament. The Canadian team chose to leave rather than stay for the end-of-tournament dinner, from which the Soviet team were banned.
While the Soviets were out of medal contention, Canada was playing for the gold medal, and were leading 4–2 at the time of the brawl. The gold medal ultimately went to Finland, hosts Czechoslovakia took the silver and Sweden, who had previously been eliminated from medal contention, was awarded the bronze.[10]
Wikipedia
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Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 03/23/2011 11:52:59 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 11:59:13
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Really great point Nux that this is not a HOCKEY thing, this is an NORTH AMERICAN HOCKEY thing. The KHL is doing everything they can to be like the NHL, but virtually every other league has far stiffer penalties for fighting.
The hockey is fast and physical excuse is bollocks. What about football?? Explain to me the difference in speed and physicality of the the NFL?? Firstly, every single play in the NFL has not just one hit, but generally every player on the line hit and the player with the football gets his, the QB gets hit, etc. I would say that football is MORE physical than hockey?? Relating to speed, the NHL is faster but not by as much as one might think. If you are comparing the fastest NFL player to the fastest NHL player, and figure it down to a comparable measure, it is about 1 second per 40 yrds faster in the NHL. This means the the fastest NHL players is travelling at 26 MPH and the fastest NFL players is travelling at 20 MPH.
So, the NHL is slightly faster and the NFL is more physical. Do you want to know why the NFL doesn't have fights every game??
BECAUSE THE LEAGUE DOES NOT ALLOW IT!!!! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/23/2011 12:00:19 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 12:37:44
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FER....i agree that if fighting was taken out, most hockey fans (and that most is as close to "all" as you can imagine) would not stop being fans. However, to answer your question about whether or not those fans who did choose to stop watching are "actual hockey fans", i'd have to say yes. This, the game with fighting, is what they've grown up with and become accustomed to. If you make what one may consider a big change, it's possible i suppose that a small number would consider no longer watching / supporting. They still have to be considered hockey fans though as right now, they are watching hockey, are they not?
I am kind of in the middle on all of this. I too would love to see the "planned fights" gone from the game, but i don't detest the odd spur of the moment bout. Can we get rid of one and not the other? Maybe? But really to rid fighting completely from the game of hockey, they'd have to follow suit with the other leagues (NFL, NBA, etc) and make their punishment far stricter.
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 13:43:52
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Guest good thread, to clarify I said I p*** more with a couple of beer in me then your goons play over the course of the game. Considering, I live in the Toronto area and witness a lot of the staged fighting; I do infact find the staged fights as an oppurtune time to take care of my business. After all TSN & other networks will repeat it another 100X over the course of 24hrs. That and I love skill on display not goons. I watch MMA to get my fill of organized chaos.
Now on topic:
Fighting in ice hockey is an established tradition of the sport in North America, with a long history involving many levels of amateur and professional play. Although a definite source of criticism, it is a considerable draw for the sport, and some fans attend games primarily to see fights. Fighting is usually performed by one or more enforcers, or "goons"—players who are typically better at fighting than hockey.
As far as hockey fans loving fighting. I request that you read the article below, as i have continually argued over the years the lack of value fighting brings to the game. The points made & numbers in the article show how insignificant fighting is in general, but more importantly in impactful games.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/sports/hockey/18enforcers.html
Lets be real, based upon the info above & if we analyze the "Fans love Fighting" moniker from a league perspective. The primary intrigue / focus of fighting is designated for the warm climate / non traditional American public. States like Georgia & Florida hardly know what ice is "geographically speaking, not intellectually". Why would they give a damn about a game that only involves ice and a black disc that they cannot see "Fox's puck" if they were not promised & provided organized chaos. Especially, when they could go watch high school football. Laugh if you will, but those kids get more people at a game then NHL arena's can hold.
Your real hockey guru's are located in Canada where most of us on here have shown we could careless about fighting's need and impact on the game & Europe as evident by the likes of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Selanne, Forsberg, Jagr etc. There is hardly ever a need for fighting; rather the sole desire to show world class skill. Your true American hockey fans (Chicago, NY, Det, SJ, Minnesotta, Philly,Pitt etc) will continue to come to the games, because they love the game and the team they cheer for, not the sideshow that may unfold.
This is an extreme approach, but If you want to take a hard nose approach to the game, eliminate one of your flailing franchise and allocate the players on that team in a draft style distribution. This would ultimately eliminate the need for 30 players in the league. Anybody missing Chris Simon the last three years or not seeing Boogaard touch the ice during playoffs?? Don't expect to see tears from your hockey enthusiast due to the absense of the Orr's & Boogaard's of the league.
