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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  09:11:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still maintain that if i were a Leafs fan, employee, player, etc, i'd prefer, at this moment in time, to have the package of Seguin, Hamilton and Knight, over Kessel. Yes, Kessel brings them some scoring, but imo, the Leafs are still a ways away from being a serious cup contender and i think that Sequin, in the long term, gives them a better chance at success than Kessel. He's a little younger, and given that Toronto is a few years away from being a serious contender, he's a better fit for their long term plans. Who really cares if Kessel scores 40 and wins them a few extra games if they don't have a good team around him?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  10:00:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is my point Alex, as many Leafs fans have stated their thoughts are Kessel is good to have but tomorrow the other 3 players would be better to have. How can you have both?? How can you defend a trade as TO winning or being a tie if you want the other players in the deal in the long run??

I don't get it.

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/28/2011 10:01:17
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  10:26:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Yes, Kessel brings them some scoring, but imo, the Leafs are still a ways away from being a serious cup contender and i think that Sequin, in the long term, gives them a better chance at success than Kessel



It is interesting that porkchop actually makes a similar observation in the kid line thread, regarding Hall (ie, Kessel) and RHN (ie, Seguin), the scoring winger and the bright young prospect centre. And I quote:

"To mean RNH is the cornerstone to build on in Edmonton, way more complete player then Hall".

To me that says "Hall is great to have, but RHN is the player you really want to build around into the future" Yet, somehow in TOR, Kessel is still the better piece to have.

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/28/2011 10:27:20
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  12:48:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:

Yes, Kessel brings them some scoring, but imo, the Leafs are still a ways away from being a serious cup contender and i think that Sequin, in the long term, gives them a better chance at success than Kessel



It is interesting that porkchop actually makes a similar observation in the kid line thread, regarding Hall (ie, Kessel) and RHN (ie, Seguin), the scoring winger and the bright young prospect centre. And I quote:

"To mean RNH is the cornerstone to build on in Edmonton, way more complete player then Hall".

To me that says "Hall is great to have, but RHN is the player you really want to build around into the future" Yet, somehow in TOR, Kessel is still the better piece to have.



Exactly Nuxfan. But I must point out that I have never said Kessel was the piece to build around. In fact earlier in this thread I said if the Leafs had gotten Seguin they would have built the team differently around him. But I must also add that RNH is heads and tails above Seguin as a complete player now and in the future, that is only my opinion of course.
It actual brings up another reason the Kessel trade is not a success (oops I admitted it). Burke has failed to add the other significant part of the puzzle in TO. Kessel is talented scorer but the Leafs have yet to land the big fish to go along with Kessel. Its great that Burke went out and overpaid to get Kessel but he could have made it worth while had he followed up on it with landing a superstar centerman. Again just my opinion.
Despite the deal, TO is still a better team with Kessel then they were before Kessel and somehow Burke has managed to get some other good prospects/picks into the system. It is what it is and I think that Leaf fans get so defensive about the deal because they still have team that is full of promise and is exciting to watch. Something that can't be said since before the lock out. The deal is done and even if there may have been slightly more promise had there been a Seguin in the system, there is still some promise with the Leafs.

Just to add more controversy to this, cause I like to stir it up. How come the non-leaf fans are only chirpin about the bad deals Burke made. How come there is no comments about the Phaneuf deal which is turning into a huge "win" for the Leafs. The deal that brough in Gardiner from Anaheim which is turning into a huge "win" for the leafs. The deal to bring in Lombardi and Franson for Lebda - Burke hands down "won" that trade.

Beans, my valuation of Knight is based on the scouting reports in his draft year when he was rated to go late 3rd rd or 4th rd but Boston surprised most by taking him in the 2nd. His biggest problem still today is an extremely shakey defensive game. Even today, Knights biggest recognition is being the last pick in the Kessel deal. Most reports from last years London team have him not as good of player without his center from the year previous who just happened to be Kadri. However there must be something said in the fact that Boston liked him so much they signed him this year. I am sure, like most players, if he works hard enough and continues to develop into what the team saw in the first place then Knight will be in the NHL someday.
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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  13:47:36  Reply with Quote
quote:

Just to add more controversy to this, cause I like to stir it up. How come the non-leaf fans are only chirpin about the bad deals Burke made. How come there is no comments about the Phaneuf deal which is turning into a huge "win" for the Leafs. The deal that brough in Gardiner from Anaheim which is turning into a huge "win" for the leafs. The deal to bring in Lombardi and Franson for Lebda - Burke hands down "won" that trade.



In this thread spcifically, it's probably because its a "who won the Kessel trade?" discussion, and not "how many trades has Burke won since he came to Toronto?" discussion.
but in general, i would have to agree with you. Burke has done good on most of the trades he has made since coming to Toronto. but that's for another thread....

As for Kessel, and being a Leafs fan, my biggest concern (and I've stated this before) is that when his contract expires at the end of the 2013-14 season, he will take his UFA status and test the free agent market. thus leaving Toronto fans (and Burke) with absolutely nothing to show for in this trade......assuming of course they don't win the Cup by then.
If/When that happens, I will then declare this trade a total and complete loss for Toronto. And it just might be that very same day that Burke gets fired.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  14:27:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest, you can`t just say kessel may test free agency as if he is the only NHL player to do so...doesn`t this apply to every NHL player ??...this is not even a topic for discussion.

What if the trade wasn`t made and the leafs drafted Seguin...and he walked at UFA status..whats the difference ?? The leafs are still left with nothing.

Alex its almost impossible to honestly answer your question, kessel lifts me right out of my seat with his offensive abilities. The last time i got so pumped up watching a leaf player was when Wendall Clark hit his prime...kessel is a game breaker.

Lets see how Seguin turns out before we jump all over either one of them.....kessel is still only 24 years old, what is his potential ?? No - one really knows ....can he score 40 - 50 goals ?? Can he reach 80 - 90 - 100 points ?? only time will tell.

