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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
 Posted - 11/05/2007 : 15:48:18
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I have to admit something that many of you have figured out already. I do not like Russian hockey players. This stems from the fact that I do not respect Russian hockey. I will elaborate, and then ask you to share your opinions.
I have been watching the World Junior Championship religiously since 1993, the year Kariya, Gratton, Pronger, Legace, and Rob Neidermeyer won as a bunch of 17-year olds. It was a great tourney.
In the years since, I have watched Russian hockey playes flop around and fake injuries, make rude gestures to Canadian players and officials, hot dog it to no end, and generally show disrespect for the game. The only thing better to a Russian hockey player than scoring a goal on a great individual effort is to draw a penalty by faking an injury. It makes me sick. I realize some Canadians and Americans do this too, at times, and I don't like it, but it is institutionalized into Russian hockey. Perhaps it is their soccer background, I don't know.
In summing up Russian hockey, I often say one statement - Russians have no "code".
Many of these players continue this behavior into the NHL, and often they have three or four great years where they look like Hall of Famers, sign a big fat contract, and then become also-ran third liners, and eventually out of the league.
They show a lack of effort, or a lack of desire...something. Look at Gonchar. He's awesome when he cares. He cares about four nights a season. Kovalchuk is every bit as talented as Crosby, but he'll never challenge for a scoring title. He gets hot, gets some attention, and then disappears again. Afinogenov is another one with million dollar legs and a ten cent heart.
Zhamnov, Valeri Bure, Stanislav Chistov, Alexey Morozov, Andrie Zhuzin, Viktor Kozlov, Zherdev, Radulov, Federov (aside from four or five great years)...I could go on.
Yes, there are a few Canadians who fit this description as well, but it is the rule for Russian hockey players, not the exception. To prove I'm not just anti-Euro, I have no problem with Fins or Swedes. Czechs and Slovaks are so-so.
If I had an NHL team, I'd have no Russians on it. I can't trust them to play a full season, and I don't believe they are in it for the team. They are in it for a big fat contract that will get them out of the turnip lines when they move back home (if they choose not to stay, which many of them do anyway).
Am I wrong? Your comments....
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 15:55:43
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So fly your basically saying you dislike all russians?
And also, you would turn down players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Radulov, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk and others, if they wanted to play on your team?
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
Edited by - Greg Smith on 11/05/2007 15:56:37 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 16:02:33
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I think Ovechkin has a chance, because he really seems to love the game, and he has a passion I have not seen in another Russian player - ever. But he's a hotdog, too. Did you hear him on the after-game hilights a few nights ago when he scored a bunch on the Leafs?
He said, "Nobody can stop me...but me"
If a Canadian had said that our own press would have eaten him alive. Instead, they laughed because it was "cute".
I didn't think it was cute, I thought it was disrespctful to the Leafs. And I hate the Leafs.
Yeah, I guess I dislike all Russians. I'm not saying they can't be great hockey players. The fact that they could be is what drives me crazy. That and their smug individualism. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 17:07:56
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I think you have a point about a number of Russian players. Of course there are some that actually have a very strong and admirable "team concept" feeling, but perhaps express it in a different (quieter/less apparent) way than a lot of North American players do.
Ovechkin seems a little different from some of the guys you mentioned character-wise. And to me he came across as much more than half-kidding the other night. No big deal. If you're the Leaf coach and it's the playoffs, maybe you try to use it to motivate your team, but guys (including Canadian guys) have given teams a lot better to work with than that in the past I would imagine. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 17:10:05
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Perhaps it is their soccer background, I don't know.
By that logic, if the Brits played hockey they must be absolutely crazy! LOL...the Russians, while they do play soccer, aren't exactly known for it the way Brazil or England or Germany or Italy are. I think the dirtiness comes from the Soviet era...intenisive training, the rest of the world hated them, and they had to be the best (but often weren't, and they faced embarassment for it back at home). It's carried over into their style of play today.
As for Russian players, a lot of them are very lazy. Kovalchuk and Kovalev could be amazing if they actually cared. Ovechkin and Fedorov seem to be the only exceptions. The rest are sorta just there...they have their good moments, but usually just coast through the season.
