Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Search
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
 All Forums
 Hockey Forums
Allow Anonymous Posting forum... General Hockey Chat
 phaneuf contract Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Guest3188
( )

Posted - 01/24/2014 :  12:00:48  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

guest 6604, i wonder what Montreal s cup equity was in 1986 ??....or the Hurricanes in 2006 ??....u have the numbers.

Playoff hockey is a diffrent beast my friend. The leafs were supposedly a crap team last season but took Boston to 7 games and had them down 4-1 in their own building. ( of course the rest is history ).....but remember, it was game 7.

This years leafs are a much better team with several key additions. Never mind what points ( stats ) show, when the playoffs start, throw all that crap out the window........the leafs have tons of offensive and excellent goal-tending, along with plenty of grit.....their overall defensive core is their weakness, but is still a work in progress.

So far this season, the leafs HAVE NOT had a complete roster on the ice in 1 single game....haven`t happened...but they are doing ok...

I have no idea what you mean by cup equity, but the Leaf were not suppose to be a bad team last year. It was talked in length how the teams goaltending and forwards were much improved. The Leafs defense was considered disappointing the year before, but was considered a very good calibre defense on paper. Phaneuf at that time was a big factor in why the defense was highly rated, but disappointed 2 seasons ago. Yet last year the team performed to there potential. 7 games of the 1st round wasn't mind blowing by any stretch of the imagination. This year with there ups and downs they are again playing to there potential. A lot of talk has been about there goaltending, shooting % and possession numbers, but nobody is saying the Leafs are better or worse than there record. Same as last year.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2014 :  12:03:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry last was me
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  12:05:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did any1 catch Phaneufs ( the speedster ) game againist Dallas thursday night ??

omg...talk about brutal......opposition blows around him like a pylon ......this contract makes me sick as a leaf fan when i watch him play.
Go to Top of Page

Guest9832
( )

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  18:36:02  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did any1 catch Phaneufs ( the speedster ) game againist Dallas thursday night ??

omg...talk about brutal......opposition blows around him like a pylon ......this contract makes me sick as a leaf fan when i watch him play.

yeah looked like he was the ONLY one who was beaten last night. No one else made any mistakes that game.
Go to Top of Page

Guest9832
( )

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  18:41:27  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did any1 catch Phaneufs ( the speedster ) game againist Dallas thursday night ??

omg...talk about brutal......opposition blows around him like a pylon ......this contract makes me sick as a leaf fan when i watch him play.

hey Franson made a nice D but why was there a 2 on 1? Also who kept the puck in to cause that tying goal against the jets?
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  21:32:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9832

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did any1 catch Phaneufs ( the speedster ) game againist Dallas thursday night ??

omg...talk about brutal......opposition blows around him like a pylon ......this contract makes me sick as a leaf fan when i watch him play.

hey Franson made a nice D but why was there a 2 on 1? Also who kept the puck in to cause that tying goal against the jets?



NO NO NO! You can only mention the bad plays that Dion makes! I mean, he's the only one making them and he does no good, so I'm not sure why you bother.
Go to Top of Page

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2014 :  06:06:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Guest9832

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did any1 catch Phaneufs ( the speedster ) game againist Dallas thursday night ??

omg...talk about brutal......opposition blows around him like a pylon ......this contract makes me sick as a leaf fan when i watch him play.

hey Franson made a nice D but why was there a 2 on 1? Also who kept the puck in to cause that tying goal against the jets?



NO NO NO! You can only mention the bad plays that Dion makes! I mean, he's the only one making them and he does no good, so I'm not sure why you bother.



And then on the other end, never make any mention of the standard solid to very good plays he makes . . . blocks, defensive saves, goals and assists, etc.

I don't care if it's Chara or Shea Weber, every great defenceman makes mistakes. Every one. I can cherry pick Chara, for instance, and he's known as a defensive beast . . . and it's the same for any other elite defenceman.

But only one of those top-tier d-men play for the Leafs, so, it's a silence for anything good or savvy, and a firing squad for every gaffe.

pfffffft.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2014 :  07:02:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If Dion Phaneuf were half as bad as Duke claims him to be, he wouldn't have gotten a deal anywhere near to what he did. You can't just claim the Leafs are idiotic for this deal when it's been discussed by the so called "experts" that he'd have rec'd a similar or maybe even better offer from multiple teams had he gone to free agency!
Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  06:59:59  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

If Dion Phaneuf were half as bad as Duke claims him to be, he wouldn't have gotten a deal anywhere near to what he did. You can't just claim the Leafs are idiotic for this deal when it's been discussed by the so called "experts" that he'd have rec'd a similar or maybe even better offer from multiple teams had he gone to free agency!

