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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2007 :  16:43:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4739

Oh, and willus3, your statement: "Today I would wager more people would prefer to watch Orr than Gretzky." This is still contingent on your elusive answer about whether or not Bobby could beat the new trap and systems which severely limit the mobility of defensemen.

(I apologize if by not having access to watching number 4 live I missed witnessing the unfurling of some invisible cape or rocket from his nether regions which could somehow mystically propel him over a four-man smothering in the neutral zone.)


No you're probably right. Nothing can penetrate the forcefield that is the trap.

You must be one of those young guys that thinks the game has changed so much it is essentially a different game and that the old timers wouldn't be able to adapt.

Have you ever seen Orr play in a game?

"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2007 :  19:24:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest, you better step back and take a look at some previous posts before you start the c'mon Beans stuff. Gretzky was a barely above average skater. That's the truth! Pull up the game tape, get the you tube. Find me something that shows WG beat a guy with his skating. The majority of the time he beat the guy because he was behind him already.

And this "interview" spoken of regarding Gretzky's great first two strides, I'd love to see it. Where can I find it?? Because I personally think that's a pile. As possibly this sites biggest Gretzky Fan, I can say with all honesty, he was not a great skater. Not poor, but not great. Anyone over the age of 30 disagree with that??? And I ask that because if you aren't at least 30, you never seen Gretzky in his prime.

And I have to agree with Willus on this. Not only do I think you've never seen Orr play, but I doubt you have put in the effort to learn much about him either. If you did, you could see that if Gretzky and Orr played at the same time, they would be pretty close to each other in many ways. One for certain is marketability.

Prove me wrong?? Bring an arguement with reason what would make Gretzky so much more marketable than Orr.

Please, I'd love to hear it.

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2007 :  19:45:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4739

The original question re: the draft was: "What if there were a draft of the best players in the history of the NHL in their prime (excluding goalies for whom there would be a separate draft). What if you had first pick in this draft. Who would you pick?"

Addressing the original question, if there was a draft with Gretzky, Messier and Orr all up for grabs - and I'm assuming they'll all be playing in the league similtaneously, not in a "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"-type fashion, I still choose Gretzky. In any age, and with whatever skating ability (c'mon Beans...) Gretzky would have the higher profile, be more marketable, and overall bring more cash to a team.



4739 - I wasn't considering the profile/marketability question when I framed that question above. To me that just adds an unnecessary complication to what I believe is already a sufficiently challenging question.

I didn't exactly mean this at the time, but just for fun I'll throw it out there now. What if this question is defined further along these lines

- it's like you're having a ball hockey game with your buddies, but for deciding the teams, instead of doing the politically correct "throw your sticks in the middle" random method of choosing players, you just do a coin toss, one team gets the first pick, and then you have a draft.

- everything is adjusted to today's game - so all players bring the physical and mental strengths which we know of about them from the respective eras they played in, BUT we imagine how they would be now if they were all born in 1987 like Sid

- there are forty GOAT players there (and you deal with the goalies separately). So Gretz is there, Orr, Hull, Doug Harvey, the Rocket, Gordie, Jean Beliveau, Andyhack, Mario, Mess, Ray, Mikita, Espo, Trotts, Guy, and so on.

Okay, okay, you're right. One of the guys above doesn't quite fit in. I too wonder if Ray makes the cut!

- lets say of the 40 players, 9 are centres, 9 are left wingers, 9 are right wingers, and 13 are defencemen.

Your team wins the coin toss and you have first pick. Who do you pick?

Wayne, Bobby or Andyhack?



Edited by - andyhack on 11/21/2007 19:47:56
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Guest5520
( )

Posted - 11/21/2007 :  20:35:21  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Guest, you better step back and take a look at some previous posts before you start the c'mon Beans stuff. Gretzky was a barely above average skater. That's the truth! Pull up the game tape, get the you tube. Find me something that shows WG beat a guy with his skating. The majority of the time he beat the guy because he was behind him already.

