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PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2008 : 13:12:31
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| I can see alot of points here from both sides of the argument. The only thing that would keep me from takeing a Russian or Euro over a Canadian with equal talent is the fact that the Canadian wants the Cup more 99% of the time. Most Russian and Euro players would probably rather win the Olympics then the Cup. Thats what i think seperates North American hockey players from the rest of players around the world. If you want to see a Russian play with heart watch the 2010 Olympics. I promise you not one player will take a shift off. And dont get me wrong any Canadian would love to win a Olympic Gold as well but its not as special as the Cup imo.. |
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your mumma make me *****
Top Prospect
15 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2008 : 20:17:10
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| All russian players snipe and are shooters i dont know any russian goons or really physical guys. But i do know that a lot of russian players can dish it out when they want. honestly polish players are so well rounded like czerkawski you couldnt stop him and oliwa untouchable. |
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Guest6740
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Posted - 10/16/2008 : 09:33:20
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| kovalchuk sticks up for himself and fights sometimes |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 10:16:55
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| Just wanted to add that among most swedish players the Cup is regarded as highly as an Olympic gold... maybe a bit more due to the long time you have to fight for even a chance of winning it. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2008 : 11:46:41
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Question: If you do not like Russian hockey players because you "do not respect russian hockey", how do you feel about Russian hockey players who were brought up mostly within the north american system?
Disagree with you on most points, as Russians have as much a "code" as any other north american, and especially Canadian. A very good case can easily be made for the assertion that Canadian hockey is the dirtiest hockey, actually - look at the major suspensions, intent to injure, stick infractions, etc. Most (if not all) of the leaders are Canadian.
And yes, pre-judging players based on ethnicity or nationality is EXACTLY what the definition of predjudiced is. It's a dirtier word than it should be in our very PC world, as all of us pre judge things to some extent - but it is clear to me that you are prejudiced against Russian hockey players. You stated as much very clearly here.
Spider Jones' Top Ten Dirtiest Players:
http://www.spiderjones.com/pdfs/sa_nhl_dirtiest.pdf
1. Bobby Clarke - CANADIAN
2. Ted Lindsay - CANADIAN
3. Ulf Samuelsson - SWEDISH
4. Mark Messier - CANADIAN
5. Dale Hunter - CANADIAN
6. Ken Linesman - CANADIAN
7. Dave Schultz - CANADIAN
8. Gordie Howe - CANADIAN
9. Wayne Cashman - CANADIAN
10. Claude LEmieux - CANADIAN
Visit the link, ther're good explanations and stories for all the picks.
Guys who I would have put on there as well? Gary Suter, Marty McSorely, Wayne Maki. All CANADIAN.
Doing a quick googling for current players, asking "who are the dirtiest nhl hockey players playing today", I come up with these names time and time again:
Chris Simon - CANADIAN
Todd Bertuzzi - CANADIAN
Chris Pronger - CANADIAN
Sean Avery - CANADIAN
Steve Downey - CANADIAN
Chris Chelios - AMERICAN
George Parros - AMERICAN
Watching the last few Leafs games, I would have to add Ryan Hollweg (AMERICAN) to that list.
'nuff said.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest6252
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Posted - 11/27/2008 : 18:13:28
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i like russian players maybe its cause Joseph Stalian was from russis
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Guest6252
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Posted - 11/27/2008 : 18:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Question: If you do not like Russian hockey players because you "do not respect russian hockey", how do you feel about Russian hockey players who were brought up mostly within the north american system?
Disagree with you on most points, as Russians have as much a "code" as any other north american, and especially Canadian. A very good case can easily be made for the assertion that Canadian hockey is the dirtiest hockey, actually - look at the major suspensions, intent to injure, stick infractions, etc. Most (if not all) of the leaders are Canadian.
And yes, pre-judging players based on ethnicity or nationality is EXACTLY what the definition of predjudiced is. It's a dirtier word than it should be in our very PC world, as all of us pre judge things to some extent - but it is clear to me that you are prejudiced against Russian hockey players. You stated as much very clearly here.
