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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie



165 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  12:42:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cool. I'll take the extra goals/points and hits I get with #8. If you don't think Ovechkin wants to win just as badly as Crosby you are insane. Doesn't hurt that he is by far the most exciting player to watch live either. Pretty much only because he's Russian and not Canadian or American that he's not universally heralded as the best player in the game today (and yes, that's my opinion).
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  12:53:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Cool. I'll take the extra goals/points and hits I get with #8. If you don't think Ovechkin wants to win just as badly as Crosby you are insane. Doesn't hurt that he is by far the most exciting player to watch live either. Pretty much only because he's Russian and not Canadian or American that he's not universally heralded as the best player in the game today (and yes, that's my opinion).



Well, I guess I am insane then.

I'll tell you this, if and when Ovechkin gives up a the slightest amount of his personal accolades and puts his team winning first, I will be the first to agree with you. When he leads his team to back to back finals, hell one final then we can talk.

However, one thing I completely agree with you on is that he is the most exciting player on the planet today. Even if you don't like or respect his game, it's pretty hard to argue that.

And the Russian thing has zero to do with my thoughts. In fact, most of my favorite players are European.
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Guest6671
( )

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  18:51:20  Reply with Quote
Well, if someone is actually watching hockey this year, Ovechkin is been out and yet he still has more goals and assets. and now Crosby is scoring goals... I dont want anyone to say blah blah he is a playermaker he is a scorer. Cause both if they wanted they could prolly do the same things as each other...

I agree 10 years will see.

Dion Phaneau And Gigure Toronto gonna be better years to come !! :)
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  22:17:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Glad you self-recognize your argument is/was flawed. Quantity doesn't mean quality, hockey isn't math, etc. I'd like to hear why it seems you'd rather have crosby take 6 shots a game and score on two rather than Ovechkin taking 12 and scoring 3-4 times, though.



Because that math does not work out. It more like Crosby takes 4-6 shots a game and scores once where Ovechkin takes 8-16 shots and scores 2. Historically speaking. Ovechkin's numbers this year, and specifically in the past 2 months have been legendary.

But that's not the reason I would take Crosby over Ovechkin. Simply, I think Crosby is better overall and does not need the flash to show how good he is. There is nothing factual or substantial I can give. I simply believe that Crosby would rather win and look bad doing it than lose and look good. I think the flash and the accolades are more important than Ovechkin than winning are.

I just have to get in on this. Shooting more does not make you a worse goal scorer. This is flawed logic. One could argue that being in position to take more shots makes a player a better goal scorer. They call this creating scoring chances and Ovechkin clearly creates more of them than any of the other players.

Anybody who becomes the go to guy for a goal is gonna get labeled selfish. I heard Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr and Crosby called selfish in there careers too. And maybe they all where/are selfish with the puck. Results are results at the end of the year the guy with the goals gets the Richard Trophy, not the guy with the best shooting percentage.
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Guest4140
( )

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  07:58:23  Reply with Quote
Crosby is the best all round player period. Ovechkin is a oneway player. He takes shots, and scores goals. But, with my team up by a goal with 1 minute left and the faceoff in my end-who'd you rather have out there???

Crosby still puts up points with kunitz and guerin as linemates.
If he had Semin and backstrom he'd have twice the points he does now.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  08:25:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4140

Crosby is the best all round player period. Ovechkin is a oneway player. He takes shots, and scores goals. But, with my team up by a goal with 1 minute left and the faceoff in my end-who'd you rather have out there???

Crosby still puts up points with kunitz and guerin as linemates.
If he had Semin and backstrom he'd have twice the points he does now.

