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Guest9606
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Posted - 12/15/2013 :  19:59:59  Reply with Quote
Who do you guys think is the most over-rated. NHL player

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2013 :  20:44:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very subjective question, but I know who it isn't. It's def not Shane O'Brien! In fact, he's prob the most under rated!
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
575 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2013 :  22:20:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lucic,Toews,Datsyuk and everyone on Toronto
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  05:46:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Most overrated . . . my pick is Patty Kane.

There, I said it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest2387
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Posted - 12/16/2013 :  06:05:54  Reply with Quote
Gots to be David Clarkson.
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  09:28:17  Reply with Quote
Two years ago, I would have said Dany Heatley, but this year, he's hardly even rated! For many years, Heatley was a point a game (plus) player, and one of the NHL's top power forwards. At 32 years of age, his career should not be over, but he's no where near the same player he was years ago.

The "blockbuster" trade between San Jose and Minnesota two years ago (exchanging Heatley for Havlat) turned out to be much less than a blockbuster deal for both teams!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  10:10:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yakopov. From my perspective, he is suppose to be so good offensively that he is good enough to hide his defensive shortcomings. Well he isn't as strong offensively, although he is talented, and is defensively worse than he was billed.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  11:34:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Toews? Datsyuk? Patrick Kane?

Perhaps we're not all working from the same definition of "over rated"... To me it means people that don't live up to the hype they get. These guys are rated high, but they all manage to deliver as well.

Lucic is not a bad suggestion. Clarkson is an easy choice at this point in the year, but may change by the end of the year. One that sticks out for me is Chris Stewart - what has happened to this once promising power forward? After a super promising rookie year with COL, he's been hit and miss with STL. Similar to Lucic, there is an expectation that they will produce more points than they do, but never seem to achieve.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  12:15:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

Toews? Datsyuk? Patrick Kane?




My immediate reaction was that anyone picking any of these 3 is insane! However, it's only fair to hear an explanation, so Sahis and Slozo, feel free to fill us in on "why"?

The only thing i can come up with to defend them in the slightest way as picks is simply "hype". Toews' leadership is thrown about (as is his competetiveness) SO MUCH that he's often thrown into the debate about "best player in the game". What he lacks in offense (good offensive production, but not great) is often overlooked thanks to his 2 way game and said leadership qualities. This is all from a guy who's career high is just 76pts and who's never been a PPG player over a full season, save for last year's shortened sched where he had 48pts in 47games. Again, this is the only kind of thing i can think of that makes anyone consider him over rated. Not necessarily my opinion!
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Guest9874
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  16:39:58  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Yakopov. From my perspective, he is suppose to be so good offensively that he is good enough to hide his defensive shortcomings. Well he isn't as strong offensively, although he is talented, and is defensively worse than he was billed.



He hasn't even played 100 games, don't be to quick to judge bro
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
575 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  16:43:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They're too high on the ratings list, some people think that datsyuk or toews are the best players in the league, which they're not IMO.
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Guest0661
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Posted - 12/16/2013 :  16:50:53  Reply with Quote
The Sedin twins ,not only do they make 7 m a year ,they are only effective on the power play and are scared of brad Marchand , enuff said .
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Guest0661
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  17:02:55  Reply with Quote
The Sedin twins ,not only do they make 7 m a year ,they are only effective on the power play and are scared of brad Marchand , enuff said .
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  17:09:13  Reply with Quote
How about Jordan Staal? I know it's almost sacreligious (in Canada at least) to criticize a member of the Staal family, especially a power forward.

But 14 points in 34 games so far this season is not great! Yes, I know he brings other things to the game, but I bet there are at least a couple of dozen power forwards with more points than Jordan Staal this season. (Who also bring other things, besides points, to their game.) At 25 years of age his production is dipping, especially since he joined his older brother Eric in Carolina.

Jordan has gone from .81 points per game (2011-2012) to .65 PPG (2012-2013) to .41 PPG this season.

He's not even doing that well in the faceoff circle - okay at best with 51% winning percentage.

When considering overrated players, I think you have to look at hype or hope, where they were drafted for example. Jordan was drafted second overall, so more should be expected of him. Your draft position is a ranking after all - what most hockey people think of your future potential.

He lived up to some of that potential his first few seasons, but he appears to be dropping off.

