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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2007 : 21:57:12
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I don't think that some people are quite understanding what fly is trying to say here. When I read the first opening post to this topic by fly I agreed 100%. I don't know what it is about the Russians and some other Europeans either. I mean they just seem to be more lazy, unclassy, and they don't seem to care about their teams as much then all the other hockey players out there ON AVERAGE. They seem to care more about their personal stats. No one is saying that there aren't any lazy, unclassy Canadians or Americans or whatever. But to think of a guy like Kovalchuk who rides his stick when he scores an open net goal like he did a few years ago, it's sickening. A guy like Jagr. GREAT player. Plays when he wants. And look at his salary. Before the cap he was the highest paid player in the NHL. And now? When he has an off season it is because..."he's not happy" or "he doesn't like where he is". Please give me a break! How about it is because you don't have the heart to take a bad looking team and try working with them! The guy turned down the Captaincy when he first came to the Rangers because he didn't want to be responsible if they had a bad season!!! Come on! Suck it up a little and play the game. I think THIS is what fly is trying to say. Maybe I'm wrong. But that is how I took his post.
Also, so what IF Russians MAY be more exciting to watch? I mean I enjoy a passing game as much as a scoring game. I enjoy watching Thornton do what he does for example. Watching him suck two players towards him leaving a player on his team open for the pass(which he always makes). i think that that beautiful aspect of the game is forgotten when Ovechkin scores a pretty goal(but is still a -3 at the end of the night...lazy factor? No back checking?) Passing and controlling the play is just as exciting.
Another thing that i wanted to say...I have played hockey as high as varsity level in a Canadian university. I have been to both Canadian and Russian hockey schools. In fact I have been to a Russian hockey school that was run by Nikolai Borschevsky. He played with the Leafs for a bit. Anyway, let me tell you guys the difference between the schools. The Canadian hockey school was about hitting, passing, and scoring. In that order. The Russian school was about shooting and scoring. I know that this is just one example but it did really form my opinion on the two different styles of play. And I thnk you guys know which one I think is better, lol. |
Edited by - ED11 on 11/07/2007 22:00:37 |
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Guest9656
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 08:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
As usual, I am misunderstood.
No, a player does not have to be physical to have heart. They have to play hard, and have the ability to elevate their game naturally when necessary. He needs to love the game and care about his team and his teammates.
As I've repeated many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many friggin' times - not ALL Canadians are perfect examples of non-diving, respectful players. But for Canadians, divers and disrespectfulness is the exception, NOT THE RULE!! For every Sean Avery, there are 20 class guys like Iginla. Name 20 character players for each gutless Russian.
Comparing Kovalchuk to Iginla makes me want to puke, seriously. If there is one GM in the league that would take that hotdog coach killer showboat Kovalchuk over Iginla, he should be fired on the spot and sent to Siberia.
Last, SuperSakic - with all due respect to Konstantinov and what he has been through in his life, he was not a respected player. Other players called him dirty - perhaps the dirtiest player in the league. He was, in fact, hated until he was nearly killed in the limo accident. My heart goes out to him, but he is a terrible example for the point you were trying unsuccessfully to make.
I think you actually missed the point I was trying to make, as you proceeded to attack Konstantinov's personality rather than his ability to block shots. And I've seen much dirtier players than Konstantinov. I think that by virtue of him being russian, he was much more vilified. If he was a Canadian he would have been shown as one who has "heart". If you ask me, I thought he actually played a canadian style of game.
Claude Lemieux was seen as a trouble-maker, but no one could say that he didn't play with heart... |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 08:12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9656
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
As usual, I am misunderstood.
No, a player does not have to be physical to have heart. They have to play hard, and have the ability to elevate their game naturally when necessary. He needs to love the game and care about his team and his teammates.
As I've repeated many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many friggin' times - not ALL Canadians are perfect examples of non-diving, respectful players. But for Canadians, divers and disrespectfulness is the exception, NOT THE RULE!! For every Sean Avery, there are 20 class guys like Iginla. Name 20 character players for each gutless Russian.
Comparing Kovalchuk to Iginla makes me want to puke, seriously. If there is one GM in the league that would take that hotdog coach killer showboat Kovalchuk over Iginla, he should be fired on the spot and sent to Siberia.
Last, SuperSakic - with all due respect to Konstantinov and what he has been through in his life, he was not a respected player. Other players called him dirty - perhaps the dirtiest player in the league. He was, in fact, hated until he was nearly killed in the limo accident. My heart goes out to him, but he is a terrible example for the point you were trying unsuccessfully to make.
I think you actually missed the point I was trying to make, as you proceeded to attack Konstantinov's personality rather than his ability to block shots. And I've seen much dirtier players than Konstantinov. I think that by virtue of him being russian, he was much more vilified. If he was a Canadian he would have been shown as one who has "heart". If you ask me, I thought he actually played a canadian style of game.
Claude Lemieux was seen as a trouble-maker, but no one could say that he didn't play with heart...
Forgot to login....that was me  |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 08:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So, what you are saying Fly is that if a player doesn't reach their potential they have no heart?? Or is that they have no heart so they don't reach their potential?? Not insinuating anything, just a little confused with what you are saying.
I brought up Datsyuk because the guy comes to the rink every night. Every game I have ever watched him play is that way. So what if he has the talent to score 50 goals and he scores 11? What does he bring to his team?? That's where the heart comes in and that's why I brought him up.