And this "interview" spoken of regarding Gretzky's great first two strides, I'd love to see it. Where can I find it?? Because I personally think that's a pile. As possibly this sites biggest Gretzky Fan, I can say with all honesty, he was not a great skater. Not poor, but not great. Anyone over the age of 30 disagree with that??? And I ask that because if you aren't at least 30, you never seen Gretzky in his prime.

And I have to agree with Willus on this. Not only do I think you've never seen Orr play, but I doubt you have put in the effort to learn much about him either. If you did, you could see that if Gretzky and Orr played at the same time, they would be pretty close to each other in many ways. One for certain is marketability.

Prove me wrong?? Bring an arguement with reason what would make Gretzky so much more marketable than Orr.

Please, I'd love to hear it.

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!


Bean you maay claim to be the greatest Gretzky fan on this site but all I see is your stats machine. I am 30 and lived in Calgary when there was a real battle of Alberta. My hockey night in Canada night's and trips to saddledome included many oilers's matchups. I watched the interview on hockey night in canada. Made not mention of a great to strides, I am not claiming Gretzky greatest person to lace his skate. You claim he was an average skater. Greatest offensive player in the game with great positioning skill an 'average skater', maybe your tapes dont show the 80's.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  07:45:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest, with all due respect, you are totally off your rocker. I do have tons of Oiler games from the 80's on tape. Somewhere around 75 from before 1990, and most of those have Gretzky. This doesn't include my memories of Gretzky, as I am your age and grew up in a small town just outside of Edmonton.

And before you start telling me what I don't know, answer me this. In those HNIC games and trips to the Saddledome, was there ever a night where WG was the best "skater" on the ice?? I could promise you not. Kurri, Anderson, and Coffey alone made Gretzky look weak skating.

He was never the best skater on the ice. Not the worst by far, but not the best. Does that not make him average??

Check this out. 6 1/2 minutes of Gretzky "highlights" from youtube. How many times do you see Gretzky outskate a guy?? Not fake him out with a stick move and go around him when he is falling down. Not being on a break away. I mean the guy was in front of Gretzky, and Gretzky gets behind him because of skating.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFX0dVXNDXw

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!

Edited by - Beans15 on 11/22/2007 09:05:26
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Guest4739
( )

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  08:27:22  Reply with Quote
I believe the ability to perform a "stick move" while travelling on blades is classified as skating. So is the ability to do the patented Gretzky buttonhook just inside the blueline, to dance around bodychecks, and to embarass goalies and d-men with clever pivot moves.

Sounds like above average skating to me, minus the blinding Todd Marchant-type speed Beans seems to think defines a great "skater." (Yes, Gretzky could have been a wonderful checking line centre if he just had that extra burst of gas...)
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  09:10:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest, you are really starting to get to me. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you have to be fast to be a good skater. Never said that at all. So, I would appreciate that if you were to quote me, do it with things I actually say.

Secondly, a stick move is not skating?? How is that skating?? It's a stick move?? That's part of stick handling isn't it?? Dale Hawerchuk was a great stick handler. But did you know the guy could hardly skate backwards?? A stick move on skates does not mean that a guy can skate.

And all I said was he was an average skater.

Are you saying he was an amazing skater??

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  10:08:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Guest, you are really starting to get to me.

And all I said was he was an average skater.

Are you saying he was an amazing skater??




Well, I'm just a potato eater but I'm gonna go with somewhere in between average and amazing. How about "above average but not amazing"?

Probably closer to "average" than "amazing" though.

I have to chuckle a bit when Beans and other big Gretzky fans find themselves quibbling with some of the, for lack of a better term, "far right" Gretzky camp members. I know this guy from Toronto who happens to be a big Boston fan, and I believe when he first joined this site he said in his first few posts something like, "Don't mess with Gretzky guys - they take Gretzky's SUPREME greatness VERY seriously, and any comment on Wayne WHATSOEVER short of "HE IS GOD" makes them as FURIOUS as Bill Clinton at a brothel that is completely booked up for the night." Well, maybe not those exact words, but that was the message.

Beans, is the point of that not so young Torontonian right hander registering a little more these days?