And most recently, he signed a 10-year $60 million deal. Right now, he's not living up to this deal. Even if you don't think Jordan Staal is overrated, you would have to say he's underperforming.
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Guest9606
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Posted - 12/16/2013 :  18:55:30  Reply with Quote
I'd have to say Paul Statsny Avalanche he gets paid too much for how he plays
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  23:56:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4377.....nice to see you here posting again. NOT NICE to see you continue to refuse to sign up and get an actual "username"!!!

J. Staal, is, imo, the best name brought up yet. Well done, I hadn't even thought of him he's been so quiet out there in Carolina! You are so correct! A ton of hype, and little production! The 'Canes have been known to be a second half team so that may change, but he really has been fairly invisible on the scoresheet thus far. Keep in mind, this is a guy the Pens were very reluctant to move!!!

9606...Stastny is an interesting one. Aside from the 4pt night he put up tonight as you were typing your insulting post, he's not been worth the 6.5M (think it's around that?) he's getting. One prob, he's got Duchene and now Mackinnon to deal with for the C spot on the team. You have to think that eventually he'll be moved, but until then, he's gonna have a tough time getting the ice time he needs to put up the numbers he needs to quiet critics like you and I.

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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  06:51:59  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sahis34

They're too high on the ratings list, some people think that datsyuk or toews are the best players in the league, which they're not IMO.

Sorry but they are consistently on the top 10 (if not the top) players in the league (by pretty much all hockey analysts) especially when you account for their all around game. If you measure best as in just points put up, you may have a better case, but the game isn't only about putting up points.

These two guys are locks to make their respective countries Olympic team and we are talking about Russian and Canadian talents here. Have you been checked in the neck area lately?
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Guest2325
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Posted - 12/17/2013 :  06:54:52  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

4377.....nice to see you here posting again. NOT NICE to see you continue to refuse to sign up and get an actual "username"!!!

J. Staal, is, imo, the best name brought up yet. Well done, I hadn't even thought of him he's been so quiet out there in Carolina! You are so correct! A ton of hype, and little production! The 'Canes have been known to be a second half team so that may change, but he really has been fairly invisible on the scoresheet thus far. Keep in mind, this is a guy the Pens were very reluctant to move!!!

9606...Stastny is an interesting one. Aside from the 4pt night he put up tonight as you were typing your insulting post, he's not been worth the 6.5M (think it's around that?) he's getting. One prob, he's got Duchene and now Mackinnon to deal with for the C spot on the team. You have to think that eventually he'll be moved, but until then, he's gonna have a tough time getting the ice time he needs to put up the numbers he needs to quiet critics like you and I.





I totally agree. I had also forgotten about J. Staal. I even thought he was overrated when he was in PIT. He just happened to be playing on a team full of stars. Plus his name was Staal so of course he HAS to be highly touted! I find Marc Staal a tad overrated as well. Eric is the best Staal and the only one deserving of any praise.
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Guest6378
( )

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  08:36:29  Reply with Quote
I would have to say David Desharnais, i know he wont even be rated for most of the league but the in montreal, he is a god and all this by one, at best, average season. he rode on the back of Patch and Cole for that season.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  08:58:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6751

These two guys are locks to make their respective countries Olympic team and we are talking about Russian and Canadian talents here. Have you been checked in the neck area lately?


Bahahahaha! This just never gets old!
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  12:35:24  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9606

Who do you guys think is the most over-rated. NHL player


David Booth
Stephen Weiss and David Clarkson (big time UFA this year wow what a weak 2013 UFA group).

I have yet to see these guys do very much these days considering the pay they are getting.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



716 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  12:50:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I always thought that Marian Gaborik was over rated. Even in his prime. He did had some good seasons, he did had some games where he was dominant, but unconsistency (maybe due to an injury plague career) always took him away from the top of the league. He was often seen as top 5 to 10 in the league, where I never rated him this high, making him overrated. But he did seem to have fallen out of the radar. So this is probably something of the past.

As for today, I will go and say Jonathan Quick. Yiaks!!!! Just look at what Scrivens and Jones are doing with the Kings while he is injured.

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  13:15:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Quick! Very interesting theory re the Kings defense and their system in front of their goalies! I've often said something similar about Mike Smith in Phoenix after how good Bryzgalov was there only to become so pedestrian everywhere else he went! You could be on to something there, and considering Quick may be the US starter in Sochi, i hope you're right! Lol.