Beans you say kessel in surely not an elite player....i know its only early into the season...BUT...

Who leads the entire NHL in points ??....kessel

Who leads the entire NHL in goals ??.....kessel

Of course as you say...he is not an elite player...all non - elite players do this all the time...just a common thing for a common average player...

and you say your opinions are not based on leaf bias....

Beans if another player, on a team other than the leafs, was leading the league in both of these categories....would you consider him an elite player ??

Leaf hatred has always existed in a major way...and always will...when it comes to Toronto and Montreal, you either LOVE THEM dearly...or...you HATE THEM severly.

Opinions are always biased when based on either LOVE or HATRED.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  15:07:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Alex its almost impossible to honestly answer your question, kessel lifts me right out of my seat with his offensive abilities. The last time i got so pumped up watching a leaf player was when Wendall Clark hit his prime...kessel is a game breaker.

Lets see how Seguin turns out before we jump all over either one of them.....kessel is still only 24 years old, what is his potential ?? No - one really knows ....can he score 40 - 50 goals ?? Can he reach 80 - 90 - 100 points ?? only time will tell.

Beans you say kessel in surely not an elite player....i know its only early into the season...BUT...

Who leads the entire NHL in points ??....kessel

Who leads the entire NHL in goals ??.....kessel

Of course as you say...he is not an elite player...all non - elite players do this all the time...just a common thing for a common average player...

and you say your opinions are not based on leaf bias....

Beans if another player, on a team other than the leafs, was leading the league in both of these categories....would you consider him an elite player ??

Leaf hatred has always existed in a major way...and always will...when it comes to Toronto and Montreal, you either LOVE THEM dearly...or...you HATE THEM severly.

Opinions are always biased when based on either LOVE or HATRED.



PC.....i understand that Kesse may in fact become a 50G 100pt guy. I don't think he will, but he def could! I won't deny that. However, with the little you know about either of these guys, IF you had to pick Kessel or the package that Boston now has, which would you pick. Consider yourself a GM of an expansion team and you could have Kessel or the 3? Which would you pick. Yes, Kessel MAY become a 100 pt guy, but so could Seguin just as easily. I'm not trying to be a smartass, i'm just looking for a Leaf fan who can admit what's clear to most of the rest of us, that being: Kessel is playing awesome right now, is a joy to watch and is a pure goal scorer that the Leafs were in need of. However, the Leafs did give up, in the end, a little more than they prob should have had to to get a 30-40 goal guy. It looks good now, but longterm i have my doubts that it will end up being an equal trade.

BTW, the comments about Kessel leading the league, etc, which i know were for Beans, are a little misleading. It is just 10 games into the season. I'm sure if you went back over the years and looked 10 games in, there wouldn't always be an elite scorer leading the pack. Keep in mind, Pomminville is sitting in 4th and Marc Andre Bergeron is in 5th. Surely they won't be anywhere near the top five 70 games from now???
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Guest9898
( )

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  15:12:31  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Who leads the entire NHL in points ??....kessel

Who leads the entire NHL in goals ??.....kessel

Of course as you say...he is not an elite player...all non - elite players do this all the time...just a common thing for a common average player...

This is probably wins some sort of award for the silliest response yet. C'mon leaf fans, even you guys gotta laugh at these pathetic statements. Not even 10 games in.

Wow! Next thing you know a parade route is being planned 20 games in. If only you can take off the blue goggles even for a moment. Probably dream in blue too.

OK, what is your definition of elite? For me elite is first player a team would pick if all the players were UFA. Yes this includes forwards, defensemen and goalies. I just don't see Kessel there yet. I'll gladly put him there if he somehow wins the Art Ross and Richard trophy this year.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  15:52:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, I have just one thing to say to your comment about who is leading the league in scoring.

Elite scorer lead the league at the end of the season. Who is leading at the start of the season is completely and utterly irrelevant.

To directly answer your question, if an elite player was leading the league I would call them elite. If a non-elite player was leading the league I would not call them elite simply because they were leading the league. Jason Pominville is #3 in NHL scoring today and I would not call him elite. He has one 80 pt season sandwiched with a ton of 60-70 pt seasons and never has scored 40 or even 30 goals in a season. No Pominville is not an elite scorer.

But Pominville is a great comparison to Kessel. They bring very similar things to the table in regards to overall production. Kessel a better scorer, Pominville a better assist producer. Would Pominville be worth Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight???

I also think that Kessel leaving for free agency is not misleading. It is not important today, but if he does leave as a UFA it will be the finality of the deal and will be relevant at that time. Just so you understand, the difference between Kessel and Seguin is Seguin would be an RFA until he was either 27 yrs old or in the NHL for 7 seasons. Meaning, the Leafs would have had him for at least 7 seasons or until he was 25 before he could leave on his own. Those 'free' three years of an entry level contract of Kessel were used up by the Bruins.

So again, Kessel and his 30 goals for 5 seasons or three players of the same or better caliber as Kessel for 7 years.

I know what math I like better.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  17:16:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, that was The Duke making those statements about leading the league not me, but I think you are asking me to answer your question
I would take the 3 players as is over Kessel, but not as the Leafs are built today. I would take the 3 players over Kessel knowing that the Leafs would have been built in a different direction had this trade not been made. But Burke tried to do a rebuild in a different fashion other then tanking and collecting picks forever. Hence the team is built today with a need for Kessel, there is no scoring power without him, and if it was Seguin today instead of Kessel, well I am sorry I just don't think he provides the scoring power that Kessel does and the Leafs need that because no one else on the current roster for Leafs provides that.
The Leafs are stuck having to make deal for a player that Seguin may turn out to be like. Hopefully Burke can pull off one his rabbit out of the hat trades because if he doesn't then I for one will really not like the Kessel trade because then it is all for not.