Edited by - andyhack on 11/22/2007 10:10:00
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Guest4739
( )

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  11:51:24  Reply with Quote
To quote you Beans: "Gretzky wasn't the strongest skater out there. He did enough to get him by, but he rarely beat a guy with speed or manouvering. He beat them by being in the right place at the right time."

Now, this being in the right place at the right time... are you going to explain it as a mystical quality Gretzky had, a second-sense, an uncanny knack? Or as the objective student of the game, are you willing to explain how he consisiently beat people to loose pucks, escaped contact, and darted through the opposition? Surely he didn't get all those points - and goals - by shooting through legs, exploiting complete lapses in coverage, or apperearing randomly in lucky areas.

He had the anticipation, yes - but also the speed and deftness of feet to get where he needed to be.
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Guest2918
( )

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  11:53:40  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Guest, you are really starting to get to me. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you have to be fast to be a good skater. Never said that at all. So, I would appreciate that if you were to quote me, do it with things I actually say.

Secondly, a stick move is not skating?? How is that skating?? It's a stick move?? That's part of stick handling isn't it?? Dale Hawerchuk was a great stick handler. But did you know the guy could hardly skate backwards?? A stick move on skates does not mean that a guy can skate.

And all I said was he was an average skater.

Are you saying he was an amazing skater??

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!


Hey beans,

Wanted you to know you have several people responding to your evaluation of gretzky's skills as a skater. I have only made a few reply's. I did watch the tribute on youtube you refered to. Remember this is only a tribute. I see a great passer, a great forhand shot, a great slap shot, great give and go plays, a few great breakaways. Mostly I seen a lot of full speed gretzky play's where he turned the goaltender and defenseman inside out by stopping short or deking out defender and goalie. Last time I checked deking was a skill of a great skater. No!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  12:21:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you ask knowledgeable hockey people to give you a list of some great skaters Gretzky's name doesn't come up.
He was an average skater at best. The best part of his skating was his maneuverability. He was shifty. Other than that there was nothing about his skating that was above average. He was neither fast nor smooth. To me he appeared like he was going to tip over, like his feet were about to go out from under him.
Here are some great skaters:
Cournoyer
Lafleur
Lemaire
Perreault
Coffey
Fedorov
Niedermayer
Savard

In the skating department Gretzky doesn't come close to any of these guys.

"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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Guest4739
( )

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  14:04:27  Reply with Quote
So if some GREAT skaters are Cournoyer, Lafleur, Lemaire, Perreault, Coffey, Fedorov, Niedermayer, Savard (you left off Gartner, Courtnall, etc...) and Gretzky fits in as merely AVERAGE, you must have a pretty interesting and exhaustive list of GOOD skaters.

And re your comment about him appearing as though he would tip over. With eyesight like that, you'd make a great referee nowadays willus...
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2007 :  14:31:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4739

So if some GREAT skaters are Cournoyer, Lafleur, Lemaire, Perreault, Coffey, Fedorov, Niedermayer, Savard (you left off Gartner, Courtnall, etc...) and Gretzky fits in as merely AVERAGE, you must have a pretty interesting and exhaustive list of GOOD skaters.

And re your comment about him appearing as though he would tip over. With eyesight like that, you'd make a great referee nowadays willus...



Not sure what you're getting at in either one of your statements here.

You want an example of a "good" skater? Chelios. Do you think Gretzky is as good a skater as Chelios?

Can you clarify what you're trying to say in your second statement?


"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2007 :  11:53:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4739

To quote you Beans: "Gretzky wasn't the strongest skater out there. He did enough to get him by, but he rarely beat a guy with speed or manouvering. He beat them by being in the right place at the right time."

Now, this being in the right place at the right time... are you going to explain it as a mystical quality Gretzky had, a second-sense, an uncanny knack? Or as the objective student of the game, are you willing to explain how he consisiently beat people to loose pucks, escaped contact, and darted through the opposition? Surely he didn't get all those points - and goals - by shooting through legs, exploiting complete lapses in coverage, or apperearing randomly in lucky areas.

He had the anticipation, yes - but also the speed and deftness of feet to get where he needed to be.