I love the silence and absolutely no retort. Well until Dion does one thing wrong, then watch out.
Go to Top of Page

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  08:36:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Sorry last was me




Leafs were not supposed to be a bad team last year?!? Are you insane?!?

Look back again my friend . . . almost everyone had them missing the playoffs again before the season finally began and we played the 40 odd games.

Man you people have short memories!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  20:24:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you guys see Dion Phaneuf ALL GAME LONG constantly getting beat to the puck....poking at the puck because he cant skate to it....hooking every1 because he cant catch up to them.....CONSTANTLY holding on to and grabbing opposing players....., pulling on their jerseys because he cant catch them......falling on his ass several times every game while losing his footing because of lack of foot speed......getting caught EVERY single game......giving up 2 on 1`s EVERY single game.........

If you guys don`t see this you must be blind.

I`m a leaf fan who picks up for leaf players who outside leaf fans pick on for no reason. ( eg...Phil kessel ) because of the Boston trade...remember ???

Slozo, you put Phaneuf into the NHL`s ...Elite defenseman group.....really ??...if he is so elite then why didn`t Steve Yzerman give him a call ???...answer that 1 for me Slozo .

You say that even Chara makes mistakes and miscues...of course he does, every top player does....BUT true elite players don`t have a high-light reel of them every game as does Phaneuf.......

Did you notice that during the TB game, the ONLY pp TB didn`t have several scoring chances on was Phaneufs penalty ???....thats because he wasn`t on the ice killing it !!!!!

Guest 6751...you say everything is silent until Dion does ...one thig wrong ??.....ONE THING WRONG ???...lol....guess you don`t watch hockey.

Dion was good almost ten years ago in Calgary when clutching anf grabbing WAS STILL prevalent in hockey....with the new rules in place and a defense-man actually has to skate, bye - bye players who can`t skate....eg...Phaneuf......this is why Calgary dumped him, because they were sick of looking at the same crap he was doing every game and weren`t willing to pay 7 million per season any more for a D-man doing a job which can be performed easily by a 3-4 million guy....and even better in my opinion..........any leaf fan who sees Phaneuf as a 7 million ---7 year player is delusional.
Go to Top of Page

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  21:35:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Do you guys see Dion Phaneuf ALL GAME LONG constantly getting beat to the puck....poking at the puck because he cant skate to it....hooking every1 because he cant catch up to them.....CONSTANTLY holding on to and grabbing opposing players....., pulling on their jerseys because he cant catch them......falling on his ass several times every game while losing his footing because of lack of foot speed......getting caught EVERY single game......giving up 2 on 1`s EVERY single game.........

If you guys don`t see this you must be blind.



Contracts like Phaneuf's don't get presented unless the entire braintrust within the organization thinks that its a good move. I have no doubt that everyone in a management position within MLSE was onboard with this contract, and that they all look at Phaneuf a lot more than I (or you) do. Are you saying that the entire Leaf management group has overlooked these flaws, and signed him nonetheless?

If so, you have bigger problems in Leaf-land than this contract.

quote:

Slozo, you put Phaneuf into the NHL`s ...Elite defenseman group.....really ??...if he is so elite then why didn`t Steve Yzerman give him a call ???...answer that 1 for me Slozo .



Not being one of the best 7 Canadian born defensemen in the NHL does not mean you're not elite. A lot of very good and elite defensemen were left off of team Canada.
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  21:41:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Um....Dion did get an invite to the Team Canada orientation camp in the summer. That means he was considered. I'm not saying he's worth 7M per year, in fact I think I said earlier in this thread that he's slightly overpaid, but he's not that far off. 7M today isn't what it was a few years ago, plus, the cap is rising. Don't compare him to guys earning 7 today who signed 3 years ago, because while it's still technically the same amount, in a way it's not equivalent in respect to the cap.

Duke, how much do you think Dion is worth and before you say 1M or something silly, keep in mind that it's pretty clear that he was going to get this same deal, or something close, on the FA market. Surely not multiple GM's can be as stupid as you seem to claim.
Go to Top of Page

ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2014 :  03:31:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just as a comparison. Dan Girardi from the NYR is a UFA this summer. Rumour has it he is looking for a 7 year deal worth between $5 and $6 million per season! Not that far off from the numbers Phaneuf got.

And further to what Alex just said about not comparing him to people who signed long term deals 3 or 4 years ago. Sticking with the Rangers, according to TSN pending UFA Ryan Callahan is seeking a 7 year deal worth $6+ million annually. I know Callahan brings a lot more tangibles to the table than just offence. He's a heart and soul type guy, but he's only cracked the 50 point mark once and has only scored more than 23 goals once.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2014 :  05:10:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Sorry last was me




Leafs were not supposed to be a bad team last year?!? Are you insane?!?

Look back again my friend . . . almost everyone had them missing the playoffs again before the season finally began and we played the 40 odd games.