To take your scenerio of expansion team, I would take Seguin and the other 2 players for sure and hope to pick up a Kessel or something like that through an expansion draft. But I don't think a player like Kessel would be left unprotected.
Maybe its not a clear answer but its the best I can give you.
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Guest8341
( )

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  20:52:02  Reply with Quote
really this is still a topic up for debate, if kessel gets 100 points this season it's still not worth seguin and hamilton. unless he wins the conn smythe. your on drugs if you think he'll do either
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  22:52:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PC......my apologies, i forgot to type Duke's name on the second half of that last response, the part dealing with the absurd "who's leading the league" comments! I was replying to him in that paragraph.

I appreciate your response and can understand it for the most part. I agree Kessel perhaps brings more to the table at the time of the trade, but like i said before, i still think a rebuilding team needs/needed more than just a scorer to succeed. You have basically agreed with that but i'm not sure you see where i'm going with it. I know you'd love to see the Leafs / Burke somehow get a legit 1st line center to play with Kessel but even with that guy, i still don't see them being the team they strive to be. I'm just saying that as a rebuilding team, they'd have been better off with Seguin and Co, and then find themselves a scorer in the Kessel mold.

Who knows, maybe Seguin fails and becomes a career 60pt guy and we'll revisit this thread and a bunch of us will be feasting on crow? However, considering it was a toss up right down to the wire as to which player (|Hall or Seguin) would be selected 1st overall, it's unlikely. Sure it happens, but let's face it, this guy was highly thought of throughout the NHL and likely will be a "franchise" player, or close to it!

To summarize, i think aquiring a 35 goal scorer, is easier than aquiring a #1 center with all around skills.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2011 :  12:50:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guys did you read the section in my comments regarding kessel leading the league in scoring....where i wrote...

I KNOW ITS ONLY EARLY INTO THE SEASON...BUT

if you didn`t see this then your selective reading...i`m not stupid, i know its only 10 games in but he is off to a terrific start.

Beans how can you fairly compare kessel to Pominville ?? kessel is 24 years old and Pominville will be 29 his next birthday. With ( 26 years old prime - time age ), this is usually consenus among atlethes....kessel is yet to reach his prime.....

How do you know what kessel`s potential is ?? Weve seen Pominville`s potential...he has reached it...kessel`s is unknown, especially since kessel still hasn`t played a full season in Toronto with a bonafied 1st line center.....what would he do if he teamed up for 82 games with a guy with Adam Oates like vision.

Thers a no win debate on this topic for leaf fans anyway...doesn`t matter what kessel does, the trade will always be negative in non - leaf fans eyes.

Just read the previous guest comments....if kessel scores 100 points a season he is still not as good as Seguin and Hamiliton....see what i mean....

Even though its not known how good Seguin will become and even though Hamiliton hasn`t even made the NHL yet.....they are still better than kessel........

How can leaf fans even debate this topic with non - leaf fans having opinions like this ??

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Open_Ice
Rookie



Canada
109 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2011 :  15:24:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
6 pages on this topic? Haven't had a chance to read it all but does that mean somebody actually thinks the Leafs won the trade?

Note: If you think the leafs won this trade then you are a Leafs fan through and through.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2011 :  19:10:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Open_Ice

6 pages on this topic? Haven't had a chance to read it all but does that mean somebody actually thinks the Leafs won the trade?

Note: If you think the leafs won this trade then you are a Leafs fan through and through.



Yep, I am one of them, Open Ice. I think the Leafs won this one so far, as far as I can see.

I am a Leafs fan through and through, sure . . . but I take offence to you insinuation that it implies my hockey knowledge is lacking in some way because I disagree with the majority here.

Especially since, IMHO, I have proven otherwise in my time here.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest9201
( )

Posted - 10/30/2011 :  04:45:45  Reply with Quote
You and other Leaf fans have proven only one thing, and that is you are the most bias fans in the league. If every other person thinks otherwise maybe it time to stop and do some real thinking.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2011 :  09:04:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9201

You and other Leaf fans have proven only one thing, and that is you are the most bias fans in the league. If every other person thinks otherwise maybe it time to stop and do some real thinking.



No, no no guest. You have it all wrong. Everyone is wrong and these Leaf fans are right. Not just about this, about everything. They have not won anything in most of their lifetime's and everyone who is not a Leaf fans hates the Leafs. This makes everyone else haters or in some cases even jealous of the Leafs so anything anyone else says about the Leafs is because of the Leaf hating bias, not their own bias. They get picked on because they are Leaf fans and it has nothing to do their short sighted, ignorant, or ridiculous opinions or when they contradict themselves. Itís not the Leaf fans who are biased, it is everyone else. It's not the Leafs who lost this trade, Boston lost. Can't you see than???


***Sarcasm alert. As some completely missed the last time I made a post heavily-laden with sarcasm it is important to note that the previous statement was completely sarcastic***

***Generalization alert. Yes, I did generalize Leaf fans in one pile and that is unfair. It is very fair for those who deserve it. But guys like Pork chop or Leafs81 can have an intelligent debate with logic and reason. They can appreciate an opposing opinion and respect those who disagree with their opinion. They are every bit as passionate as those other Leaf fans without the ignorance. Guys and Gals like that do not deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the Leaf fans out there***



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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2011 :  13:44:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As of right now you can only base this trade on facts that are known. Out of the 4 players involved only 2 are currently playing in the NHL.

Who the hell knows if Bostons 2 youngersters are going to surely be difference makers to the team. If they turn out to be average or just above average NHL players, then they are simply replaceable parts...players who can be gotten through free agency at any given year...basically they don`t matter,

Fact.....
kessel has 10 goals.....18 points
Fact....
Seguin has 4 goals......10 points

Of course this points to as non - leafers say....one of the worst trades in league history...omg, what a joke.

I`d take either one of these players on my team...whats the difference ??

Anyway off to the big land again....chat again in one month...
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Guest0959
( )

Posted - 10/30/2011 :  22:30:46  Reply with Quote
Without personal attacks, what is a youngerster Duke? Somebody younger than a youngster? Do you mean youngster or young-star?

Why do you keep arguing with "facts"?