Over rated is such a tough thing to judge. I don't even bother thinking of guys like Booth as i don't see him really all that hyped to begin with. Overpaid, sure, but over rated? Not so much.

Gaborik is a good one though as mentioned, the injuries had a huge play on his success or lack there of! Shame this kid couldn't stay healthy.

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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  13:30:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evander Kane
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Guest6377
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  10:57:19  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Quick! Very interesting theory re the Kings defense and their system in front of their goalies! I've often said something similar about Mike Smith in Phoenix after how good Bryzgalov was there only to become so pedestrian everywhere else he went! You could be on to something there, and considering Quick may be the US starter in Sochi, i hope you're right! Lol.

Over rated is such a tough thing to judge. I don't even bother thinking of guys like Booth as i don't see him really all that hyped to begin with. Overpaid, sure, but over rated? Not so much.

Gaborik is a good one though as mentioned, the injuries had a huge play on his success or lack there of! Shame this kid couldn't stay healthy.





i would agree with Smith he was terrible when he played with Tampa, a team that didnt play shut down hockey
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  15:51:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6377

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Quick! Very interesting theory re the Kings defense and their system in front of their goalies! I've often said something similar about Mike Smith in Phoenix after how good Bryzgalov was there only to become so pedestrian everywhere else he went! You could be on to something there, and considering Quick may be the US starter in Sochi, i hope you're right! Lol.

Over rated is such a tough thing to judge. I don't even bother thinking of guys like Booth as i don't see him really all that hyped to begin with. Overpaid, sure, but over rated? Not so much.

Gaborik is a good one though as mentioned, the injuries had a huge play on his success or lack there of! Shame this kid couldn't stay healthy.





i would agree with Smith he was terrible when he played with Tampa, a team that didnt play shut down hockey

I have to say that like Edmonton and Philly, a goalie playing in Tampa would normally not receive league wide praise, hence Smith poor performance in Tampa. The fact Tampa looks to finally be getting some defensive system in place, Bishop now in net and the recipient of Tampa's improved defensive play, is likely why his name is in the top for goalies. If this was Tampa of 2011, Bishop wouldn't be found near the top 30 regardless of his talent. And this is from a Bishop fan.

To say Smith isn't a good goalie because his stats are elevated while he plays in Phoenix, is a bit of a stretch and further back in Dallas he played his way into a trade as a starter in Tampa. A few years ago when Phoenix made the playoff, 90% on the back of Smith, he was top tier. I don't see him playing in a lessor capacity now, but the team in front of him is more free wheeling.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  15:52:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Most overrated . . . my pick is Patty Kane.

There, I said it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Like him or hate him, if Patty Kane was on Toronto he would be the best offensive talent Toronto has, even with Kessel, Kadri and Lupul. Don't really agree with this one.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  15:57:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Quick! Very interesting theory re the Kings defense and their system in front of their goalies! I've often said something similar about Mike Smith in Phoenix after how good Bryzgalov was there only to become so pedestrian everywhere else he went! You could be on to something there, and considering Quick may be the US starter in Sochi, i hope you're right! Lol.

Over rated is such a tough thing to judge. I don't even bother thinking of guys like Booth as i don't see him really all that hyped to begin with. Overpaid, sure, but over rated? Not so much.

Gaborik is a good one though as mentioned, the injuries had a huge play on his success or lack there of! Shame this kid couldn't stay healthy.



I also disagree with Bryzgalov being pedestrian every else he has been. Bryzgalov was great enough to warrant a trade (sorry waiver drop, knowing Phoenix was at the top of the waiver pickup pool, a favor to Gretzky) to become a starter in Phoenix and was the best goalie prior to this season, Philly has had. He might have stole headlines for crazy talk, but Philly is that bad defensively no goalie is good there and Edmonton might not be an improvement. Bryzgalov on most teams with some defensive structure, IMO, would be a game changer.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  15:58:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, just wanted to clarify something. I wasn't saying Smith isn't or wasn't a good goalie. I just don't know if he'd find the same success in a less defensive oriented team. I agree, even Bishop would have worse numbers in TBay back in 2011, no doubt.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that i think that if Smith played elsewhere, his numbers would not be as good as they are in Phoenix, nor would he continue to be mentioned in the Olympic talk. Again, this is just me. He could go on to win Gold for Canada and stand on his head and win a cup for Phoenix and prove me wrong, but until then......
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  16:23:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, just saw your post on Bryzgalov. By "pedestrian", i simply meant that, like Smith, his numbers were better in Phoenix than elsewhere. IMO, this is the result of playing in Phoenix.