____________________
Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 17:43:11
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Russians are typically my FAVORITE hockey players...They are a lot of fun to watch out there.....A lot more fun than your average canadian (sorry)....the only players who can rival russians in terms of entertainment value are the americans (they are a lot more entertaining in interviews than canadians)....
I don't know about you guys, but if I was guarenteed millions of dollars, regardless of my performance, I would lose some of that drive I had before....Most Russian hockey players of our generation (ie..my generation...ie that wall was still up for part of my life) come from poverty the likes of which a canadian will never see...A russian hockey players dream is probably to make millions of dollars...Not to win some big cup he would have never seen back in russia growing up.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 18:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Most Russian hockey players of our generation (ie..my generation...ie that wall was still up for part of my life) come from poverty the likes of which a canadian will never see...A russian hockey players dream is probably to make millions of dollars...Not to win some big cup he would have never seen back in russia growing up.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
If they come from such poverty, then shouldn't they want to secure themselves even more, instead of the typical four years of amazing play and then start to suck? If the Cup means so little to them, I'd wish they stay in Russia and give more Canadian kids a chance to make the bigs.
As for the entertainmnet concept, yeah, I get that somewhat, but I get my true entertainment value from guys who play with heart and talent - like Lecavalier, Iginla, Crosby, Sakic, Messier, Gretzky, Yzerman, Orr, etc. etc. All Canadians, if you notice. Being flamboyant may be entertaining, but it does not make you a winner, or make you relevant long-term. I guess I'm assuming that is important to everyone. You're right, it probably isn't. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 18:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Most Russian hockey players of our generation (ie..my generation...ie that wall was still up for part of my life) come from poverty the likes of which a canadian will never see...A russian hockey players dream is probably to make millions of dollars...Not to win some big cup he would have never seen back in russia growing up.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
If they come from such poverty, then shouldn't they want to secure themselves even more, instead of the typical four years of amazing play and then start to suck? If the Cup means so little to them, I'd wish they stay in Russia and give more Canadian kids a chance to make the bigs.
As for the entertainmnet concept, yeah, I get that somewhat, but I get my true entertainment value from guys who play with heart and talent - like Lecavalier, Iginla, Crosby, Sakic, Messier, Gretzky, Yzerman, Orr, etc. etc. All Canadians, if you notice. Being flamboyant may be entertaining, but it does not make you a winner, or make you relevant long-term. I guess I'm assuming that is important to everyone. You're right, it probably isn't.
Well, I don't watch hockey for "winners"...I watch hockey to be entertained...And I would spend my paycheck any day to watch Pavel Bure over Mark Messier.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 19:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Most Russian hockey players of our generation (ie..my generation...ie that wall was still up for part of my life) come from poverty the likes of which a canadian will never see...A russian hockey players dream is probably to make millions of dollars...Not to win some big cup he would have never seen back in russia growing up.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
If they come from such poverty, then shouldn't they want to secure themselves even more, instead of the typical four years of amazing play and then start to suck? If the Cup means so little to them, I'd wish they stay in Russia and give more Canadian kids a chance to make the bigs.
As for the entertainmnet concept, yeah, I get that somewhat, but I get my true entertainment value from guys who play with heart and talent - like Lecavalier, Iginla, Crosby, Sakic, Messier, Gretzky, Yzerman, Orr, etc. etc. All Canadians, if you notice. Being flamboyant may be entertaining, but it does not make you a winner, or make you relevant long-term. I guess I'm assuming that is important to everyone. You're right, it probably isn't.
Well, I don't watch hockey for "winners"...I watch hockey to be entertained...And I would spend my paycheck any day to watch Pavel Bure over Mark Messier.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
That's where we differ. If I simply want entertainment, I'd go to a movie where I know the outcome. For me, sports is all about winning and heart. It's why every year, when the Cup is raised, I cry like a five year old girl. I'm sure you'll love that, considering your no crying in hockey stance. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 15:00:55
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Fly, your not alone, I dislike the russians too. But the fact is that there is nothing anybody can do to stop russians from playing in the NHL or to prevent players like ovechkin from saying things like that.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 15:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
Fly, your not alone, I dislike the russians too. But the fact is that there is nothing anybody can do to stop russians from playing in the NHL or to prevent players like ovechkin from saying things like that.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games.
Here's a very evil thought I've had in my brain for years now...