Just say your opinion and leave it at that. Consensus among non-Leaf fans is that the Kessel trades was negative for the leafs, while leaf fans will always try to see silver lining.

I definitely would it the leafs were my team.

Fact...Seguin just won a stanley cup

Fact...Kessel didn't

Do you think Phil Kessel thinks that he's on the winning side of the trade?
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  06:42:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0959

Without personal attacks, what is a youngerster Duke? Somebody younger than a youngster? Do you mean youngster or young-star?

Why do you keep arguing with "facts"?

Just say your opinion and leave it at that. Consensus among non-Leaf fans is that the Kessel trades was negative for the leafs, while leaf fans will always try to see silver lining.

I definitely would it the leafs were my team.

Fact...Seguin just won a stanley cup

Fact...Kessel didn't

Do you think Phil Kessel thinks that he's on the winning side of the trade?



Fact: The Boston BRUINS won the cup. Seguin was on their team.

Fact: The Leafs were one of 29 teams that did not win the Stanley Cup. Just because of that fact does not take away any value whatsoever from Kessel or any other of the many very good and great players on all those other teams, many of who have also never won a Stanley Cup.

Fact: A different standard is held for the Leafs than for any other franchise. This is made clearer and clearer to me every single day that I remain a Leafs fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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kessel
Top Prospect



Canada
1 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  07:05:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kessels young and perfect for a team like Toronto I hope he's here for years and years!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  10:41:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Guest0959

Without personal attacks, what is a youngerster Duke? Somebody younger than a youngster? Do you mean youngster or young-star?

Why do you keep arguing with "facts"?

Just say your opinion and leave it at that. Consensus among non-Leaf fans is that the Kessel trades was negative for the leafs, while leaf fans will always try to see silver lining.

I definitely would it the leafs were my team.

Fact...Seguin just won a stanley cup

Fact...Kessel didn't

Do you think Phil Kessel thinks that he's on the winning side of the trade?



Fact: The Boston BRUINS won the cup. Seguin was on their team.

Fact: The Leafs were one of 29 teams that did not win the Stanley Cup. Just because of that fact does not take away any value whatsoever from Kessel or any other of the many very good and great players on all those other teams, many of who have also never won a Stanley Cup.

Fact: A different standard is held for the Leafs than for any other franchise. This is made clearer and clearer to me every single day that I remain a Leafs fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Umm, let's try not to make factual statements about opinions. There is nothing factual about this specific statement. It is an opinion. Let me contrast for everyone.


Opinion - The Leafs are held to a different standard than any other team. Leaf fans expect far less from their players to call them 'elite' while Non-Leaf fans are not as likely to recognize positive qualities from Leaf players.


Fact - I throw up in my mouth every time I read a post from a Leaf fan complaining about how other people view the Leafs.


See the difference??? One is based on thought and idea and can not be proven one way or the other. The other is based on actual events and can be proven definitively.

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/31/2011 10:42:11
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  12:40:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Opinion - The Leafs are held to a different standard than any other team. Leaf fans expect far less from their players to call them 'elite' while Non-Leaf fans are not as likely to recognize positive qualities from Leaf players.


Fact - I throw up in my mouth every time I read a post from a Leaf fan complaining about how other people view the Leafs.




F'ing Brilliant!!!

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2012.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  12:47:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is easily the best thread on the site. Can we make a poll to see which thread would win "best thread"?

Have you guys noticed that as the season wears on, more and more people are choosing "Toronto" as their answer to the original poll question: Who won the Phil Kessel trade?

LOL.

Somebody said that, "you must be a Leafs' fan through and through if you think the Kessel trade favoured the Leafs"

Ummm... No. I'm not a Leafs' fan. I think the Leafs came out of this trade okay.

Somebody else said, "Fact: Seguin won a cup, Fact: Kessel didn't."

That is the silliest argument of all time. How many times do we have to write:

The trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. The Trade was Kessel for draft picks.

Now, this brings up the whole source of the debate. Some members are discussing the trade as being Kessel vs. Seguin ++. Others are discussing Kessel vs. draft picks. Hence, we have two debates raging for the price of one.

Have I said already that I love this thread?

Anyway. Fine. You want to compare Kessel with Seguin++. Let's do that.

To Boston:

Tyler Seguin is an excellent young player who has a lot of potential. He is currently leading the Bruins in Pts. He has great feet. His skating is excellent. He has a quick shot, and he is a clutch player. He is fantastic. No doubt about it.

Dougie Hamilton and Knight (?) haven't played a single game in the NHL. At this moment, they have proven exactly nothing. I don't even think that they can be taken into consideration in this trade. They are prospects. It literally could be any prospect. Every team has tons of prospects. Big deal. So Hamilton is apparently big and strong. Who cares. He hasn't played a game in the NHL yet. Let's see how he adjusts to the big leagues. There are a huge percentage of players who never do.

To Toronto:

Phil Kessel. The man. The current NHL scoring leader. The spark in Toronto's streak. The octane driving the Toronto train leading the parade. The biggest knock against him is that he is streaky and inconsistent. I disagree. I love the way he plays.
Here are some good points:
Plenty of emotion.
He wants to win.
He backchecks hard.
He is a super-hard skater.
He isn't afraid of going hard to the net.
He's tough in the corners.
He is an expert of the saucer-pass.
He has a great one-timer.
His wrist shot might be the best in the game.

Oh, and did I mention that he IS leading the league in scoring.

No, he hasn't won a Cup. Wow. What a lame argument. Neither has Ovechkin. Is Seguin also better than Ovechkin?

But here's a good point for you Seguin fans out there to debate: Kessel is positively the heart and soul of his team. The leader. The go-to guy. The Leafs will live and die by Kessel.

You can't say the same about Seguin. He's good. But he isn't the heart and soul. Will he be one day? Tough to say. But at the moment, right now, it is very clear that Kessel is worth more to his team than Seguin is to his.

Kessel gives an identity to Toronto. A face to the franchise. A reason to watch games. He fills the stands and gives them a winning attitude.