Another approach is that similar to minor hockey. Any fighting or illegal hit in the third period is an automatic objection with a minimum one game suspension on top of that. Your pointless melay's typically ensue in the third period when a game is either out of hand or a coach is sending a guy out to prove a point. Eliminating this type of c**p out of the league will not only remove the need for a bench warmer, but also keep those who have the occasional absentmindness in check.
As a league if you enforces rules that do not allow your players emotions to get out of control i.e the nfl. Not only do you eliminate excuses, but a players actions warrant stiff penality as they are willingly breaking the rules. The same penaltie we face as civilians for beating the crap out of a guy because he took a shot at our manhood / pride.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/23/2011 : 15:27:05
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Great dialogue – lots of good points made!
To you Mario, even though Toronto is not my "home rink," I've been to a number of games at Air Canada Centre (and before that, Maple Leaf Gardens), and I've never seen you (or anyone) go for a p*** during a hockey fight. Maybe my eyes were focussed on what was taking place on the ice? :)
But I hear you – it would be kinda neat to see hockey fans leave their seats (and I don't mean jumping in their seats) when a hockey fight takes place. I've just never witnessed it!
You make a lot of good points, and thanks for sending along the article – it was very interesting. It certainly validated comments that you rarely see fighting when the best hockey (playoffs and Olympics) takes place.
If the NHL really wanted to eliminate or reduce fighting (they don't, at least right now), they would follow the lead of US college hockey.
Here's an excerpt for how they deal with fighting in college hockey:
"In Division I & III NCAA hockey, the fighters are given a Game Disqualification, which is an ejection from the game and a suspension for as many games as the player has accrued Game Disqualifications during the course of a season. For example, if a player engages in a fight having already received a Game Disqualification earlier in the season, he is ejected from that game and suspended for his team's next two games."
Because of this rule, you rarely see a fight in US college hockey, and interestingly, the average age of a US college hockey player is older than Canadian junior hockey players.
I don't agree that the rules (and enforcement of rules) should be the same in junior hockey as they are in the NHL. Sure - many NHL players come out of junior hockey, but turning things around, what percentage of junior hockey players go on to play in the NHL? My guess is around 10% of junior hockey players make it to the NHL. (Playing at least 50 games. One or two games doesn't really count.) And there are 16 and 17 year olds playing junior hockey.
It's going to take a long time for the culture of hockey to change as it relates to fighting. The players want it in the game, and as stated before, the ex-players who run things (coaches, GMs) want it in the game, and they believe it has a place in the game. (And I think the majority of fans like hockey fights.)
One thing could change all of that though. What if a player (not a minor leaguer) died in a hockey fight? It could happen. Look at the size of these guys. I was at the Oilers first game of the season, and saw the McIntyre-Ivanans fight up real close. Ivanans is still out. The fans went crazy (the Oilers were up 4-0 at the time), and I can't honestly tell you what percentage of fans were still cheering the knockout, when he was helped off the ice by his teammates. Or whether their applause was the kind of applause you hear when an injured player, even from the opposing team, gets up off the ice, after being hurt. I would like to think the vast majority of fans fell into the latter category. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 15:37:22
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Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach ) |
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Pushrod
Top Prospect
Canada
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 16:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
Interesting take Duke that noone has really brought up with regards to the mentality between the two sports. The nfl has taken it upon themselves to protect them instead of the players doing it as they have new rules in the past couple years specifically designed to protect the qb from getting injured as they realize they are the league's top selling features. Keeps it out of the domain of the players on the field that way.
While this is not even remotely possible in hockey (ie. giving extra suspensions if a star player is hurt, or specific on ice rule that apply only to them or something ludicrous like that), establishing harsher punishments or rule changes that limit dangerous plays would certainly help. It may also cause the need for the enforcer to disappear, which it seems that many feel is an unnecessary component anyways, even those that like the odd scrap. I'd include myself in that category, as the heat of the emotion tilt does add entertainment but the staged fight certainly seems like a waste of time and the fight itself often of poorer quality anyways. The extra suspension that many above have mentioned certainly seems like the quickest way to reduce fights. |
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Guest8149
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Posted - 03/23/2011 : 17:54:41
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In a recent Maclean's poll (conducted by Angus Reid), 41% of people surveyed favoured a total ban on fighting. When isolating the results to just hockey fans, only 13% were in favour of an outright ban on fighting.
