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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2007 : 11:31:32
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I was watching last days thriller between T.O. and the jokes and I couldn't help but notice sid spends as much time on his knees during a game as he does after the game(how else can you explain that lipstick he wears hahahahaha). Ever shot he took he was always taking a knee.. I don't understand this. Is he just trying to get H.O.N. every game? He is such a show-boat . I will give him props for that kick to the stick goal...even though he wound up on his knees(he did get tripped up there)......But it just looks pathetic having him diving around everywhere.
I HATE CROSBY
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 12:13:20
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I watched part of the game as well. I noticed one point in the game, Pitt was no the offensive, and they lost the put behind the net and as Toronto was clearing the zone, Crosby got bumped and was on his ass beside the net. He swiped at an imaginary puck on the ice and pouted like a little 6 year old.
It was funny.
And that skate to the stick goal was nice. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 14:36:04
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Ya, I saw that yesterday too. Notice once he had an open net, went on his knee, and missed the net . He is trying to be too fancy, but it makes him look stupid. And when he was hitting the inaginarly puck from his ass I almost laughed to death.
Long Live Leafs Nation!! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 16:49:00
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| Well Brett Hull's patented one-timer was usually done on one knee. Look how many goals he has. I honestly don't care how he wants to score. If it goes in, it counts, that's all that matters. I also watched the game but didn't notice that, I guess I just don't watch Sidney as much as I watch the game. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 17:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Well Brett Hull's patented one-timer was usually done on one knee. Look how many goals he has. I honestly don't care how he wants to score. If it goes in, it counts, that's all that matters.
I was going to say something along those lines but you beat me to it. Who really care how a palyer scores, what ever works for him.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Get The Towels Out Guys PLAYOFFS!!! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 17:03:59
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| I've been watching Crosby every chance i get and have also noticed the one knee deal. I think there is a method to his madness though. It's not for show either. I think he does it to minimize the chance that the puck will get past him on a less than perfect pass. So in effect he is playing goal for a moment. If the pass hits his leg or body it stops and falls at his feet or stick instead of off in the corner out of reach. I've seen it happen a few times now. Thoughts? |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 17:09:07
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Look at Darcy Tucker this year. I can see what Willus is saying and in theory it sounds smart. Tucks is doing the same thing and obviously it works well for him so this one-knee thing may not be Sid showing of but him being a really smart hockey player.
Long Live Leafs Nation!! |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 18:21:00
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Well, I mainly made this topic to poke fun at his hooker lips and his bedtime activities.........But hull didn't do that play 15 times a game....some of his more memorable goals were scored like that, but it wasn't his go to move.....Going down like that takes you out of the play, and makes you look like a flamer...Willus3, your hypothesis is a JOKE....have you ever been to an NHL game? Do you know how fast it is? There isn't usually much time to go down on a knee, boot it to your stick and then dipsy doodle around...If that happens, it's more luck than anything (or bad defense).
I HATE CROSBY |
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Guest9682
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Posted - 04/01/2007 : 18:22:13
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| The lengths some people will go to in an attempt to find fault with Crosby's game is either laughable or sad, I'm not sure which. The guy is a dynamic, very talented player, the type who doesn't come along very often. He's going to win the scoring race in only his second year in the league; instead of coming up with increasingly lame reasons to discredit him, why not just enjoy the talents of a guy who's likely to be a very, very good player for a very long time. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 18:46:46
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Well, I mainly made this topic to poke fun at his hooker lips and his bedtime activities.........But hull didn't do that play 15 times a game....some of his more memorable goals were scored like that, but it wasn't his go to move.....Going down like that takes you out of the play, and makes you look like a flamer...Willus3, your hypothesis is a JOKE....have you ever been to an NHL game? Do you know how fast it is? There isn't usually much time to go down on a knee, boot it to your stick and then dipsy doodle around...If that happens, it's more luck than anything (or bad defense).
I HATE CROSBY
Son, i was going to games before you were a horny thought in your dads head. BTW have you always been a bigot and a xenophobe? Your gay comments and innuendo are soooo 1988. But hey, you be who you wanna be sport.