Spider Jones' Top Ten Dirtiest Players:
http://www.spiderjones.com/pdfs/sa_nhl_dirtiest.pdf
1. Bobby Clarke - CANADIAN
2. Ted Lindsay - CANADIAN
3. Ulf Samuelsson - SWEDISH
4. Mark Messier - CANADIAN
5. Dale Hunter - CANADIAN
6. Ken Linesman - CANADIAN
7. Dave Schultz - CANADIAN
8. Gordie Howe - CANADIAN
9. Wayne Cashman - CANADIAN
10. Claude LEmieux - CANADIAN
Visit the link, ther're good explanations and stories for all the picks.
Guys who I would have put on there as well? Gary Suter, Marty McSorely, Wayne Maki. All CANADIAN.
Doing a quick googling for current players, asking "who are the dirtiest nhl hockey players playing today", I come up with these names time and time again:
Chris Simon - CANADIAN
Todd Bertuzzi - CANADIAN
Chris Pronger - CANADIAN
Sean Avery - CANADIAN
Steve Downey - CANADIAN
Chris Chelios - AMERICAN
George Parros - AMERICAN
Watching the last few Leafs games, I would have to add Ryan Hollweg (AMERICAN) to that list.
'nuff said.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
LOL u are totally right man americains and canadians are dirty but we play in more leagues whl ahl nhl national ect.. and the germans do to...............
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Guest6497
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Posted - 11/27/2008 : 19:17:10
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ok enough about championships beans get stats for world champions i agree russia and canada have a differnet way of playing hockey but canada and russia are one two or 4th or 6th and believe it or not sometimes we are two. And who cares sydney or sidney it is not a spelling contestand if he 's reading im sure he wont be that ofended as he probably been called worse by don cherry. Yes canadians do better in the nhl and winning the cup maybe smaller ice surface and the fact it is ingrained in us at early age who hasnt played for the cup in their minds while there desire is to be the best.How do cdns fare in the russian league u go to russia a differnt culture lang diff food and you play it is not easy i say any russian that comes and plays in the nhl thousands mile form his support network family friends etc has a love for hockey otherwise you sign a contract and go back home after a year. the nhl would be a wasteland with 30 teams and all cdns it is watered down now. ps stereotypes are racism not all swedes are chicken not all russians dive not all frenchmen wear visors and not all canadians have heart. Ibeleive the majority does. draper come on diver cheap shot artist he hooks and holds the other teams best player he is very good at it. I agree russians do shy away for the most part from body contact as they are not taught that as an early age as cdns but malkin ovechkin evevn daysuk do use body Borchesky (aplogiize for spelling nikkil i have live cant look up your namedont care)had more hrt than most 140lbs you play in nhl being that small he ruptured his spleen getting hit isnt that hrt.
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Guest0543
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Posted - 11/28/2008 : 17:12:22
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quote:
Kovalchuk is every bit as talented as Crosby, but he'll never challenge for a scoring title
Right...............
and the fact that he has already won it?
The fact he is on a team that has about as much talent as Crosby's finger?
If Kovalchuk was traded to Toronto, the leafs would be cup contenders. And if that happened Atlanta would become a Minor league team. He is the only player on that team (minus perhaps little and Kari) that is worth more than 10 goals and maybe thirty points.
You should probably watch hockey before you comment on the game |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 11/29/2008 : 21:40:27
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| Is Crosby better than Ovechkin or Malkin? Possibly. How many Crosby's are there out there? Not too many. And a team needs 4 forward lines and 3 defensive pairings, and there are 30 teams in the league. That's 540 players (360 forwards) not counting injured reserves etc. There aren't 360 Crosby's out there. So having said that, if your a GM and there is an Ovechkin or Malkin out there are you going to turn him down in favour of an average Canadian player? No chance in hell!! And if you did you would probably be out of a job soon after. |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 11/29/2008 : 23:28:29
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How many Russians played in the NHL during the 2007/2008 season? 28. How many of those were forwards? 18. [Note: One of those 18 was a rookie (Ilja Zubov) who played only one game and another (Alexander Nikulin) only played 2 games all season.] How many averaged over a point a game? 5. (Ovechkin - 112, Malkin - 106, Datsyuk - 97, Kovalchuk - 87, and Kovalev - 84) Who finished in 1st and 2nd in points in the league? Ovechkin and Malkin. While the other 3 mentioned finished 4th, 10th and 11th respectively. Not a bad representation of the 18 Russian forewards in the league considering the league is comprised of 566 forwards in total. How many Canadian forwards played in the NHL during the 2007/2008 season? 312. Top 5 Canadian finishers in points... Iginla - 98 (3rd), Thornton - 96 (5th), Spezza - 92 (7th), Lecavalier - 92 (8th), Ribiero - 83 (13th). Still good, but out of 312 Canadian forwards, compared to 18 Russian forwards. I rest my case.