Polls are polls, but the results seem about right. Most hockey fans (especially paying hockey fans) like fighting in the game. And this may explain why it remains so. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 19:01:21
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Polls are polls but they are often leading and/or misleading.
The question is regarding the total ban on fighting and if it was supported.
The alternate question to that would be if there was as total ban on fighting, would you no longer be a fan on the NHL???
I smell a poll question coming............ |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 19:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8149
In a recent Maclean's poll (conducted by Angus Reid), 41% of people surveyed favoured a total ban on fighting. When isolating the results to just hockey fans, only 13% were in favour of an outright ban on fighting.
Polls are polls, but the results seem about right. Most hockey fans (especially paying hockey fans) like fighting in the game. And this may explain why it remains so.
Guest, please exuse my ignorance, but i don't understand this poll exactly. 41% of people as compared to 13% of hockey fans? Huh? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but were the 41% of "people" talking about hockey or were just the 13% of hockey fans???
I'm confused, or i missed something here?  |
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Guest8149
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Posted - 03/23/2011 : 20:27:55
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Sorry Alex - I wasn't very clear. Here's the specific excerpt from Maclean's which should help: "A total ban on fighting gains the approval of just 41 per cent of all those surveyed, and just 13 per cent of fans." The survey was conducted where a cross section of Canadians were polled, many who are not hockey fans.
Lots of interesting tidbits in the article, which appears in the March 28th edition of the magazine. (Hmmm - March 28th edition is out already.) I couldn't find the article online, but here's another group of stats from the poll:
When asked about Chara's punishment for his hit on Pacioretty, "91 per cent of Quebecers thought it was too lenient, compared to 52 per cent of British Columbians, or 45 per cent of Calgay Flames backers.". Not terribly surprised by these results. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 21:31:57
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Thanks for the clarification, that helps!
Not surprised by these other numbers nor am i surprised the March 28 issue is out seeing as my wife is reading crappy tabloid mags dated April 2011  |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 02:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point? |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 08:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point?
If you take a cheap shot at Kessle do you want to answer to Orr or Kadri? |
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Pushrod
Top Prospect
Canada
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 09:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point?
If you take a cheap shot at Kessle do you want to answer to Orr or Kadri?
If the penalties are more severe and standardized maybe there are less cheap shots to answer for. Or Kessel could learn to take care of himself, or at the very least do the old stare down after scoring the winning goal after the idiot who took the cheap shot provided the extra motivation. As FER said in a different post, it feels much better to personally provide the payback later in the game in the form of a solid hit (or goal) then it does to have someone come in and protect you. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 09:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point?
If you take a cheap shot at Kessle do you want to answer to Orr or Kadri?
Oh I don't know, same question, only Boston: Do I want Lucic in the lineup (30 goals) or some cementhead with 0 points in 7 yrs??
Get my point? How about someone who contributes to the team and the game while still able to hold his own? |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 03/24/2011 09:30:08 |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 09:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pushrod
quote:
Originally posted by tbar
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point?
If you take a cheap shot at Kessle do you want to answer to Orr or Kadri?
If the penalties are more severe and standardized maybe there are less cheap shots to answer for. Or Kessel could learn to take care of himself, or at the very least do the old stare down after scoring the winning goal after the idiot who took the cheap shot provided the extra motivation. As FER said in a different post, it feels much better to personally provide the payback later in the game in the form of a solid hit (or goal) then it does to have someone come in and protect you.
Thats all fine and dandy but I would just hate smileing or giving the good old stare down at the other team when im looking for the teeth that used to be in my mouth 
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Edited by - tbar on 03/24/2011 09:35:29 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Guess most of you would rather not have fighting in the game ?? I don`t mind it, it`s entertaining.
Toxx whats wrong when 2 goons agree to fight off the face-off ? The fans get a kick out of it, maybe the loudest time they cheer all night. Both get 5 min. majors....it`s still 5 on 5 hockey afterwards. Who cares.
Beans, football mentality is to kill the quarter-back ( your star player ). Young amercians are thaught this from grade school....its a honor in football to sack the Quarter-back....they understand and accept this moto. No-one fights when this is accomplished because its their game plan. Same with the blockers...its what they do.
Hockey mentality is don`t hit our star player or we will kill you...its a totally diffrent out-look on physicality during the game. Young Canadian kids are taught this from novice.( the two sports have a diffrent approach )
What's wrong with it? Well, besides having 0 result on the outcome of a game, I stated quite clearly, the "goons" (2-4 min per game, 3 career goals in 10 yrs.....) are taking up roster spots.
