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Guest9606
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  14:43:28  Reply with Quote
Who do you guys think is so far the biggest bust. By bust I mean not as good as they expected pretty much.

Guest0960
( )

Posted - 12/16/2013 :  15:45:24  Reply with Quote
Claude Giroux has to be up there...
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Guest0661
( )

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  07:22:51  Reply with Quote
ALEX BURROWS. At least with TORTS as the coach,when he is diving,and,embellishing on the ice he can block the odd shot as well as flop all over the ice,so some what of a silver lining .
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Guest0661
( )

Posted - 12/17/2013 :  07:23:57  Reply with Quote
ALEX BURROWS. At least with TORTS as the coach,when he is diving,and,embellishing on the ice he can block the odd shot as well as flop all over the ice,so some what of a silver lining .
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
373 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  13:43:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alexander Daigle comes to mind.
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Guest9624
( )

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  20:48:41  Reply with Quote
pat fallon
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2013 :  22:54:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9624

pat fallon



Is that Jimmy's brother? Lol. All kidding aside, I recall Falloon, but I don't remember how much hype was behind him?

Looking back, he was 2nd overall to Eric Lindros in the 1991 entry draft. That alone had to have hyped him somewhat? The fact that a guy named Scott Niedermayer was taken 3rd overall prob didn't help expectations on Falloon!!!

Always interesting and sometimes painful looking back at past drafts at guys who panned out and those who didn't. Following those 3 picks, picks 4 through 7 were Scott Lachance (NYI), Aaron Ward (Jets), Peter Forsberg (Phi) and then the Canucks with the steal of the draft in Alex Stojanov. Uh, yeah......
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2013 :  12:21:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
and then the Canucks with the steal of the draft in Alex Stojanov. Uh, yeah......



Stojanov was later traded to PIT for Markus Naslund. So it all worked out.
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Shepsky
Rookie



Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  06:30:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought the question was about who was the biggest bust this year... In which case I would have to say David Clarkson is up there. I know the Leafs brass has said that Clarkson's role is more defensive here in Toronto, but come one, for the money he's getting, and he has how many points, and has now been suspended twice in one year....

Every day is a great day for hockey
-Mario Lemieux
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4573 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  06:30:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From the Leafs this year?
David Clarkson rockets to the top of that list . . . in fact, he's pretty much all alone up there in the stratosphere. Been brutal so far, on top of the fact that we already knew he was getting overpaid.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  16:08:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alexander Semin has yet to be mentioned and he's gotta be at or very close to the top of the list for this season. After scoring 44 points in 44 games in the lockout shortened season, he inked a 5 year / 35M contract worth 7M per year! Yes, he's had an injury prob, but so what? As a "bust", i'm assuming we're talking about what player is not rewarding their team for what they're paid! With just 3 goals this season and 9 pts in 22 games, the Canes were surely hoping for MUCH more!!!!
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:23:02  Reply with Quote
how about Jordan staal. when you consider toews was picked behind him. Imagine Pittsburgh with Crosby malkin and toews. SICK.
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:27:32  Reply with Quote
rick dipietro and his lifelong contract comes to mind.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4573 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2013 :  06:39:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the entire league . . .yes, my vote is for Semin as well, Alex.

This is the biggest bust in terms of expectations for sure - being paid as a point a game player, 30 goal guy . . . and not only has he severely underperformed . . . he's been literally non-existent as a threat. And he's been the usual defensive liability.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1036 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2013 :  14:38:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo...I know that Clarkson hasn`t been lighting the lamp, to say the least ...that's for sure.....but did you know that Clarkson has the highest ( relative corsi number on the leafs ) ?...yep he does @ 12.3

When Clarkson is on the ice the leafs.....
1. ) Outshoot the opposition....
2. ) Creates more scoring chances
3. ) The puck is not in the leafs end as much during a game

LOL....I`m not making this up, these are statistical FACTS.....