Man you people have short memories!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

You might have a short memory too my friend. There are always Leafs haters out there but the only knock on them was unproven goaltending. Most had them fighting for between 6-9. I will agree there are a lot of people who rag on Leafs players, but last year they weren't considered for the bottom of the East.
Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/29/2014 :  07:08:00  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
any leaf fan who sees Phaneuf as a 7 million ---7 year player is delusional.

and any leaf fan that can defend the Clarkson contract but rail against the Phaneuf contract is what then?

The organization is handing out stupid cash, but somehow Phaneuf shouldn't take any of it. It is an organizational issue of giving out ridiculous contracts to non-performing players. So you want someone who is actually performing (you know outscoring said forward, one of the few + defensemen on your team, a guy who plays against top competition and eats up ~25min a game) to take less? You shouldn't rail against Dion but Nonis instead.

Duke I love how your posts fail to answer any of my questions.

Here was one posted earlier:
You are willing to compare Dion's contract to those outside the organization but refuse to compare Dion's contract to those in the organization. You have the team's top forward due to make $8M per and then you have a chump forward making $5,25M as next in line as highest paid player on the team. Considering everything shows that Phaneuf is your de facto #1 defencemen you want him to take less than the chump forward and for a shorter term?

The leafs salary structure shows that the #1 guy makes ~1.6 times as much as the #2 guy. Who's the next highest paid defencemen, Tim Gleason at $4M. So the ratio of $8M to 5.25M (1.6) is similar to $7M to $4M (1.75). If you use the 1.6 ratio, Dion's salary would have been $6.4M.

So if they don't have Dion, who would be the shut down D-man eating up his hard 25 minutes against top opposition? All I ever heard from those against this contract is the highly touted youngster are ready. Well those youngster aren't ready for it as the stats clearly show. So what now?


or this one from another guest:

hey Franson made a nice D but why was there a 2 on 1? Also who kept the puck in to cause that tying goal against the jets?

Slozo and Alex already dealt with your question regarding the olympic picks.

Speaking of penalty kill, didn't the leafs last year have one of the best units, at least in the top 5. Same personnel this year but they are in the bottom 10 this year. So who's to blame? Oh right Dion and only Dion.

I'll enjoy the silence now.
Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/31/2014 :  06:48:54  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Slozo, you put Phaneuf into the NHL`s ...Elite defenseman group.....really ??...if he is so elite then why didn`t Steve Yzerman give him a call ???...answer that 1 for me Slozo .

Oh hey, if you trust Yzerman's judgement so much, why wasn't Franson on the orientation if you think he can take over from Dion? Oh right.

How about the other defensemen? They didn't even get to whiff at their respective country's orientation or team. Wow they must be really good young defencemen to not even get an invite.

So why did a guy like Phaneuf get an invite? Either the hockey minds that picked the team know nothing about hockey by leaving off the great leaf young defensemen but picking Phaneuf or Phaneuf is a better defensemen that you think.

Oh the silence is deafening.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2014 :  11:17:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry guest...i am working a lot lately, couldn`t get back to ya

Guess what ...you just made all my points valid in ur last post...thanks guest...

Olympics.....
No Phaneuf...no Franson....no Gleason...no Gardiner....No reilly......no etc - etc - etc -

YET YOU DEFEND THEIR SALARIES...!!!!!

Think about THAT guest.....lol
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2014 :  12:47:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Sorry guest...i am working a lot lately, couldn`t get back to ya

Guess what ...you just made all my points valid in ur last post...thanks guest...

Olympics.....
No Phaneuf...no Franson....no Gleason...no Gardiner....No reilly......no etc - etc - etc -

YET YOU DEFEND THEIR SALARIES...!!!!!

Think about THAT guest.....lol



Duke, how do you figure he validated your point??? That makes absolutely no sense? Are you trying to bring Franson, Gleason, Gardiner and Rielly's salaries into this now? Do you have a problem with Gardiner and Rielly making 900k? Is that too much? I'm not sure I understand your point if you think the guest just validated it???

Why is it that you choose to ignore the point that was brought up about Phaneuf being invited to the orientation camp??? If he was anywhere near the dman you make him out to be, surely Team Canada wouldn't have sent him an invite???

I think what you're missing is that no one here is claiming him to be a top 10 NHL dman by any means. And please, for the sake of everyone here, don't come back with "why is his salary top 10 then?" as the "when was the contract signed" topic has been discussed already. Problem is, you make him out to be ABSOLUTELY DREADFUL. I have a funny feeling he's a lot closer to the dman the majority here is calling him than he is to the road cone your describe.
Go to Top of Page

Guest9832
( )

Posted - 02/01/2014 :  15:47:08  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Sorry guest...i am working a lot lately, couldn`t get back to ya

Guess what ...you just made all my points valid in ur last post...thanks guest...