People have talked about the ways the game has gone downhill in this way or that over the years. I can put the blame on almost all of this on the Russians, and in fact the influence of European hockey in general. I laugh my butt off when people say that the NHL is now played in a free-flowing, skillful European style league now that they have made some rule changes.
Spoken like people who have never watched a Russian or other European elite league game. I have, and it is painful. Like watching a rec hockey game at your local arena, but without the goal scoring. Blech. If your idea of a good time is 60 minutes on no-contact hockey with lots of stick swinging and a 1-0 score, Russian elite division games are for you!
I know you can't send them back, and probably should not entertain the idea because it is a bit politically uncorrect, but would I be sad if the league was 85% Canadian, 12% American, and 3% European again, like it was 30 years ago? Heck no.
Yes, those numbers are my own estimates. If I'm off, who cares? You get my point.
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 15:40:12
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| Russians may be disliked by a lot of people but I can not say that I am one of them. You might not like Russians for any reason you might have but you cant denie one thing. When a skilled Russian like Ovechkin or Bure has the puck, they are exciting to watch. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 15:57:27
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Thanks, but I'd way rather see Crosby or Thornton with the puck anyday. Ovechkin isn't terrible, i just don't like his arrogant attitude.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 16:32:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
Russians may be disliked by a lot of people but I can not say that I am one of them. You might not like Russians for any reason you might have but you cant denie one thing. When a skilled Russian like Ovechkin or Bure has the puck, they are exciting to watch.
I don't deny that Ovechkin has amazing talent. But what will he do with it beyond this season and the next? Russians do tend to be individually dynamic talents. Good for highlight reels. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 17:14:53
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Couldn't agree with you more Fly! I used to like Afinogenov but he really hasn't proved him self this year and this was the year where he needes to shine.
Guys like Kovalchuk and Kovalev have the skill set to do a lot and control every game. In my mind Ovechkin is one of those Russian players who is way more consistent. Most Russian players are selfish. There is one Russian player who is a little different. Anton Volchenkov, when was the last time a Russian lead the league in blocked shots? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 18:04:47
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I think the things you talk about regarding Russian Players is the stereotype created by the media and the history of CAN vs. USSR hockey. People think that Russians are lazy, have all the talent but no heart, blah blah blah.
So immediately with a guy like Kovalev fall to the third line or Kovalchuk has a 6 game scoreless streak, these "See, all Russians are the same."Comments come.
But what about Volchenkov??? What about Daksuyk out there fighting off most penalty kills for Detroit?? There are great, hardworking, solid Russian hockey players.
If there are 30 teams and approx. 25 players (including scratches) on each team, that 750 players. The newest information I found was the 05/06 season. That year, 4.3% of the league was Russian. If that is still the case, then there are only about 30 Russians playing the league today. Of course a handful of lazy players make the whole group look bad.
So the 10 Lazy, no heart Russians can not hide in a group of 30. But the 53% Canadian NHL content can more easily hide the lazy, no heart Canadians.
In fact, I would bet this group on here could think of more lazy, no heart Canadian players then there are Russians in the league today.
I'll start. Raffi Torres. 
Here's a link to a study on Nationality in the NHL
http://www.thephysicsofhockey.com/documents/country.pdf
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 19:39:26
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Russia has about 150 million people. Canada, 31 million. Let's go per capita. Why do they only have 30 or so players in the NHL? I'll tell you why. They suck, for the most part. That's not a media creation, that's me watching our junior team kick their butts in 7 out of 8 games in the so-called "Super-Series".
Yes, there are a few good players from Russia with heart. I'll call them exceptions to the rule. The rest are Kovalchuks. Potentially great, never realized for more than a season or two or a night or two in a row.
Raffi Torres is no Kovalchuk. My problem is gifted players with awesome talent and no heart. Not crappy players with no talent and no heart.
Datsyuk is an awesome talent. How many goals does he have on the second highest scoring team in the league?
2.
Kirk Maltby has 3. Kris Draper has 5. Not skilled guys...determined guys.
Datsyuk has the moves and talent to get 50 goals. He's on pace for 11. That's brutal.