Maybe there is room for Kadri or Boyce on the bench if Orr wasn't there? And you can go down the list of teams who have these high scoring "goons" keeping the spot closed to someone who can contribute. That was my point, personally could care less if they want to pummel each other, just don't see the point?
If you take a cheap shot at Kessle do you want to answer to Orr or Kadri?
The answer is neither.
Today's situation:
Cooke takes a cheap shot at Kessel, Leaf players try to get him to fight, he avoids it, Leafs are down a man afterward.
Later pehaps, Orr fights some other tough guy, and life goes on.
There are dozens of examples of this, or, you can just watch more hockey.
Potential situation if fighting/cheap shots had more severe penalties:
Kadri is in the lineup instead of an Orr because Orr has no value any more. Kessel gets a cheap shot from Cooke again, and the refs make the right call and he gets a 5 minute major and a 6 game suspension.
So yeah, I'd rather let the refs, and the NHL disciplinary body, take care of who gave the cheap shot.
Does that answer your strawman argument?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:37:31
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I'm following the thread here and trying to follow some of the logic, and not being very successful.
If I'm following, then, if I take a cheap shot at Kessel, that doesn't get caught by the refs and isn't a clean hit on a player who should have his head up, since he is a star player and should expect some extra attention, then, I should expect Orr to come knocking on my door. Then the subsequent fight that is expected, which may or may not happen, is expected in which case, if I play my cards right, not only can I get away with the purported cheap shot, I can then entice Orr in to taking some extra penalty minute time, by either repaying the cheap shot, which the refs will most likely catch, due to reputation, or by at the very least ensuring he gets an instigator penalty.
So not only do I get the alleged cheap shot on the star player, but I get an opportunity to draw a power play for my team.
I think I've just found part of the problem to the Leafs problems!!!
I can hear it on the bench from Wilson now.....
"Go get 'im Orr, go get 'im Mike Brown, go get 'im Rosehill, go get 'im Komisarek.....errr, wait.....go get 'im Rosehill!!!"
How about this as a better scenario, a player takes a cheap shot at my star player and gets away with one, a few shifts later, same player has the puck, and feeling all good about the space he has created with his physical play, gets the puck on his stick, and again self-appreciating how he is the man, takes an extra second with the puck, looking up just in time to see nothing but the curve of a shoulder pad 2 inches from his face.
He the gets to spend the next 30 seconds, trying the get his eyeballs to stop rolling around in his skull, and trying to pump his own knees in to his chest, to try and re-inflate his lungs, as all the air has been forced out of them, as well as all the snot, out of his nose.
It's all good though because if he could get back up, he would throw down and force a fight out of that clean check, except the he's still having a spot of trouble trying to catch his breath.
Once he realizes that his innards are still in, and his parts are still all conjoined, he may stop and determine, that maybe a cheap shot isn't such a good idea, and he better keep his head up, and watch for that hitter instead.
Not a punch thrown, not a penalty incurred. same message sent.
Worked for me, numerous times. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:44:18
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Full Moon!! A strawman comment that I actually completely agree with. This is the biggest misconception about fighting in that it polices the game. It simply doesn't. Boogaard fighting Rupp does not stop Cooke from elbowing people in the face. Rarely is it the player who actually did cross that ever moving imaginary line that actually fights.
Gone are the 60's as Willus discuss where two players went back and forth physically until it hit a breaking point and those two guys dropped the gloves. Those are so rare today it's not even relevant. That is not the problem. When Andrew Cogliano fights Andrew Ebbett after they each throw a few hits at each other and tap each other less than friendly like with their sticks, it means something. It means we dance and it's done.
When Steven MacIntyre punches Radis Ivanans in the face so hard in the first game of the season during a 5 goal blow out causing a season (and possibly career ending) concussion it is completely worthless.
Fighting doesn't police the game as it once did as the players don't fight each other when they have issues. Their tough guys fight. It's like the kid in school that chirps and chirps and chirps when he is best friends with the toughest kid in class. You are never fighting the kid that chirps and after you clean out the scraps and ice down the black eye you got for 'being a man' the lippy little kid is still chirping.
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:52:44
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How bout we take that Maclean poll and pose the question to Canadian hockey fans / parents that supposedly love fighting so much.
"If your son or daughter where involved in the fights you love so much and the repercussions where a potential broken hand, head smashing against the ice, or permanent head trauma from too many shots to the ole cranium would you still hold fighting in such high regard and necessity to the game?"