Olympics.....
No Phaneuf...no Franson....no Gleason...no Gardiner....No reilly......no etc - etc - etc -

YET YOU DEFEND THEIR SALARIES...!!!!!

Think about THAT guest.....lol

Answer 6751's questions or even mine. You can't so you deflect and ignore. You should work more so you won't have to show off your intelligence by writing non sense.
Go to Top of Page

Guest4205
( )

Posted - 02/01/2014 :  23:20:27  Reply with Quote
I believe 7M is a bit overpaid. But, it seems good players are always overpaid in TO or MTL. Pretty sure Subban will be overpaid, but MTL cant afford to let him go.
I remembered watching Leafs' GM commenting Dion's contract. I thought it was weird hearing a GM being negative by saying "we had to offer Dion that contract because another would have done it". Usually, it sounds more like "we're happy and proud to have PLAYER X associated with our hockey club for a long time".
Go to Top of Page

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  08:20:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Sorry last was me




Leafs were not supposed to be a bad team last year?!? Are you insane?!?

Look back again my friend . . . almost everyone had them missing the playoffs again before the season finally began and we played the 40 odd games.

Man you people have short memories!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

You might have a short memory too my friend. There are always Leafs haters out there but the only knock on them was unproven goaltending. Most had them fighting for between 6-9. I will agree there are a lot of people who rag on Leafs players, but last year they weren't considered for the bottom of the East.



Nope. My memory is excellent, in this regard.

See this post:
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19128&SearchTerms=predictions,2012,13,season

Please note that . . .
- it was noted that the TSN panel predicted a 10th place finish for Toronto
- I correctly predicted Toronto making the playoffs , totally underestimated Montreal and Ottawa
- you did not chime in at all, but not one poster said that Toronto had anything resembling a good chance to make the playoffs. Hilarious to look back now, and see how many including myself predicted Ottawa with no chance to make the playoffs (which they ultimately did)

Now, let's look at the great memory of JOSHUACANADA . . . after the lockout ended, we made a thread on predictions, and on Jan 17, 2013, you made a post in this topic:

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27543&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=predictions

You predicted Toronto to finish 13th last season.

Great memory indeed.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Edited by - slozo on 02/02/2014 08:21:33
Go to Top of Page

Guest2080
( )

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  09:47:19  Reply with Quote
'Cup Equity' = chance to win the Stanley Cup (that trophy they give out at the end of the playoffs).

No one doubts the fact that Toronto greatly increased their chances at playoffs by signing this guy, but I would argue it didn't move the needle whatsoever on their overall cup equity. Bleacher Report is a terrible site run by idiots, but they did have an article last year which goes into this. If you believe it, the Leafs had a 3% chance to win the cup once they made the playoffs:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1623439-2013-nhl-stanley-cup-playoff-chances/page/5

Anytime you can lock up that three percent shot, I guess you have to take it? Good luck.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  20:51:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know this might sound like a cop out, but preseason predictions aside, last year there was less Leafs hate and more bandwagon jumping on to your teams success story. I for one remember the firing of Burke and how many predicted at that point the Leafs would turn a corner and that Burke might have been the one holding the team back. I was one of them. Hell I even cheered for them verses the Bruins.
Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  06:56:58  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Sorry guest...i am working a lot lately, couldn`t get back to ya

Guess what ...you just made all my points valid in ur last post...thanks guest...

Olympics.....
No Phaneuf...no Franson....no Gleason...no Gardiner....No reilly......no etc - etc - etc -

YET YOU DEFEND THEIR SALARIES...!!!!!

Think about THAT guest.....lol

Not sure what I'm supposed to think about since your post makes no sense.

Let's see who didn't make Team Canada as defencemen but was invited to the orientation camp.
Kris Letang - due to make $7.2M
Mike Green - $6.1M (not even sure if he was invited)
Dan Boyle - maknng $6.7M from a Sharks team that has a very controlled team salary structure. He is looking at a similar or higher value contract.
Brian Campbell - $7.1M (not even sure if he was invited)

So top salary doesn't necessarily correlate with being top 8 player in the position (even in your own country). There goes your team Canada and high salary argument.

BTW, I'm not defending or thinking that Phaneuf deserves $7M. But in comparison to the salaries of others on the team and the team's overall salary structure, $7M is well in line when you compare the ridiculous Clarkson contract, a contract that you think is very good value.

Like Alex and other guest said, why you avoiding answering my questions and points?
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  19:42:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, the only reason i commented on the leafs d-core ( other than Phaneuf ) was because 6751 was making some kind of point about them not being invited to the Olympics...just silly dribble.

OK. lets start over with the Phaneuf contract. From what i`ve read, every1 pretty much agrees he is over-paid.....BUT THE LEAFS HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO GIVE HIM THE CONTRACT because they desperately needed him.......

