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Guest9686
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 Posted - 09/08/2009 : 19:00:36
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I'm sure this will get all the leaf fans riled up.
Is Burke a hypocrite if he puts an offer for Kessel considering the tongue lashing he gave Lowe for Penner? Also can Kessel be productive after coming back from injury if Marc Savard wasn't feeding him the puck? Remember Penner, he had this guy named Getzlaf with him, Kessel had Savard with him. The parallels are eerie.
So Leafs fans, is he worth the $4-5 million, 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks in 2010 (and the additional 3rd round (to chicago) in 2011 that they traded to get their 2010 2nd round back)? Yeah complex wheelin and dealing so try to keep up.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 21:39:36
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Well, i'm not a Leaf fan, no a Burke fan by any means , therefore i won't get riled up, however, i'll comment....
Is he a hypocrite? Well, no, not necessarily. If i recall correctly, he was pissed that the Oilers offered what was considered a ridiculous amount? So ridiculous in fact, that he didn't match. If that were Getzlaf, darn rights he'd have matched! The dollars thrown at Penner were just simply crazy in Burke's mind, and imo, he was correct.
9686, you've made a good point though about Kessel. IS HE WORTH the money they'll need to shell out? I'm not so sure. While i think he's better now than Penner ever was or will be, i still think he's the kind of scoring winger who needs an above average center to feed him. If Burke can't trade for him, i don't think he'll sign him to an offer sheet, unless it's one easily matched by the Bruins. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 21:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Well, i'm not a Leaf fan, no a Burke fan by any means, therefore i won't get riled up, however, i'll comment....
Is he a hypocrite? Well, no, not necessarily. If i recall correctly, he was pissed that the Oilers offered what was considered a ridiculous amount? So ridiculous in fact, that he didn't match. If that were Getzlaf, darn rights he'd have matched! The dollars thrown at Penner were just simply crazy in Burke's mind, and imo, he was correct.
9686, you've made a good point though about Kessel. IS HE WORTH the money they'll need to shell out? I'm not so sure. While i think he's better now than Penner ever was or will be, i still think he's the kind of scoring winger who needs an above average center to feed him. If Burke can't trade for him, i don't think he'll sign him to an offer sheet, unless it's one easily matched by the Bruins.
Let's say they get Kessel. Who is he gonna play with that is gonna make him worth 3.9-5.2 per year? Will he really put up the same numbers in Toronto without Savard? |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 05:14:45
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Yeah, he may not put up the same numbers as last year (Kessel) if playing for the Leafs, especially since he'd only start playing around mid-November . . . but, I think he is at least worth the gamble at this time, anyways.
No, Kessel is nto a proven commodity by any means, but he is a potential 40-50 goal scorer in the future in the right situation as he matures further. He seems like a tenacious sort with a high skill level and a decent head on his shoulders. No, we don't have Savard feeding him beauties, but I do think that in the near future, a true #1 center will come to Toronto. As always, finding the right chemistry will be key.
And boy, will Burke ever look smart getting him for a few picks (admittedly, one is a first rounder, but I wouldn't cry over it) after getting the stiff-arm from Boston when they wanted Kaberle AND Schenn for Kessel . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 09/09/2009 : 06:24:40
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Slozo, not sure if you're being serious. But I don't believe Burke will look "smart" for picking him up for our 1st 2nd and 3rd pick. That loss of picks would be his equalizer to every other GM who came to T.O. talking about building from the draft, adding depth, etc. and then trading away a whack load of picks for a possibly overrated player, or at least overvalued (he seems to be the only thing out there right now and it's inflating his price).
Just not sure if the stats add up to a throw away draft year.
3 seasons - 29pts in 70 gms, 37pts in 82 gms, 60pts in 70 games (playing with a player the caliber of Savard as others pointed out).
I'd hate to lose those picks for a guy who gets 40-55 pts once he gets here. I'd cry over the loss of any 1st round draft pick unless we got back a 100% sure thing superstar. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 06:25:42
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Burke absolutely is a hypocrite for many of the things he says, this included. Burke has proven, specifically this summer, that if it is him doing the action it's fine but anyone else and it's wrong. He can say all he wants about blind siding, blah blah blah. I can put lipstick on a pig but I don't think it would get a date.
Here's the deal, first his comments about Heatley saying that if a player ever demands a trade, he would never have that players on his team.
I guess Chris Pronger didn't demand a trade??? Burke snapped him up as soon as he could and took advantage of the fact there was a trade demand on got Pronger for less than he was worth at the time.
Then, he says that it's ok if he signs Kessel to an offer sheet because he is making it public but Lowe was wrong because he blindsided Burke.