And Ryan Smyth?? That's a perfect example of a player who gets MORE credit than they deserve because he's a Canadian with Heart. I will never argue that the guy would die in a game if it would help the team win. But he has arguable the best hands in the league in front of the net. So where are his points?? He could be a 50 goal guy too, but he doesn't produce that. Yet, because he's a Canadian with Heart, people let it slide. Smyth could go out and get 20 points this year and still be a God in some people's eyes. He is heralded by many as a "superstar" and such a great player. You could not build a Cup winning team around that guy. In my opinion, and far before he left the Oilers, was over rated. Great wing man. Great Second Fiddle. Great Guy to have on your team. But a superstar?? I don't think so.
Datsuyk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Volchenkov, Markov, Zubov, Kovlov, all of these guys I would put on my team ahead of Smyth.
I have always thought the same about Smyth. Way over-hyped. Why do they call him "captain canada"? My olympic or worldcup teams would have a hundred guys before him.... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 10:44:06
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Fly, I disagree with half of you assesment on what heart is. Heart is definately playing hard and caring about your team and team mates. However, the ability to raise you game to the next level has nothing to do with heart. If you looked up "Hockey Player with Heart" in the dictionary, you would see Kelly Buchburgers picture. But the guy did not have the skills to raise himself up and win a game for his team.
That being said, I still think that the point that there are fewer Russian players in the league make the good one's look worse because there are few to compare. You are dead right that for every Volchenkov or Datsuyk who work their ass off every night there is a Kovalev or a Kovalchuk who will take the odd game and/or shift off. However, for every Ryan Smyth there is a Raffi Torres. A guy who shows up once every ten games, and for the rest of the time he might as well be slinging beer in the stands.
The fact of the matter is that I think we need the Russians in the league. Not because they are Russians, but because of the style of game they play. How many Canadians (honestly) can raise a guy out if his seat every time he touches the puck like Kovalchuk?? I can think of maybe 10-15. Out of 500+ Canadians in the league?? That's pretty weak in it's self, no??
I personally love watching Kovalev/Kovalchuk type of players at their best. I can handle them taking a night off here or there because I personally don't care about the teams they are on. They bring an excitement to the game that few Canadian Players can. When I am watching a game where Edmonton is not involved, I want to be entertained. If not, I am changing the channel. Kovalchuk makes me want to watch that game. Ryan Smyth doesn't.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 16:58:40
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I'd just like to say one more time....Ya, heart is nice and sweet. But I liked pavel Bure's skate to stick breakaway goal against Boston years ago a lot more than seeing ray bourque lifting the cup...That's just me, but common, if hockey was nothing but "heart players" it would be dull....Of course it would just be a lame all star game if it was just fancy boys....I guess you need the balance or your "heart guys" and your hotshots......let's be honest here, the NHL wouldn't be the NHL w/o the euros dangling around with their visors and their clean shaved faces...but at the same time, it wouldn't be the same without the fourth line beauties going out there trying there best, just trying to make a name for themselves.....It's these yins and yangs of hockey players that make hockey so entertaining, and I find both to be fun in their own way.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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Guest4059
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 17:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4059
Hmmm so you hate russians because they have the ability "hot dog" and can make some goalies look like they still play in house league. I personally love watching players from all over the world play in NHL because to be quite honest with you, if it was only Canada and the US in the nhl, it would pretty boring I think. So eliminate the talent of players like Bure and Fedorov from back in the day. Hell as long as you are wanting to see players from around the world taken out, it would be 50 goal games if it was only Canadian and US goalies.
From the way some canadians look at the NHL, you might as well make it the CHL (take off of the CFL), Wow wouldnt that be an interesting like probally just like the CFL. BORING. Hating a Nationality because the attitudes of so few is wrong. Might as well throw some Canadians and US players in there as well if you want to take players with no heart (i,e. Bertuzzi and Lindros, maybe even Brett Hall. Hell ever watch "Syd the Kid" complain?)
Stop looking at it as a problem with a Nation of hockey and understand how good they actually can be.
Anyone remember "The Russian Redwings" from a couple years ago.... I believe we could put them in the same category as The New England Patriots of today. A dominating team that never really seemed to be injured and could not be stopped.
Anyone who does not know it's Sidney Crosby (not Syd), and Brett Hull (not Hall for god's sake man...the Hull name is a friggin' hockey institution!!) does not deserve my time. That or saying Lindros has no heart. That's ignorant. How many Olympic gold medals do you have?
The NHL with only Canadian players would be the equivalent of the boring CFL, huh? There is so much wrong with that statement I give up, dude.
So you make the comment that having heart is trying and not giving up and whatever else. hmmm . Then you go on to ask me how many medals I have... Hmmm. I guess we see this in two different ways. I see this as pretty much anyone in the NHL has more heart then you and I will ever have. The dedication that got them into the NHL from the other side of the world. Probally just as much heart as us good ol Canadians. Now I am a Canadian, born and raised in the heart of hockey. It has been my life as most and I know the dedication and hours I have put into training and into the game, and our Canadian training programs dont touch how it is done else where in the world. I have a couple friends who were born there and came over in their late teens and hearing about how hockey is drilled into them as a kid, its more then a passion, its a lifestyle.