You act like Guerin and Kunitz are pilons. For the majority of Ovechkins career he played with a lot worse than Guerin and Kunitz. Ovechkin doesnt play on a line with Semin and just cause Backstrom matured into a great setup man does not detract from the fact that the Penquins surrounded Crosby with excellent veteran talent to mature his complete game and Ovechkin up until this last year hasn't had a stellar or consistant supporting cast. I'd take Malkin, Guerin, Roberts, Gonchar, Hossa, Sykora, Satan etc etc etc, over what Ovechkins had for linemates
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  09:35:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Glad you self-recognize your argument is/was flawed. Quantity doesn't mean quality, hockey isn't math, etc. I'd like to hear why it seems you'd rather have crosby take 6 shots a game and score on two rather than Ovechkin taking 12 and scoring 3-4 times, though.



Because that math does not work out. It more like Crosby takes 4-6 shots a game and scores once where Ovechkin takes 8-16 shots and scores 2. Historically speaking. Ovechkin's numbers this year, and specifically in the past 2 months have been legendary.

But that's not the reason I would take Crosby over Ovechkin. Simply, I think Crosby is better overall and does not need the flash to show how good he is. There is nothing factual or substantial I can give. I simply believe that Crosby would rather win and look bad doing it than lose and look good. I think the flash and the accolades are more important than Ovechkin than winning are.

I just have to get in on this. Shooting more does not make you a worse goal scorer. This is flawed logic. One could argue that being in position to take more shots makes a player a better goal scorer. They call this creating scoring chances and Ovechkin clearly creates more of them than any of the other players.

Anybody who becomes the go to guy for a goal is gonna get labeled selfish. I heard Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr and Crosby called selfish in there careers too. And maybe they all where/are selfish with the puck. Results are results at the end of the year the guy with the goals gets the Richard Trophy, not the guy with the best shooting percentage.




I can't seem to comprehend why people fail to see my point. I agree that the best goal scorers normally shoot more than their share of shots. But there is a limit where shooting more does not mean scoring more.

Let's take a look at the 30 all time highest single season goal totals. Basically, anyone who scored more than 60 goals in a season. Do you know how many of those seasons came as a result of 400 or more shots?? 5. Only 1 came from more than 550 shots. And so you know, of those 5 seasons of more than 400 shots, only Esposito's 76 goals on 500 shots resulted in one of the top 10 highest goal season.

Even the best of the best of the best do not score more when taking a ludacris number of shots. They score based on quality.

And let's not get into the 70's vs 80's vs 90's. Even Lemieux in 95/96 took just 338 shots for 69 goals. Better yet, he took just 286 shots in 60 games to get 69 goals in 92/93. How about his 85 goals on 313 shots in 88/89??

This is all proof that to score a ton of goals it does not take a ton of shots. It's about the quality of shots a guy gets, not the quantity.

I never said shooting more makes you a worse goal scorer. I said that I have a higher respect for guys that can score a ton without taking a huge amount of shots. Further to that, there is a point where shooting more does not mean scoring more.


Further more, did you know that Ovechkin's best goal output came from a season of less than 450 shots???

Edited by - Beans15 on 02/09/2010 09:47:24
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Guest6309
( )

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  10:29:31  Reply with Quote
Ovie has plus 41 to Crosbys plus 7, and he has more goals and apples this year, in less games played. I don't know who id rather have on my team both are proven leaders. But this year Ovie is better in every category. Stats don't lie.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  10:47:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans I understand your point. I dont agree, but the point you are trying to get across is clear. This is not the 70-80-90's or even 00's. And right now in the state of the game the guy who scores the most and is the most likely to get the Richard shoots 3 for every 2 times as the closest goal scorer. If they want to be the man and score more than Ovechkin, they better start shooting more cause the only way to judge who is the best goal scorer is by how many goal the player scores. At the end of the day Gretzky is not remembered as the guy who scored a lot of goals and had the highest shooting percentage, he's remembered as the guy with the most goals and a good shooting percentage. Bossy may have one of the best shooting percentages the game has seen, but he is not considered the greatest goalscorer of all time either, just a really good one. Maybe Bossy should shot a few more?