What a joke. I can appreciate that he has done good things in TO and the team looks better on paper, but the guy talks out of both sides of his mouth. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 08:17:50
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Guest 9838 - I am being serious.
So far, Burke has done a lot of seriously good work in totally revamping the defence, and setting up a good scenario in goal. He's only tugged at the forwards so far, and there's sure to be more nips and tucks in the future.
The 2010 draft is weak, according to many.
Phil Kessel used to be calles a prospect that was as good as Crosby potentially, but he disappointed his last two years and ended up getting picked 5th by the Bruins. His stats have increased each year.
I am going to go out on a limb, and say that in terms of hockey knowledge, Burke is smarter than I am, or you are. So, I think he feels like this is a small gamble for a potentially huge payoff, and is willing to take that risk. No question that after shoulder surgery, and with an unproven player, it is a risk; but it sure isn't as risky as say, getting three picks in the 2010 draft and hoping that even ONE of them becomes a full-time NHLer, nevermind a very solid scoring threat who has turned around his game to reflect earlier projections of an elite player (potentially).
At the very, very least . . . he can score thirty goals for you and would be overpaid for a year or two. At best, he could be our top scoring first line player, who happens to play with grit and tenacity.
After this year, where will the Leafs pick in the first round, and what're the chances that pick (or the 2nd and 3rd rounders) will turn into something close to that?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 09:19:46
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All draft picks, are somewhat of a crapshoot. Well, most anyway, especially after the first round. It's one of those scenarios where Kessel could become a 40/40 guy in TO but that 3rd rounder could be the next Datsyuk and ten years from now, TO, to most, would have lost that trade (or signing)! Well, you can't say that, because TO prob wouldn't have picked that "Datsyuk" guy with the same pick.
Either way, if Burke can get him at a decent price (4 mil?) maybe it's not a bad move for the Leafs? I agree that eventually there's gotta be a decent center in TO.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 09:32:12
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Has anyone even cared to notice the fact that Burke said he has no interest in signing Kessel to an offer sheet? He said he would try to acquire him via trade. Don't put words into his mouth.
Also, I don't think it would be hypocritical at all.
Here is Burkes quote when the Lowe/Burke thing was going on:
"I have no problem with offer sheets, they are part of the CBA. I think it's a tool certainly a team is entitled to use. My issue here is this is the second time this year in my opinion Edmonton have offered a grossly inflated salary for a player, and it impacts on all 30 teams and I think it's an act of desperation by a general manager who is fighting to keep his job."
As long as Burke doesnt offer Kessel something in the range of $7 Million, than he isn't being a hypocrite. Lowe's offer was just so ridiculous and stupid that it pissed Burke off.
Plus, check out Kessels top 10 goals on youtube, that kid doesn't need Marc Savard to score.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:15:57
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Well Matt, that's how it is in Toronto . . . and in much of Canada. Everything you say as Toronto GM will get analysed, twisted, and put through the ringer, in the end to only reflect whatever view the "reporter" or poster here already had.
In the end, I could give a rat's as* about what Burke said in an offhand remark to a badgering reporter asking him about some overpriced offer that peed him off. Who really cares, frankly. It impacts exactly nothing in terms of his performance as a GM.
And frankly, people here have to turn on their lie detectors . . . seriously. We are talking about two GMs, one of them in the centre of the hockey universe, who are in the middle of strategic wrangling over a player who was 13th in scoring last year . . . that's right ahead of Iginla and Malkin, in 12 less games.
If a GM says we're not looking at him anymore, but the club desperately needs what he's got, they're probably still looking at him. If the GM says we aren't thinking of signing an offer sheet right after they made a small trade for draft picks to actually make that possible, then that's most likely still a very strong option!
And if the media and posters alike are willing to compare what a 25/26 year old Penner made after scoring 29 goals in his second year as a budding power forward, to what Kessel might be offered after scoring 36 in his third year as a 21 year old budding skilled sniper, without comparing them to the rest of the market to see how "out of touch" each offer was/is, and then pretending to "call out" a GM's honest opinion on the first one? Then go ahead, have fun . . . but don't pretend to be honestly looking at the situation with logic and impartiality.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:28:26
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| Slozo, are you really comparing Kessel's one year with 36 goals to Malkin and Iginla. That's the kind of thinking that brought Blake to Toronto. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:35:04
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Good stuff sloz, couldn't agree more.
If Burke can make the team better on the ice by signing an RFA, without completley selling the farm and f'n up the salary cap than do it. Especially a guy like Kessel.
The media and the leaf/burke haters would have a field day if it happened though. Keeps things interesting I guess.