Us Canadians are very defensive expecially when it comes to our hockey. Look at it from this way, a russian goes and falls, we call it a dive, a canadian falls, we call it a trip. It works the same way as if someone does a hit to a player on your favorite team, most of us will be up in arms looking for a penalty, but then if the same exact hit happens to the team your against, you will comment on how its a nice hit. I doubt you will throw your hands up and look for that same call. A lot of players in the NHL complain, will throw down a dive if they can make it look like it was a trip. Like come on, its all over professional and minor sports.
And on the comment of Sydney Crosby, man I give the kid nothing but respect, but have you ever watched him for a full game, I have yet to see him not look like hes complaining about something. For him to have a "C" on his jersey just takes away from the meaning. Youngest captian now in NHL history. Thats to bad he took that record away from one of the classiest players of all time, who posesses in my opinion, the perfect example of "heart"... Steve Yzerman. Now if you can honestly tell me that Sydney is a new version of someone like that, then I can honestly not help you bud. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
I don't think that some people are quite understanding what fly is trying to say here. When I read the first opening post to this topic by fly I agreed 100%. I don't know what it is about the Russians and some other Europeans either. I mean they just seem to be more lazy, unclassy, and they don't seem to care about their teams as much then all the other hockey players out there ON AVERAGE. They seem to care more about their personal stats. No one is saying that there aren't any lazy, unclassy Canadians or Americans or whatever. But to think of a guy like Kovalchuk who rides his stick when he scores an open net goal like he did a few years ago, it's sickening. A guy like Jagr. GREAT player. Plays when he wants. And look at his salary. Before the cap he was the highest paid player in the NHL. And now? When he has an off season it is because..."he's not happy" or "he doesn't like where he is". Please give me a break! How about it is because you don't have the heart to take a bad looking team and try working with them! The guy turned down the Captaincy when he first came to the Rangers because he didn't want to be responsible if they had a bad season!!! Come on! Suck it up a little and play the game. I think THIS is what fly is trying to say. Maybe I'm wrong. But that is how I took his post.
Also, so what IF Russians MAY be more exciting to watch? I mean I enjoy a passing game as much as a scoring game. I enjoy watching Thornton do what he does for example. Watching him suck two players towards him leaving a player on his team open for the pass(which he always makes). i think that that beautiful aspect of the game is forgotten when Ovechkin scores a pretty goal(but is still a -3 at the end of the night...lazy factor? No back checking?) Passing and controlling the play is just as exciting.
Another thing that i wanted to say...I have played hockey as high as varsity level in a Canadian university. I have been to both Canadian and Russian hockey schools. In fact I have been to a Russian hockey school that was run by Nikolai Borschevsky. He played with the Leafs for a bit. Anyway, let me tell you guys the difference between the schools. The Canadian hockey school was about hitting, passing, and scoring. In that order. The Russian school was about shooting and scoring. I know that this is just one example but it did really form my opinion on the two different styles of play. And I thnk you guys know which one I think is better, lol.
Sweet Jesus, thank you for ED11.
YES that is what I was trying to say. I think I did say it, some people just read what they want to read, though. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4059
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4059
Hmmm so you hate russians because they have the ability "hot dog" and can make some goalies look like they still play in house league. I personally love watching players from all over the world play in NHL because to be quite honest with you, if it was only Canada and the US in the nhl, it would pretty boring I think. So eliminate the talent of players like Bure and Fedorov from back in the day. Hell as long as you are wanting to see players from around the world taken out, it would be 50 goal games if it was only Canadian and US goalies.
From the way some canadians look at the NHL, you might as well make it the CHL (take off of the CFL), Wow wouldnt that be an interesting like probally just like the CFL. BORING. Hating a Nationality because the attitudes of so few is wrong. Might as well throw some Canadians and US players in there as well if you want to take players with no heart (i,e. Bertuzzi and Lindros, maybe even Brett Hall. Hell ever watch "Syd the Kid" complain?)
Stop looking at it as a problem with a Nation of hockey and understand how good they actually can be.
Anyone remember "The Russian Redwings" from a couple years ago.... I believe we could put them in the same category as The New England Patriots of today. A dominating team that never really seemed to be injured and could not be stopped.
Anyone who does not know it's Sidney Crosby (not Syd), and Brett Hull (not Hall for god's sake man...the Hull name is a friggin' hockey institution!!) does not deserve my time. That or saying Lindros has no heart. That's ignorant. How many Olympic gold medals do you have?
The NHL with only Canadian players would be the equivalent of the boring CFL, huh? There is so much wrong with that statement I give up, dude.
So you make the comment that having heart is trying and not giving up and whatever else. hmmm . Then you go on to ask me how many medals I have... Hmmm. I guess we see this in two different ways. I see this as pretty much anyone in the NHL has more heart then you and I will ever have. The dedication that got them into the NHL from the other side of the world. Probally just as much heart as us good ol Canadians. Now I am a Canadian, born and raised in the heart of hockey. It has been my life as most and I know the dedication and hours I have put into training and into the game, and our Canadian training programs dont touch how it is done else where in the world. I have a couple friends who were born there and came over in their late teens and hearing about how hockey is drilled into them as a kid, its more then a passion, its a lifestyle.
Us Canadians are very defensive expecially when it comes to our hockey. Look at it from this way, a russian goes and falls, we call it a dive, a canadian falls, we call it a trip. It works the same way as if someone does a hit to a player on your favorite team, most of us will be up in arms looking for a penalty, but then if the same exact hit happens to the team your against, you will comment on how its a nice hit. I doubt you will throw your hands up and look for that same call. A lot of players in the NHL complain, will throw down a dive if they can make it look like it was a trip. Like come on, its all over professional and minor sports.