Seems to me he had enough time in that game against TO to kick it to his skate and score. If he's got time to do that....
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 19:47:25
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Guys tone down the personal comments. There's no need for them and they're way off topic.
9682, you make good points. I think the fact that one must go so deep to find any sort of a flaw in his game is a backhanded compliment to his game. You know I bet someone in the world doesn't like the way Crosby ties his shoes. |
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 20:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9682
The lengths some people will go to in an attempt to find fault with Crosby's game is either laughable or sad, I'm not sure which. The guy is a dynamic, very talented player, the type who doesn't come along very often. He's going to win the scoring race in only his second year in the league; instead of coming up with increasingly lame reasons to discredit him, why not just enjoy the talents of a guy who's likely to be a very, very good player for a very long time.
Dude you really need an account
Winners never Quit and Quitters never win
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 21:38:30
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IHC is so blinded by hate that he couldn't even consider there is a reason for being on a knee for a quick turn or pass or shot.
Here's an example:
Look at his assist the first time he played the Capitols last year. He was on a knee for the pass, yes, but he was using the knee as a pivot. Skates are designed to create friction with the ice, that's how you move on it. Socks have significantly less friction, allowing for a better rotating pivot.
It's the second highlight here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uyUQ-7rxwFA |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 22:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
IHC is so blinded by hate that he couldn't even consider there is a reason for being on a knee for a quick turn or pass or shot.
Here's an example:
Look at his assist the first time he played the Capitols last year. He was on a knee for the pass, yes, but he was using the knee as a pivot. Skates are designed to create friction with the ice, that's how you move on it. Socks have significantly less friction, allowing for a better rotating pivot.
It's the second highlight here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uyUQ-7rxwFA
Don't give me a lecture on how hockey is played...I could light you up any day any time.......
I'm obviously not going to watch another sid highlight.......All I'd have to do is put it on TSN
Finally, I agree that SOMETIMES it's a good call to go down on a knee(eg, if you're a goalie hahahahaha), my complaint is he does it too much.....that's a good way to get knocked out (remember Naslund?)
I HATE CROSBY |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 07:17:15
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| I dunno, I gotta be honest IHC, I think you're reaching. I agree, he's a bit of a whiner, but he'll grow out of it just like Gretz did. In fact, I think he's pretty mature for his age given the situation, the media attention, the constant public scrutiny. He's doing just fine there. On top of that, every expectation of him has either been matched or exceeded. He's on pace for 125 points. Compare that to Gretz - League-wide scoring is down 25% from the 80's and Sid's still close to matching Gretz's 2nd year numbers. Now, I don't think Sid has a chance of breaking Gretz's scoring records (unless they make the nets bigger - here's hoping they don't!). But by the time his career ends, unless something out of the ordinary happens, I think he'll be regarded as one of the greats. |
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Guest4963
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Posted - 04/02/2007 : 08:01:07
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quote:
Don't give me a lecture on how hockey is played...I could light you up any day any time.......
I'm obviously not going to watch another sid highlight.......All I'd have to do is put it on TSN
Finally, I agree that SOMETIMES it's a good call to go down on a knee(eg, if you're a goalie hahahahaha), my complaint is he does it too much.....that's a good way to get knocked out (remember Naslund?)
I HATE CROSBY
"Don't give me a lecture..." Who the hell do you think you are, Don Cherry". It's people like you who make me sick. You think you know everything about hockey but all you do is bitch about players that have the talent you could only dream about. For your information, anyone who can be the leading scorer in the NHL at 19 is bound to have a few quirks about them. Gretzky was one of the biggest whiners when he first started out. I suppose you hate him to. Why don't you do us all a favor and take some stress management therapy. Have a great day LOSER!! |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/02/2007 09:22:55 |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 09:23:37
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| GUYS STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS OR I LOCK THE THREAD. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 10:36:00
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IHC does have some pretty "interesting" posts on here, but I think the over all point is that it appears to some of us that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are. I agree with that.