Look it all up and you will find out that this is all true.

The simple fact of the matter is that the leafs are a much better team , stats wise....when Clarkson is on the ice.....whether people agree with this or not....the stats do support these facts.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2013 :  20:21:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Slozo...I know that Clarkson hasn`t been lighting the lamp, to say the least ...that's for sure.....but did you know that Clarkson has the highest ( relative corsi number on the leafs ) ?...yep he does @ 12.3

When Clarkson is on the ice the leafs.....
1. ) Outshoot the opposition....
2. ) Creates more scoring chances
3. ) The puck is not in the leafs end as much during a game

LOL....I`m not making this up, these are statistical FACTS.....

Look it all up and you will find out that this is all true.

The simple fact of the matter is that the leafs are a much better team , stats wise....when Clarkson is on the ice.....whether people agree with this or not....the stats do support these facts.



I love all the interesting ways that Leafs fans like to use to justify the Clarkson contract. Relative corsi numbers, why not... 5.25M a year, sure he's not scoring much, and he's more of a pest than an offensive threat, and he's missed 12 games due to suspension... but look at his Corsi score!

Duke, instead of looking for obscure measurements to judge a player, why not look at the obvious. Here are some other statistical facts:

GP: 26
Goals: 3
Assists: 4
Shots per game: 2.19
TOR record when he is in the lineup: 10-16 (what good is a solid corsi score when your team has a losing record while you're in the lineup?).

At this point in time, there is no way anyone can honestly say that Clarkson is living up to the contract he signed.

Besides that - according to behindthenet.ca, Clarkson has the 4th highest corsi for TOR, behind Gardiner, Bolland, and Kadri.
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 12/23/2013 :  07:29:52  Reply with Quote
Besides leafs jersey sales go up by 15% when Clarkson is on the ice. Look it up.

I actually like Corsi but only when comparing main stats first. It will allow you to see trends of between players with comparitively similar main stats. But to use Corsi as your main stats comparison, that is a reach.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2013 :  15:32:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just accidentally spread my Fenwick, and sat on my Corsi.

Is that the same Jim Corsi that played a handful of ganes for the Oil in '79? Love that guy!

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/23/2013 :  19:49:05  Reply with Quote
re:oil WILL make playoffs in 2014....

only if they are demoted to AHL maybe. otherwise fat chance.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2013 :  21:44:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088

re:oil WILL make playoffs in 2014....

only if they are demoted to AHL maybe. otherwise fat chance.



C'mon, leave him alone! He hasn't done his yearly "date edit" just yet! Lol...
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1036 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2013 :  19:39:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
nuxfan, you know that every other player on the leafs also had a record of 10 Wins and 16 losses too in that stretch

Before the Detroit game, previous 7 games.....kadri - JVR and kessel combined for a total of 6 points !!!!!....they were - 7...- 8 ...and - 8 in those previous 7 games....that's their 1st line.....this might have more to do with the leafs woes than Clarkson

Toronto record over the past several weeks has to do more with their loss of their 1st and 2nd line centers more-so than anything else, I think........

How many NHL teams can support a winning record with their 2 top centers out of the line-up ??......not many I would say
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2013 :  07:09:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stephen Weiss and David Clarkson immediately come to mind. Clarkson has already been discussed here. Weiss has 2 goals and 2 assists in 26 games after signing a 5 year deal worth just shy of $5 million per to be Detroit's 3rd highest paid forward behind Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 12/26/2013 :  10:20:33  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

nuxfan, you know that every other player on the leafs also had a record of 10 Wins and 16 losses too in that stretch

Before the Detroit game, previous 7 games.....kadri - JVR and kessel combined for a total of 6 points !!!!!....they were - 7...- 8 ...and - 8 in those previous 7 games....that's their 1st line.....this might have more to do with the leafs woes than Clarkson