Right now, is there another player in the entire league who is worth more to his team than Kessel?





"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:02:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

As of right now you can only base this trade on facts that are known. Out of the 4 players involved only 2 are currently playing in the NHL.

Who the hell knows if Bostons 2 youngersters are going to surely be difference makers to the team. If they turn out to be average or just above average NHL players, then they are simply replaceable parts...players who can be gotten through free agency at any given year...basically they don`t matter,

Fact.....
kessel has 10 goals.....18 points
Fact....
Seguin has 4 goals......10 points

Of course this points to as non - leafers say....one of the worst trades in league history...omg, what a joke.




Do you not get it Duke? Do you understand what your comments imply? Here, lemme explain it, again.....

If the Blackhawks were to trade David Bolland to the Panthers for Florida's next 10 first rounders and Bolland went on to amass a grand total of 45 points for the year, the Panthers win this trade, because they have the best player! This is basically what your comments imply.

Remind me not to hire you as my GM if i ever own a team!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:03:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fresh prospective on the Kessel vs Picks debate CrockOShight. It appeared to have been heavily in favour of the Bruins, at the time of the trade, but appears as of the short term, it is favouring the Leafs or at least leveling in value. Points leaders will jostle all year long, that much I know. Unless your picking Karlson as the Assists leader and Spezza for #3 for points at year end. The season does not end today. However, the Leafs have got full value out of Kessel in my opinion and have definately surpassed what I expected of this trade.

I dont by any mean call this a loss for the Bruins, who where under the crunch salary wise and needed the future infusion of young inexpensive talent. Who would have thought they would receive such high draft positioning due to the utter tanking of the Leafs 2008-2010 and a good lottery positioning. Seguin is definitely living up to his billing as the better all around player from his draft year and is now filling out his offensive potential. I am certain Boston will see value in the other 2 draft picks who havent played NHL calibre games yet.

Im not calling this a win or loss, how bout both teams got exactly what they wanted.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:13:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sniff!! Sniff!!

Is it just me, or does it smell like someone's got a huge load of man-crush just waiting to give up?

That was some excellent one -handed typing going on there, as I think we all have a pretty good idea where the other hand was when you were professing your love of all things Phil!!

Please take that with the humorous teasing it was intended with, I realize you are newer here, and may not realize I have trouble helping myself when these doors of opportunity swing wide.

I mentioned it way early in this thread and what's getting lost is the comparisons being nothing to do with the original question.

"Who won the Phil Kessel Trade?"

The Leafs got an identity player who right now is an exciting player to watch who gives the Leafs instant credibility, something they had been lacking the last couple years.

The Bruins got 3 high draft picks for a player they couldn't afford to keep, and who was not to be any part of their plans going forward as was. One of the draft picks had an immediate impact, albeit of arguable importance, but an impact all the same.

One team got momentum and identity, no small feat, the other got a Stanley Cup.

I for one, do not feel it was bad trade for either team and a good trade for both, for what they looking for at the time, but again, one got a Stanley Cup, how does one argue that team didn't end up better?

Duke will say that if Phil were a Bruin he would have...yada yada yada...

We'll never know as that is the world of what ifs. The facts(a point being bandied about for some reason), is that Boston won a cup and Toronto is improving. At this point, a cup must certainly outweigh, improving, IMO.
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Guest4350
( )

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:24:14  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Right now, is there another player in the entire league who is worth more to his team than Kessel?


Carey Price
Jason Spezza
Anze Kopitar
Shea Weber
John Tavares

Just to name a few. Surprisingly there are other teams in the league other than the Leafs. Can you believe that? Life outside the centre of the universe, preposterous.

As for your comment about Phil's positive qualities, there may be some disagreement. Let's see, back checking - yup he does it hard, but he sure isn't known for being very effective at it.

Saucer passing, when I think of passing he isn't on my mind though I'm sure Phil can expertly saucer pass with the best of them, there are many many others at that level that can do it better. Much better.

Glad you are happy with the Kessel trade today. Write back here when Phil's inconsistency shows up and he is held off the board for 10 straight games.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:37:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock, this may be your favorite thread, but your contribution to it just became my favorite part of the thread! And sorry, all for the wrong reasons!


quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Ummm... No. I'm not a Leafs' fan. I think the Leafs came out of this trade okay.


"Not a Leafs fan"? You sure? Lol, you may not be, but after reading the rest of your post, you sure as hell do have a serious man crush on Phil!!!


quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Anyway. Fine. You want to compare Kessel with Seguin++. Let's do that.

To Boston:

Tyler Seguin is an excellent young player who has a lot of potential. He is currently leading the Bruins in Pts. He has great feet. His skating is excellent. He has a quick shot, and he is a clutch player. He is fantastic. No doubt about it.

Dougie Hamilton and Knight (?) haven't played a single game in the NHL. At this moment, they have proven exactly nothing. I don't even think that they can be taken into consideration in this trade. They are prospects. It literally could be any prospect. Every team has tons of prospects. Big deal. So Hamilton is apparently big and strong. Who cares. He hasn't played a game in the NHL yet. Let's see how he adjusts to the big leagues. There are a huge percentage of players who never do.


*See my post to Duke (above). How you can simply disregard a prospect is beyond me. IF they're so invaluable as to not count in a trade, maybe teams shouldn't bother drafting guys? I mean, there worthless, right?


quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
To Toronto:

Phil Kessel. The man. The current NHL scoring leader. The spark in Toronto's streak. The octane driving the Toronto train leading the parade. The biggest knock against him is that he is streaky and inconsistent. I disagree. I love the way he plays.
Here are some good points:
Plenty of emotion.
He wants to win.
He backchecks hard.
He is a super-hard skater.
He isn't afraid of going hard to the net.
He's tough in the corners.
He is an expert of the saucer-pass.
He has a great one-timer.
His wrist shot might be the best in the game.

Oh, and did I mention that he IS leading the league in scoring.