I personally think that there are a number of players in the league who are better than Crosby. Thorton, Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Hossa, Sakic just to name a few. And that doesn't include defensemen.
I don't like him through association. I am sick of seeing him on TSN every 5 minutes for stupid reasons. And like I said above, there are a number of players in the league that I consider better than him that I rarely see any spotlight on. |
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Buddyno2000
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
606 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 10:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
IHC does have some pretty "interesting" posts on here, but I think the over all point is that it appears to some of us that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are. I agree with that.
I personally think that there are a number of players in the league who are better than Crosby. Thorton, Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Hossa, Sakic just to name a few. And that doesn't include defensemen.
I don't like him through association. I am sick of seeing him on TSN every 5 minutes for stupid reasons. And like I said above, there are a number of players in the league that I consider better than him that I rarely see any spotlight on.
Probably one of the best post i've seen in a while . I agree 100% with you Beans
Go leafs Go by the way |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 12:12:11
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Hey IHC, I liked the comedy in the opening post. Nice subject line and interesting topic.
But I will say that going on one knee does allow you to pick up passes that are off target (usually in front of you) and get a better one timer. The reason is that it moves your body forward to line up with the pass. But you probably already knew that considering you say you're a good player.
Something to consider is that players that play on the edge often end up on their knees, butt, backs etc. because they're going to extremes to get their job done and more times than not are smaller. He is a shifty and nimble player who is not that big either so he can get knocked around more. It makes things worse because he is on the edge already.
As for his mouth, I haven't noticed him being much worse than 20% of the rest of the league. Some guys talk and some guys play; he does both. |
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Guest9693
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Posted - 04/02/2007 : 18:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
IHC does have some pretty "interesting" posts on here, but I think the over all point is that it appears to some of us that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are. I agree with that.
I personally think that there are a number of players in the league who are better than Crosby. Thorton, Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Hossa, Sakic just to name a few. And that doesn't include defensemen.
I don't like him through association. I am sick of seeing him on TSN every 5 minutes for stupid reasons. And like I said above, there are a number of players in the league that I consider better than him that I rarely see any spotlight on.
Honestly? You really believe "a number of players" are better than Crosby? Wow, I wish you and I were rival NHL GMs because I'd make a straight up Hossa for Crosby trade in a heartbeat. Heck, I'd even throw in a 3rd rounder to sweeten the pot a little! I don't think there'd be very many reporters writing columns about how I got fleeced by giving up Marion Hossa and a 3rd round pick and only getting a 19 yr old Art Ross winner in return. |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 05:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9693
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
IHC does have some pretty "interesting" posts on here, but I think the over all point is that it appears to some of us that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are. I agree with that.
I personally think that there are a number of players in the league who are better than Crosby. Thorton, Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Hossa, Sakic just to name a few. And that doesn't include defensemen.
I don't like him through association. I am sick of seeing him on TSN every 5 minutes for stupid reasons. And like I said above, there are a number of players in the league that I consider better than him that I rarely see any spotlight on.
Honestly? You really believe "a number of players" are better than Crosby? Wow, I wish you and I were rival NHL GMs because I'd make a straight up Hossa for Crosby trade in a heartbeat. Heck, I'd even throw in a 3rd rounder to sweeten the pot a little! I don't think there'd be very many reporters writing columns about how I got fleeced by giving up Marion Hossa and a 3rd round pick and only getting a 19 yr old Art Ross winner in return.
I dunno, I can see where Beans is coming from. Sid still has a lot of maturing to do, and I think that in time part of that maturation process will include the showboating. I personally believe he's the best player in the league, but you can still make strong arguments for guys like Thornton, Lecavalier, Iginla, guys who do more than just put up points, which, at this point, is all Crosby's doing. |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 06:20:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
IHC does have some pretty "interesting" posts on here, but I think the over all point is that it appears to some of us that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are. I agree with that.
I personally think that there are a number of players in the league who are better than Crosby. Thorton, Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Hossa, Sakic just to name a few. And that doesn't include defensemen.