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 02/09/2010 10:50:10
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  11:39:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Beans I understand your point. I dont agree, but the point you are trying to get across is clear. This is not the 70-80-90's or even 00's. And right now in the state of the game the guy who scores the most and is the most likely to get the Richard shoots 3 for every 2 times as the closest goal scorer. If they want to be the man and score more than Ovechkin, they better start shooting more cause the only way to judge who is the best goal scorer is by how many goal the player scores. At the end of the day Gretzky is not remembered as the guy who scored a lot of goals and had the highest shooting percentage, he's remembered as the guy with the most goals and a good shooting percentage. Bossy may have one of the best shooting percentages the game has seen, but he is not considered the greatest goalscorer of all time either, just a really good one. Maybe Bossy should shot a few more?



Ok, did you just say that Mike Bossy is not considered the greatest goal scorer in history??Seriously, did your really post that??

That tells me enough to know that it's not even reasonalbe to make an rebuttle to this.

Mike Bossy is just a really good goal scorer.

I think I have now heard it all.

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Guest9836
( )

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  12:26:40  Reply with Quote
I'm with Beans on this one.
History LessonTime, Bossy may have been the best pure goal scorer ever, period. If he wasn't cut down by injuries (forced to retire at age 30) he could very likely hold the goal scoring record or at least be top 3:

Try this scenario: avg of 35 goals for 6 more seasons plus another 3 at 20 goals would take him to 843 goals at age 39. that's allowing for a sizeable downtrend in this numbers.

Starting with his rookie year he scored 50+ goals for 9 consecutive seasons and 38 in 63 games in his last season. Gretzky does not hold this record (consecutive 50+ goal seasons). He also had five 60 goal seasons in this time frame. For a total of 573 goals in 752 games.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  12:59:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9836

I'm with Beans on this one.
History LessonTime, Bossy may have been the best pure goal scorer ever, period. If he wasn't cut down by injuries (forced to retire at age 30) he could very likely hold the goal scoring record or at least be top 3:

Try this scenario: avg of 35 goals for 6 more seasons plus another 3 at 20 goals would take him to 843 goals at age 39. that's allowing for a sizeable downtrend in this numbers.

Starting with his rookie year he scored 50+ goals for 9 consecutive seasons and 38 in 63 games in his last season. Gretzky does not hold this record (consecutive 50+ goal seasons). He also had five 60 goal seasons in this time frame. For a total of 573 goals in 752 games.



Another way to look at it is if you take Gretzky out of th equation, Bossy would every tangible goal scoring record with the exception of most goals. (Most consecutive 50+ and 60+ goal season, fastest player to 100 goals, fastest to 300 goals, 2nd fastest to 500 goals(Lemieux beat him here) and lets no forget the playoff goal records either!!)


But he's just an ok goal scorer. Good, but deinately not great by some standards.

Oneof the greatest to ever play the game?? That's absurd!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  13:44:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

53goals 38assists 91points rookie year stats are incredible but 64 83 147 in 1982 was the best that Bossy could accomplish on the NYI Dynasty while topping out for goals at 69goals in 1978-1979. Im not deminishing his stats or accomplishments I mean 9 times in ten years 50 goals is incredible.


43goals 61assists 104points was Gretzkys rookie year while his best was 52goals 163assists 215points in 1985-1986 while topping out at 92 goals. These numbers are a huge difference from what the best Bossy could accomplish. Wayne did accomplish 8 consecutive seasons of 50 plus goals and accomplished that feat 9 time in his career. One thing more Gretzky did Bossy didnt is 4 time consecutive 70 goal seasons. Bossy didnt even do it once.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  14:24:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agreed Joshua, when looking at pure quantity stats, Gretzky is better than Bossy.

However, who is better than Bossy other than Gretzky???

I can agree that only names that belong with Bossy are Gretzky, Hull(either), Lemieux, and maybe Esposito.

That's it!

Getting back to the point, part of what made Bossy so brilliant is that he scored often. He was one of only a few guy that could literally score on every shot. He didn't take 500 shots a year because a) he didn't have to to be effective, and b) he took high quality shots.