You've just described pretty much the prototypical "perfect hockey player". Sorry, but i don't think Kessel is that. Your "expert of the saucer pass" quote caused me much stomach pain......from hysterical laughing!


quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
No, he hasn't won a Cup. Wow. What a lame argument. Neither has Ovechkin. Is Seguin also better than Ovechkin?

I need not comment on this as i'm one of the ones who doesn't put much weight if any into the Cup ring Seguin possesses, as far as evaluating this trade.

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
But here's a good point for you Seguin fans out there to debate: Kessel is positively the heart and soul of his team. The leader. The go-to guy. The Leafs will live and die by Kessel.


This is very true, unfortunately, he is what you've described, because of the lack of top end talent on the frickin' roster!!! He gets the nod by default!!!

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
You can't say the same about Seguin. He's good. But he isn't the heart and soul. Will he be one day? Tough to say. But at the moment, right now, it is very clear that Kessel is worth more to his team than Seguin is to his.

No, Seguin is not the "heart and soul" of the Bruins. He need not be with a solid roster like the Bruins have! In fact, Kessel prob is more valuable to his team at this point, but again, that has more to do with the lack of quality wearing the Leaf than it does Kessel being a stud!

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Kessel gives an identity to Toronto. A face to the franchise. A reason to watch games. He fills the stands and gives them a winning attitude. [

Right now, is there another player in the entire league who is worth more to his team than Kessel?





Is Kessel the more valuable to his team right now? Absolutely! But that's no different that saying he's more valuable to the Leafs than:

Toews is to the Hawks
Malkin is to the Pens
Getzlaf is to the Ducks
etc....you see where i'm going with this?

Because the Hawks, Pens and Ducks have far more high end talent around their team, they could theoretcally lose Toews/Malkin/Getzlaf meaning Kessel technically is more valuable to the Leafs than they are to their teams? However, i think you'd be hard pressed to find a sane human being who would choose Kessel over any of these 3?

What i think most of you (those who think the Leafs have won or are winning this trade) fail to see is the true value in high draft picks / prospects. First off, and most of you have admitted this, Burke didn't expect the pick that landed Seguin to be so high. I'm pretty sure most of you would admit that he prob wouldn't have made that trade if he'd known it was gonna be #2 overall! That right there leads me to believe that the Bruins got some serious value for Kessel, especially since they pretty much had to deal him!

Secondly, just because a guy has yet to play in the NHL, doesn't simply disqualify him from being worth something! True, some completely fail. But, many don't. Here's the thing, had Ottawa traded the pick that landed them Alexander Daigle, for some 3rd line checker and a bag of pucks, there would have been a huge uproar about how they got burned! Then, as we all know, as Daigle failed, suddenly the trade may not have looked so bad. BUT, at the time of the trade, most would agree that Ottawa got the worst of the deal! This same thing could happen with this deal. Who knows, Kessel could score 50+ for the next decade for all we know, and if he does, i'll be the first to say, "wow, in the end, Toronto won that deal"! My point is though, that as of now, even with Kessel playing as well as he is, i'd take what the Bruins got over him in a second. When the deal first went down, i thought the Bruins got the edge. When the pick became #2 overall, i thought they basically killed them in the deal. Now, as Kessel's play has improved, i still think the B's won, but not in as much of a landslide as before. AND, when Hamilton and Knight make the NHL, my opinion may yet sway one way or the other?

Complicated i know, but evaluating trades is often like this.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  13:39:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Right now, is there another player in the entire league who is worth more to his team than Kessel?


I just wanted to answer this one:

Yep.

Khabibulin is one. Leads the league in GAA and save %. Edmonton would not be in 2nd overall without him in net.

Lehtonen is another, leading the NHL in wins, faced more shots than any other goalie. He is worth everything to Dallas right now.

How about Jonathon Quick and Pekka Rinne with their performances this season and the success of their teams because of those performances?


Goaltenders are almost always the most important player on any team.


If you would like to look as some skaters who have pushed their team ahead who are not named Phil Kessel, how about Jason Spezza, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Claude Giroux and Tomas Vanek?? All have all been pretty important to their teams.


Here is a great example of the ability to over-estimate the performance of a player. Kessel is leading the league in goals (by 1) and leading the league in pts (by 3). We better wrap up that Hart Trophy and get it ready for him, eh???
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  16:16:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo says,

"Fact: The Boston BRUINS won the cup. Seguin was on their team."


Slozo, I respect your different opinion than me on this thread, but that isn't quite the whole story of the "Fact." Aside from adding a happy face, I would word it:

Fact: The Boston BRUINS won the Cup . Seguin came up huge in an important game in the semi-finals when the Bruins were missing one of, if not their best, forwards.

Now, if you like, you can add something like "(something that perhaps Phil would have done in a Bruins uniform)" but please realize that this would mean that the statement is no longer totally a FACT as the added part would be an OPINION. This is actually the essence of the argument against the Dukes and others on here who rant and rave about my Cup point (I say "my" because it is sometimes different than others who mention the Cup on here) being childish and ridiculous. Frankly, such ranters and ravers are simply not thinking logically, in this wild and crazy guy's opinion anyway.


Then, Fat Elvis (best name on this site by far by the way) says,

"The facts (a point being bandied about for some reason), is that Boston won a cup and Toronto is improving. At this point, a cup must certainly outweigh, improving, IMO."

I generally agree with everything in Fat Elvis's posts on this thread (especially his comments about the effect of the trade on the "team"), but again, I think the point about the CONTRIBUTION to the Cup (i.e., the direct relation between the trade and the Cup) needs to be emphasized more in his statement above, as that is what makes this argument fly, not the mere fact of the Cup.

Edited by - andyhack on 10/31/2011 16:18:29
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1637 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  16:48:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh man. I can't believe it. I just drafted Kessel in my pool. 3rd pick! aaaacckkk!!!

I feel like the dog in the animated film "Up". I'm doing just fine, life is good and all of a sudden..."SQUIRREL!!"...."KESSEL!!"