And on the comment of Sydney Crosby, man I give the kid nothing but respect, but have you ever watched him for a full game, I have yet to see him not look like hes complaining about something. For him to have a "C" on his jersey just takes away from the meaning. Youngest captian now in NHL history. Thats to bad he took that record away from one of the classiest players of all time, who posesses in my opinion, the perfect example of "heart"... Steve Yzerman. Now if you can honestly tell me that Sydney is a new version of someone like that, then I can honestly not help you bud.
It's Sidney Crosby, not Sydney Crosby. Don't come on here and tell me you are Mr. Canadian Hockey and you don't even know how to spell Sid's name. My ten year old daughter, who dances, doesn't play hockey and doesn't watch it either, knows how to spell his name. And no I don't think he's Steve Yzerman. I think someday he will be more accomplished than that. Not today, but someday.
Our training methods don't touch the methods of other countries, huh, yet you were really heavily involved in it. Okay. My apologies. I thought you were someone who was not an expert on Canadian hockey, but I guess I was wrong. All those gold medals, world championships and the best players of all time must be from Slovakia, or maybe Norway.
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 23:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Fly, I disagree with half of you assesment on what heart is. Heart is definately playing hard and caring about your team and team mates. However, the ability to raise you game to the next level has nothing to do with heart. If you looked up "Hockey Player with Heart" in the dictionary, you would see Kelly Buchburgers picture. But the guy did not have the skills to raise himself up and win a game for his team.
That being said, I still think that the point that there are fewer Russian players in the league make the good one's look worse because there are few to compare. You are dead right that for every Volchenkov or Datsuyk who work their ass off every night there is a Kovalev or a Kovalchuk who will take the odd game and/or shift off. However, for every Ryan Smyth there is a Raffi Torres. A guy who shows up once every ten games, and for the rest of the time he might as well be slinging beer in the stands.
The fact of the matter is that I think we need the Russians in the league. Not because they are Russians, but because of the style of game they play. How many Canadians (honestly) can raise a guy out if his seat every time he touches the puck like Kovalchuk?? I can think of maybe 10-15. Out of 500+ Canadians in the league?? That's pretty weak in it's self, no??
I personally love watching Kovalev/Kovalchuk type of players at their best. I can handle them taking a night off here or there because I personally don't care about the teams they are on. They bring an excitement to the game that few Canadian Players can. When I am watching a game where Edmonton is not involved, I want to be entertained. If not, I am changing the channel. Kovalchuk makes me want to watch that game. Ryan Smyth doesn't.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
I disagree with what you are saying about Canadians not bringing the same kind of excitement as Kovalchuk or Kovalev. How about Rick Nash? One of the most gifted goal scorers in the game. His injuries have set him back. Dany Heatley? Scores almost every time he touches the puck. I know he makes me jump every time he touches the puck. And I'm a damn Leaf fan. Did you catch the goal Toews scored couple weeks ago? Telling me that Canadians can't bring that excitement to the game. Come on. At least Toews knew how to celebrate when he went through those guys like it was nothing. Another thing. You are blaming Canadians for being not as exciting why? Cause they pass the puck more instead of endless rushes with the puck. Why, because they are(yes I'm going to say it) on average much better two way hockey players the Russians are? The excitement of the game DOES NOT revolve around you scoring a pretty goal and being a -3 at the end of the night. Like Ovechkin is at the end of MOST nights. And don't say that it is because he plays for the caps. Because last season he had the WORST +/- on that team.
People are taking this as attacks on the Russians. When Fly and myself have both said that there are Canadians that fit the same bill as the Russians. I am pretty sure that Fly means on average. With as many Canadians as there are in the NHL there will obviously be out layers. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 23:34:27
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
I personally like Beans’ comments.
Your hatred of Russian probably comes from the Cold War era, when everyone but the Russians hated the Russains, and deservedly so.
Gonchar has played in the NHL for 13 years, amassing 562 points as a defenseman. While they’re not Bobby Orr or Ray Bourque type numbers, they’re solid. Compare that to Bryan McCabe who’s been in the league for 11 years and has only 399 points. I’d pick the Russian in this case.
Pavel Bure ended up with 779 points in 702 games. Unfortunately he was riddled with injuries his entire Career, however he had 90+ points in every season where he played more than 70 games.
The year before the lockout saw a three-way tie for the Maurice Richard Trophy. Kovalchuk, Iginla and Nash all finished the season with 41 goals. Nash has fallen off since, while it can be argued that Kovalchuk’s stats are just as good as Iginla since. I don’t think Kovalchuk’s production fell any worse last year than Iginla’s did in 2005-2006.
You’ve claimed that most Russians are divers, and play to get penalties. I ask you to turn on the TV and watch Steve Avery play, or Darcy Tucker, both are notorious divers, and the last time I checked, they’re Canadian.
Trash talking is part of the game. I didn’t hear anyone complain when Patrick Roy made the “I’ve got my two Stanley cup rings plugging my ears” comment.
Watch any episode of Off The Record where Brian McGratton and/or Ray Emery are the guest and you’ll see disrespect from Canadian players.