All I have said is that I have greater respect for a player who scores a ton of goals and does it without taking a huge amount of shots.


To say that Bossy was just an good goal scorer is like saying Marty Broduer is just a good goalie or that Gordie Howe played for a little while. It's not giving the respect to the true greats in the game.
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Guest6671
( )

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  19:24:58  Reply with Quote
If we talk overall does the word stats matter? Overall is saying that someone could hit, shoot harder, skate better, and all. To me Crosby and Ovechkin are both highly talented. Then if we look at stats this year Ovechkin is leading over Crosby in points and has more goals and assets with 3 less games. Saying who they play with does have a main reason but if they are as great as they say they would be able to work off them players and play as awell as they would normally, just those other good players is a bonus. Also when you say who shoots more for goals and that does it matter time to time for how many shots do you not think who is the goalie as there is good goalies that make great saves to others that the goalie may be rookie and make mistakes.

Really all the debate over who is better so flawed and pointless to keep a debate over who is better.
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie



165 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  23:15:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, stop defending your baseless opinion. Great, you have more respect for guys who have a higher shooting %. Good for you, the stat-books, people who vote for mvp and the scoreboards couldn't care less.

Let's also not forget that Ovechkin is 2-time reigning league MVP. Yes, Pittsburgh beat Washington in 7 once Varlamov crapped his pants last year, but also remember that as good a series Crosby had, Ovechkin was leading playoff scoring when the Caps were eliminated. Let's also not forget that Crosby didn't win the Conn Smythe or even really play in the deciding game 7. So all the idiots saying he 'led' pitt to their stanley cup give your noggins a shaking please.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  01:19:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Putting my moderating hat on for a second, it would be appreciate if we could refrain from calling people names such as 'idiot.' Everyone on this site has the right to their own opinion. No one has the right to ridicule people with personal attacks or name calling.

The beauty of this site is the difference of opinion and the debates that take place. Like my good old Grandpa used to tell me, treat people they way you want to be treated.

If in doubt, please refer to the forum guidelines.

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=609
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=608
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Guest8047
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Posted - 02/10/2010 :  02:07:22  Reply with Quote
Ovechkin Is the obvious choice here. Ovechkin gets just as many assists as crosby does. Dont get me wrong there both great. Ovis just greater.
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie



165 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  07:23:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never said 'idiots' in reference to anyone in particular, just the popularly- held viewpoint that Crosby led Pitt to their cup last year. If that's crossing the line, then lol- lighten up.
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Guest7540
( )

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  07:46:59  Reply with Quote
Ovechkin is a better goal scorer. However, Crosby plays center, he wins faceoffs. Center is the most important position in a team after goaltender. Look at all the best players all time. They are almost all centers. Crosby plays PK, he is put in defensive situations which Ovechkin is not. They both have different styles and I wouldn't say no to either one but my choice is Crosby.
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  08:26:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tipping my hat to Ovie on this one. Stats aside there isn't a more exciting player to watch on the ice today. Ovechkin breakaways make opposing goalies soil themselves, and can get arenas full of Hockey fans on their feet.

No one is going to be able to "prove" that Crosby is better than Ovie. So really this is just boiling down to who people like more.

The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
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Larrydavid
Top Prospect

Canada
37 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  09:11:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Someone should define what "BEST" means first. Ovechkin is the most exciting no doubt, that's his style. Crosby is better than Ovechkin at a lot of things.
When they did a survey of NHL GM's about who you would start a franchise with it was overwhelmingly Crosby. Are all these GMs stupid (some are)
Stats don't tell you everything I would still take Crosby over Ovechkin.

The argument about Crosby having better players in insane. If Crosby was playing with Semin, Backstrom, Green etc he would have more points.