People love fighting because it is primal instinct to defend our young, or keep honour and respect to ourselves. Thus, why boxing has always been a dominant sport and MMA the fastest growing sport in the world.
Pose the question to people when they have something to lose or are potentially effected in the matter and the response greatly changes.
Those of you who support it put the shoe on the other foot and see how the consequences outway your rationale.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:01:53
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Here here, Mario. Great points coming in this discussion.
Not only do people's opinion's change if they receive a negative impact but I have always viewed fighting as the idiot's way of dealing with a disagreement. Intelligent people always have a way to resolve difference without violence when fools get a little heated and quickly lay down the offer to fight.
The best hockey players are those who know how to punish people. That being, on the scoreboard and within the rules. That guy who gets taken advantage of and then goes and scores a goal it my hero. That guy who takes a number and catches his enemy coming across the blue line with his head down and lays a clean hit that knocks the wind out of the guy is my hero. When that tool is sitting on hs bench gasping for air with his team down by a goal and looks over the other teams bench to see that smart player grinning at him, it is worth more than any beating that guy could ever receive.
Any meatball can fight. It takes a 'real man' to punish his enemy without violence. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/24/2011 11:05:09 |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:09:50
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I'm not so sure that showing another player "nothing but the curve of a shoulder pad 2 inches from his face" is the best way to go.
That sounds a lot like a head shot to me! |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:22:05
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Beans to add briefly to your point made earlier. Not only does the kid continue to churp, but even if you do get your hands on him and break every bone in his body. There is about a 90% chance in today's society that not only are you going to get jumped by 3 - 15 guys, but there is just as good a chance your going to recieve some sort of weapon to the back of your skull or body.
Last week my younger brother was playing in his league semi's against the Markham Waxers. This young punk sitting behind our parents who was supporting the other team was yelling obscenities the entire game about how they should hit our guys in the head again or condoned when they cross checked one of our players in the boards. Then on top of that starting yelling racial slurs and asked how much we where paying the refs. Finally, I had enough turned around told him to shut the f*** up and to learn some respect; also told him i would gladly judo toss his a** to the floor 15 feet below. In typical fashion he said I will get my dad to kick your ass.
Sure enough after the game Vern Troyer (mini me) no joke guy was 5'3 bald head & his brother who was close to my size get in my face as well as another one of our parents who told the kid to s*** up & began yapping at us how we had the nerve to cus off a 15 yr old. After laughing histerically I looked at the two of them and said "I condone you both for defending his stupidity, not only do you encourage him to not respect his elders, but you support his actions which, I assure you will result in him getting the s*** kicked out of him or end up in his death because he does not know when to shut his yap. I further went to inform then of the ignornance that came out of his mouth and said if they still felt an example needed to be set my buddy & I would gladly wait for them outside. Needless to say they never showed up & I did not see the kid at another one of the games. Once again intelligence & logic found away to solve a problem that fighting would of only further escalated.
My apoligies for taking this a little off topic.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:22:31
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After all that has been said, it's all a moot point. As long as the players / NHLPA say fighting stays in the game, it'll be here until the end of time. Owners don't have a problem with it (except Mario) players are ok with it and according to the fans on their feet when a scrap breaks out, they don't mind it.
Until those 3 mentalities change "f orgettaboutit ". |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
How bout we take that Maclean poll and pose the question to Canadian hockey fans / parents that supposedly love fighting so much.
"If your son or daughter where involved in the fights you love so much and the repercussions where a potential broken hand, head smashing against the ice, or permanent head trauma from too many shots to the ole cranium would you still hold fighting in such high regard and necessity to the game?"
People love fighting because it is primal instinct to defend our young, or keep honour and respect to ourselves. Thus, why boxing has always been a dominant sport and MMA the fastest growing sport in the world.
Pose the question to people when they have something to lose or are potentially effected in the matter and the response greatly changes.
Those of you who support it put the shoe on the other foot and see how the consequences outway your rationale.
In youth we learn; in age we understand
I was recently in Dauphin Manitoba coaching my Bantam team at the rural AA provincials. It’s funny that you ask how it may affect the parents of a player who fights, because I happen to be sitting in the hot tub with Colton Orr's Grandparents. I asked them how they felt about their Grandson being an NHL fighter (who was hurt do to a fight at the time=, he may still be) and they simply said, well if your good enough at it and someone wants to pay you a couple million a year to do it....why not? Now I wish I would have had more time to keep talking to this very level headed older couple but I didn’t. I just found it funny that they had NO problem with their Grandson being a punching bag on occasion, in fact they seemed very proud they had a Grandson in the NHL.