This is where i disagree. I`m a firm believer that if a player IS NOT worth X number of dollars ( plus cap hit ) over a TOO LONG term....DONT GIVE IT TO HIM. !!!!!!

Some people here keep asking me, why do i denounce the Phaneuf contract but not complain about the Clarkson contract ?

OK...the leafs signed Clarkson has a UFA this summer. He was ( confirmed by ALL hockey analyst ) the most sought after UFA this summer. A player who last season ( in a shortened season ) was on pace for 30 goals........a player in the previous season scored 30 goals........Can anyone here honestly say that a 30 goal per season forward ( power forward ) doesn`t deserve 5 million per season ??? ....come on, give me a break....theres not one person on this site who wouldn`t sign Clarkson to your team if you were an NHL gm.......tell the truth....a free power forward and u don`t have to give up anything !!!........OK Clarkson isn`t scoring right now, the season isn`t over yet. If the leafs make the post season i bet he will be a KEY component to their success during the playoffs... ....lets discuss Clarkson some more this summer....

On the other hand, the leafs organization and leaf fans have been watching Phaneuf now for several years. Originally when the leafs got Phaneuf, was i ever excited, i jumped for joy thinking ...we`ve got the next Chris Pronger....several season later i know...boy was i wrong. I debated vigorously with Beans ( who said we didn`t ) boy was he right.

Phaneufs foot speed make him a liability defensively. Barry Trots recently stated....a D-man in todays NHL who is slow of foot has no future in this league...( not his exact statement but same point )......

Phaneuf got away with his grabbing jerseys, clutching and hooking during his early days in Calgary because the league wasn`t cracking down so much on this type of behaviour....his foot speed wasn`t such an impairment as it is now. Some still see him as one of the leagues elite, i think their mostly caught up with the name on the back of his jersey....

Personally, i see a very slow hockey player who cant keep up with the play at all, one who depends on his on ice peers to do the leg work for him. A player who spends too much time watching the opposing forwards cycle the puck instead of defending with foot speed because he can`t keep up with them and the on-going play.

The leafs have given up the most 40 plus shot games this season in the entire league....thats dead last....worst than Buffalo, Calgary, Florida and Edmonton !!!!!........right now the leafs are in a 3 way tie for 10 th overall in the NHL......yet the defence holds this distinctive record......a defence led by Phaneuf. Some speak of Phaneufs 25 - 30 mins of ice time per game.....doesn`t this coincide with ALL OF THESE SHOTS AGAINST ????

I know defence is a team concept but sure looks fishy to me that i`m saying Phaneuf is not the player some think he is and Phaneuf leads the NHL in shots against has a D-man while on the ice.....some may argue that he plays against all opposing top forwards.....guess what, so does all the other top NHL defensemen

Just want to say in conclusion that considering the fact that the leafs had plenty of time to ponder their future with Phaneuf.......they made a huge blunder in my opinion.

Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  07:38:02  Reply with Quote
However, it was you who wanted to mention the Olympics and how Dion didn't deserve his salary becasuse he didn't make Team Canada. You started the silly Olympics dribble and now you try to pin it on me? WTF?

Look at the Clarkson contract thread. There were many, many people who thought the term of that contract was ridiculous. I am one of them. I think it stinks then and it stinks now and it'll stink in the future since it sets the salary structure for the entire team to be overpaid. Remember $5.25M/year for 7 years for a player who has never registered more than 50 points a season ever and only cracked 30 goals once.

At the signing of the renewal Dion and his agent had only to show Nonis the Clarkson contract to justify term and value. How can you ask a defencemen who is outscoring your new $5.25M forward to take less?

How is it still possible that this terrible d-man playing against top players still manage a + rating while pretty much everyone else on D is deep in the negatives? If he is giving up so many shots why is he still in the positives?

So you have a defensemen with the BEST +/- on your ENTIRE TEAM and outscoring your expensive new forward by a pretty wide margin on your roster that needs to be resigned. How can you ask a defencemen who is statistically a bazillion times more productive than your $5.25M/year for 7 years forward, to take less?

It seems to me you have the shiny new object syndrome. Phaneuf new and shiny good. Phaneuf already in pocket bad. Clarkson new and shiny good. We'll see in a few years when Clarkson in pocket and no longer shiny how much you come to his defence.
Go to Top of Page

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  09:18:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Can anyone here honestly say that a 30 goal per season forward ( power forward ) doesn`t deserve 5 million per season ???



Yes, I can - I only have to look at David Booth to see the fallacy of your argument. To me, Clarkson looks exactly like Booth from a couple of years ago - power forward, has a single 30 goal season under his belt, and another couple of 20 goal seasons. 26 years old, all kinds of potential.