How many of Ovechkins assists are actually passes, not too many.
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Larrydavid
Top Prospect

Canada
37 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  09:14:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I forgot

Ovechkin does lead in most stats just not the important ones
Stanley Cups Crosby 1 Ovechkin 0
Head to Head Playoffs Crosby 1 Ovechkin 0

I agree Crosby didn't stand out in the final but without him they would never have beaten Washington.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  09:53:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Larrydavid

Someone should define what "BEST" means first. Ovechkin is the most exciting no doubt, that's his style. Crosby is better than Ovechkin at a lot of things.
When they did a survey of NHL GM's about who you would start a franchise with it was overwhelmingly Crosby. Are all these GMs stupid (some are)
Stats don't tell you everything I would still take Crosby over Ovechkin.

The argument about Crosby having better players in insane. If Crosby was playing with Semin, Backstrom, Green etc he would have more points.

How many of Ovechkins assists are actually passes, not too many.


Guess Malkin, Kunitz, Guerin, Fleury, Gonchar and Stall are all tools, eh! Come on the teamate arguement doesn't hold water. I think having a better team defense hasn't helped Crosby open up offensively, knowing its not on him to cover both ends of the rink. Playing in front of Fluery cant hurt either, as he's way better than the host of rookie goalies or Theodore in net, which sure takes the pressure off when you know the guy behind you isn't gonna let in a softy on a regular basis.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  10:38:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Comparatively speak Joshua, it's hard to argue the skill level of Ovechkin's line vs Crosby's line. The arguement absolutely holds water

There is not a chance in hell any hockey guy will take Kunitz and Guerin over Semin and Backstrom.

Furthermore, although I agree a better goalie should help a team win more, the effectiveness of a goalie has little to nothing to do with offensive productivity.

I don't believe anyone is saying Crosby's line mates and team mates are not good. But it's pretty hard to argue the skill level of specifically Backstom, Semin, and Green comparative. Although one could compare Malkin and Gonchar, but most often(at least the games I have watched) Crosby only plays PP with those two where most of Ovechkin's minutes are playing with the the elite on Ovechkin.

Call it a coaching issue or what ever, but Ovechkin is nearly always supported with his teams best players where Crosby is not.

I agree the Ovechkin is the more exciting player to watch. Absolutely bring something to the table that few I have ever watched can. But I don't believe that exciting = Better player.

If I want money and fans in the seats, I take Ovechkin. If I want to win in the long run, I take Crosby.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  11:09:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe I just prefer Malkin, Kunitz, Gonchar, Stall and Guerin to Backstrom, Semin, Green and company. I just dont see a big difference between them. Kunitz, Guerin and Stall for me is as good as the usually injured for a good portion of the season Semin. Green and Backstrom for Gonchar and Malkin for me is a wash. I think the supporting cast behind the Penquins is deeper which opens up the ice for Crosby more, especially considering they can send out Malkin and Crosby on 2 seperate lines to spead opposition shutdown guys out. I think the situation in Pittsburg is more advantagous to Crosby.
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Guest4140
( )

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  11:21:38  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4140

Crosby is the best all round player period. Ovechkin is a oneway player. He takes shots, and scores goals. But, with my team up by a goal with 1 minute left and the faceoff in my end-who'd you rather have out there???

Crosby still puts up points with kunitz and guerin as linemates.
If he had Semin and backstrom he'd have twice the points he does now.

You act like Guerin and Kunitz are pilons. For the majority of Ovechkins career he played with a lot worse than Guerin and Kunitz. Ovechkin doesnt play on a line with Semin and just cause Backstrom matured into a great setup man does not detract from the fact that the Penquins surrounded Crosby with excellent veteran talent to mature his complete game and Ovechkin up until this last year hasn't had a stellar or consistant supporting cast. I'd take Malkin, Guerin, Roberts, Gonchar, Hossa, Sykora, Satan etc etc etc, over what Ovechkins had for linemates




Are you actually trying to tell me that guerin and kunitz are first line guys??? Maybe guerin was 5 years ago per lockout, but in no way is he now and kunitz never was or is going to be.