North Americans play a more physical game, but with physicality comes stupidness in some cases. Bouldrice, Jones, Downie, all suspended this year for stupid hits. Bertuzzi and McSorley were both charged criminally for on-ice hits, both were Canadian. Going even further back, in game 6 of the Summit Series, Bobby Clarke deliberately slashed Valerei Kharlamov fracturing his ankle. Is this Canadian Hockey? I’d say that these incidents don’t have a place in hockey.
In closing I say this.
Let’s kick all the Russians like Gonchar out of the league, and bring in more Canadians like Wade Belak. 
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall.
Wow. Dude. We are not talking about things that happen in the heat of the game here. Naming all these suspension. Some of those suspension are very arguable. Shall I name one Kasparaitis? How many knee on knee hits has he ALONE done? Is that Russian hockey? See. This is why you shouldn't bring things like that up. That argument can go in favor and against any style of play. People get upset and do stupid things in the heat of the game and that is not because they are Canadian or Russian or Swedish. It is because they are human. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 13:01:08
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Obviously I am not trying to say that all Canadian players have heart. They don't.
But look at the icons of the game. Not the "great players", the icons. All Canadian. Why? Because we care more, in general.
I won't for a second dismiss the talents of a Pavel Bure or Illy Kovalchuk. But sincerely, who out there would take them over Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman (who are on the icon bubble), let alone over Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, etc, etc, etc.
It is my prediction that in twenty years, we will be saying, "Should Crosby have to wait the mandatory waiting period for the Hall of Fame, or should we just let him in right away?" Settle down, I know he has a way to go, but that's my prediction for him.
Then in the next breath, we'll be saying, "Remember Alex Ovechkin? Hmmm, yeah kind of. Wasn't he a great goal scorer back in the 2000's or something? Yeah, he sure was fast."
Go ahead and prove me wrong, Alex. Shock the crap out of me and be a great player for more than five years. Show heart in the fcae of defeat. Hoist the Cup. Cry a little. Take it back home and get mobbed by your friends and relatives, and thousands of adoring fans.
Or just play a couple good years, and be like Alexi Zhamnov.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 13:43:06
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Let's not forget that Russians have only been playing in the NHL for about 20 years. Not the 80ish that Canadians have.
I personally think that in 10 or 20 years when hockey people talk about the 90's, you will hear the names of Fedorov and Bure. 10 or 20 years after that you will hear names like Ovechkin and Malkin.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Obviously I am not trying to say that all Canadian players have heart. They don't.
But look at the icons of the game. Not the "great players", the icons. All Canadian. Why? Because we care more, in general.
I won't for a second dismiss the talents of a Pavel Bure or Illy Kovalchuk. But sincerely, who out there would take them over Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman (who are on the icon bubble), let alone over Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, etc, etc, etc.
It is my prediction that in twenty years, we will be saying, "Should Crosby have to wait the mandatory waiting period for the Hall of Fame, or should we just let him in right away?" Settle down, I know he has a way to go, but that's my prediction for him.
Then in the next breath, we'll be saying, "Remember Alex Ovechkin? Hmmm, yeah kind of. Wasn't he a great goal scorer back in the 2000's or something? Yeah, he sure was fast."
Go ahead and prove me wrong, Alex. Shock the crap out of me and be a great player for more than five years. Show heart in the fcae of defeat. Hoist the Cup. Cry a little. Take it back home and get mobbed by your friends and relatives, and thousands of adoring fans.
Or just play a couple good years, and be like Alexi Zhamnov.
I would take bure over steve or joe any day...if I was an owner..if I was a coach, well, I'd probably go with the others. but if I wanted to sell tickets, I'd rather have a human highlight reel than some over-the-hil vet...(obviously if we're talking joe and steve in their prime, there's more to consider)....But if hotlanta didn't have ilya or washington ovi, I guarentee there attendene would be ever worse!!!!
As for this whole bickering over the spelling of crosby's first name...if we all agreed to refer to him as the bitch, we wouldn't have this problem.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Obviously I am not trying to say that all Canadian players have heart. They don't.
But look at the icons of the game. Not the "great players", the icons. All Canadian. Why? Because we care more, in general.
I won't for a second dismiss the talents of a Pavel Bure or Illy Kovalchuk. But sincerely, who out there would take them over Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman (who are on the icon bubble), let alone over Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, etc, etc, etc.
It is my prediction that in twenty years, we will be saying, "Should Crosby have to wait the mandatory waiting period for the Hall of Fame, or should we just let him in right away?" Settle down, I know he has a way to go, but that's my prediction for him.
Then in the next breath, we'll be saying, "Remember Alex Ovechkin? Hmmm, yeah kind of. Wasn't he a great goal scorer back in the 2000's or something? Yeah, he sure was fast."
Go ahead and prove me wrong, Alex. Shock the crap out of me and be a great player for more than five years. Show heart in the fcae of defeat. Hoist the Cup. Cry a little. Take it back home and get mobbed by your friends and relatives, and thousands of adoring fans.
Or just play a couple good years, and be like Alexi Zhamnov.
I would take bure over steve or joe any day...if I was an owner..if I was a coach, well, I'd probably go with the others. but if I wanted to sell tickets, I'd rather have a human highlight reel than some over-the-hil vet...(obviously if we're talking joe and steve in their prime, there's more to consider)....But if hotlanta didn't have ilya or washington ovi, I guarentee there attendene would be ever worse!!!!