VAN acquires him for a reasonable trade, and the production starts going down. 25 points in his first "adjustment" year, then 4 points in 12 games in an injury riddled follow-up season. This year, mostly in the press box or on the 3rd/4th line. Flashes of what made him such a good player earlier, but mostly a whole pile of nothing.

Clarkson is probably TOR's version of Booth. Thankfully VAN will likely escape the Booth deal this coming summer, but you have Clarkson the next 6 years at an even higher pay.

quote:
Originally posted by Guest6751
How is it still possible that this terrible d-man playing against top players still manage a + rating while pretty much everyone else on D is deep in the negatives? If he is giving up so many shots why is he still in the positives?



I'd be interested to know how many shots per game TOR gives up while Phaneuf is on the ice. I doubt that is tracked, but I bet its less shots/min played than other dmen.

Duke - I think what Guest is pointing out is, your team defensive woes are probably not the result of Phaneuf's play.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  19:45:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuxfan i agree that Tor`s shots against is a team effort and not just the play of 1 player......, thats pretty obvious. Phaneuf is just a part of the whole leafs D who give up a truck load of shots.

I dont agree with posts like guests 6751 saying that Phaneuf is worth 7 mill for 7 years if Clarkson is worth 5.25 mill for 7 years. Phaneuf is one player and Clarkson is another.

Using this logic, Phaneuf gets 7 mill...kessel gets 8 mill...basically the same pay, whats the difference?.......can anyone honestly say that Phaneuf brings to the leafs what kessel does ??

So if points were the only thing to come into play while comparing Phaneufs points to Clarksons.......then is it also fair to compare kessels points to Phaneuf ??......i guess then if we do that Phaneuf is only worth about 2.75 million per season......what then is Tim Gleason worth ? Gunnarson ? J. Mclement ??,,,,,the list goes on and on.....you cant use this ( points only ) to compare players salaries.

In Clarkson i see a hard nose player who can skate...in Phaneuf i see a hard nose player who can`t skate....its getting tougher and tougher for slow footed players ( especially D-men ) to keep with the pace in todays NHL and not take penalties

Even If you look at points closely regarding Phaneufs salary, he has 22 points in 56 games, hardly 7 million material. What will he have in 3-4 years down the road ?...he will get even slower while the game keeps getting faster.

I don`t think he is worth 7 million...especially for 7 year.

Regarding Phaneufs good plus / minus....its hard to say, maybe he spends a lot of time on the ice with the first line, they do score a lot...boosting his plus minus
Go to Top of Page

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  20:36:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
In Clarkson i see a hard nose player who can skate...in Phaneuf i see a hard nose player who can`t skate....its getting tougher and tougher for slow footed players ( especially D-men ) to keep with the pace in todays NHL and not take penalties

Even If you look at points closely regarding Phaneufs salary, he has 22 points in 56 games, hardly 7 million material. What will he have in 3-4 years down the road ?...he will get even slower while the game keeps getting faster.

I don`t think he is worth 7 million...especially for 7 year.

Regarding Phaneufs good plus / minus....its hard to say, maybe he spends a lot of time on the ice with the first line, they do score a lot...boosting his plus minus



In Phaneuf I see a top-2 dman that is playing 25+ minutes against the opposition's best players every night, while scoring 35-40 points per season. Whether you like it or not, that skillset is currently worth around 7M per season in the NHL.

In Clarkson, I see exactly the same as you - a hard nosed player that can skate. Which you seem to think is worth 5.25M per season for 7 years. Eeks.
Go to Top of Page

Guest8870
( )

Posted - 02/07/2014 :  08:12:39  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Nuxfan i agree that Tor`s shots against is a team effort and not just the play of 1 player......, thats pretty obvious. Phaneuf is just a part of the whole leafs D who give up a truck load of shots.

I dont agree with posts like guests 6751 saying that Phaneuf is worth 7 mill for 7 years if Clarkson is worth 5.25 mill for 7 years. Phaneuf is one player and Clarkson is another.

Using this logic, Phaneuf gets 7 mill...kessel gets 8 mill...basically the same pay, whats the difference?.......can anyone honestly say that Phaneuf brings to the leafs what kessel does ??

So if points were the only thing to come into play while comparing Phaneufs points to Clarksons.......then is it also fair to compare kessels points to Phaneuf ??......i guess then if we do that Phaneuf is only worth about 2.75 million per season......what then is Tim Gleason worth ? Gunnarson ? J. Mclement ??,,,,,the list goes on and on.....you cant use this ( points only ) to compare players salaries.

In Clarkson i see a hard nose player who can skate...in Phaneuf i see a hard nose player who can`t skate....its getting tougher and tougher for slow footed players ( especially D-men ) to keep with the pace in todays NHL and not take penalties

Even If you look at points closely regarding Phaneufs salary, he has 22 points in 56 games, hardly 7 million material. What will he have in 3-4 years down the road ?...he will get even slower while the game keeps getting faster.