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I'm following the thread here and trying to follow some of the logic, and not being very successful.
If I'm following, then, if I take a cheap shot at Kessel, that doesn't get caught by the refs and isn't a clean hit on a player who should have his head up, since he is a star player and should expect some extra attention, then, I should expect Orr to come knocking on my door. Then the subsequent fight that is expected, which may or may not happen, is expected in which case, if I play my cards right, not only can I get away with the purported cheap shot, I can then entice Orr in to taking some extra penalty minute time, by either repaying the cheap shot, which the refs will most likely catch, due to reputation, or by at the very least ensuring he gets an instigator penalty.
So not only do I get the alleged cheap shot on the star player, but I get an opportunity to draw a power play for my team.
I think I've just found part of the problem to the Leafs problems!!!
I can hear it on the bench from Wilson now.....
"Go get 'im Orr, go get 'im Mike Brown, go get 'im Rosehill, go get 'im Komisarek.....errr, wait.....go get 'im Rosehill!!!"
How about this as a better scenario, a player takes a cheap shot at my star player and gets away with one, a few shifts later, same player has the puck, and feeling all good about the space he has created with his physical play, gets the puck on his stick, and again self-appreciating how he is the man, takes an extra second with the puck, looking up just in time to see nothing but the curve of a shoulder pad 2 inches from his face.
He the gets to spend the next 30 seconds, trying the get his eyeballs to stop rolling around in his skull, and trying to pump his own knees in to his chest, to try and re-inflate his lungs, as all the air has been forced out of them, as well as all the snot, out of his nose.
It's all good though because if he could get back up, he would throw down and force a fight out of that clean check, except the he's still having a spot of trouble trying to catch his breath.
Once he realizes that his innards are still in, and his parts are still all conjoined, he may stop and determine, that maybe a cheap shot isn't such a good idea, and he better keep his head up, and watch for that hitter instead.
Not a punch thrown, not a penalty incurred. same message sent.
Worked for me, numerous times.
FE you make good points as always, and yes you can get your payback with a hard well timed clean body check.
Here is another way you can do it, send out Orr against Cooke and tell him to beat the bloody pulp out of him and take the five kill the penalty and good to go. Mr. Cooke probably won't throw a hit the rest of the game and in any games to be played against you for the rest of the year. Basically as a team you just said you want to be a douchbag we will take care of you and deal with our consequences.
PS. I would never do this with my Bantam kids! you all probably think I like to goone it up, thats not the case. I think the tough guys should be allowed to enforce the rules and unfortunatly the NHL took that ability away with the insagator rule and didnt do their job at the time, and that would be handing out worthy suspensions. |
Edited by - tbar on 03/24/2011 11:36:47 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178
I'm not so sure that showing another player "nothing but the curve of a shoulder pad 2 inches from his face" is the best way to go.
That sounds a lot like a head shot to me!
 I didn't think I'd have to be that precise, but for those who nitpick; ..the player had his head down,as his head raises, he sees the shoulder pad. As he continues to raise his head, with a sort of wide-eyed, WTF!!!!! wheredidhecomefromthisisgoingtohurt, look on his face, the shoulder usually clears the bottom of his chin, and continues in to more of the clavicle, upper chest region, causing that satisfying UUUUHHHHHHH!!!!, sound to explode from the player, along with whatever spit was in his mouth and snot in his nose, to be expunged all over the front of his face.
Best feeling ever, giving one of those to a self-professed tough guy.
Especially, when toughie lies there for a few seconds, whimpering like a little girl, cause his wind is gone, and you get that brief but satisfying second to stand over him and gently remind him, 'keep your head up, I'll be back'.
Besides, even it was higher, 30 years ago, that was a clean hit!!
Who says the game doesn't evolve. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:58:24
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I'm not at all surprised that Colton Orr's grandparents would express pride when talking about their grandson. (Especially to a complete stranger.)
They're talking about their grandson after all, and in close families, you don't talk disrespectfully about "your own," especially if a member of your family is in a high profile sport.
I suspect for most families of hockey pugilists, they probably have some misgivings about what their grandson, son, husband, etc. does for a living, but they're not usually going to air it out in public.