I don't like him through association. I am sick of seeing him on TSN every 5 minutes for stupid reasons. And like I said above, there are a number of players in the league that I consider better than him that I rarely see any spotlight on.
So you don't like him through association? Then why don't you just say that rather than making up excuses why to actually dislike him? That indicates to me that you're reaching a little bit beans. And why would anyone make a play harder for themselves? That's illogical. Unless he's just that much better and wants to challenge himself . . . |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 12:34:24
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Looks like I struck a nerve with a few people.
Firstly, I do believe that there are better "players" in the league than Crosby. I do think he is one of the top three best "scorers" in the league. There are huge differences between the two. I would easily take all of the other guys I mentioned over Crosby in every category of hockey except scoring. And none of those guys are slouches at scoring either.
And of course the "reporters" would lambaste a guy for trading Crosby. Most of the reporters think Crosby can walk on water and he will die carrying a cross.
Secondly, I don't like him through association. I explained that very clearly. I am not reaching for anything. Talent wise, he is amazing offensively. If he says healthy, he will be one of the most prolific scorers in history. If he matures and learns some defensive play, he will be one of the best players ever. He is not there yet, and that will not make me like him. I give him the respect offensively(not defensively or as a complete player), but I don't have to like him.
A comment was made about a player who plays on the edge being on the ice more than others. I agree, but I don’t think that show that a player is more talented or has to play like that. I don't often see guys like Heatley, Jagr, or Sakic on their butts unless they are hit. And in the past, did you often see Lemieux, Messier, or Gretzky on their respective behinds on the ice or on their knees unless they were knocked down?? I didn't.
And finally, the comment about a player being much better and challenging himself by playing from their knees or whatever. That is ridiculous. And there is no way that Crosby is that good. He's not. Not today anyway. So if he is doing that, it makes him a meatball.
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 13:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
....A comment was made about a player who plays on the edge being on the ice more than others. I agree, but I don’t think that show that a player is more talented or has to play like that. I don't often see guys like Heatley, Jagr, or Sakic on their butts unless they are hit. And in the past, did you often see Lemieux, Messier, or Gretzky on their respective behinds on the ice or on their knees unless they were knocked down?? I didn't.
I made the comment you are refering to above. I didn't however make a comment that all good scrorers were skating on the edge. So you can remove from your list Messier, Lemieux, Jagr, Heatley, Iginla and others. These are bigger guys who play a different game. Messier went through guys or took it wide. Lemieux was by no means burning people with blazing speed or agility, he used his hands and strength and very quickly earned ice space because of that. Jagr was much the same as Lemieux. Heatley is a big guy with a multitude of tools but he is not ducking and weaving at full speed like Crosby. Iginla is a lot like Heatley but a little smaller.
Gretzky you can leave on there. He played half the time on his knees, stomach and butt. He was constantly tripping up and being knocked over because he was small and agile, he played the first 15 years of his career on the edge. He may not have had the top speed of Crosby but everything he did with the puck was done at top speed while in transition. Sakic was similar to Gretzky but to a lesser degree. You can add guys like Briere, St. Louis, Savard, Datsyuk, Cammalleri, MacDonald. Smaller, nimble players who's game it is to skate very fast, cut hard, and be creative. These are the guys I was refering to. Crosby not only fits in that class, but in my opinion, he leads it. |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 13:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And finally, the comment about a player being much better and challenging himself by playing from their knees or whatever. That is ridiculous. And there is no way that Crosby is that good. He's not. Not today anyway. So if he is doing that, it makes him a meatball.
Beans, that was a sarcastic comment I made and I totally agree that it is ridiculous, I thought that was self-evident. However, I don't think it is any more ridiculous than the comment "that Crosby does certain things to intentionally make things look better or harder than they are." In fact they are one and the same as far as I can tell.
leigh raised an excellent point also about going to extremes to get the job done. It reminded me of long hockey camp days with a coach who loved the saying "break your comfort zone". |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 13:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9682
The lengths some people will go to in an attempt to find fault with Crosby's game is either laughable or sad, I'm not sure which. The guy is a dynamic, very talented player, the type who doesn't come along very often. He's going to win the scoring race in only his second year in the league; instead of coming up with increasingly lame reasons to discredit him, why not just enjoy the talents of a guy who's likely to be a very, very good player for a very long time.