I don`t think he is worth 7 million...especially for 7 year.

Regarding Phaneufs good plus / minus....its hard to say, maybe he spends a lot of time on the ice with the first line, they do score a lot...boosting his plus minus

Since when was 6751 only talking about points? I just read the thread and can easily understand their points.

Phaneuf as a defencemen is outscoring a forward (feel free to compare productivity of a forward to a forward and a defencemen to a defencemen). Productivity is not only measured by points. Gosh you are dense!

Not only is he putting up better points than your newly minted 5.25M forward, he has the best +/- on the team and plays huge minutes against top opponents. So why should he take less than a chump like Clarkson?

Clarkson and Phaneuf are a different players, I thought they were the same dudes (sarcasm). Thanks captain obvious. Blue is different from white. There just made as much sense as Duke.
Go to Top of Page

Guest8870
( )

Posted - 02/07/2014 :  08:28:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
# 1. ) Clarkson`s cap hit is...5.25 million per season NOT...6 million...BIG difference.


From page 1.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Using this logic, Phaneuf gets 7 mill...kessel gets 8 mill...basically the same pay, whats the difference?.......can anyone honestly say that Phaneuf brings to the leafs what kessel does ??


So 5.25 is a big difference from 6 but 7 is basically the same as 8. There goes your argument. BOOOOOOMMMM!

I thank you for your comedic efforts.
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2014 :  10:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8870

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
# 1. ) Clarkson`s cap hit is...5.25 million per season NOT...6 million...BIG difference.


From page 1.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Using this logic, Phaneuf gets 7 mill...kessel gets 8 mill...basically the same pay, whats the difference?.......can anyone honestly say that Phaneuf brings to the leafs what kessel does ??


So 5.25 is a big difference from 6 but 7 is basically the same as 8. There goes your argument. BOOOOOOMMMM!

I thank you for your comedic efforts.



Well played! A great example of using a scenario to one's advantage in a comparison only to dismiss it in another which inconveniences a different one.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2014 :  11:54:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK guest , im going to give u an A on picking out segments of my posts and picking apart every little detail possible.

Its funny how some here can make so much fun of another's post BUT not give any real factual data on Phaneuf making 7 million.

Can you please make some factual comments on these statements ??

1 ) I said Phaneuf is the slowest skater of all TOP paid NHL D-men.....Whats your assessment of Phaneufs skating ability ??

2 ) I said 22 points in 56 games does not warrent 7 million per season.....do you think these point totals warrent a 7 million dollar contract ??

3 ) Do you think 5 goals in 56 games warrents a 7 million dollar contract ??

4 ) I think Phaneuf gives up MORE 2 on 1`s than other TOP paid NHL D-men......what do you think ??

5 ) Opposing forwards ( i think ) get in behind Phaneuf more-so than any other TOP PAID NHL d-man ...whats ur opinion ??

6 ) I see Phaneuf pinching and getting caught several times every game.....whats ur opinion on this ??

Its so easy to pick holes and make fun......lets see if you can give some honest answers about Phaneufs play and justify them....FFS please don`t talk about Clarkson in your answers, thats getting so boring.......i`d just like some honest opinions on Phaneuf....in your opinion.....back them up
Go to Top of Page

Guest9832
( )

Posted - 02/09/2014 :  08:02:24  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Its funny how some here can make so much fun of another's post BUT not give any real factual data on Phaneuf making 7 million.

Can you please make some factual comments on these statements ??

1 ) I said Phaneuf is the slowest skater of all TOP paid NHL D-men.....Whats your assessment of Phaneufs skating ability ??

2 ) I said 22 points in 56 games does not warrent 7 million per season.....do you think these point totals warrent a 7 million dollar contract ??

3 ) Do you think 5 goals in 56 games

5 ) Opposing forwards ( i think ) get in behind Phaneuf more-so than any other TOP PAID NHL d-man ...whats ur opinion ??

6 ) I see Phaneuf pinching and getting caught several times every game.....whats ur opinion on this ??

opinions aren't facts. 6751 did provide facts. Points, +/-, salary structure of the team. Salary structure of other teams. Points as compared to others. Team penalty kill. All you provide are opinions no factual data. And when there was mention of something good Dion does you ignore it. Anyways I'll let 6751 defend themselves to this post.

Funny how you want to remove Clarkson out of this discussion. Their salaries are inter-related.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2014 :  19:08:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyway, that's enough harping on Phaneuf. The leafs are doing ok. It is what it is.....good luck to them
Go to Top of Page

Guest6751
( )

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  11:47:37  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Its funny how some here can make so much fun of another's post BUT not give any real factual data on Phaneuf making 7 million.