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Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/06/2007 19:40:06 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 19:45:02
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| What you're saying fly is completely rite. Is Ryan Smyth skilled? No, but he has heart and works hard and he pots in 30 goals or more a season. Afinogenov,Datsyuk and Kovalchuk could be 50 goal scorers easy. There's not many Russian players with true heart for the game. Anton Volchenkov in my mind is the only one. Fly what's your thoughts on how Anton Volchenkov plays? |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
What you're saying fly is completely rite. Is Ryan Smyth skilled? No, but he has heart and works hard and he pots in 30 goals or more a season. Afinogenov,Datsyuk and Kovalchuk could be 50 goal scorers easy. There's not many Russian players with true heart for the game. Anton Volchenkov in my mind is the only one. Fly what's your thoughts on how Anton Volchenkov plays?
I like Volchenkov. He's one of my favourite Russian players for sure. You don't lead the league in blocked shots if you don't have some grit. We'll see if he keeps diving in front of shots for years to come. I suspect he will...he's a guy who lets his play do the talking. |
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Thrasher17
Top Prospect
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:24:59
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Everyone here seems to be bashing Kovalchuk and calling him lazy. Although I have no arguments against his defensive ability, I don't see how anyone can argue that he is lazy offensively (which is what he is being paid to do).
He is playing in his 6th season in the league and has increased his offensive output every year except last year where he had 77 points. I don't know how much truth there is to it, but apparently he did not get along well with Bob Hartley. I would assume there is some truth to that considering that kovalchuk has scored 15 points (9G, 6A) in the 9 games since Hartley was fired.
During the 2005-06 season, just after Kovalchuk signed his BIG contract that all Russians desire before becoming lazy, Kovalchuk had the best year of his career with 98 points (52G, 46A) in 78 games.
This year, he is on pace to break 110 points with 70 goals. Although I doubt he will quite reach the 70 goals, I think those kinds of points are far from lazy. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher17
Everyone here seems to be bashing Kovalchuk and calling him lazy. Although I have no arguments against his defensive ability, I don't see how anyone can argue that he is lazy offensively (which is what he is being paid to do).
He is playing in his 6th season in the league and has increased his offensive output every year except last year where he had 77 points. I don't know how much truth there is to it, but apparently he did not get along well with Bob Hartley. I would assume there is some truth to that considering that kovalchuk has scored 15 points (9G, 6A) in the 9 games since Hartley was fired.
During the 2005-06 season, just after Kovalchuk signed his BIG contract that all Russians desire before becoming lazy, Kovalchuk had the best year of his career with 98 points (52G, 46A) in 78 games.
This year, he is on pace to break 110 points with 70 goals. Although I doubt he will quite reach the 70 goals, I think those kinds of points are far from lazy.
You kind of answered your own question. He IS a very capable player. No argument here. But the difference between what he is capable of and what he has actually achieved are two different things. When he plays a couple of full seasons to his potential, I'll change my views on him.
Don't get me wrong, I think he's one of the most talented guys in the league, Maybe even better than Ovechkin. But he should play like it every night, not just on the ones he feel like it. |
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Guest7618
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Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:45:21
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| Certainly among my longtime favorite defensemen stands Sergei Zubov. Last time I looked, he was Russian. He can be on my team anytime, anywhere. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:51:31
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Hey everybody, I just thought of a Russian I like. Slava Kozlov. I like Slava Kozlov.
Consistently good, not a hotdog, just plays hard and seems to love the game.
Slava, I love you. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:52:01
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| Yeah, Zubov is okay too. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 23:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Well, I don't watch hockey for "winners"...I watch hockey to be entertained...And I would spend my paycheck any day to watch Pavel Bure over Mark Messier.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
Here Here!!
Russian players can be very entertaining and alot of fun to watch. Anyone else see that Kovalchuk goal tonight? What a buety!
Also how can you not trust Ovechkin to play a full season? The guy simply loves to play hockey and goes and works his ass off every single night.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Guest2320
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 07:52:25
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| Danny Markov. Most heart from a Russian ever.! |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 10:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
Couldn't agree with you more Fly! I used to like Afinogenov but he really hasn't proved him self this year and this was the year where he needes to shine.
Guys like Kovalchuk and Kovalev have the skill set to do a lot and control every game. In my mind Ovechkin is one of those Russian players who is way more consistent. Most Russian players are selfish. There is one Russian player who is a little different. Anton Volchenkov, when was the last time a Russian lead the league in blocked shots?