Thank you sooooo much guest 9682. What is it with everyone? Is it cause Crosby is THAT good that everyone just has to poke fun of EVERYTHING the guy does? GIVE IT A REST GUYS. HONESTLY. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 21:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Looks like I struck a nerve with a few people.
Firstly, I do believe that there are better "players" in the league than Crosby. I do think he is one of the top three best "scorers" in the league. There are huge differences between the two. I would easily take all of the other guys I mentioned over Crosby in every category of hockey except scoring. And none of those guys are slouches at scoring either.
And of course the "reporters" would lambaste a guy for trading Crosby. Most of the reporters think Crosby can walk on water and he will die carrying a cross.
Secondly, I don't like him through association. I explained that very clearly. I am not reaching for anything. Talent wise, he is amazing offensively. If he says healthy, he will be one of the most prolific scorers in history. If he matures and learns some defensive play, he will be one of the best players ever. He is not there yet, and that will not make me like him. I give him the respect offensively(not defensively or as a complete player), but I don't have to like him.
A comment was made about a player who plays on the edge being on the ice more than others. I agree, but I don’t think that show that a player is more talented or has to play like that. I don't often see guys like Heatley, Jagr, or Sakic on their butts unless they are hit. And in the past, did you often see Lemieux, Messier, or Gretzky on their respective behinds on the ice or on their knees unless they were knocked down?? I didn't.
And finally, the comment about a player being much better and challenging himself by playing from their knees or whatever. That is ridiculous. And there is no way that Crosby is that good. He's not. Not today anyway. So if he is doing that, it makes him a meatball.
I'm sorry Beans but i have to say this as i found it only a little hypocritical on your part. Read your post again and then ponder that you consider Gretzky the greatest player ever.
I think Crosby is anyone's equal right now and he is only 19. Lecavalier, Thornton, Heatley, Iginla etc... were nowhere near the top of the league when they were his age. People may be tired of hearing that he's only 19 but that needs to be recognized because it truly is impressive. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 21:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
People may be tired of hearing that he's only 19 but that needs to be recognized because it truly is impressive.
This is failrly off topic, but with the masters in 2 days, golf is my main (sports) focal point right now.
What do think is more impressive...What sid is doing right now? or what tiger did back in 1997 (winning the masters in record margin AT 21years old (-18) !!!!!!!!!)
(I don't really like tiger that much...that guy really needs to relax out there)
Any how, I am just curious what ppl think..
Personally, Tiger at 21 was way more impressive..That course (augusta) requires so much knowledge, usually the greats don't win there til their mid-thirties......if at all.
I HATE CROSBY |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 21:40:10
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| You're right IHC...that was way off topic, haha. Both Tiger and Crosby are amazing. Lets leave it at that. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 07:59:32
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More nerves struck.
1) I don't care how big a player is. That has no bearing on him playing on the edge or not and how often the play from their knees or butts or whatever. I am basing my opinions on this specific topic on the amount of time I see Crosby not get hit yet be off his skates. It does happen often enough to recognize it. So I will leave those players on the list as they prove my point. My point is that a great player does not have to play like a scalded dog on skates. Those player I mentioned do not.
And Willus, could you please explain how I am being hypocritical ?? I do think that Gretzky was the best ever. What does that have to do with this forum?? I would really like to hear it so I can defend my opinions. And I am a little shocked that you of all the people on here would put him as an equal to guys like Iginla and Lecavalier. Defensively, he is not even close to those guys. Or Sakic or Thorton or Hossa. The sign of this is that he spends no time on the penalty kills. He is not matured enough to be counted on defensively like Lecavalier or St. Louis or Iginla are. And they are also near the top in points. I know Iginla is not, he was hurt. His PPG game is tied for the third highest in the league.