Firstly, I stand by my statement. Gretzky was not the strongest staker out there. Never was. And you are right, he did consistantly get loose pucks and beat defenders and goaltenders, but not with skating. He didn't have to be the best skater on the ice to be in the right place at the right time. That being said, that is the opinion of most, including the likes of Gordie Howe, Mark Messier, and Bobby Orr to name a few. Regardless of whether you think Gretzky is the greatest player or not, the concensus agrees that his greatest ability was to read the game, or think the game if you will.

That was my point is this. He didn't beat people with skating abilities like Coffey, Orr, Savard, or Bure did. He was not one of the best skaters. I never said he was a hack. But on a list of Gretzky's greatest talents, skating is not anywhere near the top of the list.

Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
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Guest9477
( )

Posted - 11/23/2007 :  14:45:28  Reply with Quote
Leafs all da way baby sens are choking. Alfie aint doin s*** anymore and dey cant play where it counts...THE PLAYOFFS!!!! Orr and Gretzky obviously.... give orr the same amount of years as gretzky and orr was a defenceman.
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Guest6485
( )

Posted - 02/16/2008 :  07:39:26  Reply with Quote
Firstly, the year Gretzky lost Coffey and Lemiex got him, Lemieux became a better scorer, and he didn't have an equivalent to Kurri yet. Also, if you consider Lemieux's prime took place in a lower-scoring era, his stats look a whole lot better. I do not believe staying healthy makes you a good player, though it admittedly helps you put up pretty stats (Though it usually dulls averages). I think the best hockey player is the best at playing hockey, not who put together the best career. Secondly once Lemieux got into his prime, more or less, which is, let's say 1988 (When Gretzky was still 26, 27, 28 which is hardly a declining point considering his relatively good health), Gretzky never made the first all-star team during a year when Lemieux played a fair amount of games.

Now in answer to the Orr vs. Gretzky and that somewhat ignorant argument: Why are all the highest scorers from the post-Orr
era? Well, the talent discrepancy between the best and the worst had grown such, since the expansion diluted talent, players like Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux had their scoring totals bolstered due to the highest scoring era. Gretzky's "glory years" such as his 200 point seasons, were during VERY high-scoring times. lemieux and Orr had it easier than Howe or Richard, but not as easy as Gretzky had it. Not to mention, there were more games a season post-expansion, and the 6 teams were so familiar with each other, it depressed almost any sort of surprise elements they would have had, making scoring even lower. Those last two things are minor points in my argument that I just threw in as suggestions, so if you are one of those that nitpick small points spare me.

I am not saying Gretzky isn't the greatest, but it's easy to argue otherwise.
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Smali101
Top Prospect



Canada
2 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2008 :  11:01:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No qustion Gretzky is the best, but I will never compare.

<<<<GO PENS GO>>>>
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Guest4912
( )

Posted - 02/20/2008 :  10:22:14  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans I was just wondering were you grew up because i grew up in a small town a hour away from edmonton, Evansburg Alberta
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro



499 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2008 :  10:32:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is completely off the topic but if you think the Leafs are gonna make the playoffs, you are dreaming.


quote:
Originally posted by Guest9477

Leafs all da way baby sens are choking. Alfie aint doin s*** anymore and dey cant play where it counts...THE PLAYOFFS!!!! Orr and Gretzky obviously.... give orr the same amount of years as gretzky and orr was a defenceman.



"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2008 :  15:23:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4912

Hey Beans I was just wondering were you grew up because i grew up in a small town a hour away from edmonton, Evansburg Alberta




I grew up in Redwater. I was northeast of Edmonton while you were straight west.

I spent a little time in Evansburg playing basketball and volleyball in high school, which was 93-96.

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Guest5579
( )

Posted - 03/09/2008 :  14:25:17  Reply with Quote
Ok I have given this a lot of thought ..... I have also lived long enough to see Howe, Gretsky and Orr play and I can honestly say with 100 percent confidence who the greatest is.

I believe those who pick Gretsky are overly influenced by statistics...Certainly Gretsky scored lots of goals and knew the angles of hockey like no other player in history. Gretsky played in an era when lots of goals were scored and he scored them in bunches.....Ok - if you define hockey by the one dimensional view of who has the most points then Grestsky is your man....