I don't think either guy is a "bad" goalie, and i guess saying their stats are better while playing in a more defensive system is sorta obvious, but i'm trying to make the point that neither of these guys is likely as good as their numbers in Phoenix show.

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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  20:49:00  Reply with Quote
how about rick nash? only one season in his career over 70pts yet considered an elite player.
second choice would be anyone the flyers sign as free agents and overpay (ie lecavalier, briere, bryzgalov, hartnell, streit, etc). You can argue they are overpaid not overrated, but clearly someone rated then high enough to fork out big contracts.
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Maverick9
Top Prospect



Canada
18 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  21:26:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd have to say Andrew Ference.

Edmonton was hyping him as a top pairing defenceman and the leader they needed to become a respectable franchise again. Needless to say, he hasn't lived up to the hype.

Edmonton went from allowing 2.79 goals per game in the lockout shortened season to allowing 3.43 goals per game this season!

Obviously some of the blame falls to Dubnyk but this Oilers team was supposed to contend for the playoffs this year and Ference was their biggest accquisition.

I think the Oil were better off with Horcoff as their captain, he wouldn't stand for some of the terrible habits the team has fallen into. Cheating defensively (Hall, Yakupov), complaining about ice time (Yakupov).

In my opinion, Ference benefited from playing in Boston. They played the perfect system for a guy with few offensive abilities to thrive in. Ference is exposed in Edmonton where they try to play a more skilled game and he simply isn't skilled enough to do thrive playing this way.
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Guest0232
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Posted - 12/20/2013 :  21:51:40  Reply with Quote
ovechkin why? sure he can score alot of goals but he cant help a team win way too selfish.
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:13:31  Reply with Quote
maverick 9...how do you figure the oilers would be better off with horcoff as captain....he led the team to multiyear basement finishes as captain...hence why they have such high draft picks in yakupov hall and RNH. To me they couldn't get worse so they sent him packing.
Can we throw oilers management (ie lowe, mactavish, tambellini) as overrated? they don't seem to have a clue how to put a caliber team together.
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:20:15  Reply with Quote
I like the ovechkin suggestion. Good comparison for those that mentioned datsyuk and toews. They may not get 50 goal or 100 pt seasons like ovechkin may, but at least they carry their teams deep in the playoffs. Ovechkin disappears in the playoffs when refs aren't giving 6-7 power plays per game. for a guy often mentioned as one of the best in the league, he has never even carried his team to the finals, let alone winning. Sounds overrated to me.
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Maverick9
Top Prospect



Canada
18 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  00:24:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088

maverick 9...how do you figure the oilers would be better off with horcoff as captain....he led the team to multiyear basement finishes as captain...hence why they have such high draft picks in yakupov hall and RNH. To me they couldn't get worse so they sent him packing.
Can we throw oilers management (ie lowe, mactavish, tambellini) as overrated? they don't seem to have a clue how to put a caliber team together.



Just from a quick look at the standings, last year Horcoff's oilers were 12th in the west with a -9 goal differential through 48 games. This year, ference's oilers, with largely the same core group sit last in the west with a -32 (!) goal differential. And thats only through 37 games!

Obviously ference isn't completely to blame for this stat but wasn't he supposed to be part of the solution? Right now he is certainly not helping

If we go by cap hit, there are 3-5 players that I would consider preferable to ference in the same price range.

Ference's cap hit: $3.25 mil
Comparables: Dennis Seidenberg: $3.25
Trevor Daley $3.3
Dan Girardi $3.25 (this is an incredible bargain btw)
Jonny Boychuk $3.366
Marc Methot $3
Jared Cowen $3.1
Jon Ericsson $3.25

Personally, I don't see Ference being as valuable as these guys on the list. I see an older player who has a skill set that traditionally ages poorly. He is by no means a top pair defenceman and would only be top 4 dman on a poor team such as edmonton.

I do agree Oilers management is overrated. Tambellini especially. How do you have so many high draft picks and miss not address your biggest organizational need in a defenceman?

Think of what ryan murray could have done in edmonton? He looks miles ahead of yakupov right now.