As far as giving up a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd for him is concerned, I would do it. The way I see it, Kessel is like a 1st round pick at 21 years old, and the 2nd and 3rd rounders are worth losing to get a legitimate top player on the roster. Drafts picks are a crapshoot and to be able to turn them into something that is much more of a sure thing is ok in my book, but only for 1 year. I wouldn't be trying to do something like that every season...
That being said, I would definatley prefer the trade route... trading draft picks is still very much a scary thought..
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:40:19
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Well Gents, as often is the case, there is a hue of blue through the glasses you are wearing. The Burke situation is exactly the same as the Penner situation. What does the money have to do with it?? Do you think for a second that Boston is going to let Kessel go as a gift?? If Burke does go the route of an Offer Sheet, he will have to over pay the same way Lowe overpaid for Penner.
Same situation.
I am not able to do it right now, but I will spend the time in the next little while to produce actual quotes from Burke that shows his being hipocritical in the case of Offer Sheets to RFA's as well as Player who demanded trades.
It has nothing to do with Toronto. Burke was a hypocrite well before he became the GM there. He's just doing it even more this summer. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Slozo, are you really comparing Kessel's one year with 36 goals to Malkin and Iginla. That's the kind of thinking that brought Blake to Toronto.
I was wondering that myself... didn't Malkin finish 1st? not 13th...?
Also, the funny part about Blake is, Thank God we have him now... he was awesome last year. If he can get 25g and 40a again that would be swell.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Slozo, are you really comparing Kessel's one year with 36 goals to Malkin and Iginla. That's the kind of thinking that brought Blake to Toronto.
I was wondering that myself... didn't Malkin finish 1st? not 13th...?
Also, the funny part about Blake is, Thank God we have him now... he was awesome last year. If he can get 25g and 40a again that would be swell.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Matt, i too was confused at first, but he's talking about goal scoring, not points, when comparing him to Iginla and Malkin. He also finished ahead of Crosby, Datsyuk, Getlaf, Backstrom, Thornton, Richards, need i go on? Guess he's saying he's a sniper?
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:59:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well Gents, as often is the case, there is a hue of blue through the glasses you are wearing. The Burke situation is exactly the same as the Penner situation. What does the money have to do with it?? Do you think for a second that Boston is going to let Kessel go as a gift?? If Burke does go the route of an Offer Sheet, he will have to over pay the same way Lowe overpaid for Penner.
Same situation.
I am not able to do it right now, but I will spend the time in the next little while to produce actual quotes from Burke that shows his being hipocritical in the case of Offer Sheets to RFA's as well as Player who demanded trades.
It has nothing to do with Toronto. Burke was a hypocrite well before he became the GM there. He's just doing it even more this summer.
Ugh, this isn't Leaf bias Beans. I already provided one quote that clearly states what Burkes view of RFA offer sheets was at the time. The media blew the story up so huge it made Burke seem like he was on a quest to destroy RFA offer sheets when really he was just pissed at the situation he beleived Kevin Lowe had put the league into. Lowe blindsided the Ducks with that offer sheet and it pissed Burke off yes, The fact that Lowe tried to do it to Buffalo as well, with a HUGE contract to vanek is what set him off in the press. He was right at the time and he is right now. Burke beleives that an offer sheet is fine, just dont offer a player who made $500 000 a raise that will put him at $10 million. It throws the whole league out of whack when it comes to comparibles.
And again, dont just assume Burke is going to sign him to an offer sheet. Considering he already stated he has no plan to do so, its hard to critizie him for something he hasnt and isnt planning on doing...
As far as the Pronger situation is concerned, the story is a little twisted I think.... Im not sure if Pronger went public on purpose or not. Didn't Heatley go straight to the media with his demands? I think Pronger went to Lowe first then the story got leaked. You'd know better than I beans, considering you live in Edmonton.
Cant wait for the rebutal 
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 11:12:55
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That's right 9838, that's what I was doing . . . I was saying that Phil Kessel was just as good as Iginla and Malkin. 
Oh wait . . . no, I just said that he scored 36 goals, one more than those guys, and in 12 less games no less. THIS IS FACT. Clearly, at least at this point, Iginla and Malkin are on a different playing level (see: a higher one!) than young Kessel . . . but the potential is there, and, I can't underline enough how difficult it is to score more than 35 goals in this league right now.
In terms of market price, what Kessel is asking for is about right, when you examine other scorers, and take into consideration age, skill level, and projected improvement on young totals.