OK how would you measure a bust and who would you consider a bust?
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/26/2013 :  15:25:19  Reply with Quote
who cares about corsi and fenwick??? Hocley isn't baseball....no need to overanalyse every little stat.
guaranteed the leafs didn't sign him for a high corsi or fenwick, they expected points which would translate into wins, not losses. Granted his career best is 46 pts in 80 games so really is he that much of a bust?
as a leafs fan, its disappointing they signed him to such a big long contract as really what is his ceiling? At best he is a .5ppg player. mind you he is averaging roughly .3 so it isn't that far off considering it will take him time to gel with new system, linemates, etc. Luckily he will have 7 years to do so as his contract will make him untradeable.
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Guest2523
( )

Posted - 12/27/2013 :  03:33:54  Reply with Quote
King Henrick Lundvqist has been an absolute nightmare this year...and I drafted him in the second round of my fantasy pool!
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Guest5470
( )

Posted - 12/27/2013 :  07:08:16  Reply with Quote
Rick Nash
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1036 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2013 :  15:41:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 9825....to answer your question as to who I would consider a bust and how do you determine a bust ?

In my opinion, a bust player is one who a team brings in to do a certain job for a team and he doesn`t deliver in that role.

In clarksons case, what did the leafs have in mind when they brought in Clarkson ??....of course they would like for him to be scoring more goals....that's pretty obvious....his numbers are lower than what they expected, for sure this is true. Now its only early in his leaf career.

To me Clarkson is playing with tenacity each and every shift. He is hitting and playing huge in the corners and he is going to the net hard...seems like he has developed some great chemistry with Kulemin the past several games.......kulemins best hockey in the last 2 years has been in the past couple games playing alongside Clarkson.

So really when you look at what Clarkson is doing for the leafs......he is doing everything they wanted...EXCEPT scoring more goals. ......I wont even mention play-making, he wasn`t brought in for that and I don't think this was expected to excel in this area.

Clarkson was brought in to go to the net with vigor and tap in garbage goals....maybe in time when he gets regular line mates this will happen more often on a regular basis....its early folks, don't judge a player so early with a new team.....if he has a few 2 goal games, all this bust talk will disappear.

A REAL bust guest would have been Scott Gomez`s tenure with Montreal....now that's a bust.

Wade Redden........comes to mind.
Alex Daige.....
I. Bryz in Philly
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/27/2013 :  17:46:10  Reply with Quote
the sens franchise went sour when they chosed to keep redden over chara. call it the tsn turning point. bust for sure.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2013 :  19:24:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

To me Clarkson is playing with tenacity each and every shift. He is hitting and playing huge in the corners and he is going to the net hard...seems like he has developed some great chemistry with Kulemin the past several games.......kulemins best hockey in the last 2 years has been in the past couple games playing alongside Clarkson.

So really when you look at what Clarkson is doing for the leafs......he is doing everything they wanted...EXCEPT scoring more goals. ......I wont even mention play-making, he wasn`t brought in for that and I don't think this was expected to excel in this area.

Clarkson was brought in to go to the net with vigor and tap in garbage goals....maybe in time when he gets regular line mates this will happen more often on a regular basis....its early folks, don't judge a player so early with a new team.....if he has a few 2 goal games, all this bust talk will disappear.




Clarkson is being paid 5.25M to "go to the net with vigor", and "play with tenacity", and "hit in the corners"??? REALLY? Sorry Duke - those are qualities expected of any NHL player, from minimum wage up. Clarkson is being paid 10x the minimum wage to put the puck in the net, and match or exceed his production in NJ, period. If you want tenacious checkers that create havoc in front of the net, you get checking pluggers for 1/3 the cost and 1/2 the term.

If Clarkson starts putting the puck in the net, I agree - the bust talk will likely go away. He's not going to match last year's numbers, Leaf fans and management are probably already chalking this year up as a "settling in" year, and no doubt more will be expected next season. But at this point in the season, to call this contract anything but a bust, is simply ignoring the facts in front of you.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1036 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  11:54:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuxfan, I will agree with you that if Clarkson doesn`t score between 25 - 30 goals next season ( playing a full season of course ) ...he will be a major disappointment for the leafs.