As for this whole bickering over the spelling of crosby's first name...if we all agreed to refer to him as the bitch, we wouldn't have this problem.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
We are looking at this from different perspectives, obviously. I am a fan of the sport, while you enjoy highlight reels. Go buy a DVD of "Hockey's Greatest Goals". That stupid Stanley Cup just gets in the way of the good stuff.
I actually played hockey with a guy like you once. He thought hitting the crossbar was better than scoring a goal, because when he hit the crossbar, the crowd would always go "Wooooooooo!!!" Needless to say, he wasn't exactly team captain material.
I'm guessing neither were you.
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:47:14
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Hahahaha,FlyforaPuckguy, well...Back in my hockey days, I was a goalie, so, like most goalies, I was kind of on my own with respect to the rest of the team..Ya I liked to win and all... obviously growing up, I had dreams of being a pro hockey player, and I really cared more about how I played then how my team played (obviously, a goalie can say he played well, even if his team lost) Since in minor hockey/jr. Hockey you're trying to make a name for YOURSELF!....So I fully concede to your point about me preferring highlight reel saves/goals and whatnot..But don't make it out like I'm a terrible hockey fan b/c of that..I just like a different part of the game....
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 11/09/2007 16:48:05 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 10:20:19
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I think bringing up Bure is interesting. The guy really was an amazing hockey player that had his career shortened by injuries. I think if he would have been healthy and still playing, the arguement of Bure or Sakic would be a lot more interesting.
Bure was sick. Not only is he more than a PPG guy in the regular season, but he's also a PPG guy in the playoffs. He was stupid exciting, and I don't recall the guy taking too many nights off. He played to win and did it with flair.
As a coach or an owner, if you have an option between a PPG guy with flair and a quite PPG guy, that's a tough decision.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 15:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think bringing up Bure is interesting. The guy really was an amazing hockey player that had his career shortened by injuries. I think if he would have been healthy and still playing, the arguement of Bure or Sakic would be a lot more interesting.
Bure was sick. Not only is he more than a PPG guy in the regular season, but he's also a PPG guy in the playoffs. He was stupid exciting, and I don't recall the guy taking too many nights off. He played to win and did it with flair.
As a coach or an owner, if you have an option between a PPG guy with flair and a quite PPG guy, that's a tough decision.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
I won't argue too much about Bure. He only became inconsistent in his last few years, not that he played a whole pile.
He was also incredibly dynamic, like Ovechkin today. I would probably pick him as my favourite Russian ever.
With that said, the guy had a career total of 779 points, and well over half were goals. I'm not sure that puts him anywhere near a Joe Sakic, who has scored more than twice that may ypoints and has 2 Stanley Cups, as well as Olympic Gold Medals and Conn Smyth trophies, etc.
This is the crux of what I am trying to say with my argument. Bure is a typical Russian, who looks terrific for a short period of time, but then vanishes as quickly as he arrived.
For a few seasons maybe he lights it up, looks flashy, does the hand gestures after the goal, points at his opponents, does the gunslinger thing, whatever Russians always do. Then what? Gone. No legacies.
If you polled all 30 GMs in the NHL, do you think a single one would draft a Bure over a Sakic, knowing ahead of time what each would accomplish throughout their careers? Not a chance in H-E-double hockey sticks would even one of them.
That's what I'm saying...GMs, save your picks, because it'll happen to every Russian eventually. Well, not every one, but to the flashy, scoring ones it does. Tick tock, Kovalchuk...let's see where you are four years from now...you too, Ovechkin...Malkin... |
Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/10/2007 16:02:39 |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 15:53:45
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Fly, i agree with what you mentioned about Afinegenov earlier. He's is pretty stupid. He has some hockey smarts, but doesn't everybody in the NHL? wonder if he has a future anywhere else than mcdonalds when hes' older...
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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Guest9849
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Posted - 11/10/2007 : 19:06:16
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| when you handle the puck like ovechkin come back k. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 20:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9849
when you handle the puck like ovechkin come back k.
WOW!!! What an enlightening repsonse - thanks! I feel like a blind man given 20/20 vision! My opinion on Russians has changed now. Unreal. All those years disliking some Russian players, but now I get it...I can't handle the puck as well as Ovechkin!!!!
Man, all those wasted arguments I've had. I need to start apologizing for my ridiculous idea that I somehow handled the puck better than Ovechkin by saying some Russians suck. You're a lifesaver, dude. You must be, like, a genius or something.
BTW, when you lose the guest title and get a profile, you come back...k?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 07:35:06
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I don't get it Fly, Bure didn't get inconsistant at the end. He was injured. Besides that, out his last 5 seasons, only his last (39 games) where he didn't average a PPG. And he had seasons of 58 and 59 games in his last 5 years.
I think it's one of those leave VAN and hit the black hole of FLA. Bure was Dangerous until his last shift.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 09:46:14
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| Bure did not retire because of injuries. There was another reason he retired. I thought maybe people knew this - maybe it's not common knowledge. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 11:42:34
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Fly, would you care to elaborate on that one...