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 09/10/2009 04:17:30 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 11:29:15
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| Actually Matt, Heatly went to Murray 2 months before the leak and Pronger went to the press. It was forced upon Edmonton by Pronger's wife not just Pronger himself. I heard there was a problem with Chris's marriage. Thats the way I heard anyway. I figure if you reunited Penner with a talented center like Getzlaf he may show why Edmonton over paid for him. He is probably only a 2.5 to 3 million a year player though, so dont go thinking I agree with 4 million a year. But Im not sold that Kessel's value would better, if he was in Penners shoes. I think most players contracts are overpaid anyway, but you gotta fill piece's on a team to get buts in the seats. |
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Posted - 09/09/2009 : 11:29:16
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And Beans, I ALREADY DEMONSTRATED that Penner and Kessel are DIFFERENT SITUATIONS, but YOU ARE NOT LISTENING!
Again, this is entirely a media constructed argument to create a bigger story than it is, welcome to the media of today! It's like the frickin' National Enquirer, it is . . .
A GM makes a remark of disgust at what was clearly a VERY overpriced offer to Penner. This overpriced offer was done on purpose, to make sure that Burke at the time couldn't match it. Every GM was angry about that one, as they should be - it inflates player prices. Not ONCE did Burke to my knowledge say that he disagreed with the rule, or the fact that an offer could be made in that situation.
Of course, I am sure the media insinuated stuff, all kinds of OPINIONS and RUMOURS about what they think Burke actually thought . . . but that is just to sell papers and give some sort of retarded "inside scoop".
And now, Burke HAS THE ABILITY TO tender an offer to a younger, better player in Kessel, and it WOULD PROBABLY BE for approximately market value, IF IT EVER HAPPENS. And, unlike the offer that was faxed in to him with Penner, Burke has kept the Boston side updated and informed the whole way well before he . . . made a trade to have the ABILITY TO MAKE AN OFFER.
My credulity strains at the comparison.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 11:35:45
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Ok Mr. Roberts. Couple of things.
1 - Heatley went to Murray first and then it went to the media. Pronger left the country on vacation and his agent went to the newspapers, not to the team. Lowe learned about the trade when he was eating his Diamond Shreddies two days after the Oilers were bounced from the Playoffs.
2 - If Burke didn't know that Lowe was going after RFA's after the Vanek sign and re-sign with Buffalo than he is a bigger moron than I thought. The Penner signing happened after the Vanek thing. Lowe said that if UFA's weren't coming to Edmonton, he would have to do other things to get players in. If that didn't tell Burke to protect his investments, nothing will. And the deal for Penner was high but not crazy. He came off of a 29 goal season with promise for more as it was his 1st full NHL season. Take a look at how many 30-40 goal scorers in the league today make less then $4 million (not on their entry level deal). It's only a bad deal because Penner dropped in production. If he would have had 30+ goals in the past 2 seasons, the deal is fair. The contract was signed on potential that wasn't reached.
3- The Vanek deal was offered the same year that Briere, Drury, and Gomez got huge contracts. The deal that Lowe offered Vanek was a cap hit of $7 million a year. Sure, the first year was $10 million but it declined after that. And Vanek has 144 goals in the past 4 seasons and he's only 25 years old. Is the the same age as Rick Nash, produces viturally the same amount of points, and has more goals in the past 4 years. Why is Rick Nash worth 8 yr -$62.5 million (7.81/season) but when Lowe offers Vanek the exact same money 7 rs - $50 million ($7.14) he is crazy???
Blue tinted glass make things look funny.Burke didn't like the fact that he wanted to keep Penner and he got scooped. Ultimately, looking how Penner turned out, Burke should be happy that he got 3 draft picks for 20 goals a season.
I still like the quote MacT made a few years ago. Burke is like the Wizard of Oz. Put him in front of a camera and he sounds pretty good. Take the camera away and there's not much there. |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 09/09/2009 : 12:13:14
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Slozo, I have to disagree with you in your interpretation of your comments. I see you're getting angry (I appreciate your passion buy not your derogatory personal comments) but by writing:
"a player who was 13th in scoring last year . . . that's right ahead of Iginla and Malkin, in 12 less games"
you are implying a comparison of these three players, you are introducing this comparison into your argument. My questioning this comparison is a logical step in this argument when valuing Kessel's worth. I'm fairly confident of my hockey literacy, and I believe I've often posted well thought out and argued comments.
That being said, many players have had breakout seasons with high goal totals that does not always translate into long term success. Kessel's history doesn't prove he'll continue to advance. He is very promising, but his future stats are NOT fact, especially once a change of location is considered. A couple years ago 4-5 million on the basis of one 60 pt season from a 21 year old would never have been considered fair value. If this is the logic you think all GMs should employ than in a few years no team will have the ability to hire anyone new as all teams will be busting out of the cap.