Constantinov (from Red Wings) did it pretty well. |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 10:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I think Ovechkin has a chance, because he really seems to love the game, and he has a passion I have not seen in another Russian player - ever. But he's a hotdog, too. Did you hear him on the after-game hilights a few nights ago when he scored a bunch on the Leafs?
He said, "Nobody can stop me...but me"
If a Canadian had said that our own press would have eaten him alive. Instead, they laughed because it was "cute".
I didn't think it was cute, I thought it was disrespctful to the Leafs. And I hate the Leafs.
Yeah, I guess I dislike all Russians. I'm not saying they can't be great hockey players. The fact that they could be is what drives me crazy. That and their smug individualism.
I truly believe that Ovechkin is the exception. I rather like his personality. I don't find too many russians exhibiting such flamboyancy. On a personal level, it makes for great entertainment.
Brett Hull is another one that is great to listen to. (Although not russian, just fun to listen to).
As for the "Nobody can stop me...but me" comment, I thought it was great! How many times have we heard the same old canned responses being spouted from players' lips? Players such as crosby (I know I'm gonna get flak from you for mentioning his name :). It usually goes something like: Well, we gotta really dig in and try not to take any unnecessary penalties. We have to keep the pressure on, and take care of things in our own zone...etc, etc...
Well duh! We-the-fans already know that!
And I believe that Ovechkin wasn't being serious when he said that.
I also believe that Pavel Bure was another russian who never stopped being a super star. He consistently scored 50-60 goals almost every season. And made for some great highlight reels (cause YOU know how much I love those ) |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 11/07/2007 11:08:20 |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 12:16:13
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I personally like Beans’ comments.
Your hatred of Russian probably comes from the Cold War era, when everyone but the Russians hated the Russains, and deservedly so.
Gonchar has played in the NHL for 13 years, amassing 562 points as a defenseman. While they’re not Bobby Orr or Ray Bourque type numbers, they’re solid. Compare that to Bryan McCabe who’s been in the league for 11 years and has only 399 points. I’d pick the Russian in this case.
Pavel Bure ended up with 779 points in 702 games. Unfortunately he was riddled with injuries his entire Career, however he had 90+ points in every season where he played more than 70 games.
The year before the lockout saw a three-way tie for the Maurice Richard Trophy. Kovalchuk, Iginla and Nash all finished the season with 41 goals. Nash has fallen off since, while it can be argued that Kovalchuk’s stats are just as good as Iginla since. I don’t think Kovalchuk’s production fell any worse last year than Iginla’s did in 2005-2006.
You’ve claimed that most Russians are divers, and play to get penalties. I ask you to turn on the TV and watch Steve Avery play, or Darcy Tucker, both are notorious divers, and the last time I checked, they’re Canadian.
Trash talking is part of the game. I didn’t hear anyone complain when Patrick Roy made the “I’ve got my two Stanley cup rings plugging my ears” comment.
Watch any episode of Off The Record where Brian McGratton and/or Ray Emery are the guest and you’ll see disrespect from Canadian players.
North Americans play a more physical game, but with physicality comes stupidness in some cases. Bouldrice, Jones, Downie, all suspended this year for stupid hits. Bertuzzi and McSorley were both charged criminally for on-ice hits, both were Canadian. Going even further back, in game 6 of the Summit Series, Bobby Clarke deliberately slashed Valerei Kharlamov fracturing his ankle. Is this Canadian Hockey? I’d say that these incidents don’t have a place in hockey.
In closing I say this.
Let’s kick all the Russians like Gonchar out of the league, and bring in more Canadians like Wade Belak.
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 12:59:52
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So, what you are saying Fly is that if a player doesn't reach their potential they have no heart?? Or is that they have no heart so they don't reach their potential?? Not insinuating anything, just a little confused with what you are saying.
I brought up Datsyuk because the guy comes to the rink every night. Every game I have ever watched him play is that way. So what if he has the talent to score 50 goals and he scores 11? What does he bring to his team?? That's where the heart comes in and that's why I brought him up.
And Ryan Smyth?? That's a perfect example of a player who gets MORE credit than they deserve because he's a Canadian with Heart. I will never argue that the guy would die in a game if it would help the team win. But he has arguable the best hands in the league in front of the net. So where are his points?? He could be a 50 goal guy too, but he doesn't produce that. Yet, because he's a Canadian with Heart, people let it slide. Smyth could go out and get 20 points this year and still be a God in some people's eyes. He is heralded by many as a "superstar" and such a great player. You could not build a Cup winning team around that guy. In my opinion, and far before he left the Oilers, was over rated. Great wing man. Great Second Fiddle. Great Guy to have on your team. But a superstar?? I don't think so.