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
Edited by - Greg Smith on 11/11/2007 11:42:48 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 19:55:20
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I knew Bure had mob ties but those articles were ridiculas. So the mob has now Ovechkin in to infiltrate America's capital? they forced the NHL to let washington draft him and it has nothing to do with the fact that he is an amazing hockey player? You try playing hockey each and everynight with a bum knee. Give your head a shake and except that while russians may not have the heart of canadians but they have the skill. This will be my last post on this topic I dont promote prejudice people
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 21:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I knew Bure had mob ties but those articles were ridiculas. So the mob has now Ovechkin in to infiltrate America's capital? they forced the NHL to let washington draft him and it has nothing to do with the fact that he is an amazing hockey player? You try playing hockey each and everynight with a bum knee. Give your head a shake and except that while russians may not have the heart of canadians but they have the skill. This will be my last post on this topic I dont promote prejudice people
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Prejudice - An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
Opinion - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert.
Calling another person prejudiced is a pretty low blow. I think you need to read the rest of my posts before you post slanderous statements. By the way, I didn't write the articles, I just posted the links. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 22:01:07
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Fantastic articles! Thanks Fly, I had not heard any of that before.
Definitely food for thought. It's a possible explanation for some Russian player's performances I suppose.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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Oil
Top Prospect
28 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 11:50:30
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| Russians only care about making money. To them the stanley cup just means more money and fame. |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 11:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Oil
Russians only care about making money. To them the stanley cup just means more money and fame.
Please tell me you are kidding! This is absolutely ridiculous! Have you ever seen Ovechkin after he scores? Ya, i have to agree with you, the look on his face is COMPLETELY just "yes, i scored now i will get even more famous and i get more money". Ovechkin has more fun playing hockey than anyone in the league. Good grief. there are a lot of Russian players that bring a lot more to this game than Canadian players.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 08:00:29
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mytor - I'm not sure what happened to Flyguy as he has been missing from the site for a while. Hope he is okay. Anyway, this is a bit of a tricky topic. I certainly have had my battles on other fronts with Flyguy before (you could say things reached "insane" levels ), but I think Flyguy getting attacked on this thread for being "prejudiced" is unfortunate. I think it's quite possible to raise a topic like this without being "prejudiced".
He made a generalization, and I certainly believe that generalizations can be quite dangerous, BUT, they also sometimes can be the basis for an interesting discussion about a matter (though you always need to remember their inherent weakness).
There are some differences, but people attacking Flyguy here reminds me a bit of people attacking Obama now because he is raising some common attitudes that a lot of whites have towards blacks. I better stop there, as this should stay about hockey and that comment has nothing but EXPLOSIVENESS all around it.
Anyway, to me, Flyguy, agree or disagree with him, can not be said to be "prejudiced" based on bringing up the topic of this thread. |
Edited by - andyhack on 03/29/2008 08:01:51 |
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mytor4
Rookie
Canada
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 08:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
mytor - I'm not sure what happened to Flyguy as he has been missing from the site for a while. Hope he is okay. Anyway, this is a bit of a tricky topic. I certainly have had my battles on other fronts with Flyguy before (you could say things reached "insane" levels), but I think Flyguy getting attacked on this thread for being "prejudiced" is unfortunate. I think it's quite possible to raise a topic like this without being "prejudiced".
He made a generalization, and I certainly believe that generalizations can be quite dangerous, BUT, they also sometimes can be the basis for an interesting discussion about a matter (though you always need to remember their inherent weakness).
There are some differences, but people attacking Flyguy here reminds me a bit of people attacking Obama now because he is raising some common attitudes that a lot of whites have towards blacks. I better stop there, as this should stay about hockey and that comment has nothing but EXPLOSIVENESS all around it.
Anyway, to me, Flyguy, agree or disagree with him, can not be said to be "prejudiced" based on bringing up the topic of this thread.
Ok i see where where your comming from so i'll cannge my post to reflect more his bias against russians. Fair enough.
Most of the original post was showing him with such a population some reasons why they don't produce as many hockey players as the North Americans do
2nd I.D DManPreds11 |
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mytor4
Rookie
Canada
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 08:50:03
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Obviously I am not trying to say that all Canadian players have heart. They don't.
But look at the icons of the game. Not the "great players", the icons. All Canadian. Why? Because we care more, in general.
I won't for a second dismiss the talents of a Pavel Bure or Illy Kovalchuk. But sincerely, who out there would take them over Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman (who are on the icon bubble), let alone over Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, etc, etc, etc.
It is my prediction that in twenty years, we will be saying, "Should Crosby have to wait the mandatory waiting period for the Hall of Fame, or should we just let him in right away?" Settle down, I know he has a way to go, but that's my prediction for him.
Then in the next breath, we'll be saying, "Remember Alex Ovechkin? Hmmm, yeah kind of. Wasn't he a great goal scorer back in the 2000's or something? Yeah, he sure was fast."
Go ahead and prove me wrong, Alex. Shock the crap out of me and be a great player for more than five years. Show heart in the fcae of defeat. Hoist the Cup. Cry a little. Take it back home and get mobbed by your friends and relatives, and thousands of adoring fans.
Or just play a couple good years, and be like Alexi Zhamnov.
I would take bure over steve or joe any day...if I was an owner..if I was a coach, well, I'd probably go with the others. but if I wanted to sell tickets, I'd rather have a human highlight reel than some over-the-hil vet...(obviously if we're talking joe and steve in their prime, there's more to consider)....But if hotlanta didn't have ilya or washington ovi, I guarentee there attendene would be ever worse!!!!
As for this whole bickering over the spelling of crosby's first name...if we all agreed to refer to him as the bitch, we wouldn't have this problem.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
We are looking at this from different perspectives, obviously. I am a fan of the sport, while you enjoy highlight reels. Go buy a DVD of "Hockey's Greatest Goals". That stupid Stanley Cup just gets in the way of the good stuff.