And finally, just to keep people mad at me. The only similar thing between Tiger and Sid is the media attention they get. It makes me sick on both fronts. The difference is that Tiger is actually proving that he is as good as people say he is. Crosby has yet to do that. In his defense. let's see Crosby's resume in 10 years. He could prove me wrong. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 09:13:15
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Beans I was just saying that the reasons you listed for not recognizing Crosby as the best (not great defensively or a complete player) can be applied to Gretzky and yet you hold him as the best ever. I'm not trying to say Crosby is the best ever here by pointing that out either. He hasn't proved it over time yet.
In the games I've watched of him thus far I don't see him being bad defensively at all. When the puck's in his end he's back deep with it not waiting out around the perimeter for a breakout pass. And honestly his game is more well rounded than Gretzky's. He plays physically. Anyway, I'm just saying the points you hold against Crosby doesn't stop you from considering Gretz the best when he has the same "flaws". |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2337 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 11:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
People may be tired of hearing that he's only 19 but that needs to be recognized because it truly is impressive.
This is failrly off topic, but with the masters in 2 days, golf is my main (sports) focal point right now.
What do think is more impressive...What sid is doing right now? or what tiger did back in 1997 (winning the masters in record margin AT 21years old (-18) !!!!!!!!!)
(I don't really like tiger that much...that guy really needs to relax out there)
Any how, I am just curious what ppl think..
Personally, Tiger at 21 was way more impressive..That course (augusta) requires so much knowledge, usually the greats don't win there til their mid-thirties......if at all.
I HATE CROSBY
Good topic IHC, but please start a NEW TOPIC for it. Just copy and paste your post in a new thread. Thanks! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 12:04:17
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Well it looks like we disagree on this one as well. I think it is a misconception that being physical and being good defensively is synonymous. Lidstrom won the Norris last year and he had only 28 hits all year. Brind'Amour won the Selke and had 50 hits. So the two players considered to be the best defensemen and best defensive forward had less than a hit a game. Lidstrom barely had a hit every 4 games. And I know that hits do not equal physical play, but I think you get the idea.
And the thing with Crosby that I find not really weak, but average at best is his defense. He's got twice the turnovers as he has takeaways, he leads his team in turnovers, and he spends zero time on the penalty kill. The one bright spot is that his face off percentage is strong. A player of his caliber should be on the PK as well. Thorton, Lecavalier, St. Louis, and Heatley are the rest of the top 5 scorers in the league. They have the responsibility of penalty killing on their team as well as scoring. Sid doesn’t have that. And it’s not because Pitt is so deep in defensive forwards.
And on comparing him to Gretzky, I strongly disagree that his game is all around as good as Gretzky’s was that the same time in their careers. Gretzky’s offence overshadowed anything he did defensively. And Gretzky’s offensive production through two years in the league is better than Crosby’s is as well. He played in every situation. Crosby does not.
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 12:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
More nerves struck.
1) I don't care how big a player is. That has no bearing on him playing on the edge or not and how often the play from their knees or butts or whatever. I am basing my opinions on this specific topic on the amount of time I see Crosby not get hit yet be off his skates. It does happen often enough to recognize it. So I will leave those players on the list as they prove my point. My point is that a great player does not have to play like a scalded dog on skates. Those player I mentioned do not.
My point is that great players come in all shapes, sizes and STYLES of play. I wasn't trying to imply that ALL great players have to play on the edge, they do not. So your counter that all the players listed don't play like Crosby is true but irrelevant to my point. What I was saying however is that I believe Sidney is a player that is fast, mobile, shifty and very creative and that is my definition of literally playing on the edge. That translates to a player who is "out there" more frequently and putting themselves in high risk body positions. Because of that he can get knocked on his ass more. The players you listed in your previous post, for the most part, do not (except Gretzky and maybe Sakic) And the smaller the player the more amplified that is.
Further, with regards to my mentioning size; size of the player is not the rule but at the current NHL level, these qualities do appear in players under 6 feet more often than players over 6 ft that is why I brought up size. That's all. It's simple physics that at that level, smaller players are going to get bumped around more than bigger players. Bumped around = falling down. Crosby is 5'11"
Also he is only 19 and not as strong as 75% of the league (just a guess)
That makes 3 very good reasons why he spends a LITTLE extra time on the ice but off his skates.