Question: would you pay the same $$ to sign Loui Eriksson? Loui had 36 goals (more than Malkin and Iginla no less!!), 27 assists (3 more than Kessel) last year was +14 on a lousy Dallas team
and he's 23.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 12:53:23
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Ok, I know that the penner thing happened after, but Im pretty sure he was pissed at the Vanek contract initially and then when it happened to him it was the icing on the cake. He hit the media and ripped Lowe.At the timethe Vanek offer did seem absolutley ridiculous. It's easy to look at the numbers he has put up since then and use a guy like Rick Nash as a comparible, in terms of production and the money he makes, but when that offer sheet to Vanek had to be matched by Buffalo im pretty sure it was the single biggest increase in salary ever.
At the time I think burke was right. Lowe killed the 2nd contract and we see it all over the league now.
I will conceed to you that Burke probably ran his mouth a little more than most would like, but I think he had a valid point. Lowe did seem desperate and rightfully so, no one wants to play in Edmonton (it seems) and he was offering guys who were making under a mil, huge raises. It has affected the league since, good players go from entry level deal to multi million dollar/ long term deals. It wasnt really that way before Lowe.
EDIT: Not to say he is SOLEY responsible, but it did seem to snowball after that
anyways, whatever, i know Burke isn't going to get away with this scot free if he does try an offer sheet and I can totally understand why. I just happen to think that the circustances are a little different now....
As far as the Heatley/Pronger thing goes, gainey wins again? I mean, you've got a point, I never really understood why Burke said what he said about Heatley. I guess thats big Bri for ya
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 09/09/2009 13:13:08 |
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Guest5382
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Posted - 09/09/2009 : 13:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
At the time I think burke was right. Lowe killed the 2nd contract and we see it all over the league now.
There is a blog from Jay Feaster on the Hockey News about no trade and movement clauses. There is a line in there that goes something like this: Owners and GMs are their own worst enemies.
Yeah Lowe made offers that skipped the 2nd contract. Does that mean everyone else had to do it too? Hell they started to put in no movement and trade clauses for guys they are signing for 12+ years. Crazy don't ya think? Who put guns to their heads offering these ridiculous contracts?
The rest of the GMs could have called Lowe a nut job and not go down the same path as he did. But no, maybe Lowe was onto something here and that's why all the other GMs followed. Or the players got greedy and saw the contracts thrown around and all they could see are dollar signs.
Anyways, Burke is no saint. He should go into politics next. Too bad George Carlin passed away already. He should have added professional sports GM as one of the topics of the biggest bulls**t jobs (along with advertising, politics and religion). |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 13:51:07
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Mr. Roberts, at the time Vanek signed the offer sheet to Edmonton he was coming off of a season of 43 goals, 43 assists, and less then 17 minutes of ice a game. The fact that he has proven his production in the past three years is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that today or then, a 40 goal-80 point player in the NHL has an approximate value of $7 million a season. Some are a little more others a little less. However, that figure is not insanely overpaying. Regardless of the increase over the previous contract. That's what the contract was and it was fair at the time for everyone except Lowe?? That's the part that drives me crazy. If it was Vanek resigning with Buffalo for that money, no one says anything. But it's an RFA offer sheet so that makes it garbage.
And Slozo, I will find the quotes from Burke from a few year back where he argues that the RFA's. And, as I have always said, Burke had the entire season and playoffs to sign Penner. As did Regher in Buffalo. The fact of the matter is that they were both gambling with their players and expecting to sign them for less. They lost. Burke was the loser in the deal and that is what makes him upset. He said nothing about teh Vanek thing until he lost Penner. Then, all of a sudden Lowe is a bag of crap.
It's typical, arrogant Brian Burke. The world revolves around him and only him and what's ok for him is not ok for others. Or the exact same situation is different when he is involved. Obviously, there were other offensive talents that were available in this years UFA crop and TO got none of them. So, now Burke either has to trade or Offer Sheet. Oh, but's it's different because he's doing it publicly??? Nothing in the rules says one team chasing a player has to talk to the team. They talk to the agent. And don't kid yourself, Burke would stab any GM in the back to get a player he wanted.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 15:24:57
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alright alright, i see where you're coming from, even if it has a little copper'n'blue tint to it
Burke definatley isn't everyones cup of tea and I can understand why. I happen to think he's f'n badass, always have.
Im not so sure he would "stab" any GM in the back either, from what I gather he is actually pretty respected amongst management and players and shows the same type of respect to alot of people. Ask Joe Nieuwendyk, Bob Murray, Dave Nonis or the multitude of players he has allowed to leave for other organizations to get a better shot at a full time job.
EDIT: Just to add to the post, here are some quotes from TSN.ca. Im not trying to make a point with these quotes, they are just for our reading pleasure.