Was this to me or another guest? BTW, 8870 nice catch. This is typical Duke, he contradicts himself often. Like the question below.

Also, I stated that $7M/year is an over payment as is all NHL salaries. But comparing his salary with others on the team, $7M is about right.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Can you please make some factual comments on these statements ??

I'd love to but then you are asking for an opinion? What do you want, facts or opinions?

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
1 ) I said Phaneuf is the slowest skater of all TOP paid NHL D-men.....Whats your assessment of Phaneufs skating ability ??

Facts. I don't know. I don't have a radar gun to measure speed. Opinion, I think he has better foot speed than Chara. IMHO, about the same as Orpik, but not as good as say a Erik Karlsson or Duncan Keith. Though willing to concede this foot speed thing because I have no factual data to back up my opinion to see if he truly is in the top or lower half of the defencemen speed thing. Likely neither do you, but you won't admit that.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
2 ) I said 22 points in 56 games does not warrent 7 million per season.....do you think these point totals warrent a 7 million dollar contract ??
22 points in 56 games doesn't warrant $5.25M for a scoring forward. But this scoring pace is for a defencemen who shutdown others team's top forward, plays huge minutes and has the highest +/- on the team full of negatives.

The leafs are paying an unproductive forward $5.25M/year to put up 4 goals and 6 assists in 39 games with one of the lowest +/- forwards on the team (-5). For a defencemen putting up 22 points in 56 games with the highest +/- on the same team as the unproductive forward, plays huge minutes and shuts down top competition, $7M seems like a steal.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
3 ) Do you think 5 goals in 56 games warrents a 7 million dollar contract ??
See above.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
4 ) I think Phaneuf gives up MORE 2 on 1`s than other TOP paid NHL D-men......what do you think ??
That is your opinion. I don't watch enough of the other top paid defencemen to properly give factual info or an opinion. I'm guessing neither do you. But somehow you can come up with this opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
5 ) Opposing forwards ( i think ) get in behind Phaneuf more-so than any other TOP PAID NHL d-man ...whats ur opinion ??
See 4 above.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
6 ) I see Phaneuf pinching and getting caught several times every game.....whats ur opinion on this ??

Yup, Dion pinches in. But there are more occasions that the pinch generates scoring chances than you are willing to admit. You seem to ignore this or not notice it. An example that was already given was the Jets game tying goal.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Its so easy to pick holes and make fun......lets see if you can give some honest answers about Phaneufs play and justify them....FFS please don`t talk about Clarkson in your answers, thats getting so boring.......i`d just like some honest opinions on Phaneuf....in your opinion.....back them up

Yes it is easy to pick holes. Just like you commenting only on Phaneuf's negative.

Clarkson's salary and Phaneuf's salary are inter related. By giving Clarkson the pay that the Leafs did, they can't expect Phaneuf to take less, no matter what you think. Phaneuf is more productive than Clarkson in every possible measure, while being a defencemen with more responsibilities. Why should he take less?

Also several post back you said Phaneuf derives his +/- from playing alot with the top line. Hmm good argument except Bozak is at +6, Kessel is +1 and van Riemsdyk is -1. Phaneuf is at a whopping +19. So he isn't just generating his +/- from playing with the first line. Bozak has the highest +/- of the forward corp. Your explanation still doesn't account for Phaneuf's mind boggling +/- score on the leafs. Could it be possible that Phaneuf is actually an effective defencemen?

Seems to me you are not giving Phaneuf enough credit. For a guy who went out of his way to research relative corsi to justify Clarkson's pay, you don't seem to want to go and look for anything to justify Dion's pay in relation to the Leaf's salary structure.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  15:07:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 6751...maybe you are right, maybe i do give him too much of a hard time. Its just so frustrating sometimes when he makes these bone-head plays, getting caught giving up odd man rushes which many times lead to an opposing goal.....or the leaf net minder having to come up with a huge save.

A friend of mine was in Florida last week and caught both games. Phaneuf ( along with J. Reimer ) came outside after the game and took photos with them, was nice of them i must say.....they tried to corner kessel but he gave them the slip

As to Clarkson, i mostly defend Nonis for this signing because he had an opportunity to sign a dam good hockey player to his team and he did. So many Good UFA`s have slipped through Toronto`s fingers during the summer months in the past. Is he making too much money ??...probably.....is the term too long ??...probably.....But UFA`s have the GM`s by the nut sack and they know it which usually leads to overpayment.

I will still say that Clarkson ( in my opinion ) will be a major, major addition to the leafs if they go into the post season. From what i`ve seen of him ( not his points to date of course ) he is what playoff hockey is all about and should shine in the post season.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
Jump To:
Snitz Forums 2000 Go To Top Of Page