If you don't like him because of the hype then shut your tv/radio/internet off. Its weird though. Gretzky stole the same amount of air time (RELATIVELY SPEAKING) maybe even more than Crosby does, but we both agree that he was the greatest ever and we both put him at the top of our favourite list. You don't hate him? |
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Guest9666
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Posted - 04/04/2007 : 12:27:43
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Crosby is the best and should win MVP
----- Begin Admin Edit ------------
OTHER CONTENT REMOVED
Guest 9666, thank you for joining in the discussion. I have removed some of your post. For future reference, while not required, we appreciate if you please support your posts with some insight. Also please demonstrate respect for others in our forums even if you do not support their opinions.
-------- End Admin Edit ------------
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 12:41:03
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The difference is that when Gretzky was in his prime, I didn't get a bazillion sports channels to see him every two seconds. It seems like you can not put on Sportsnet or TSN without seeing Crosby. Gretzky was getting the hype after he had proven everything there is to prove offensively, not as a 2nd year player. And I also don't think Crosby is worth the hype he is getting. Is he a Great player? Yes. Best in the league? Not in my opinion. Deserving of the attention? Not nearly the amount he is gettings. It's not like he is scoring 200+ points like Gretzky did or is +100ish with 100+ points like Orr was. Did Thorton get this much attention last year getting 125 points?? No, Crosby and Ovechkin got the spotlight most of the time.
And I disagree with your part of your opinion. If a player is speedy and shifty and on the edge, his size is irrelevant to a hit. Anyone putting themselves in a vulnerable position and getting hit will be put on their ass. My point was that the player I listed do not put themselves in those positions as much and do not have to to be effective. Look at Peter Forsberg. He's listed at 6'0" 205 lbs. This is 1" taller and 5 lbs more than Crosby. You don't see Forsberg on his ass often and he plays that fast paced style. Datsyuk is another that comes to mind. He is same size as Crosby. I don't see him on the ice as much either. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 14:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...And I disagree with your part of your opinion. If a player is speedy and shifty and on the edge, his size is irrelevant to a hit.
That is completely untrue Beans. Generally speaking smaller players will get knocked down more easily. Bigger bodies can absorb more energy. But regardless, I understand that even big guys who are off balance will be toppleable (is that a word?) But I'm not talking about just hits; it's about trips, hooks, losing an edge and every other obstacle out there. This style of player is at a higher risk.
quote:
Anyone putting themselves in a vulnerable position and getting hit will be put on their ass....
THAT IS MY POINT BEANS!!! He spends more time on that edge than most most players so he is going to spend more time down. Throw in his smaller stature, juevenille strength and we're there.
quote:
My point was that the player I listed do not put themselves in those positions as much and do not have to to be effective.
Ok if that is your point then fine, but it only supports mine that Crosby plays a different style.
quote:
Look at Peter Forsberg. He's listed at 6'0" 205 lbs. This is 1" taller and 5 lbs more than Crosby. You don't see Forsberg on his ass often and he plays that fast paced style.
Now that is a good point...and there are exceptions to everything. But included in Forsberg's game was his ability to go through guys too. This may speak to the strength portion of my argument.
quote:
Datsyuk is another that comes to mind. He is same size as Crosby. I don't see him on the ice as much either.
Actually I included him in my list (above) of players who I would say spend a lot of time on their asses. But maybe we are seeing different games/highlights.
On a separate note, don't you love how IHC comes in and stirs the pot then leaves? LOL! He's been doing that all year! Nice! |
Edited by - leigh on 04/04/2007 14:04:46 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 14:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The difference is that when Gretzky was in his prime, I didn't get a bazillion sports channels to see him every two seconds. It seems like you can not put on Sportsnet or TSN without seeing Crosby. Gretzky was getting the hype after he had proven everything there is to prove offensively, not as a 2nd year player. And I also don't think Crosby is worth the hype he is getting. Is he a Great player? Yes. Best in the league? Not in my opinion. Deserving of the attention? Not nearly the amount he is gettings. It's not like he is scoring 200+ points like Gretzky did or is +100ish with 100+ points like Orr was. Did Thorton get this much attention last year getting 125 points?? No, Crosby and Ovechkin got the spotlight most of the time.