But Hockey is far far more then Goals and assists. If you define the Greatest as the man who could play two way hockey and who PER GAME had the best plus/minus while on the Ice then HANDS DOWN it is Bobby Orr. He blows Wayne Grestsky away in being on the ice when his team scores more goals then opponenents.....This is an overlooked stat and should be a much more accurate indicator of greatness....As a defenseman he DOMINATED. His end to end rushes and stick handling skills are legendary. His acceleration and moves could deke opponents out of their jock strap. If you google You Tube and watch archival footage you become mesmerised with his skill.... Eight straight Norris Trophies are hard to argue against......Bobby Orr also gets the Nod from the Majority of players and coaches at Toronto's Hockey Hall of Fame (go there sometime - it is a Hockey education).....

I would put Bobby Orr ahead of the Great One because of his awesome 2 way play....But still cannot bring myself to call Orr the Greatest...Most Talented for an eight year period - YES....But not the Greatest...If Bobby had played another 5 years ....maybe...but he didn't.

The Greatest player I ever saw over an entire career was Gordie Howe. Those who say otherwise just never saw Mr Hockey play.
For Ruggedness, toughness, killing penalties, scoring goals, razor sharp pass's and laser like wrist shots Gordie was the best. Most people can't remember but the early part of Gordies career, they only gave credit for one assist (Unlike in Waynes day when they gave credit for two).... Also - Gordie never had to rely on others to do his fighting for him..He was the toughest player who ever lived ..and that includes any goon you can think of. He had arms like popeye and most of his career he played with a flat bladed stick and WAS AMBIDEXTRIOUS, which meant he could shoot with equal skill left OR right handed....an enormous advantage.

I used to go down to the Old Olympia stadium in Detroit as a kid to watch Number 9 play and I recall one play that sums up Gordie Howe....It was the Mid sixties and the Toronto Maple Leafs were a power. Gordie Howe dug a puck out of the corner at his own end and started up Ice....He caromed the puck off the boards around Bob Pulford and caught his own pass....next he deked out another Toronto player and with Tim Horton draped all over Gordie and trying to bring him down, Gordie got off a shot and scored with one hand !!!!!!! The scoring sequence required amazing stick handling and over powering brute strength ... the kind of which the ignorant who would place Wayne Gretsky as # one have not seen....It was vintage Howe but he often made the amazing seem ordinary..

They did not call him Mr Hockey for nothing...Gordie Howe...Greatest of all time ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2008 :  16:39:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Guest5579[/i]
[br]....Most people can't remember but the early part of Gordies career, they only gave credit for one assist (Unlike in Waynes day when they gave credit for two)....


Hey Guest 5579, thanks fo rhte insight! You really should become a member, we can use some thoughts of the game from someone who has actually witnessed some of the old timers. Invaluable!!!

Do you recall when the NHL made the switch to two assists from one? We had another thread going and I was trying to find out what year that was. Any info you have would be great. Here is the thread by the way...http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3563
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2008 :  20:55:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting post Guest 5579. If you had to name a few players since Howe who kind of reminded you of him, who would you name (guys who you would say, if not totally like him, were at least versions of him)?

I saw him live a couple of times in the mid '70s when he was in the WHA and actually he was still out-muscling (and occasionally elbowing) guys then. I would have loved to have seen him like you did though.

I was just looking at his stats now, and though I am NOT a stats guy, even by modern day standards, his 20 plus seasons from 1949-1950 to 1970-1971 are impressive, and of course become even moreso when you consider the era and defensive style of play at the time. But, from everything I read about him I gather that he was the type of player who could have games with no goals and no assists and still often be the best player on the ice (even better than some teammate who perhaps had a huge night pointwise).

Edited by - andyhack on 03/11/2008 20:58:24
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rross
Top Prospect



Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2008 :  09:19:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess the question needs to be repeated for those who don't understand the question. The question was "who is the greatest hockey player ever". Not who was the best skater, or best stickhandler etc. Someone mentioned Iginla, Smyth and the Sedins...are you for real!!!!! There is only one answer and that is Gretzky. Based on everything that has already been mentioned so I won't repaet it. But you have to take into account every facet of the game to determine who the best is and Gretzky just happens to come out on top at the end of the day.