"My objection was that I got blindsided by it at a time I thought was inappropriate," Burke stated. "This entire process has involved dialogue with (Bruins GM) Peter Chiarelli. I told him about reacquiring the pick, telling him the night before I got the pick that I intended to get the pick back. There has been no blindside or back door like Kevin Lowe did."
Burke also made it clear that he does not in fact object to the notion of the offer sheet which some have suggested.
"They are part of the CBA (collective bargaining agreement)," Burke stated. "And the team utilizes that tool to get better. It's not an issue to me and it wasn't an issue to me. So on that basis I don't believe that they are parallel circumstances at all."
Chiarelli also stated that there was no animosity between himself and Burke and that he had a great respect for the current Maple Leafs' president and general manager.
"We go way back and I think he's going to do a good job for the Leafs," Chiarelli told Dreger. "But we're at opposite sides of the fence and we're both competitive, but he's a good man."
When asked about his thoughts on offer sheets, Chiarelli joked:
"I will reserve my judgement on that for a month or so."
(me again) Chiarelli also stated that he would match any offer the Leafs make
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 09/09/2009 15:36:20 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 16:14:55
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We'll, we will have to agree to disagree. And although I can't defend the Copper and Blue tint to my opinion, I've thought Burke was a douche when he was still in Vancouver. Before there were any issues between Burke and the Oilers. He has always had this huge arrogance behind him for a guy who really hasn't done anything for the first 10ish years of his career. Sure, Anaheim won the Cup, but I still stand by the fact that 3/4 of that team was built by Brian Murray.
And Brian Burke, the classy act he is, pulling a Zezel. For those who do not know the story, Zezel was playing for Vancouver in 98/99 when his niece was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Zezel asked Burke for a deal at the deadline to an East Coast team to be closer to his family. Vancouver was out of the playoff race at that time. Burke promptly traded him to Anaheim to which Zezel immediately retired. The deal was for future considerations. Sure it's a business and what ever, maybe there were no takers in the East but I find that hard to beleive. A little bit of class goes a long way in the world. Burke, to me, lost any class and respect from me way before any of the Lowe/Burke/Penner stuff happens. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 09/09/2009 16:29:37 |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 17:38:57
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I think everyone is forgetting one major point here. Each GM is going to do what is the best for his team. The moves with Penner and Pronger were done out of necessity. In the Penner case Lowe was exposing the RFA offer for what it was, piracy and he needed to bring someone into Edmonton to show he was building a good team. It is way to poach teams in financial or cap trouble of there players. Not many GMs agreed with that move. I think it was good at the time but Penner was not worth it. Because of that instance not to many RFA offers get made. The Pronger deal was cut and dry, he was banging some chick in Oilville and his wife got pissed and said were outta here. It is neither here not there how it leaked. Compare it to Heatley. Heatley does not like his coach and is acting like a freakin baby with his trade demands. It shows the true nature of the ego issues in Ottawa. Burke is perfectly sane to say I do not want a guy who demands a trade because of his role on the team. So Pronger and Heatley ultimately are two different scenerios.
Now is Burke a hypocrite for his comments about the Penner deal and now his comments about the possible Kessel deal. Absolutely no friggin way. He has made it very clear to Chirelli that he is interested in Kessel and has told him that he will let him know if he decides a offer will be coming. In other words he is not blindsiding him with a ridiculous offer like Lowe did with Penner.
Do I think that Burke is going to make an offer? No, Although Kessel is an outstanding player, he is not someone to start building your offense with. I think Burke is going to take a run at someone like Kovalchuk who is pleading to get out of the hockey hotbed of Atlanta.
So one last time, Burke is not a Hypocrite, just a GM with big mouth. I think that is why he is not my favourite GM. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 09/09/2009 17:40:26 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 20:43:11
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| Porkchop..... What if Burke offers Kessel and obscene amount of money? So what if he tells Chirelli in advance. Really won't make a difference then. If he were to sign Kessel to a 8 mill per year offer sheet, it would p1ss the other GM's off as much as when Lowe did it with Penner, no? |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 04:45:58
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Ok, I've edited out my "dummy" remark, I should know better than to have to argue with profanity/personal attacks. I apologise about that.
I just really dislike it when I use the term "scoring", and people interpret it using it's secondary, albeit common enough meaning, instead of its primary meaning - scoring, as in, scoring goals (which is really the only thing you can score. You can't "score" an assist, you can only have or make one). On top of that, to jump to the conclusion that I was saying Kessel was better than the players I pointed out scored less than him . . . would have to assume I was an idiot, which I think I have shown otherwise. And lastly, if Malkin is behind Kessel in scoring and we all know he was the points leader last year, wouldn't even a casual hockey fan figure out that I was talking about GOALscoring? Jeesh!