Edited by - Maverick9 on 12/21/2013 00:31:46
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  12:03:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I totally agree with this. Might not be all Ferences fault, but he was hyped as the fix to Edmontons defensive faults, by showing the young guys how to do it. Horcoff being missed I also agree with. Team captain and guy the media threw the most shots at, but with him the Oilers record was much better than when he was out of the lineup or since his trade. It wasn't right that his contract became so bad that he had to go, because he was very important for the Oilers. How do you pay a player for things that don't show on the stats sheets and justify it to the media and casual fan.

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick9

I'd have to say Andrew Ference.

Edmonton was hyping him as a top pairing defenceman and the leader they needed to become a respectable franchise again. Needless to say, he hasn't lived up to the hype.

Edmonton went from allowing 2.79 goals per game in the lockout shortened season to allowing 3.43 goals per game this season!

Obviously some of the blame falls to Dubnyk but this Oilers team was supposed to contend for the playoffs this year and Ference was their biggest accquisition.

I think the Oil were better off with Horcoff as their captain, he wouldn't stand for some of the terrible habits the team has fallen into. Cheating defensively (Hall, Yakupov), complaining about ice time (Yakupov).

In my opinion, Ference benefited from playing in Boston. They played the perfect system for a guy with few offensive abilities to thrive in. Ference is exposed in Edmonton where they try to play a more skilled game and he simply isn't skilled enough to do thrive playing this way.

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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  13:43:16  Reply with Quote
teams like Edmonton always learn the hardway when they pay a second pair dman to be a top pair guy. in boston ferrence hid behind chara, never played those tough minutes against the top offensive guys. if Edmonton thought he would miraculously be as good as chara well then once again a bonehead move by edmontons management
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Guest6018
( )

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  14:08:06  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I totally agree with this. Might not be all Ferences fault, but he was hyped as the fix to Edmontons defensive faults, by showing the young guys how to do it. Horcoff being missed I also agree with. Team captain and guy the media threw the most shots at, but with him the Oilers record was much better than when he was out of the lineup or since his trade. It wasn't right that his contract became so bad that he had to go, because he was very important for the Oilers. How do you pay a player for things that don't show on the stats sheets and justify it to the media and casual fan.

quote:
Originally posted by Maverick9

I'd have to say Andrew Ference.

Edmonton was hyping him as a top pairing defenceman and the leader they needed to become a respectable franchise again. Needless to say, he hasn't lived up to the hype.

Edmonton went from allowing 2.79 goals per game in the lockout shortened season to allowing 3.43 goals per game this season!

Obviously some of the blame falls to Dubnyk but this Oilers team was supposed to contend for the playoffs this year and Ference was their biggest accquisition.

I think the Oil were better off with Horcoff as their captain, he wouldn't stand for some of the terrible habits the team has fallen into. Cheating defensively (Hall, Yakupov), complaining about ice time (Yakupov).

In my opinion, Ference benefited from playing in Boston. They played the perfect system for a guy with few offensive abilities to thrive in. Ference is exposed in Edmonton where they try to play a more skilled game and he simply isn't skilled enough to do thrive playing this way.





Leadership has little to do with point whoring, and more to do about attitude, unifying qualities, and doing the little things right every time. For those reasons Andrew Ference is the captain.

GAA is not only a deceiving stat, but also a dangerous metric to use to describe a one defensemen's contribution to the backend. The Oil were in a terrible slump during the start of the season. Arguably, the only reason they started winning is do to the compete level and insistence of doing the little things right demonstrated by Ference; furthermore, his grit and toughness started fuelling his team's confidence and drive to start winning as they can. This became no more apparent than when he stuck up for himself after a cheap pre-puck hit by Stempniak against Calgary. Ference responded in a way that not only asserted justice to the cheap hit thrown by Stempniak, but also fired up his team for a great comeback, which set the stage for further wins down that stretch of games.

He's overpaid, but they all are. In a sense though, his experience and consistency is well worth it, especially compared to Horcoff. Good riddance to Horcoff and his terribly overpriced salary. Ference earns that C every night...find someone else to pick on for this thread.

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  17:23:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My only issue with Ference being suggested us I don't recall anyone making these claims that are being suggested? Who claimed him as a defensive "savior"? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall that? I do remember some saying he's a good start to improvements on the back end and will help some of the youngsters but a savior?
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Guest4995
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Posted - 12/21/2013 :  19:59:28  Reply with Quote
Anyone consider Brad Marchand or P.K Subban?
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