If you'd take roberts (end of his career), sykora, satan, hossa (only played FOR THE PLAYOFFS!) and guerin over backstrom, semin, bradley, green, then wow. Good luck with that!

For your information ov has played on a line with semin for much of his career.

In terms of offence, washington has a huge advantage with the tallent they have. What seperates them from a stanley cup team is the lack of two way play. Lead by there captain ovechkin.

Like I said, you take ovechkin, give me crosby any day!
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie



165 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  11:50:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did anyone watch the Penguins last year in the playoffs? Or at all for that matter? Yes, Kunitz isn't an all-star and Guerin is a bit of a plumber at this point in his career, But 5 on 5 is only a small sample of the game. Penguins are amazing because they have the reigning Conn Smythe winner and regular-season points leader, as well as the best third line in hockey (Staal/Kennedy/Cooke),

You can't cover Crosby with your best Defence all the time because those other guys will burn you. This leads to favourable matchups within each game. Also, when the Pens are on the PP who does Crosby play with? Malkin/Gonchar/Staal etc. Late in games the lines are thrown on and Crosby/Malkin always play together.

Ovechkin's teammates are better offensively for sure, at least this year. In years past, though, he was a one-man show. Look at his rookie season and how bad the rest of the caps were.

The most important difference between the caps/pens is that Pitt has a slightly stronger defence, and is infinitely better off in goal. WIthout Fleury, Pitt doesn't beat Washington in the playoffs last year. They don't even come close. Until Washington gets a real goalie (or Varlamov develops further) then you cannot argue Ovechkin has a better supporting cast then Crosby.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  12:14:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4140

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4140

Crosby is the best all round player period. Ovechkin is a oneway player. He takes shots, and scores goals. But, with my team up by a goal with 1 minute left and the faceoff in my end-who'd you rather have out there???

Crosby still puts up points with kunitz and guerin as linemates.
If he had Semin and backstrom he'd have twice the points he does now.

You act like Guerin and Kunitz are pilons. For the majority of Ovechkins career he played with a lot worse than Guerin and Kunitz. Ovechkin doesnt play on a line with Semin and just cause Backstrom matured into a great setup man does not detract from the fact that the Penquins surrounded Crosby with excellent veteran talent to mature his complete game and Ovechkin up until this last year hasn't had a stellar or consistant supporting cast. I'd take Malkin, Guerin, Roberts, Gonchar, Hossa, Sykora, Satan etc etc etc, over what Ovechkins had for linemates




Are you actually trying to tell me that guerin and kunitz are first line guys??? Maybe guerin was 5 years ago per lockout, but in no way is he now and kunitz never was or is going to be.

If you'd take roberts (end of his career), sykora, satan, hossa (only played FOR THE PLAYOFFS!) and guerin over backstrom, semin, bradley, green, then wow. Good luck with that!

For your information ov has played on a line with semin for much of his career.

In terms of offence, washington has a huge advantage with the tallent they have. What seperates them from a stanley cup team is the lack of two way play. Lead by there captain ovechkin.

Like I said, you take ovechkin, give me crosby any day!

I am surprised Kunitz isn't doing better in Pittsburg, cause yah I thought he was a 1st line player while in Anahiem. Guerin still on a mid 20 goal scoring pace and the old dog still has skills. Being that Pittsburg is 3 solid centers deep with a wealth of defensive players its hard to cover all 3 lines. The whole team is, well, last years stanley cup champions. The Defense with Gonchar manning the point, is well skilled at jumping in to an offensive play. Again thats a wash for what Green and company does for Washington.