And I disagree with your part of your opinion. If a player is speedy and shifty
and on the edge, his size is irrelevant to a hit. Anyone putting themselves in a vulnerable position and getting hit will be put on their ass. My point was that the player I listed do not put themselves in those positions as much and do not have to to be effective. Look at Peter Forsberg. He's listed at 6'0" 205 lbs. This is 1" taller and 5 lbs more than Crosby. You don't see Forsberg on his ass often and he plays that fast paced style. Datsyuk is another that comes to mind. He is same size as Crosby. I don't see him on the ice as much either.
Crosby is dominating the league in scoring at 19 years of age while playing a physical style. Can you think of anyone else who has done that?
You talk like you expect him to play like he's in his prime too. That's unfair. Compare him to where the other guys were at 19.
And btw Gretzky received every bit as much attention when he was that age. It was unreal then too. But you can't hold that against the player, it's out of his control. As for Crosby not playing on the PK, well thats up to the coach, not Crosby. I doubt it's because of his inferior defensive play though.
I don't know that he's necessarily on his but more that anyone else really. It's certainly not because he's a bad skater. He's a fantastic skater actually. Just watch how he uses his edges.
It's funny, the more I respond to these posts about Crosby the more I realize just how good he really is.
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/04/2007 14:19:25 |
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Guest9927
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Posted - 04/04/2007 : 14:28:14
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Moderator edit:
Please refrain from making personal attacks when trying to make a point. There is lots of factual evidence to support your claims, so resorting to insults is unnecessary and unacceptable.
Thanks. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/04/2007 14:56:49 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 15:13:13
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Ah, another "guest" bringing insight and knowledge to the forum. Thanks for your appreciation of my hockey knowledge being 13 and all.
Willus, I don't expect him to play like he is in his prime. However, what I get frustrated on is that the media is touting him as if he is the end all be all. I disagree. He's got a ways to go. And I think Gretzky beating the next closest player by 29 points in the scoring race in his 2nd season is worth of more attention than Crosby's 8 point lead with 2 games to go in his 2nd season. In Gretzky's third year, he beat the next guy by more than 50 points. If Crosby can even come close to that next year, I will give him a lot more credit. Jeez, half of that and I will be impressed.
I will also not argue that he is a very strong skater. That is one of the things that makes him so dangerous is that he can handle the puck as good as anyone in the league. Only he does it at top speed all the time. It is amazing to watch. I give Crosby the respect I think he deserves. He is one of the top 5 talents in the league offensively and a top 10 player in the league overall. He has loads of physical gifts and talent that you can not teach. He still needs to mature and refine his defensive game to the NHL. He has done that fine offensively, and he will even be better once he can harness some of that "youthful energy." Crosby will be one of the best ever if he stays health. HE IS NOT THERE YET. That is my whole point. Willus, do you disagree???
And if he was strong defensively he would be on the penalty kill. With a guy like Jordan Staal with him, it would be a threat on the PK like Tampa has with Lecavalier and St. Louis. Any coach would be stupid to not have him on the PK if he could. The coach doesn't have him on the PK for a reason. Again, with time he should mature into that role as well. My point was that Gretzky was doing that as a rookie. Sid is not as good a player today as Gretzky was in his second year. More physically gifted for sure, but not a better player at this point.
And Leigh, we may be molding into arguing the same point. I am saying that I feel Crosby would and could be a better player if he used that speed in a more controlled manor like a Forsberg does and did in his prime. Looking at guys like Sakic and Forsberg, they know when to go all out and when to pull it in a bit. If Crosby can learn that, he will be absolutely unstoppable.
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Get off your knees Sid, you're blowing the game!!! 