Worse yet, I now have to cheer for a Leaf.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  17:22:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't worry Leigh it won't kill ya. Now if we can just recruit Beans and those other two Nuck fans (you know who I am referring to) and then us Leaf fans can start winning some arguements.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  18:16:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andyhack and Fat Elvis...Boston winning a stanley cup is not related to the value of kessel vs Seguin. Thats not what this thread is about ( Bostons stanley cup )...its who won the kessel trade.

People keep bring up Seguins 1 big game....sure he did...have you people considered the fact that if kessel was there scoring more consistently for the Bruins maybe they wouldn`t have so desperately needed that 1 big game ??

What kind of comment is ....Seguin won a stanley cup but kessel didn`t ?? my god what on earth has this to do with this thread.

People are jumping all over Crock for his points...maybe you just don`t like some points he brought up, a fresh insight.

The only reason i felt so strongly about this thread in the first place was the fact that some non - leafers made comments like...one of the worst trades in league history...
my god people give Phil Kessel some credit...who the hell do you think he is ? Hal Gill or something ??

10 first rounders Alex...is that what i`m implying ??
Leafs trade 2 first rounders to get one of the most exciting young players to watch in the game today and you insinuate i`d trade 10 first rounders to get a 40 goal scorer...whats wrong with you people ?? What do you think a player like kessel is worth ?

Kessel was a 1st round...5th overall pick...Do you think as a GM you can get this kind of player for 1 only 1st round pick ??.....and don`t forget that at the time of the trade P. Chill wasn`t sure what he was getting in return...the leafs finished close to the middle of the pack for several years before the kessel deal collapse year which gave Boston Seguin.

Every1 is quick to jump all over Burke for the way this turned out because he gambled and Boston came out great....what if Toronto finished 15th , 16th, 17th, 18th or so...would P. Chill then maybe be under fire for possibly drafting a not so great pick ??

No - one speaks about his risk in this trade from his side. If the leafs finished in the standings where they did in the previous 2 - 3 years before the kessel trade, Boston would have had 2 mid - round picks...do you think kessel at the time ( a PROVEN GOAL SCORING first round 5th overall pick ) was worth 2 mid - round picks ??...i sure do.....and i believe this is what P. Chill was expecting, but sure got a big bonus with a second overall pick.

Alex i believe prospects are a teams future...without them a team has nothing. BUT they are what they are, prospects, they have proven nothing until they show in in the big time.

Thers no need for either of us to write a list of HIGH Busted draft picks...or to make a list of Zetterburgs and Datsyuk type players. They are what they are before they prove themselves in the league, prospects.

Brian Burke is a gambler and risk taker....sometimes this pays off, other times it doesn`t. This time he gave up picks i`m sure he would love to still have had draft day, but i`m sure he never dreamth they would be so valuable.

Anyway, i`d rather have a GM like Burke running my team than some old stand pat guy who is afraid to pull the trigger on a deal. He has made numerous great moves rebuilding the leafs.

That Edm. GM is sure doing a great job out there isn`t he ??
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  18:44:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

Don't worry Leigh it won't kill ya. Now if we can just recruit Beans and those other two Nuck fans (you know who I am referring to) and then us Leaf fans can start winning some arguements.



Porkchop - I'm actually in the same boat as Leigh, I have Kessel in 2 of 4 pools myself, and cheer for him every time he plays. I like the guy, he's a good at what he does, and was an appropriate pick for me in the 6th or 7th round or wherever I got him. He's definitely over-achieving for me right now, but I'll take it as long as it lasts.

However, I still do not believe that TOR won that trade.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  19:36:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am not sure if this is ironic or poetic justice but I too have Kessel in one of my pools and my wife picked him in another. He has been performing magically. I find myself cheering for high scoring Leaf loses but it has turned out to be mostly high scoring Leaf wins.

Unfortunately, the FACT that I have Kessel in my pool does not make me think the trade is any better.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  19:52:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Andyhack and Fat Elvis...Boston winning a stanley cup is not related to the value of kessel vs Seguin. Thats not what this thread is about ( Bostons stanley cup )...its who won the kessel trade.

What kind of comment is ....Seguin won a stanley cup but kessel didn`t ?? my god what on earth has this to do with this thread.



Duke - you just don't get it!

I'd say "with all due respect," but you don't even seem to be really reading (let alone thinking about) the content of the posts by Fat Elvis and me. For example, for my point about actual results til now, you come back with,

"People keep bring up Seguins 1 big game....sure he did...have you people considered the fact that if kessel was there scoring more consistently for the Bruins maybe they wouldn`t have so desperately needed that 1 big game ??"

I mean, what type of response is that to a post that stresses the importance of actual results? And moreover, you say "have you people considered the fact..."! Again, completely missing the point. What frigg'n fact? It's called a "possibility" Duke! Just speculation! But to answer your question, I have considered your point and decided that, even though it is ultimately IRRELEVANT, one can also respond to it simply by saying that at some point every team (even a Dynasty team like the Habs of the 70s) has key moments where they need clutch performances even if the DIONNE-LIKE Phil Kessel is on your team. I mean, returning to actual results again, in 2009 Phil had a fine playoff offensively (point per game), but when push came to shove in Game 7 against the Hurricaines, with a basically healthy Bruins lineup (most notably, including Bergy), where was Kessel's huge game? He had an assist, which is okay, but he did NOT come up huge! That's a fact. I am not saying I dismiss hypotheticals all together, but I draw more conclusions out of that 2009 fact than I do out of any hypothetical that is tossed around here about Phil in a Bs uniform in 2011.

And again, my comments are about the contribution to the Cup more than the Cup itself *. So your comment above ridiculing "Seguin won a stanley cup but kessel didn`t " isn't
even on target. I mean if you're going to argue against me, argue against what I am saying.