Semin doesn't play on Ovechkins line primarily, but Backstrom does. I still maintain when required you can unite Malkin and Crosby on a line to generate a goal with a guy like Guerin or Kunitz while still having the Stall line in reserve. I would take the Crosby Malkin and a plug over a united Semin, Backstrom and Ovechkin line. I just think the center piece in Washington is the player who would affect the game the most on his own skills.
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 02/10/2010 :  13:32:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Did anyone watch the Penguins last year in the playoffs? Or at all for that matter? Yes, Kunitz isn't an all-star and Guerin is a bit of a plumber at this point in his career, But 5 on 5 is only a small sample of the game. Penguins are amazing because they have the reigning Conn Smythe winner and regular-season points leader, as well as the best third line in hockey (Staal/Kennedy/Cooke),

You can't cover Crosby with your best Defence all the time because those other guys will burn you. This leads to favourable matchups within each game. Also, when the Pens are on the PP who does Crosby play with? Malkin/Gonchar/Staal etc. Late in games the lines are thrown on and Crosby/Malkin always play together.

Ovechkin's teammates are better offensively for sure, at least this year. In years past, though, he was a one-man show. Look at his rookie season and how bad the rest of the caps were.

The most important difference between the caps/pens is that Pitt has a slightly stronger defence, and is infinitely better off in goal. WIthout Fleury, Pitt doesn't beat Washington in the playoffs last year. They don't even come close. Until Washington gets a real goalie (or Varlamov develops further) then you cannot argue Ovechkin has a better supporting cast then Crosby.



Ok, I am a little confused here. This debate is not which team is better, it's which player is better. And as many people are speaking about how much more Ovechkin is producing that Crosby this season, then the players playing today are very relative.

I agree completely with what you are saying, but I don't see how this is a reflection of how good a player is or is not. Does Ovechkin get a benefit of playing with some of today's most electric offensive players. Definately, hence the wicked production and the overall goal differential you see from Washington. Does Crosby have the benefit of playing for a more balanced team with a reasonable depth and skill level. Definately, which is why the Pens won the Cup last year and have as good a chance as anyone this year to repeat.

However, when so many views(not your's specifically Hugh) are basing this as a "look at the point Ovechkin has put up this year, more than Crosby in less game) it woud be remiss to not talk about the supporting casts that supports that production.


Ironically, I would like to say that neither team is playing on a preticularly powerful defensive team. Pitt allows 2.9 goals against to Washington's 2.7 which are 22nd and 13th in the league respectively. The also have weak PK's with Pitt at 82% and Wash at 79%.

Both teams, however are simply outscoring their opponents on the majority of nights.

But Pitt takes fewer shots to do so.

Zing!!(Kidding)
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Guest4602
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Posted - 02/10/2010 :  14:02:09  Reply with Quote
I think it comes down to their linemates. Look at who Ovy plays with every night vs. who Sid plays with every night. I mean come on! If Sid had the linemates that Ovy has he would bury him in points. And don't give that oh he has Malkin crap. Malkin jumps up for a shift with Sid maybe twice a game at most. Other than that Sid is playing with a near 40 year old (Kunitz) and a guy who would be on the 3rd or 4th line on any other team (Dupuis)
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Hugh G. Rection
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Posted - 02/10/2010 :  18:47:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, Kunitz is nowhere near 40 year(he's usually with Malkin in their usual line-combos). Also, since everyone always says how much better Crosby makes his teammates, why has Kunitz struggled so much in Pittsbugh? I;ll give Guerin some slack since he's a dinosaur, but that is food for thought.

And don't tell me #87 never plays with quality players because the first PP unit is Malkin, Crosby Gonchar etc. If the Pens are losing late in periods Sid and Malkin play together all the time. I'm not sure how this thread devolved into 'who has a better supporting cast' but it has nothing to do with the original post.
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Alex116
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5809 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  20:24:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll say this for sure, Ovechkin showed some selfishness tonight imo. He was on to start OT and had a chance to leave the ice after a pretty long 4 on 4 shift after just over a minute. NOPE, he skated near the bench, another forward began to come over the boards and had to retreat when 8 decided to head back up ice. Spent almost 2 full mins on the ice before finally leaving for a rest. Was back out there with just over a min and a half left when McGuire prob pissed a lot of guys off by saying "Ovechkin will likely be out for the remainder" (not sure why that bugs some of you, but i'm sure it did?). Well, in this case, he did have a break at the one minute mark (whistle) so it's not as bad but he did play the rest. Guess there's a minus 1 for him since the Habs scored to win it with 8 seconds left?