NOTE: I am a proud Canadian hockey fan and support all of our Canadian players. However, that does not mean that I disrespect players from other countries. The best in the WORLD play in the NHL, not just the best in North America or Canada. |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 11/30/2008 : 00:05:57
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| In addition to my previous post. I forgot to include the 2 Russian goaltenders that played in the NHL during the 2007/2008 season... Ilja Bryzgalov (2.44 GAA and .920 Sv%) and Nikolai Khabibulin (2.63 GAA and .909 Sv%). Not bad. 45 Canadian goaltenders played in the NHL during the 2007/2008 season, 22 of which played over 29 games. Of those 22 the lowest GAA was 2.09 (Chris Osgood) and the highest GAA was 3.13 (Ray Emery), while the highest Sv% was .924 (Dan Ellis) and the lowest Sv% was .890 (Ray Emery). The average GAA for all 22 Canadian goaltenders was 2.57 while the average Sv% was .911. The average GAA for the 2 Russian goaltenders was 2.535 while the average Sv% was .9145. Therefore the average Russian NHL goaltender had both a better GAA and Sv% than the average Canadian goaltender during the 2007/2008 season. |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 11/30/2008 : 20:57:53
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| I can't believe there was actually a topic that existed such as this one. {ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED} Russians have just as much heart as a player of any nationality. Your arguments as to why they are lazy are goalless streaks and underperforming in the season? what about in the world championship this year when Canada was beating them by one goal late in the third, then kovalchuk proceeded to score one highlight reel goal to tie the game, then another in OT to win it? I've played hockey for over ten years at many different levels of competition, and that is the definition of heart. Mats Sundin has never played as well in the regular season or playoffs as he has for Sweden in the Olympics or World Championships. That is the definition of heart, performing for your country when it matters most. |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 11/30/2008 : 21:07:26
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(ADMIN EDIT CONTENT REMOVED)
Racism : the belief that a specific race has certain qualities or abilities, giving rise to the belief that certain races are better than others. (Oxford Dictionary 2001)
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS TO MEMBERS OR OTHER GUESTS) |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 12/01/2008 : 10:39:32
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| If a real comparison is to be made between all Canadian players in the NHL and all Russian players in the NHL, in terms of both offense and defense, then you have to look at plus/minus statistics. Based on stats taken from NHL.com, in the 2007/2008 regular season the 28 Russian players that played during the season averaged a plus/minus of 2.642857 while the 445 Canadian players that played during the season averaged -1.11011. The numbers speak for themselves. |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 12/01/2008 : 11:02:21
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| By the way, I forgot to mention that in 2007/2008 Pavel Datsyuk led the league in plus/minus rating with at rating of +41, while Alexander Ovechkin and Viktor Kozlov tied for 7th in the league with a rating of +28. Kovalev was 30th in the league with a rating of +18. Malkin was 38th with a rating of +16, Volchenkov was 48th with a rating of +14 and Gonchar was 53rd with a rating of +13. And again I stress that there are only 28 Russian players in the league out of a total of 852 players in the league during the 2007/2008 regular season. A great showing by the Russians. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 11:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4415
If a real comparison is to be made between all Canadian players in the NHL and all Russian players in the NHL, in terms of both offense and defense, then you have to look at plus/minus statistics. Based on stats taken from NHL.com, in the 2007/2008 regular season the 28 Russian players that played during the season averaged a plus/minus of 2.642857 while the 445 Canadian players that played during the season averaged -1.11011. The numbers speak for themselves.
The numbers do not speak for themselves because you are not comparing apples to apples. Averages are not a fair comparison when one sample is 28 players and the other is over 400.
Besides that, +/- is a garbage stat to compare unless you are comparing players on the same team. It's unfair to compare a player like Datsyuk on a defensively stacked Detroit to a Vinny Lecavalier on a defensively weak Tampa squad.
The only real use for +/- in my opinion is to compare players on the same team or to appreciate a player who is + when most of his team mates are - and vise versa.
The +/- stat is a horrible measure on a player defensive ability. For example, you can't honestly say that Wayne Gretzky (+518) was a better defensive player than Guy Carbanneau (+186).