And Beans, I'll lay off you too somewhat, because I went back and checked out your comments on Penner at the time you guys acquired him, and you have been at the very least consistant in your views and comments. So, fair enough, you think that Penner was fair value for that price . . . we will agree to disagree.
About Burke comments . . . like I said, I find them meaningless, other than getting wrapped up in some media inspired he said/she said type argument where the real discussion is lost. Arguing over whether someone is a hypocrite or not by comparing offhand or emotional responses from years ago with a different team is pretty silly, I think. There is the search for accountability, and then there is . . . digging for dirt. This is just petty mud-slinging, IMHO.
Yes, Burke is the kind of guy made for offhand comments to incite people and get others riled up and create controversy. No, I don't think he's a jerk, especially judging him by the respect he garners league wide. Using that same logic, I can figure out that guys like Keenan and Crawford and Tortorella don't get any respect from a large portion of well-entrenched hockey minds, commentators and other coaches and GMs.
I really have to look into this Zezel thing Beans, I remember hearing about it before, but I don't know the story well.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 05:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Porkchop..... What if Burke offers Kessel and obscene amount of money? So what if he tells Chirelli in advance. Really won't make a difference then. If he were to sign Kessel to a 8 mill per year offer sheet, it would p1ss the other GM's off as much as when Lowe did it with Penner, no?
Honestly who in their right mind is going to offer Kessel 8 mil. Burke may be a loud mouth and to some a hypocrite but he is not stupid. Any offer for Kessel by any GM will likely be in the 4.5 to 5 mil per year range. Don't forget Kessel will not likely play til December. As I said earlier, although Burke clearly likes Kessel I think he is looking elsewhere. Someone they can build their offence around. |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 09/10/2009 : 06:17:40
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Slozo, no worries, it's a hot debate, not bad for early sept where generally little is happening in hockey (outside of Phoenix).
As for the scoring part, I always assumed you were talking about goals, I just thought bringing up the two names you did didn't really make a whole lot of sense because of their overall superiority. Maybe saying that his goals were 2 more than a sniper like Gagne (with 9 less games) or 2 more than Franzen (+1 game), 3 more than a sniper like Boyes (+12 games) would have been a better comparable. I never tried to correct you in terms of where they were in pts.
My quote was:
"Slozo, are you really comparing Kessel's one year with 36 goals to Malkin and Iginla."
Also you didn't answer whether you'd make the same offer for Loui Eriksson who's had an incredibly similar start to his career as Kessel.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 07:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Porkchop..... What if Burke offers Kessel and obscene amount of money? So what if he tells Chirelli in advance. Really won't make a difference then. If he were to sign Kessel to a 8 mill per year offer sheet, it would p1ss the other GM's off as much as when Lowe did it with Penner, no?
Honestly who in their right mind is going to offer Kessel 8 mil. Burke may be a loud mouth and to some a hypocrite but he is not stupid. Any offer for Kessel by any GM will likely be in the 4.5 to 5 mil per year range. Don't forget Kessel will not likely play til December. As I said earlier, although Burke clearly likes Kessel I think he is looking elsewhere. Someone they can build their offence around.
Who you ask? How 'bout Mike Milbury? Oh, wait, he's gone. I know what you're saying, i was just using it as an example. Maybe i should have said 6 or 6.5 cuz you never know when a desperate GM "could" come along. Just saying, "what if" a GM offered him what most would consider "obscene" money (as in overpaying him).
I agree with you that Burke is looking elsewhere but he's capable of landing Kessel and continuing to look for someone else as well. He always preaches patience but i will give him credit for constantly trying to upgrade his team. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 08:49:17
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Oh, right, you're trying to get me caught in some sort of snafu, thinking that I wouldn't give Eriksson the same sort of money despite their apparent similarities.
Very similar, so probably yes, I'd give him around the same amount of money, maybe a bit less contingent on more info.
The "bit less" caveat is because quite frankly Loui certainly wasn't as highly touted as Kessler was back in the development stage, and the perception may be that he has a bit less actual "skill", thus diminishing the potential upside. Whether that is true or not about the skill, I don't know - I have never actually seen him play, thank Bettman and his schedule for that one. If I was a GM, I would have seen him myself multiple times and trusted scouting reports, which would of course give a much more defined picture of his upside.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 09:04:48
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Beans-
I forgot about that Zezel thing, that is definatley a turn off.... I have to agree with you on that. I wonder what burke was thinking... Zezel definatley didnt deserve to be treated like that.
I find that strange because he is usually pretty fair with his players...