Go Habs Go!!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2008 :  10:21:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rross

I guess the question needs to be repeated for those who don't understand the question. The question was "who is the greatest hockey player ever". Not who was the best skater, or best stickhandler etc. Someone mentioned Iginla, Smyth and the Sedins...are you for real!!!!! There is only one answer and that is Gretzky. Based on everything that has already been mentioned so I won't repaet it. But you have to take into account every facet of the game to determine who the best is and Gretzky just happens to come out on top at the end of the day.

Go Habs Go!!



You may want to rephrase that statement. Gretzky was not even close to the best at every facet of the game.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  07:21:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rross and other guys who say things like, "there is only one answer to this poll" -

Put yourselves in the shoes of a guy like Guest 5579 who actually saw Gordie Howe play in his prime, and of course saw Wayne too (by the way, I think this Guest could actually be a pretty special resource of info on this site).

Whether you agree with the Guest or not, keep in mind that when you say things like that, you are not only telling him,

"in my opinion, I think Wayne was better",

but you are saying,

"I don't care what you saw in the '50s when Gordie was in his prime, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY he was better than Wayne".

To me, that, at the very least, borders on arrogance.
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Guest6452
( )

Posted - 05/06/2008 :  09:27:05  Reply with Quote
bobby orr rules, but to me i think that gretzky could beat him and he has the most rocords. still i vote bobby orr.(the best offense is a good defense)
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Guest7100
( )

Posted - 07/21/2008 :  12:50:14  Reply with Quote
hard to compare a forward to a defenseman but without a doubt ORR has to be considered the greatest player ever. Why? Because the game changed because of him. Gretky was great, but also look at his teammates. It was a team of great players. Orr had esposito and a couple other stars but thats it.
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Open_Ice
Rookie



Canada
109 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2008 :  14:07:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretz for sure... how is he only winning by 4 votes at this point in time
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2008 :  15:09:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Open_Ice

Gretz for sure... how is he only winning by 4 votes at this point in time


Wow, I haven't looked at this thread for a long time.
It appears that there are some educated voters out there.
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Bozy
Top Prospect



Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2008 :  07:48:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why is Messier only have 1% . He was one of the best leaders all time,he was all around good and he was third all time in points . How is Wayne the best when he wasnt as good as a leader or all aroud good . Steve Yzerman should be up there.
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baimerr
Top Prospect



USA
65 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2008 :  09:25:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know "other" would be to vote for Yzerman (who I don't think would be the best) but it'd be nice to see his name rather than having to choose other for those who do believe he was. He was the greatest captain to ever play =]

Edited by - baimerr on 08/21/2008 09:27:03
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Guest4131
( )

Posted - 08/21/2008 :  19:52:38  Reply with Quote
Gordie Howe Hands Down . 6 Art Ross, 6 Heart Memorial and 4 Stanley Cups . 2nd Most Points and 1st Most Games . He was the best all around player thats why he invented the Gordie Howe hat trick which is a fight,goal and assist in one game .

Howe didnt play with the dream team Oilers who had a stacked team . Nor did he play when theres was much more goal scoring . Also Im pretty sure Howe played through a very rough era when the didnt where helments or as much equipment .

But this is coming from a 13 year old so I was even alive then .
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Bozy
Top Prospect



Canada
33 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2008 :  19:55:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That was my post above . (the one about Gordie Howe)
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
601 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2008 :  06:54:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The thing is casting a vote for one player doesn't discredit the people who weren't voted for. Messier only getting %1 is only indicative of the level of competition he is facing in a "All Time" debate.
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Guest9409
( )

Posted - 11/16/2008 :  23:43:53  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

1) Orr
2) Lemieux
3) Howe
4) Messier
5) Beliveau
6) Doug Harvey
7) Denis Potvin
8) Gretzky

Joe Sakic will eventually be there somewhere. He is a joy to watch.
I look for complete players. The top 7 are great complete players. They could do everything. And they did it very well. In fact they did it exceptionally well.