+/- is useless, and even more so when using an average of 28 players against 445 players. The stats are not saying anything in this case. |
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Guest8922
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Posted - 12/01/2008 : 12:27:07
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If the administrators are going to edit people's comments for "personal attacks against posters" then this whole topic should never have existed, as it is an attack on every hockey player of Russian descent. Calling all Russians lazy is no different than making racist remarks about black, Asian or Spanish people.
(THE ADMINISTRATOR'S FAMILY IS OF RUSSIAN DESCENT and ultimately believes that conversation is the best way to dispell myths. If we can speak openly and not hide in fear, then we can solve problems. But we will not stand for PERSONAL attacks in our forums. |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 12/02/2008 : 10:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4415
If a real comparison is to be made between all Canadian players in the NHL and all Russian players in the NHL, in terms of both offense and defense, then you have to look at plus/minus statistics. Based on stats taken from NHL.com, in the 2007/2008 regular season the 28 Russian players that played during the season averaged a plus/minus of 2.642857 while the 445 Canadian players that played during the season averaged -1.11011. The numbers speak for themselves.
The numbers do not speak for themselves because you are not comparing apples to apples. Averages are not a fair comparison when one sample is 28 players and the other is over 400.
Besides that, +/- is a garbage stat to compare unless you are comparing players on the same team. It's unfair to compare a player like Datsyuk on a defensively stacked Detroit to a Vinny Lecavalier on a defensively weak Tampa squad.
The only real use for +/- in my opinion is to compare players on the same team or to appreciate a player who is + when most of his team mates are - and vise versa.
The +/- stat is a horrible measure on a player defensive ability. For example, you can't honestly say that Wayne Gretzky (+518) was a better defensive player than Guy Carbanneau (+186).
+/- is useless, and even more so when using an average of 28 players against 445 players. The stats are not saying anything in this case.
There is some truth to this argument as for as averages go, however my following post shows how some of those Russians stack up in a ranking with resdpect to the entire league, regardless of team. Therefore, this data is not totally useless. Also, the main point of this data is to counter the argument that all Russians are lazy and selfish. The plus/minus statistic allows us to incorporate a players defensive ability into our comparison as opposed to just offensive numbers. And defense is arguably more important in determining the selflessness and workethic of a player, or group of players in this case. |
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Guest4415
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Posted - 12/02/2008 : 10:32:13
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| If team comparisons are neccessary then in 2007/2008: Datsyuk led the Red Wings in +/-, Ovechkin and Kozlov (Viktor) led the Capitals in +/-, Kovalev led the Canadians in +/-, and Malkin was second on the Penguins (next to Crosby). Again this is a representation of the 28 Russians in a league of over 600 players. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 12:30:58
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Okay. Why is it that people always have to take everything so seriously? Fly brought up a topic, which is his own opinion, based on years of watching the game. I believe that it wasn't the intention of anyone to bring up racism.
I myself am a Canadian, originally born in Europe, who has watched and played the game for 15 years now. I have played hockey in Canada, Russia, Sweden, and the U.S.A. So, with that said, anything I say is not intended to offend anyone. It is merely what I have drawn through my experiences. People have to honestly stop taking things so personally.
I am not a big fan of Russian hockey. FROM EXPERIENCE, I can say that Russian hockey is MUCH different from what we are used to here in Canada or the United States. Hockey schools in Russia, typically, focus on skating, skill, and well more skating. Hockey schools in North America, typically, focus on passing, physical play, and positioning. THIS DOES NOT mean that Russians in the NHL do not know how to pass or hit or play their positions. As well this also does not mean that there are no fast, skilled North Americans in the NHL. All this means is that the mentality of the game is different in each respective place. If people can understand this, than they can effectively argue about Kovalchuk being lazy or whatever.
I argue that the Canadian game of hockey is more effective then the Russian one. I believe that passing and positioning are the two most important aspects of the game. Now, because of this, and because I watch the NHL on a regular basis(NHL Center Ice baby!), I believe that, TYPICALLY, regardless of statistics or numbers, North American hockey players are more in tune with those aspects of the game. That of course does not mean that there are no Russian players that aren't in tune with passing and positioning. And again, this OPINION, is from WATCHING the game and players.
So, I conclude that I prefer North American players over Russians. Which I guess can be interpreted as "racism" or that I don't like Russian hockey players by some people who do not understand what I am trying to say.