I think burke made alot of mistakes as a GM in vancouver and will use those experiences to his advantage now. I said in a forum a while ago that Burke is in his "prime" as a GM. I beleive that everything he has gone through in Hartford, Vancouver and Anaheim has taught him alot and he should be well aware of what will work and what will not...
Again, I can see why people dont like him and I will admit he is far from a perfect GM. I just think that his type of attitude is perfect for Toronto right now and he will at least turn The Leafs into a playoff club during his tenure as GM. I can see someone else taking over in 6 years and hopefully pushing Toronto over the top.... but thats just wishful thinking on my part...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 09:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Porkchop..... What if Burke offers Kessel and obscene amount of money? So what if he tells Chirelli in advance. Really won't make a difference then. If he were to sign Kessel to a 8 mill per year offer sheet, it would p1ss the other GM's off as much as when Lowe did it with Penner, no?
thats not going to happen though... not a chance
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 09/10/2009 : 09:13:54
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Burke is a loud mouth moron. But he has hockey knowledge. He likes to confront the media and give a show. But outside, what the media can't see, he's respected and makes solid deals to improve his team. And plus he's not on the ice so what he says doesn't really matter. He's bringing all the attention on him so his players can play more freely on the ice.
And yes he's self centered but he's getting paid big money to do it. He's trying with everything he's got to improve the team. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 10:40:57
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Just to clarify, my definition of a hipocrite is a person who changes their opinion of something when it benefits them to do so. Not sure if that's the exact Webster's definition or not, but that is mine. One could argue that the situtations are different until they are blue in the fact and it will not change my opinion. My bottom line is that when Burke had a player taken from him under the RFA/Offer sheet rules, he was pissed. He ripped the crap out of the GM who did it and took it personally. Now, although he has not admitted it completely, he has eluded to doing the same thing to another team. Regardless of him communicating it or not, it's still the same thing. Is mugging someone no longer mugging them if you warn them first?? Is it ok to sleep with another man's wife if you talk to him about it first???
And the whole Heatley thing was Burke being Burke. Simply keeping his nose out of other people's business would make a guy like me less hostile against him. He traded for a player demanding a trade a few years ago and then goes on record as saying he would never have a player who demanded a trade on his team.
And the Zezel thing admittedly, is just another reason to dislike the guy. Burke very well could have tried to trade him to every single East coast team without a taker. He could have talked to Zezel personally and explained is right down to him. Burke could have done the right thing. I don't really know. The limited information about the story tells me it was a dirty move by Burke. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 10:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9262
Burke is a loud mouth moron. But he has hockey knowledge. He likes to confront the media and give a show. But outside, what the media can't see, he's respected and makes solid deals to improve his team. And plus he's not on the ice so what he says doesn't really matter. He's bringing all the attention on him so his players can play more freely on the ice.
And yes he's self centered but he's getting paid big money to do it. He's trying with everything he's got to improve the team.
That was me. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 11:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Is mugging someone no longer mugging them if you warn them first?? Is it ok to sleep with another man's wife if you talk to him about it first???
Actually, yes to both. If you told them what you are going to do, then they just stand by while you do it, than yes, it is ok.
If you tell someone that you are going to rob them, and they empty their pockets and stand there, than whatever...
if you tell a dude im gonna bang your wife tonight, and he just turns the tv up even louder, than whatev...
If Burke says "you have 3 days to sign Kessel or im going to offer sheet him" and PC does nothing, than well... tough luck
i know it sounds crude...and still morally wrong, but business is business. At least you gave them a chance to stop you...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 09/10/2009 11:04:35 |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 11:26:32
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You're right Beans, limited info on the Zezel/Burke thing . . . I didn't find one insider scoop, and I usually have good google-fu.
To me, the whole thing sounded like Burke and Zezel must have had words at some point . . . that before Zezel asked for the east coast trade, there must have been some personal disagreement or Burke had a grudge with him over something Zezel had done. Doesn't make too much sense, otherwise, unless you want to paint Burke as a heartless turd, which I don't think he is. It also could have been a dumb mistake, who knows.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 11:30:14
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Don't really see how you can say that Matt. So what if Burke warns him? It's all to do with the money they offer him. I don't see how warning another GM changes things. Burke still woulda freaked out at what Lowe did regardless of a warning. It's every GM's job to know that any of their RFA's could be signed to an offer sheet by one of the other 29 GMs. THAT, is their "warning". There's no need to make the phone call and tell someone. I believe it all has to do with the amount offered an RFA.
BTW, someone warns me they're gonna sleep with my woman and then does (after i warn them not to of course), is subject to a severe beat down!!!  |
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Burke and Kessel? 