I actually played hockey with a guy like you once. He thought hitting the crossbar was better than scoring a goal, because when he hit the crossbar, the crowd would always go "Wooooooooo!!!" Needless to say, he wasn't exactly team captain material.
I'm guessing neither were you.
By hearing you talk i've also played with guys like you. The kind that had a dislike for people just because they had the talant to sparkle and shine on the ice where you only had grit with limited ability and always had limited ice time. while some guys showed off there talant hitting the goal post during practises , you couldn't find the open net. i now understand where your comming from.
2nd I.D DManPreds11 |
Edited by - mytor4 on 03/29/2008 08:50:50 |
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mytor4
Rookie
Canada
134 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 09:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9849
when you handle the puck like ovechkin come back k.
WOW!!! What an enlightening repsonse - thanks! I feel like a blind man given 20/20 vision! My opinion on Russians has changed now. Unreal. All those years disliking some Russian players, but now I get it...I can't handle the puck as well as Ovechkin!!!!
Man, all those wasted arguments I've had. I need to start apologizing for my ridiculous idea that I somehow handled the puck better than Ovechkin by saying some Russians suck. You're a lifesaver, dude. You must be, like, a genius or something.
BTW, when you lose the guest title and get a profile, you come back...k?
my question to you is where will you be when O.V win multiply awards over his career . i can hear the excuses comming from you already.
or when kovelchuk has a few more Richards trophy,s under his belt, or when a russian captians a stanley cup winner. these will all happen eventually. just look at your standings today, top 5 pt leaders, top 5 goal leaders, norris possibiltys, hart possibiltys,art ross possibilitys,vezina possibilitys wow no russians , look again russians in every catagory i mentioned.
2nd I.D DManPreds11 |
Edited by - mytor4 on 03/29/2008 09:01:48 |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 10:11:02
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| this is ridiculous lol ... id take the skillful player no matter if he was from the amazon ... it really does not matter what country .. everyone has their sooks and complainers and soft players |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 07:38:21
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Well everyone are entitled to have their own opinion. But I don´t get what the big deal is. Multi-nationality in many european sports are not anything anyone thinks about, take football (soccer) for example: players from all over the world, even north america and no one complains about it. Many big european football clubs got more non native players than domestic ones.
And for this Canadians have smaller population with more players in The NHL and are therefore better hockey players is, well a bit ignorant. If you make a comparison between the number of indoor rinks in Canada and Russia you´ll see things a bit clearer. Btw many great hockey players choose not to play in the NHL for various reasons; family, different culture, not as good pay as in the Russian league in some cases etc.
It could be that hockey and maybe basket are the only two north american sports anyone outside of said continent gives a s--t about. And thereby north americans are not used to have players from different countries playing together. Baseball and the word "worldseries" in the same sentence always make me laugh.
The Cold War and the Canada, Russia/Sovietunion hockey rivalry could be another explanation. The media is always a big factor too.
You can guess by now that I don´t share your dislike for russian hockey players and i don´t think they are playing dirtier than anyone else. Personally I prefer watching fast puck-control hockey with some big, clean hits but that´s just me. Other people in Sweden favors the Canadian style of hockey and the majority of the players in the Elite League wants to allow fighting.
If any nationality stands out for playing dirty it would be Canada imo. Bobby Clarke and co playing by their own rules and slashing all-time great Kharlamov or Rob Niedermayer on Forsberg are just a few examples.
More recently in the WC 2008 when the entire Russian team was forced to walk the last bit to the arena where the final was played of "security measures" (in reality an attempt to psyche the russian team, no security measures was needed when team Canada arrived) is an example of unsportsmanlike conduct or classless behaviour, or do you disagree?
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Guest2633
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Posted - 06/02/2008 : 07:58:25
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Your point is a good one. Russians don't seem to have heart and they don't seem to "get" team play.
But don't stereotype them all. So many of them are great team players with heart. Others have mentioned Volchenkov and Zubov. Zubov is got to be the most underrated defenseman in the league. Over the past ten years, probably only Lidstrom is better, or possibly Niedermayer. (Pronger is in the same conversation too.) And Datsyuk. Even though he isn't scoring, he is hitting, and playing well. For a little guy to be hitting like that - that is awesome and the kind of heart you're talking about.
It is always dangerous to stereotype by nationality. You need to see where they played hockey growing up, and in college or junior, and who their coach is now. Russians seem to be the most selfish undisciplined players, but there are plenty of exceptions. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 18:36:55
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sergei federov is one of the most constant reliable defensivly responsible the list goes on,, could bethe most complete player the nhl has ever seen he's won a selke and heart he is from where???? RUSSIA cant put all the eggs in the same basket kids!!
Pasty |
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LuonGod
Top Prospect
Canada
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2008 : 00:19:27
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Im Canandian and will always be Canadian but talent is talent. I used to only like Canadian players until I started going to NHL games and was able to see what some of these European players bring to the game. I do however, agree that the tough mentality and go all out attitude seems to be strictly North Amercian. I do agree that crying and pouting seems to come from set players. Hockey is TEAM and sometimes you wonder what is taught to young players in different countries. Its tough to make an arguement based soley on one country, but I will always support the Canadian boyz who go out and bleed!
Never ever cut what can be untied!!!! |
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Why I Dislike Russian Hockey Players 