Datsuyk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Volchenkov, Markov, Zubov, Kovlov, all of these guys I would put on my team ahead of Smyth.
And finally, you don't have to play physically to show heart. The desire to win and do what it takes to help your team succeed shows heart. That could be on the score board, it could be in the corners, it could be in many different ways. Let's not mistake physical play for heart. I can think of one 160lber from Brantford who played with more heart than most anyone in the league today, and he was never physical.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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Guest4714
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 16:40:19
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My favorite Russian players are Zubov, Ovechkin, Fedorov (when he was good), Vyacheslav Kozlov, Volchenkov, Danny Markov, Datsyuk, and Afinogenov. They actually seem to care, while the others are either just there or don't play with a heart and just coast through even though they have great potential. Not every Russian is like this though.
Russki hokkei nye plokhoi, a lyen -- Russian hockey isn't bad, just lazy |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 16:40:43
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^ That was me again...I keep forgetting to log in
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Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 16:43:31
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As usual, I am misunderstood.
No, a player does not have to be physical to have heart. They have to play hard, and have the ability to elevate their game naturally when necessary. He needs to love the game and care about his team and his teammates.
As I've repeated many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many friggin' times - not ALL Canadians are perfect examples of non-diving, respectful players. But for Canadians, divers and disrespectfulness is the exception, NOT THE RULE!! For every Sean Avery, there are 20 class guys like Iginla. Name 20 character players for each gutless Russian.
Comparing Kovalchuk to Iginla makes me want to puke, seriously. If there is one GM in the league that would take that hotdog coach killer showboat Kovalchuk over Iginla, he should be fired on the spot and sent to Siberia.
Last, SuperSakic - with all due respect to Konstantinov and what he has been through in his life, he was not a respected player. Other players called him dirty - perhaps the dirtiest player in the league. He was, in fact, hated until he was nearly killed in the limo accident. My heart goes out to him, but he is a terrible example for the point you were trying unsuccessfully to make. |
Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/07/2007 16:44:29 |
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Guest4059
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 17:02:37
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Hmmm so you hate russians because they have the ability "hot dog" and can make some goalies look like they still play in house league. I personally love watching players from all over the world play in NHL because to be quite honest with you, if it was only Canada and the US in the nhl, it would pretty boring I think. So eliminate the talent of players like Bure and Fedorov from back in the day. Hell as long as you are wanting to see players from around the world taken out, it would be 50 goal games if it was only Canadian and US goalies.
From the way some canadians look at the NHL, you might as well make it the CHL (take off of the CFL), Wow wouldnt that be an interesting like probally just like the CFL. BORING. Hating a Nationality because the attitudes of so few is wrong. Might as well throw some Canadians and US players in there as well if you want to take players with no heart (i,e. Bertuzzi and Lindros, maybe even Brett Hall. Hell ever watch "Syd the Kid" complain?)
Stop looking at it as a problem with a Nation of hockey and understand how good they actually can be.
Anyone remember "The Russian Redwings" from a couple years ago.... I believe we could put them in the same category as The New England Patriots of today. A dominating team that never really seemed to be injured and could not be stopped. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4059
Hating a Nationality because the attitudes of so few is wrong.
Come on, stop exaggerating. He's not saying he hates ALL Russians, he's just saying he doesn't like Russian hockey players because of their style of play. He's not saying he hates the players as people, just that their style sucks. Big difference.
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Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 11/07/2007 18:54:31 |
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Guest4714
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
^ That was me again...I keep forgetting to log in
By the way, I have nothing against Russian players or anything, but it is a valid observation to point out that some are a bit lazy. However, you can't ignore guys like the players I just named. I would put them on my team ahead of some Canadians. Who would you take--Ovechkin or Cloutier? Malkin or Eaton, or some no-name guy like that?
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Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:50:44
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Gaahh...I meant to hit the edit button, not the quote button on that one.
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Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 19:15:06
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quote:
Comparing Kovalchuk to Iginla makes me want to puke, seriously. If there is one GM in the league that would take that hotdog coach killer showboat Kovalchuk over Iginla, he should be fired on the spot and sent to Siberia.