I would tend to think that most hockey fans (including those on this forum) would be quite proud to be related to a player in the NHL, even including a hockey enforcer. Sure, they may be a few notable exceptions, but I suspect that even Sean Avery and Matt Cooke have families who are proud of them. (Not necessarily their actions sometimes, but for them to a professional hockey player in the NHL.) |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:11:21
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I'd like interject a quick question, related to this topic.
I can understand fans at the NHL level, enjoying this part of the game and from a business perspective I can see it at the NHL level, and I can even understand the players willingness to allow it at the NHL level, because theoretically, although I call BS, it gives the skill guys more space.
but,
Is it really in our best interest as a society to allow it anywhere else though? Would the change not happen more willingly and acceptingly, if we at least took it out of the game outside, the pro level?
Is there a reason to condone it in minor hockey in any way?
Would that not then have the desired, by me anyways, trickle up effect, as opposed to the mimicking of the pros and the trickle down acceptance it has now?
If you are a fan of the fighting allowed in hockey in any level outside of the pros, is that acceptable? |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Beans to add briefly to your point made earlier. Not only does the kid continue to churp, but even if you do get your hands on him and break every bone in his body. There is about a 90% chance in today's society that not only are you going to get jumped by 3 - 15 guys, but there is just as good a chance your going to recieve some sort of weapon to the back of your skull or body.
Last week my younger brother was playing in his league semi's against the Markham Waxers. This young punk sitting behind our parents who was supporting the other team was yelling obscenities the entire game about how they should hit our guys in the head again or condoned when they cross checked one of our players in the boards. Then on top of that starting yelling racial slurs and asked how much we where paying the refs. Finally, I had enough turned around told him to shut the f*** up and to learn some respect; also told him i would gladly judo toss his a** to the floor 15 feet below. In typical fashion he said I will get my dad to kick your ass.
Sure enough after the game Vern Troyer (mini me) no joke guy was 5'3 bald head & his brother who was close to my size get in my face as well as another one of our parents who told the kid to s*** up & began yapping at us how we had the nerve to cus off a 15 yr old. After laughing histerically I looked at the two of them and said "I condone you both for defending his stupidity, not only do you encourage him to not respect his elders, but you support his actions which, I assure you will result in him getting the s*** kicked out of him or end up in his death because he does not know when to shut his yap. I further went to inform then of the ignornance that came out of his mouth and said if they still felt an example needed to be set my buddy & I would gladly wait for them outside. Needless to say they never showed up & I did not see the kid at another one of the games. Once again intelligence & logic found away to solve a problem that fighting would of only further escalated.
My apoligies for taking this a little off topic.
In youth we learn; in age we understand
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you threatened to throw a kid 15' feet down the F***KIN STAIRS!!!
It’s a good thing you didn’t go straight to violence. You my friend are a f'n hypocrite!
Quick question. did you think of turning around and saying "hey young man i realize your into the game, but could you please watch your language as there are little kids in the stands"??
Maybe you would of gotten a little respect back and he would have toned it down. |
Edited by - tbar on 03/24/2011 13:16:24 |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I'd like interject a quick question, related to this topic.
I can understand fans at the NHL level, enjoying this part of the game and from a business perspective I can see it at the NHL level, and I can even understand the players willingness to allow it at the NHL level, because theoretically, although I call BS, it gives the skill guys more space.
but,
Is it really in our best interest as a society to allow it anywhere else though? Would the change not happen more willingly and acceptingly, if we at least took it out of the game outside, the pro level?
It currently is not allowed in Minor hockey it results in a 3 or 5 ganme suspension. I think you are correct if you made the same rule changes to JR. A and WHL etc. etc. eventually the guys that get to the NHL would probably not fight.
Is there a reason to condone it in minor hockey in any way?
Would that not then have the desired, by me anyways, trickle up effect, as opposed to the mimicking of the pros and the trickle down acceptance it has now?
Yes again i believe this is very much the same as your first point.
If you are a fan of the fighting allowed in hockey in any level outside of the pros, is that acceptable?
Also yes, as I have grown up with it, played with it being allowed and gotten in a few fights along the way.
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:27:45
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I ask you why should it matter how old the audience is watching the game? You support fighting when 3- 15yr old watch hockey every night with their parents or older siblings & dont appear to have a concern the impact it plays on them. If you (people of society not yourself) do not have enough class & enough brain cells to refrain from uttering racial slurs in the 21st century, then you simply do not deserve respect or any form of respectible behavior.