* (though there is an interesting additional argument a buddy of mine raised the other day that Phil simply didn't fit well with Julien and that by simply removing him, as offensively productive as he may be, the Bruins gained in their team needs)
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2011 :  21:36:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Andyhack and Fat Elvis...Boston winning a stanley cup is not related to the value of kessel vs Seguin. Thats not what this thread is about ( Bostons stanley cup )...its who won the kessel trade.

Sounds like a bit of an oxymoronic statement I think, especially without the oxy part.

People keep bring up Seguins 1 big game....sure he did...have you people considered the fact that if kessel was there scoring more consistently for the Bruins maybe they wouldn`t have so desperately needed that 1 big game ??

Did you know that if my Auntie Martha had a penis she'd actually be my Uncle Marty?

What kind of comment is ....Seguin won a stanley cup but kessel didn`t ?? my god what on earth has this to do with this thread.

If we replace Seguin with Boston and Kessel with Toronto....kinda had relevance then doesn't it?

People are jumping all over Crock for his points...maybe you just don`t like some points he brought up, a fresh insight.

Good points agreed, could have done without the Kesselrection though!

The only reason i felt so strongly about this thread in the first place was the fact that some non - leafers made comments like...one of the worst trades in league history...
my god people give Phil Kessel some credit...who the hell do you think he is ? Hal Gill or something ??

And some of us didn't say worst, and actually a good trade for Toronto, yet get a ride on the pity pony that is the misunderstood Leaf fan, go figure.

10 first rounders Alex...is that what i`m implying ??
Leafs trade 2 first rounders to get one of the most exciting young players to watch in the game today and you insinuate i`d trade 10 first rounders to get a 40 goal scorer...whats wrong with you people ?? What do you think a player like kessel is worth ?

Pickles on a rock in Spain, make the steak a tough chew. There, we're even, mine makes as much sense as yours

Kessel was a 1st round...5th overall pick...Do you think as a GM you can get this kind of player for 1 only 1st round pick ??.....and don`t forget that at the time of the trade P. Chill wasn`t sure what he was getting in return...the leafs finished close to the middle of the pack for several years before the kessel deal collapse year which gave Boston Seguin.

Actually, I think the only people surprised by their slide may have been you.........and Hanley

Every1 is quick to jump all over Burke for the way this turned out because he gambled and Boston came out great....what if Toronto finished 15th , 16th, 17th, 18th or so...would P. Chill then maybe be under fire for possibly drafting a not so great pick ??

Not all of us are saying Burke did a bad job with this trade, but thanks for putting the donkey in assumptions

No - one speaks about his risk in this trade from his side. If the leafs finished in the standings where they did in the previous 2 - 3 years before the kessel trade, Boston would have had 2 mid - round picks...do you think kessel at the time ( a PROVEN GOAL SCORING first round 5th overall pick ) was worth 2 mid - round picks ??...i sure do.....and i believe this is what P. Chill was expecting, but sure got a big bonus with a second overall pick.

Okay, okay we get it, we'll start calling Burke, Indiana, and buy him a hat and whip, risk taker that he is

Alex i believe prospects are a teams future...without them a team has nothing. BUT they are what they are, prospects, they have proven nothing until they show in in the big time.

Soooo, Seguin is proven then???, I'm confused

Thers no need for either of us to write a list of HIGH Busted draft picks...or to make a list of Zetterburgs and Datsyuk type players. They are what they are before they prove themselves in the league, prospects.

Unless of course it's an attempt to prove an opinion right, as long as one doesn't mind getting it proven wrong? Been there and done that in this thread

Brian Burke is a gambler and risk taker....sometimes this pays off, other times it doesn`t. This time he gave up picks i`m sure he would love to still have had draft day, but i`m sure he never dreamth they would be so valuable.

But, but, but Evel Burkenievel won this trade dammit!!!!

Anyway, i`d rather have a GM like Burke running my team than some old stand pat guy who is afraid to pull the trigger on a deal. He has made numerous great moves rebuilding the leafs.

It's the Leafs, after the years of John Ferguson Jr, digging up Ballard for a 'Weekend at Bernies' shtick, would have been an improvement

That Edm. GM is sure doing a great job out there isn`t he ??

Yes, yes he is


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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2011 :  00:15:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Fresh prospective on the Kessel vs Picks debate CrockOShight. It appeared to have been heavily in favour of the Bruins, at the time of the trade, but appears as of the short term, it is favouring the Leafs or at least leveling in value. Points leaders will jostle all year long, that much I know. Unless your picking Karlson as the Assists leader and Spezza for #3 for points at year end. The season does not end today. However, the Leafs have got full value out of Kessel in my opinion and have definately surpassed what I expected of this trade.

I dont by any mean call this a loss for the Bruins, who where under the crunch salary wise and needed the future infusion of young inexpensive talent. Who would have thought they would receive such high draft positioning due to the utter tanking of the Leafs 2008-2010 and a good lottery positioning. Seguin is definitely living up to his billing as the better all around player from his draft year and is now filling out his offensive potential. I am certain Boston will see value in the other 2 draft picks who havent played NHL calibre games yet.

Im not calling this a win or loss, how bout both teams got exactly what they wanted.



Just checking in after a few Monday Night Football beers, and came across this post, amongst others. This one stood out. However, the comment about them both getting what they needed, is a little skewed. Sure, TO needed a scorer, and got one. Boston, didn't exactly "need" picks, but sure as hell took'em. But, keep in mind, Boston pretty much HAD to trade Kessel, therefore, "theoretically" diminishing his value, yet, still got some good return.

Question really is, who won the trade? Who so far is winning the trade, or who WILL win the trade???

Originally, Boston won the trade. Now, it's a lot more "even". In the future, i think Boston will be laughing. BUT, that's just MY OPINION!!!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2011 :  03:42:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was about time for a FER post with some classic FER statements.
"Pickles on a rock in Spain". FER I hope you don't mind if I steal that to explain irrelevance to people.

I will also smile just a little every Leaf game that Beans and Alex do actually cheer, even a little bit for the Leafs.

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