I never said that I would trade Iginla to get Kovalchuk, i simply stated that their post-lockout stats are similar.
I'll go on to say that any GM in the league would love to have a player like Kovalchuk on their team if the deal was right. If they don't want him, they should be fired and sent to Siberia as well.
Russians are taught to play a different style of game than Canadians. You're entitled to your opinion. I personally like seeing guys like Datsyuk, Ovechkin and Kovalchuk undress defencemen and goalies. It take skill. Maybe they don't have heart you're looking for, that's why you don't see any Russian Captains in the league, no one is asking them to lead the team.
Don't let their lack of heart take away from their skill. The game has become faster and better in my opinion since the Russians and Europeans have arrived. And yes they do have a place in the NHL.
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 20:54:43
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| Sergei Brylin is a another Russian. He's on the checking line and kills penalty's, not lazy in my mind. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 21:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
quote:
Comparing Kovalchuk to Iginla makes me want to puke, seriously. If there is one GM in the league that would take that hotdog coach killer showboat Kovalchuk over Iginla, he should be fired on the spot and sent to Siberia.
I never said that I would trade Iginla to get Kovalchuk, i simply stated that their post-lockout stats are similar.
I'll go on to say that any GM in the league would love to have a player like Kovalchuk on their team if the deal was right. If they don't want him, they should be fired and sent to Siberia as well.
Russians are taught to play a different style of game than Canadians. You're entitled to your opinion. I personally like seeing guys like Datsyuk, Ovechkin and Kovalchuk undress defencemen and goalies. It take skill. Maybe they don't have heart you're looking for, that's why you don't see any Russian Captains in the league, no one is asking them to lead the team.
Don't let their lack of heart take away from their skill. The game has become faster and better in my opinion since the Russians and Europeans have arrived. And yes they do have a place in the NHL.
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall.
I'm tired of this argument. Canadians are far more skilled, overall. If not, why do we beat the crap out of them 7 times with one tie in the so-called "Super-series", outscoring them 34-13?
Russians are coached the Canadian system now, but they don't get it. If you watched the Super-series, they talked at length about how Russia has tried to teach Canadian hockey to their young players, but they can't match the heart. Now they can't match the overall skill, either, so they get massacred.
The NHL is not faster because of Europeans. Don't believe me? Go to Europe and watch a game. The hockey is brutal. Rec hockey with no goal scoring. The worst thing the NHL ever did was let them bring their weak brand of hockey over here and pass it off as "skilled" because a few of them can skate fast and shoot well.
How is Ovechkin looking lately, by the way? I thought he was the next coming of Jesus Christ a couple of years ago. Now he looks like the second coming of Zherdev.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 21:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4059
Hmmm so you hate russians because they have the ability "hot dog" and can make some goalies look like they still play in house league. I personally love watching players from all over the world play in NHL because to be quite honest with you, if it was only Canada and the US in the nhl, it would pretty boring I think. So eliminate the talent of players like Bure and Fedorov from back in the day. Hell as long as you are wanting to see players from around the world taken out, it would be 50 goal games if it was only Canadian and US goalies.
From the way some canadians look at the NHL, you might as well make it the CHL (take off of the CFL), Wow wouldnt that be an interesting like probally just like the CFL. BORING. Hating a Nationality because the attitudes of so few is wrong. Might as well throw some Canadians and US players in there as well if you want to take players with no heart (i,e. Bertuzzi and Lindros, maybe even Brett Hall. Hell ever watch "Syd the Kid" complain?)
Stop looking at it as a problem with a Nation of hockey and understand how good they actually can be.
Anyone remember "The Russian Redwings" from a couple years ago.... I believe we could put them in the same category as The New England Patriots of today. A dominating team that never really seemed to be injured and could not be stopped.
Anyone who does not know it's Sidney Crosby (not Syd), and Brett Hull (not Hall for god's sake man...the Hull name is a friggin' hockey institution!!) does not deserve my time. That or saying Lindros has no heart. That's ignorant. How many Olympic gold medals do you have?
The NHL with only Canadian players would be the equivalent of the boring CFL, huh? There is so much wrong with that statement I give up, dude. |
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Why I Dislike Russian Hockey Players 