Personally, as a leafs fan, I haven`t given up on Clarkson. I like the way he plays and I think his fortunes will turn around.

Theres one thing no - one speaks of when looking at Clarkson's lack of scoring......he has to get 1st line power play to score 30 goals !!!!

Not sure of the NHL stats but .....how many NHL players score 30 goals a season I wonder ....WITHOUT always being on the 1st power play unit ???......any1 know ??
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Guest3792
( )

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  14:57:05  Reply with Quote
I have to say the whole second line of Boston. 'Marchand-Bergeron-Erikkson', It's really not working out points wise. Erikkson gets an excuse because of multiple injuries. Marchand going from leading scorer to being on pace for about 40points and Bergeron on pace for about 45points. I don't think anyone expected this line to faulter... at least points wise.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4573 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  08:38:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Upon reconsideration, I'd say Lundqvist . . . in terms of worth to the team, contract . . . he's tops, and he's been quite bad.

And I did for get about Weiss . . . who I knew wouldn't have the same kind of stats line in Detroit as in Florida, but . . . he's taken it to a ridiculous level.

Worst Busts so far:

1) Lundqvist (NYR)
2) Semin (CAR)
3) Weiss (DET)
4) Clarkson (TOR)

And yes, that IS an east coast bias you are seeing there . . .it's not just the positive I see more of, but the negative as well!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  09:04:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Theres one thing no - one speaks of when looking at Clarkson's lack of scoring......he has to get 1st line power play to score 30 goals !!!!

Not sure of the NHL stats but .....how many NHL players score 30 goals a season I wonder ....WITHOUT always being on the 1st power play unit ???......any1 know ??



I don't know much about the particular PP units for each team, but I do know Alex Burrows had 4 seasons of ~30 goals without any time on the PP at all, first or second unit. Ironically, now that he's getting PP time this year, he hasn't scored a goal yet.

Regardless, you have to earn your PP time, and Clarkson aint earning.

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Upon reconsideration, I'd say Lundqvist



Good one - I'd have to agree its been a dismal year for him this year.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  17:28:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Weiss is a great one! Hadn't even thought of him! What's with guys who leave Florida having trouble living up to expectations? Booth here in Van has done that and Jokinen when he left was never the same!!! Luongo's one who's bucked that trend but others have struggled mightily!
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  22:46:12  Reply with Quote
Anybody say Ryan close in New Jersey, 4.85 mil and 1 point this season.
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  08:00:04  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088

Anybody say Ryan close in New Jersey, 4.85 mil and 1 point this season.

Ryan Clowe has a history of concussions and has been out for all but 8 games with a concussion. There isn't enough of a sample size yet but he was on my radar of potential UFA busts.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  09:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088

Anybody say Ryan close in New Jersey, 4.85 mil and 1 point this season.



I too had forgotten about Clowe due to the games missed from injury. This is a guy who in SJ was always a PIA for the Canucks and after his move to NJ, I kinda forgot about him! It's going to be interesting to see what he can provide the Devils once healthy as he's kind of a replacement for Clarkson I guess? He's a little cheaper, a little bigger, on a shorter term and has arguably better numbers career-wise than Clarkson. He is however, 2 years older. Either way, I think his sub 5M per year deal over just 5 years (compared to 7yrs for Clarkson) is something the Leafs would love to have been able to lock Clarkson up on.
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just1n
Rookie



244 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  10:07:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex116 - don't forget who we got for Stojanov! Worked out pretty well in the end ;)
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5784 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  10:56:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by just1n

Alex116 - don't forget who we got for Stojanov! Worked out pretty well in the end ;)



Either I'm lost, or you're posting in the wrong thread? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything?
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