As stated the father on my team turned around and requested the kid to check his mouth. When a 15 yr old tells a 45 yr old man to STFU as a 24yr old I take exception to the matter. What is hypocritical about using your size & words as intimidation? If i recall correctly no punches where thrown & no violence resulted from the matter. Coaching Bantam you of all people should no the way a lot of 15 yr old kids are these days & the lack of respect they have for the general public, little own those who paved the way from them.
How would you respond if a 15 yr old uttered the N word if you had a black kid on your team?? Hypocrite would be to beat the kid senseless or hold him down while the other kids parent's did so. I have a hard time believing that someone who enjoys fighting has never told someone in the heat of the game or to keep a younger sibling in check, what they could to them to ensure they shut their mouth or keep their attitude in check
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 03/24/2011 13:45:56 |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 14:05:50
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Mario the point I am trying to make is the first thing you did was resort to Violence, if I’m not mistaken uttering threats fits into this category.
Now being against fighting one would think you wouldn't take that stand with a 15 year old kid! Or anybody for that matter.
And things happen on the ice racial slurs and what not, but I guarantee I have never told the kid or the other teams coach I will physically harm either of them. If it’s a problem I will take it up with the refs.
If I were you I would have asked him to tone it down in a respectful manner and if that didn't work I would speak to security, if none is available I would speak to someone in the organization of the home team and have them take care of the situation. I promise you I would not threaten a 15 year old kid!
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Edited by - tbar on 03/24/2011 14:16:06 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 14:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Mario the point I am trying to make is the first thing you did was resort to Violence, if I’m not mistaken uttering threats fits into this category.
Now being against fighting one would think you wouldn't take that stand with a 15 year old kid! Or anybody for that matter.
And things happen on the ice racial slurs and what not, but I guarantee I have never told the kid or the other teams coach I will physically harm either of them. If it’s a problem I will take it up with the refs.
If I were you I would have asked him to tone it down in a respectful manner and if that didn't work I would speak to security, if none is available I would speak to someone in the organization of the home team and have them take care of the situation. I promise you I would not threaten a 15 year old kid!
No, the first thing he did was use W O R D S .
Words can intimate violence; they can be delivered with violent overtures and intent; but they are not, inherently, violent - they are still just words.
He didn't utter a threat either. He simply put the stupid kid in his place, in a way that his parents would never do . . . apple never falls far from the tree.
That being said, I would have simply told him to shut up, or I would get security/officials to kick him out, I agree the confrontation - especially with an ignoramus such as the one described - was pointless and risky.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 14:41:37
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I do not want this to become a personal matter as I respect & understand your reasoning but I have to ask a couple of viewpoints and we will keep the response respectful.
Why does age have a matter in someone's ignorance? After the age of 13 you are accountible for your actions by law. At 15 you are a lughead if you see families from many different origins around and still have the audacity to make such an appauling comment
Since age is an appareant focus for you in the matter lets break it down. I am 9 yrs his senior, the father he disrespected 30 yrs his senior. The kids father was 20 yrs my senior & their doesn't appear to be any issue their on your behalf with that age discretion.
If a 15 yr old blows up the city, kills someone, or lights a house on fire they are tried as an adult, because they are aware of their actions and have knowledge of the consequences.
When a 15 yr old utters racial profanities in a public place he is fully aware and responsible for the consequences that may follow. So, basically your condoning & justifying his ignorance?
I am rather appauled that you would not take immediate actions (violence not necessarily the outcome) to just allow a kid to verbally assault one of your players.Their parents expect you to be a protector of their children while they are under your super vision.
You ever hear of hearsay & how it is not upheld in court? Take it to the league, what are they going to do? Its your kids word against the other kids, if he denies it nothing can be done.
Clearly, I initially overreacted, but by explaining the situation to the kids dad & uncle and him not coming back to a game the outcome was clearly as intended. The Nhl suspended Chris Simon two games for dropping the N bomb on Mike Grier & you really think your local organization is willing to go down that road with no evidence beyond the complaining child?
I recall their was an incident in Scarborough last yr where a kid on the other team made a racial remark and the opposing coach pulled his team off the ice and refused to play another game the entire yr, unless the league removed the kid from the league.
Racism has no place in society or hockey & if you think taking the politically correct way is appropiate in that matter; yet see fighting as the option to prevent lugheads like Cooke from doing stupidity; clearly we stand on different ends of the rope when it comes to morals & logic
By no means do i condone my actions and can admit i lost my temper, as a result of a touchy subject for me. Hypocritical when his own father viewed his actions as ignorance I say not.
Thank you for using reasoning Slozo
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 03/24/2011 14:47:39 |
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