Longevity is hardly a way to measure greatness. It just allows a player to accumulate more records, cups, awards etc..
But any player can have their career cut short by an injury. Even with the advances in modern medicine an injury can take a player out permanently.
Look at Pavel Bure. If a player came along and scored 300 points a season but only played for two seasons would he not be recognized as great.
It doesn't take 20 years to see how talented they are.

How many cups did Wayne win after he left the Oilers dynasty? Umm... oh yeah, none.
But the number of cups you win is not very relevant either. There are average players who happened to play for the Montreal Canadians who have 5 or 6 cups. Then there a great players like Ray Bourque who only have 1 (some have none) and that was only because he was traded to a contender late in his career.





______________

I thought you were bright until I read this drivel.

If you are going to be a Gretzky-hater to try and show you are a rebel, fine. But if you are going to say Gretz isn't top 5, at least be bright enough to get Bobby Hull in there.

You are not just a blow-hard. You're a blowhard with an exceptionally low level of hockey-knowledge.

Next.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2008 :  10:53:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a rebel because I don't consider Gretzky the best? Fantastic.
In actual fact I remember posting this intending on getting a rise out of someone. It worked at the time and it apparently worked now too.

In reality my top three are the same and Gretzky is 4th on my list.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2008 :  14:00:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

I'm a rebel because I don't consider Gretzky the best? Fantastic.
In actual fact I remember posting this intending on getting a rise out of someone. It worked at the time and it apparently worked now too.

In reality my top three are the same and Gretzky is 4th on my list.



Because I am not incredibly interested in many other topics on here, I'd like to throw a question out to Willus.

Why is Lemiuex your #2?? What did his game have that was better than Gretzky or Howe for that matter??

Just for my own morbid curiousity. And although I don't think you are a blowhard as the guest seems to think, I do think you have an unhealthy hate-on for WG.
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Guest5447
( )

Posted - 11/17/2008 :  20:17:24  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Why is Lemieux your #2?? What did his game have that was better than Gretzky or Howe for that matter??

Just for my own morbid curiousity. And although I don't think you are a blowhard as the guest seems to think, I do think you have an unhealthy hate-on for WG.


I'll hinder a guess. Is it because WG doesn't really look like a hockey player? He's got none of the physical attributes of those named in the top 4. He skates awkward. He doesn't appear to do anything special or look all that threatening. My guess is probably why he has the same hate on for Lidstrom as one of the greatest defender of all time.

Well remember the 1st couple of MMA fight? Who won it? Royce Gracie. He didn't look like a fighter. He was awkward looking. Not very muscular. Didn't look all that threatening. Then BAM!! his opponents submits.

I wonder if Willus would ever consider Gracie as the greatest MMA fighter of all time? I'm guessing no.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2008 :  09:52:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5447

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Why is Lemieux your #2?? What did his game have that was better than Gretzky or Howe for that matter??

Just for my own morbid curiousity. And although I don't think you are a blowhard as the guest seems to think, I do think you have an unhealthy hate-on for WG.


I'll hinder a guess. Is it because WG doesn't really look like a hockey player? He's got none of the physical attributes of those named in the top 4. He skates awkward. He doesn't appear to do anything special or look all that threatening. My guess is probably why he has the same hate on for Lidstrom as one of the greatest defender of all time.

Well remember the 1st couple of MMA fight? Who won it? Royce Gracie. He didn't look like a fighter. He was awkward looking. Not very muscular. Didn't look all that threatening. Then BAM!! his opponents submits.

I wonder if Willus would ever consider Gracie as the greatest MMA fighter of all time? I'm guessing no.




Interesting point as I know that Willus does not consider Lidstrom as one of the top 5 d-men all time. But neither do I.

And I think your point of Gretzky not being physical gifted and appeared akward is a point to his greatness, not against it. That is one of my reasons for Gretzky being #1. The fact that he was not fast, strong, a great skater, had a killer shot, or had any of the other physical abilities that other "GOATS" had. So how did he go on to be the most productive offensive player in history when couldn't shoot, skate, or hit like the others???


Hmmmm...............
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