What i'm trying to say is, he prob should have left the ice after the first minute of OT. He really didn't need to get back in on the rush as the guy who was going to come on for him was ready and fresh and could have joined in for him!!! Oh, and for those who are interested, he took one of his much talked about patented "wristers" from just inside the blueline in OT. Sorry, hit the glass after missing the net?
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 02/10/2010 :  21:54:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Actually, Kunitz is nowhere near 40 year(he's usually with Malkin in their usual line-combos). Also, since everyone always says how much better Crosby makes his teammates, why has Kunitz struggled so much in Pittsbugh? I;ll give Guerin some slack since he's a dinosaur, but that is food for thought.

And don't tell me #87 never plays with quality players because the first PP unit is Malkin, Crosby Gonchar etc. If the Pens are losing late in periods Sid and Malkin play together all the time. I'm not sure how this thread devolved into 'who has a better supporting cast' but it has nothing to do with the original post.




I don't think anyone is saying Crosby does not play with quality. However, I think it's virtually impossible to argue that when considering normal line mates, there is no one I can think of that would take Dupuis, Kunitz, Guerin over Semin, Backstrom, Knuble.

And I do believe that there is an impact of playing with Backstrom nearly exclusively that Crosby could only make if playing with Malkin exclusively. It does support the offensive production to say the least.
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Hugh G. Rection
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Posted - 02/11/2010 :  09:04:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Backstrom is the man, no debate. The problem with Malkin/Crosby is that both are centres, and Malkin undoubtedly plays much better there than he does on the wing (except when he takes draws, man he's brutal). Malkin/Crosby at the same time isn't as good as it should be because of this, although its still damn good.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2010 :  11:12:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection

Backstrom is the man, no debate. The problem with Malkin/Crosby is that both are centres, and Malkin undoubtedly plays much better there than he does on the wing (except when he takes draws, man he's brutal). Malkin/Crosby at the same time isn't as good as it should be because of this, although its still damn good.



I agree, Malkin/Crosby is not as effective 5 on 5 as Ovechkin/Backstrom based on natual positions.

However,Malkin on one 1/2 board and Crosby on the other on the PP is friggin sick.

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Guest6671
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Posted - 02/13/2010 :  15:03:11  Reply with Quote
Lmao this is all a bias joke now.. as saying there line mates now is competely crazy as a joke as well.. saying if Crosby is a great playmaker as people say it really doesnt matter weather or not the line of people he plays with if a good chance they should be able to score or unless why are they in the nhl.. Kunitz and Guerin as veteran as know how it is done. Ovechkin does play with other talented players and saying he doesnt make nice passes for goals is ridicoulous you watch the real intensity he brings and threat to the plays even if he doesnt touch the puck or if he does and makes a nice goal he is an amazing player.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2010 :  15:23:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
However,Malkin on one 1/2 board and Crosby on the other on the PP is friggin sick.



It's amazing that the Pens powerplay is as bad as it is, something like 29th out of 30 teams. When you can put out a unit with Sergei Gonchar on the point, and both Sid & Geno up front, they should be able to ice one of the best units in the league.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2010 :  15:25:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just looked it up, Pens are 26th in the league at 16.6%. That's insane.
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Guest4916
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Posted - 02/13/2010 :  15:41:09  Reply with Quote
I think that most of you are just punks that drink too much beer before writing.
Hockey today is ruined by goons. Many of the would be stars are on sick bay on account of hitting from behind etc.
and you guys never talk about that...just who's the best,. Goals scored are recorded only because there was one or two assists. I know that assists are more important than goals.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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