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Edited by - ED11 on 12/03/2008 12:34:31 |
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Guest0603
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Posted - 12/03/2008 : 13:46:01
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| malkin is a frigen russian slu footer and i defanitley don't like him but i have respect for most Russian players |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 05:41:10
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Comparing a person to a certain german dictator like some guest did because the person dislike russian hockey and/or russians is a bit over the top imo.
The problem russian national teams has had the last couple of years (this year excluded) does not depend on that russian hockey players are that more invidualistic than players from other countries but that they have been severly undercoached for many years.
I´ve seen games when russian coaches takes a time out, tells the players that they doesn´t get it and it´s all their fault then walks out on them and leaves them to fend for themselves. Not easy to start playing like a team after something like that. This problem seems to be solved with the newest russian national team coach so get used to strong russian teams in the future.
ED11 I respect your opinion and the fact that you have played hockey in many countries. But I can´t agree that there is less passing and positioning in the KHL, I would argue that it is the other way around. Hockey in the NHL on small ice is more straight forward and physical and that russian hockey traditionally with it´s larger surface is much more complex with different systems and passing. The difference is no longer imho as big as it used to be as russians and canadians have learned from each other. Russian hockey is much more physical today than 30 years ago and canadian hockey has become a bit more about speed and skill than it used to be.
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 10:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Comparing a person to a certain german dictator like some guest did because the person dislike russian hockey and/or russians is a bit over the top imo.
The problem russian national teams has had the last couple of years (this year excluded) does not depend on that russian hockey players are that more invidualistic than players from other countries but that they have been severly undercoached for many years.
I´ve seen games when russian coaches takes a time out, tells the players that they doesn´t get it and it´s all their fault then walks out on them and leaves them to fend for themselves. Not easy to start playing like a team after something like that. This problem seems to be solved with the newest russian national team coach so get used to strong russian teams in the future.
ED11 I respect your opinion and the fact that you have played hockey in many countries. But I can´t agree that there is less passing and positioning in the KHL, I would argue that it is the other way around. Hockey in the NHL on small ice is more straight forward and physical and that russian hockey traditionally with it´s larger surface is much more complex with different systems and passing. The difference is no longer imho as big as it used to be as russians and canadians have learned from each other. Russian hockey is much more physical today than 30 years ago and canadian hockey has become a bit more about speed and skill than it used to be.
I'm also Canadian, you bring up a great point when you say that the two places have learned much from each other. I do agree that KHL has a lot of passing and great positioning. One can argue though, that many NHL'ers have been going over there because of the huge contracts that they pay out. This alone MIGHT be changing the way the game is being played over there. Also, this topic is about Russian players in the NHL. Or at least that's the way I have been looking at it. But you do bring up some good points. And look! We managed to have a somewhat enlightening conversation and no one was offended! Haha. |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 00:19:51
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Sean Avery....I rest my case
But seriously I can think of agitators or real pests from most hockey countries but when it comes to russia my mind goes blank. Either it´s me who doesn´t remember or the russians doesn´t really have that playertype. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 13:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Sean Avery....I rest my case
But seriously I can think of agitators or real pests from most hockey countries but when it comes to russia my mind goes blank. Either it´s me who doesn´t remember or the russians doesn´t really have that playertype.
If you are talking about player types like Avery, who just run their mouths, than yeah maybe Russia is clean on that end. But what about Kasparaitis is an INFOMUS knee on knee hitter. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 15:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Sean Avery....I rest my case
But seriously I can think of agitators or real pests from most hockey countries but when it comes to russia my mind goes blank. Either it´s me who doesn´t remember or the russians doesn´t really have that playertype.
If you are talking about player types like Avery, who just run their mouths, than yeah maybe Russia is clean on that end. But what about Kasparaitis is an INFOMUS knee on knee hitter.
Ed11 you beat me to it, I was just about to say Darius Kasparaitis. He was a very dirty player and apparently ran his mouth a lot (not in the media though) But to be fair I wouldn't put him in the same group as Avery. The closest I can think of in recent years was Matthew Barnaby - But Barnaby mostly kept it on the ice. Sorry a little off topic here.
Kaparaitis was actually a very aggressive hitter and played more of a North American style. |
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Topic |
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Why I Dislike Russian Hockey Players 
